Mayan Fortune emails me "We miss you!" but after WD they don't know me???

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
I been having a little run a good luck and I been waiting to see which casino I been playing at for a long time, whose VIP manager sends me "we miss you" emails if I don't deposit there one week, where I cashed out - for the first time EVER - and, on my own, I email them my ID, my credit card images and somethng I got in the mail with my address on it. The day AFTER I email my docs, I get and email from their Faxback email address, acting like I didn't send nothing the day before. SO i send them a forwarded email of the one from the day before AND the want copies of crediit cards I used to deposit in their casino 10 MONTHS AGO!! That I since HAD LOST AND REPLACED WITH NEW CREDIT CARDS!! TWO lost credit cards they wanted now. Now that I requested a WD!!

But that's OK cuz I had em saved on my hard drive so off they went! My WD request, by the way, was for a QuickTender WD. So everything's hunky dory, right? Who said "NO!" Ahhh...another lucky Mayan Fortune winner, I'll bet. By the way, I hit the Major Moolah JP yesterday at Sloto'Cash Casino and Antoine was bustin' his ASS to contact me to pay me the whole amount - $14K+ -and I never sent them and they never asked me for DICK - ID wise! Even though it's in their T&C. So WHAT? Who gives a shit where I live with QuickTender?

Mayan Fortune sends THIS:

Re: RE: Mayan Fortune withdrawal request received (Issue #633730)?
From: Mayan Fortune Faxbacks (faxback@mayanfortune.com)
Sent: Tue 6/02/09 10:25 AM
To: bernynhel@(details removed by bernynhel)

Dear (details removed by bernynhel),

Regarding your security documents.We have received your documents however the Bill is required to have a date showing Also the address registered on the account is different and if any official documentation showing the current residence is received we can update this.

Thank you for understanding. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Sincerely,

Mayan Fortune Customer Service


I cashed out $2k at this joint and I never email them and say "Where's my money?!", NUTHIN! And 'cept for a bot generated withdrawal confirmation nothng from them what-so-ever! No "congrats on your winnings" no "why doncha go jump inna lake" - NO-THING!

Now, in the above email, did you read anything that says they have any reason at all why I'm not paid yet? Anything about how I WONT get my MONEY UNLESS I PROVIDE THEM WITH SUCH AND SUCH?

I didn't EITHER, BUT I wrote them this reply ANYWAY just because I recognize the TONE!:

RE: Mayan Fortune withdrawal request received (details removed by bernynhel)?
From: bernynhel's - (details removed by bernynhel)(bernynhel@(details removed by bernynhel))
Sent: Tue 6/02/09 10:55 AM
To: faxback@mayanfortune.com

I live at (details removed by bernynhel) usa. I used to live at (details removed by bernynhel), usa. My telephone number is still (details removed by bernynhel). You just received scanned images of credit cards that are no longer active, but with which I deposited at Mayan Fortune nearly a year ago. The images of those credit cards should have been requested long before now. Since I just moved my residence, my ID with current address has not arrived.

Since I requested my withdrawal, I have never contacted support or anyone else at MFC for the purpose of inquiring as to when I will be paid my winnings. For nearly a year, you haven't concerned yourselves with who was depositing in to my account at Mayan Fortune Casino. And don't bother replying to this email with any quotes from you t&c's. I know what they say. My withdrawal request is QT. Nothing you are requesting is meant to verify anything any better than it's already been verified. If you insist on waiting for the documentation as it is defined in your t&c before you pay me, fine. I won the Major Moolah jp last night and Sloto'Cash already paid me - in full - without all of your BS. Take as long as you wish but from now on we will exchange correspondence here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/winner-screenshots.4193/

I'll forward the documents you have requested asap and, unless you say otherwise, I will assume you intend to withhold my withdrawal until you have received them.

Signed,

bernynhel




And LEST you think I was being PARANOID, you're RIGHT cuz then I got THIS!:

Re: RE: Mayan Fortune withdrawal request received ((details removed by bernynhel)?
From: Mayan Fortune Faxbacks (faxback@mayanfortune.com)
Sent: Tue 6/02/09 9:33 PM
To: bernynhel@(details removed by bernynhel)

Dear(details removed by bernynhel),

Following up on your email. We will indeed still require you to send in a bill or bank statement that is not older than 2 months, in order to verify your address.The document can be any official document you receive in the mail, however there should be a date on it to show that it is not more than 2 months old. Once the document has been received and reviewed, your withdrawal will be processed.

Thank you for understanding. If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to contact us again.

Sincerely,

Don (O now its got a name!)

Mayan Fortune Customer Service


Ah ha! Didn't have the BALLS to say, "if we don't get a recent utility bill with your current address and dated, we're not paying you!" I had to say it FOR him! What a bunch of PUSSIES!

Following is 1 of 4 pages of emails I been getting from these (expletive deletive removed by bernynhel)S , 118 in all, going back to July of 2008 but they can't pay me through the QuickTender account I've been depositing there with for nearly a year until they see a recently dated utility bill with my new address printed on it because they must verify my address? HORSESHIT!
 
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UKDafoe

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 5, 2005
Location
US/UK
Par for the course. They aren't really acting any differently from the majority of other casinos. It's annoying, but that's internet gambling for you.
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
Thanks. I'm not busting a grape over it or nuthin'. It's just that they could of just asked, "Hey, bout that $2k we owe you....mind if we pay you that a week from Tuesday?" Or, "May we credit your winnings to your QuickTender account: a. in 7 days or b. at the conclusion of the 13.48th business day counting from Midnight the day before yesterday or c. the first chance we get?" To which I would just said, "Sure. No problem. Make it July 1, if that'll help!" That's how well I thought I knew them! A**holes!

I haven't been at my new address two weeks yet. Maybe I'll forward, those DHs, Mayan Fortune - that's RIGHT...DH's!!! I said it!! WHAT?! - the confirmation email the US Postal Service sends to confirm they've got your Change of Address that they only will accept if they can charge $1 to your credit card, whatever the f that's sposed to prove! Think Mayan Fortune will pay me then??

And after a day or so and I didn't see the reversible withdrawals anymore in the cashier area I deposited $200! Someone just KICK ME! I'm not sending them shit! Here's the rest of the list of emails they've sent me for the last year - a big bunch of em deposit confirmations - WHO DID YOU NO-PAYIN-DICK-ME-AROUND-OVER-THIS-OR-THAT-LIL-BULLSHIT-LIKE-I'M-SOME-KIND-OF-A-CHUMP-MFrs THINK WAS MAKING THESE DEPOSITS?? - from my search for "Mayan Fortune" in my email:
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
This email just in:

Security Documents Accepted?
From: Mayan Fortune Faxbacks (faxback@mayanfortune.com)
Sent: Fri 6/05/09 8:21 AM
To: bernynhel@(detail deleted by bernynhel)

Dear William,

Thank you for sending in the requested documentation. It has been accepted. If you have pending cashouts, they will be processed shortly.

Member Services

Mayan Fortune Casino


I just checked my history at Mayan Fortune :both $1,000 WD's are "PROCESSING" and there's a $50 - VIP Rewards Free Chip (No max cash out) in my promotions box!

So what's happened since my last post? It turns out that my mom replied to all of the Silverstone-Overseas-Ltd-owned Rival casino promotional emails she received in the last few days by demanding she be removed from their email lists until I was paid the money Mayan Fortune owed me! lol

Thanks Mom! Thanks CM! And THANK-YOU Mayan Fortune/Silverstone Overseas Ltd for at least having the wisdom to know what side your bread is buttered on!
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This email just in:

Security Documents Accepted?
From: Mayan Fortune Faxbacks (faxback@mayanfortune.com)
Sent: Fri 6/05/09 8:21 AM
To: bernynhel@(detail deleted by bernynhel)

Dear William,

Thank you for sending in the requested documentation. It has been accepted. If you have pending cashouts, they will be processed shortly.

Member Services

Mayan Fortune Casino


I just checked my history at Mayan Fortune :both $1,000 WD's are "PROCESSING" and there's a $50 - VIP Rewards Free Chip (No max cash out) in my promotions box!

So what's happened since my last post? It turns out that my mom replied to all of the Silverstone-Overseas-Ltd-owned Rival casino promotional emails she received in the last few days by demanding she be removed from their email lists until I was paid the money Mayan Fortune owed me! lol

Thanks Mom! Thanks CM! And THANK-YOU Mayan Fortune/Silverstone Overseas Ltd for at least having the wisdom to know what side your bread is buttered on!

So, prevention of money laundering was not so important to them when they see players are getting scared off by tales of "jerking around" over ID documents.
This makes me think they are going beyond what is necessary to actually prove player's ID, and may have an ulterior motive, such as the much suggested one of hoping the stalling makes the player play their money back rather than persist with the withdrawal.

Teaches PLAYERS something though - BOYCOTTS WORK:D
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
So, prevention of money laundering was not so important to them when they see players are getting scared off by tales of "jerking around" over ID documents.
This makes me think they are going beyond what is necessary to actually prove player's ID, and may have an ulterior motive, such as the much suggested one of hoping the stalling makes the player play their money back rather than persist with the withdrawal.

Teaches PLAYERS something though - BOYCOTTS WORK:D

While I agree with you about boycotts, in general, in this case the WDs were not available in the cashier for reversing after 24 hours. So I didn't think their motive was to get me to play back the winnings, necessarily, though I could have requested reversals by other means. I was just pissed off cuz after nearly a year, they acted like they didn't know me and were nit-picking me while holding my money.

And their last email is a little misleading with the subject: "Security documents accepted?" and the repeat of : "Thank you for sending in the requested documentation." I have not sent them anything or otherwise communicated with them in any way since my last email in my first post until I replied with "thanks" to their "acceptance" email in my last post. Not even a reply to their last email, demanding the additional docs, which is at the bottom of the first post. So their decision to TCB was based on their own internal discussions which might have been influenced by my last email, alone, reading this thread, being snubbed by my mom, other, unknown pressure, or a combination of all of the above.
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
While I agree with you about boycotts, in general, in this case the WDs were not available in the cashier for reversing after 24 hours. So I didn't think their motive was to get me to play back the winnings, necessarily, though I could have requested reversals by other means. I was just pissed off cuz after nearly a year, they acted like they didn't know me and were nit-picking me while holding my money.

And their last email is a little misleading with the subject: "Security documents accepted?" and the repeat of : "Thank you for sending in the requested documentation." I have not sent them anything or otherwise communicated with them in any way since my last email in my first post until I replied with "thanks" to their "acceptance" email in my last post. Not even a reply to their last email, demanding the additional docs, which is at the bottom of the first post. So their decision to TCB was based on their own internal discussions which might have been influenced by my last email, alone, reading this thread, being snubbed by my mom, other, unknown pressure, or a combination of all of the above.

One thing too about Rival Casinos that I have always appreciated is the fact that they will let you "flush" your withdrawal up to their daily limits so it can't be reversed back and lost.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Flushing of withdrawals take a new meaning at the Rivals. They will gladly flush your withdrawals that are being processed back into your account even after the 24-hour pending period.
 

bb28

Meister Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2006
Location
US
Flushing of withdrawals take a new meaning at the Rivals. They will gladly flush your withdrawals that are being processed back into your account even after the 24-hour pending period.

I have to admit......;) that this is fact!
 

coxwel

Senior Member
PABnononaccred
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Location
germany
as i never had many sympathy with rival sofwtare i was glad to make my first cashout from a rival last week.. ;-)

i never made any deposit at any rival, only played the freechips as they offer quite alot of them, anyway i was registered with vegas regal and got regular free chips from them without having made a deposit ever, quite nice ;-).

i made the wagering on the last 15 free chip and cashed out the max 75 ;-( ;-)

the withdrawal took less than 1 week to my neteller and got flushed immediately after i asked in the chat, the livechat support was more than useless and in their opinion my withdrawal would come next week ;-)

i often had the impression they even dont look into my accouint just answer with quotations of their terms. like machines.. was quite disapponting as am reaalllly experienced in casinolivechat sessions ;-)


but heads up to nicolas the rep here:notworthy, he did quite good but first couldnt even locate my account :eek::rolleyes:


one day after i got my money i signed up superior casino, and surprise no single promo available for me, their welcome email was stating something different ;-)

i already read about the phenomena here and went to live chat.. they told me i would have several accounts at rival based casinos.. lol..

i asked but i have only one at superior right? yes but anyway our system detscted you.. you get the feeling like your kind of o fraudster..lol

then i asked if the reason maybe that i had cashout from a rival few days ago.. they answered not specific ;-) but left room for own imagination.. so her answer told everything ;-9


i thionk this tactic is kind of stupid anyway.. banning winners from nodeposit chips which would be more encouraged to make deposit than ever before..

it should be handled by any casino itself and not by the software imho..


cheers

coxwel
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Coxwel,


I dislike the feeling given by many of the Rivals. Gives an impression you are doing something seriously wrong while not giving you any bonuses. However, yours is a slightly different case as you stated you have never deposited and only took their free chips. You have already tried out the software and cashed out so imo you should at least make a couple of deposits to show you are not abusing their bonuses. That said, however, the Rival software is stupid because it cannot identify the true depositors from others. Once the system identifies you as a 'bonus abuser' no matter how much you deposit things will not change and many Rival will continue to exclude you from bonuses. I have made more than $10K in deposits , some without bonuses, at all Rivals yet Absolute Slots(cant remember the new name), TIV, Pantasia and a host of Rivals still brand me as a bonus abuser. It is up to individual casinos to offer me bonuses now.

I cannot understand how the system works. You are branded as a bonus abuser if you tried a couple of free chips and/or taking out match bonuses in one or two Rivals yet they are unable to detect that you had subsequently made many deposits across several Rival casinos.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Coxwell, Rival more than encourages us to try their new casinos with free chips.

Now, to my thinking, once you have won and made a cashout, most players would play again at that casino. But they give you such crappy offers, you would be a fool to play them, so you move on to another.

IMO, if you enjoy Rival games, play at Slotocash. They are stand alone on the Rival platform, the only Rival to have a policy of paying progressive wins in full, and don't seem to regard a player that cashes out as a player they would like to lose.

You don't say what time frame you played these offers at. That is a factor too in becoming bonus banned.

As a Canadian, I can no longer play at Rival, but I did take the SUB at a couple after losing on the free chips. But when I had my very first cashout at a Rival after a free chip, things went south everywhere except Slotocash.

They are not accredited here at CM, but there are few complaints, and if you have never had to PAB over a non-accredited casino, that option would be available to you under the one-strike rule. They do have a rep here on the forum, and I hope they join the CM ranks. It is my understanding that their lack of accreditation here has to date stemmed from their previous lack of interest in acquiring it.
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
as i never had many sympathy with rival software i was glad to make my first cash-out from a rival last week.. ;-)...i never made any deposit at any rival, only played the free chips as they offer quite a lot of them, anyway i was registered with Vegas regal and got regular free chips from them without having made a deposit ever, quite nice ;-)...

I started this thread, in the Casino Complaints section of the forum, to be about ME being pissed (That's M - E, MEMEMEMEMEMEMEMEME as in all about bernynhel. lol) at Mayan Fortune for treating me like a stranger after I requested $2k in cash-outs after depositing there for nearly a year. And all along, should I skip a week's depositing/playing there, the "We MISS you William!" emails from the VIP Manager would appear in my email, unfailingly.

After the cash-out request, all of a sudden, they required dated utility bills 2 mos old or less as the address on my Driver's License no longer agreed with my updated profile address, yada yada yada etc. Really dumb. Course not! I just moved and updated my profile. Yeah! The address on my Driver's License doesn't match my profile... Pay me! But I NEVER said "pay me", I just cashed out and sent them old credit card images they requested. Now. After they were closed accounts and haven't been active for a year. I never emailed, "When will I get paid?" Nuthn'! I just cashed out. Anyway...They came around real quick and put my money in QT. Everybody's happy - it was a couple-of-days-thing.

All Rival sites are not the same because of the various owners. Mayan Fortune and most of the Rival sites are owned by Silverstone Overseas Ltd.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


So many are very similar, policy-wise.

Sloto'Cash is not associated with any other Rival site, other than it uses the Rival platform and shares the Progressive JP responsibility They were frantic, chasing me down after I hit the Major Moolah JP last week cuz they wanted to pay me in one lump sum - their policy to waive the weekly max should someone hit a progressive JP at Sloto'Cash - And I didn't even know they were looking for me until Jasminebed hipped me to their JP policy. I don't remember ever sending them an ID or anything but my WD was QT so the money comes in from QT, nobody checks anything, so who cares where it goes if its going through the same QT account? Duh! Why I was so pissed at Mayan.

Simon Says is another Rival site separate from the rest.

...Once the system identifies you as a 'bonus abuser' no matter how much you deposit things will not change and many Rival will continue to exclude you from bonuses...I cannot understand how the system works. You are branded as a bonus abuser if you tried a couple of free chips...

I deposit hundreds of dollars in hopes of cashing out thousands so a 10 free chip with 5x max cash out cap is meaningless to me. In fact I can email back almost any VIP manager and get a bigger freechip with no max, for the asking. Also, I don't claim many bonuses and never if they are less that 200% and never with a WR over 15X. What you can get just for asking if you deposit at a casino. So this isn't the thread to post complaints about bonuses (why it's in the no-bonus issues section - clever, n'est pas?) or to discuss cashing out by playing freechips without ever having deposited. I mean why the f would I want to be associated with that practice, considering the sizable investments that I've had to make in my cash-outs??

. IMO, if you enjoy Rival games, play at Slotocash...But when I had my very first cash-out at a Rival after a free chip, things went south everywhere except Slotocash...They are not accredited here at CM, but there are few complaints, and if you have never had to PAB over a ....

I'm sorry JB, but I've mended my fences with Mayan Fortune, and I don't know what any site will be like tomorrow and this thread is about one individual casino, not Rival casinos in general of preferentially, with whom I differed with for a minute but, I am delighted to say, have since reconciled with.
 
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RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
Rob,

After the 24-hour pending period for withdrawals they are no longer available in the cashier but if you contact live chat the money is reversed within a minute.

Of course, but I can do that at any Microgaming casino as well. You don't even need to wait the 24 hours Chu, just get on chat and have them flush it when you first cash out. I've done that at most all of the Rivals that I have had cash outs with. It's up to the individuals willpower though whether they decide to get back with support and have the flushed cash out put back into their account though.
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Of course, but I can do that at any Microgaming casino as well. You don't even need to wait the 24 hours Chu, just get on chat and have them flush it when you first cash out. I've done that at most all of the Rivals that I have had cash outs with. It's up to the individuals willpower though whether they decide to get back with support and have the flushed cash out put back into their account though.

Rob,

The problem is some Rivals insist that they process the withdrawal 5 days after the 24-hour pending period. At least that was the answer I got from Irish Luck several months ago. They have a long processing period and that could entice many a player to go to live chat and reverse it especially if they are short of funds. Almost always, the processing time of 5 days embraces a weekend and many players will feel idle and want to play. I have seen improvement from several Rivals as the processing time is at most 2-3 working days but it wasnt the case several months ago.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Coxwel,


I dislike the feeling given by many of the Rivals. Gives an impression you are doing something seriously wrong while not giving you any bonuses. However, yours is a slightly different case as you stated you have never deposited and only took their free chips. You have already tried out the software and cashed out so imo you should at least make a couple of deposits to show you are not abusing their bonuses. That said, however, the Rival software is stupid because it cannot identify the true depositors from others. Once the system identifies you as a 'bonus abuser' no matter how much you deposit things will not change and many Rival will continue to exclude you from bonuses. I have made more than $10K in deposits , some without bonuses, at all Rivals yet Absolute Slots(cant remember the new name), TIV, Pantasia and a host of Rivals still brand me as a bonus abuser. It is up to individual casinos to offer me bonuses now.

I cannot understand how the system works. You are branded as a bonus abuser if you tried a couple of free chips and/or taking out match bonuses in one or two Rivals yet they are unable to detect that you had subsequently made many deposits across several Rival casinos.


It not so much the policy, but the LIES!!

WE were initially told that each Rival casino was a separate entity LIE! MOST were owned by Bonne-Chance, and now it seems it is a split between 2 major groups and a couple of independents.

Other casinos certainly have terms that would NOT allow you to take a bonus at one in the group, and then another, and another - BUT, they are up front about this in the terms, Rival on the otherhand, hide behind this cloak of secrecy called the "central database". Now, if it was recording ONLY fraudsters - fine, however, it is recording MORE that this, and under UK law this is ILLEGAL, because, as they say, they are NOT CONNECTED with each other. The UK law would ONLY permit such sharing IF IT WAS WITHIN A GROUP, unless the player had opted in.
UK players have the RIGHT also to DEMAND their information is NOT shared with another business, so all UK players have to do is tell a specific Rival casino they DO NOT want their personal info to be shared to third parties, which would mean entering anything other than FRAUD reports on the central database would be illegal, and would seriously affect how the casinos, and Rival, were perceived should one want to license within the EU.

Rival then have 2 choices, quit telling lies about "independent casinos", or stop storing player's depositing habits on a central database (except in cases of fraud).
 

bernynhel

Dormant account
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 30, 2006
Location
Los Angeles
... some Rivals insist that they process the withdrawal 5 days after the 24-hour pending period.

That would explain why Mayan Fortune, in the Silverston Overseas Ltd group with Irish Luck, capitulated and paid me when they did, even though I never sent the additional docs which, IMO, were only being asked for to stall payment.

Other casinos certainly have terms that would NOT allow you to take a bonus at one in the group, and then another, and another - BUT, they are up front about this in the terms, Rival on the other hand, hide behind this cloak of secrecy called the "central database". Now, if it was recording ONLY fraudsters - fine, however, it is recording MORE that this, and under UK law this is ILLEGAL, because, as they say, they are NOT CONNECTED with each other.

It seems to me that they are not connected other than for the shared progressive JPs. Here's why I think so: My mom and I have separate accounts at several Rival Sites. Mine were registered from Los Angeles, Mom's from Palm Desert, separate PCs. I just moved in with her and so now we share a PC and IP address. Only a couple of Rival Sites have locked us out of bonuses because, I think, we were each claiming separate free chips from within our separate accounts but from the same PC/IP address. But other that that, we both can still claim match deposit bonuses in our separate accounts, in overlapping casinos. This doesn't prove anything other than some of the sites, apparently, are not utilizing their auto-multi-bonus-claimer-safeguards.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Berny, I would be very cautious in using the bonuses. I'd hate to see a major win denied because of any "shared IP" or shared address business.

Perhaps an email outlining how your living arrangements have changed? And that both accounts are still allowed bonuses, so that you have transparency and cannot later be accused of "bonus abuse" or "multiple accounts".

Since I no longer play at any Rivals and I am too lazy to go do your research for you in their terms and conditions for you, its just a suggestion.

Sometimes terms only refer to signing up from the same address, other times it is playing.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
Hey Berny....I can't play at Rivals anymore since I'm in Canuckia but if any of the casinos I DO play at give me any lip, can I sic your mom on 'em? ;)
 
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