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bellerock being akward over ID - locked accs and no payouts.
- Thread starter marcholmes
- Start date
- Status
From Belle Rock, quoted by Sirius:
Sirius are you happy to swallow this whole? It is a circular argument. They are saying "we claim there is a problem, and the fact that we say there is a problem proves that there is a problem." While such a grandiose statement fits in with Belle Rock's delusion that they are some kind of authority figure, it shouldn't be automatically accepted unchallenged.
Wouldn't it be nice if the minute we claimed something it became true? We would just have to say something and we would always automatically be right because we'd just said it. That is what Belle Rock is asking us to accept.
When Belle Rock ask for certified / verified documents / copies (sorry but their terminology changes all the time) it doesn't automatically mean that they have found a problem. There are other possible explanations. One is that Belle Rock have simply decided not to pay, to achieve this they place unduly onerous demands on the player claiming his winnings, and proceed to frig him around as much as possible.
I would say the posts on this thread point towards the later explanation as being more likely, and I speak as a player who has been robbed of deposit and winnings totalling 498 Euros by these thieving scumbags.
Sirius are you happy to swallow this whole? It is a circular argument. They are saying "we claim there is a problem, and the fact that we say there is a problem proves that there is a problem." While such a grandiose statement fits in with Belle Rock's delusion that they are some kind of authority figure, it shouldn't be automatically accepted unchallenged.
Wouldn't it be nice if the minute we claimed something it became true? We would just have to say something and we would always automatically be right because we'd just said it. That is what Belle Rock is asking us to accept.
When Belle Rock ask for certified / verified documents / copies (sorry but their terminology changes all the time) it doesn't automatically mean that they have found a problem. There are other possible explanations. One is that Belle Rock have simply decided not to pay, to achieve this they place unduly onerous demands on the player claiming his winnings, and proceed to frig him around as much as possible.
I would say the posts on this thread point towards the later explanation as being more likely, and I speak as a player who has been robbed of deposit and winnings totalling 498 Euros by these thieving scumbags.
Let_It_Ride
Non-Gambler
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2006
- Location
- europe
here's a link to the directors of bellerock
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
I suggest those of you having problems try and email them direct, I would try name combinations such as
TimJ@carmenmedia.com
TimJohnson@carmenmedia.com
Tim.Johnson@carmenmedia.com
good luck all.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
I suggest those of you having problems try and email them direct, I would try name combinations such as
TimJ@carmenmedia.com
TimJohnson@carmenmedia.com
Tim.Johnson@carmenmedia.com
good luck all.
I don't actually believe at the moment there were discrepancies in the ID but I'm hoping the casinos think there are. Has anyone got any more responses from eCOGRA? Bellerock have asked players to complain to eCOGRA (which I'm not a fan of) but eCOGRA don't seem to have looked into it much so far.
On the subject of telling players what is wrong with the ID, they simply shouldn't do it if they believe the ID is fraudulant as it would give the person an idea of how to get around it next time. I'm sure I've read cases Casinomeister dealt with where it turned out that the ID was fraudulant but the casino never told the player but Casinomeister was told the actual reasons.
On the subject of telling players what is wrong with the ID, they simply shouldn't do it if they believe the ID is fraudulant as it would give the person an idea of how to get around it next time. I'm sure I've read cases Casinomeister dealt with where it turned out that the ID was fraudulant but the casino never told the player but Casinomeister was told the actual reasons.
I haven't heard anything from them 5 days after submitting a complaint, so I suppose I'll have to write again.sirius said:
One of the many thing that worries me here is that in their e-mails confiscating winnings Bellerock offer to take the case to eCOGRA themselves. If you take them up on that then you don't even get the chance to put your own case.
One of the interesting point regarding all this is Cost.
On friday I telephoned a Notary Public (Type of solicitor/lawyer) and asked how much it would be to certify that a photocopy of my passport was mine.
The charge was 50 plus VAT (A tax in the uk charged @17.5%) so would be 58.75.
Are the casinos paying this back.
This all seems to be an excuse just not to pay. Are Belle Rock saying that all these posters are committing fraud.
On friday I telephoned a Notary Public (Type of solicitor/lawyer) and asked how much it would be to certify that a photocopy of my passport was mine.
The charge was 50 plus VAT (A tax in the uk charged @17.5%) so would be 58.75.
Are the casinos paying this back.
This all seems to be an excuse just not to pay. Are Belle Rock saying that all these posters are committing fraud.
spearmaster
RIP Ted
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2001
- Location
- Heaven
GOCC said:
Ouch... very good point... but on the other hand you only have to do this once and you can send the same copies to all the casinos.
spearmaster said:
I agree spear BUT the way that this seems to be going, they will want recently certified copies. IE in the last 3 months.
The thing is as posted by someone else, they are only cetifying the original photocopy, once this is scanned to be sent it becomes another document.
I personally now when I go to join any casino wil be sending my documents BEFORE I play. Then if they accept and I win and then they quriey the authenticity, I would expect them then to receive the full wrath of the meister and ecogra (Though I know which would worry me the most)
It doesn't stop with the cost of certifying the copies. If Belle Rock insist on telephoning the solicitor, then as soon as the solicitor picks up the phone he'll start charging for time spent on the matter, and send his bill to guess who? I can't see Belle Rock offering to pick up the tab.
No problems with River Belle
I played for the first time on this casino : $ 50 deposit and $ 200 bonus.
Cashed out $400 on June,8 and today the money is in my Neteller account.
They did not ask any ID documents to send.
I am pleasantly surprised because after reading this thread I had my doubts about getting my money.
I played for the first time on this casino : $ 50 deposit and $ 200 bonus.
Cashed out $400 on June,8 and today the money is in my Neteller account.
They did not ask any ID documents to send.
I am pleasantly surprised because after reading this thread I had my doubts about getting my money.
josegarcia
Dormant account
- Joined
- Jun 9, 2006
- Location
- sheffield
Glad you got your money retlaw, however i have a similar but interestingly different story of belle rock refusing to pay me.
I received the following email from belle rock :
"Your account has been fully reviewed by our risk department and the result is as follow:
We are sorry to inform you that there are discrepancies with the documents that you have sent us.
Therefore we have no other choice but to have your account locked and refund your initial deposit back to your Neteller account.
If you are unsatisfied with any part of our decision, please feel free to contact us and we will bring your case to Ecogra for an unbiased review."
At first sight this sounds pretty similar to the other complaints on here, however there is one significant difference worth noting - I have never sent them any id documents. (They had asked and I hadnt got round to sending them yet)
The conclusion I draw from this is that belle rock says there are "discrepancies" with documents when it has decided it doesnt feel like paying a big winner.
It must be nice work if you can get it as a casino owner, paying the people who you think will come back and lose it all again amd refusing to pay others on the basis of "discrepancies" in id documents which you have not even received.
I received the following email from belle rock :
"Your account has been fully reviewed by our risk department and the result is as follow:
We are sorry to inform you that there are discrepancies with the documents that you have sent us.
Therefore we have no other choice but to have your account locked and refund your initial deposit back to your Neteller account.
If you are unsatisfied with any part of our decision, please feel free to contact us and we will bring your case to Ecogra for an unbiased review."
At first sight this sounds pretty similar to the other complaints on here, however there is one significant difference worth noting - I have never sent them any id documents. (They had asked and I hadnt got round to sending them yet)
The conclusion I draw from this is that belle rock says there are "discrepancies" with documents when it has decided it doesnt feel like paying a big winner.
It must be nice work if you can get it as a casino owner, paying the people who you think will come back and lose it all again amd refusing to pay others on the basis of "discrepancies" in id documents which you have not even received.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 2003
- Location
- Alaska
OK.
I don't normally like to get involved with many issues.
But this issue and the JPF issue have caught my eye, and I feel that my input here may or may not be helpful.
I work in the legal industry (Law Enforcement). Some of you may know this - some may not. The point of advising you of this, gives credence to what I am about to say.
I deal, on a daily basis, with identification and identification issues.
Each state, country, utility - ad infinitum... has a different look or requirement to the identification that it provides. Some of these looks are easily forged, some are difficult to ascertain.
Currently the online gaming industry is under extreme scrutiny. Politicians would have you believe that they (the Online Gaming Industry) fund terrorism, etc. By laundering money or by funneling funds towards terroristic or mob activity. While this is possible, it is unlikely, in my book - I tend to think it has more to do with the lack of the ability of the politicians to touch the money or have any taxation on it.
It is very difficult to get an updated 'version' of the individual types of licenses, identification cards and utility bills in order to confirm that the identification, itself, is valid.
I disagree with the Casino in that they refuse to advise the customer what exactly is the discrepancy - however as a caveat - I must admit there are some issues which could possibly tip off a forger so that they do not make the same mistake twice - thus creating a "perfect" copy for the next identification process. So in reality - this is a double edged sword for the Casino.
A notary or solicitor should never provide personal information to anyone else, unless specifically instructed to by the individual - in 99.9% of cases where a notary has breached confidentiality - there is the ability for recourse. (In other words, if your notary tells his/her friends that you came in to see them with this particular issue - then you may not only initiate an investigation regarding their oath and practice - you also may have the right to sue them in a civil issue, aside from the state or country taking action.)
I agree with the right of the Casino to request identification and certification of the information by a reputable or legal point. Forged documents are a very big issue - and with the current political set, every step must be insured for veracity.
However, I think that the manner in which it is done - to allow the player to deposit - then question it on a win, is a bit uncomfortable for the player - and shines a bad light on the company.
Belle Rock - certainly has an issue with customer service. My own personal opinion is that they need better management over customer service and a better communication network. They also need to set a standard within their own agency so that everything is formatted exactly the same, with variances only for individual responses. The chain of command needs to be set - and followed. However, I don't own the company - but I can choose to play with them with my money based on my idealogy of their service.
So - basically - I don't think that if they ask a customer to certify documents that they are in the wrong.
However, they should do their own research - and should find an acceptable way to have the consumer certify the documents at their (the Casino's) expense.
My suggestion would be for the company to make a choice of a specific place or company/business/solictor/notary within a reasonable distance from the person's residence that is accessible by the person and provide reimbursement to the person/player in order to arrive there (taxi fare, bus fare, gas fare) and return home.
It could be as simple as a specific clerk at a grocery store - to as complicated as a private notary or solicitor or attorney.
This would make the Casino responsible for the action and not the customer.
I think this is a responsibility of who pays "what" issue - and an issue of what is acceptable as a certification process - more so than the gaming industry pulling a "fast one".
Which narrows down to: A lack of a definitive customer service plan and a lack of information between the Casino and each state or jurisdiction's identification process.
Now - bear in mind. Like there are rogue casinos, there are rogue players.
Know that there are a multitude of people with forged documents that are, indeed, doing illegal things and the Casino has a right to protect itself.
However - the Casino should compensate the player at some point for the hassle - especially if the identification proves to be legitimate.
If the Casino cannot formulate a plan to work both in favor of the Casino and the player - then the Casino is at fault, provided the player is working in good faith with the Casino.
The player's responsibility lies in providing the documents - but no further.
If, however, the Casino wants further documentation because it has questioned the player's documents - then I believe it should be up to the Casino to assist the player in getting that documentation - and providing a way for the player to get that documentation certified.
Again - in my humble opinion - it is a lack of customer service skills that is provoking this issue - IF the player's documentation is in order and the player is guilt free.
Also again (long winded, I know - sorry... but I have to clarify my thoughts, so they are precise) The Casino has the right to protect itself from scam artists, forgers, rogue players and the politicians. But it should make every reasonable effort to provide excellent customer service - and in so doing, it needs to make the means available to the player to complete the action it is requesting of the player.
Here are my suggestions for the Casino to use...
For example:
Then:
(Why... you ask? Because Police Departments, Judges, Solicitors, Lawyers are not going to want to put effort or time into providing certification for gambling - plus there IS a stigmata associated with gambling for the customer - and a Casino should understand that while gambling is perfectly acceptable in Las Vegas/Monaco, etc., it is not widely accepted everywhere - which is why in home online privacy should be respected.)
Just my thoughts on this particular issue.
Meki
WagerWitch
luckymeki
I don't normally like to get involved with many issues.
But this issue and the JPF issue have caught my eye, and I feel that my input here may or may not be helpful.
I work in the legal industry (Law Enforcement). Some of you may know this - some may not. The point of advising you of this, gives credence to what I am about to say.
I deal, on a daily basis, with identification and identification issues.
Each state, country, utility - ad infinitum... has a different look or requirement to the identification that it provides. Some of these looks are easily forged, some are difficult to ascertain.
Currently the online gaming industry is under extreme scrutiny. Politicians would have you believe that they (the Online Gaming Industry) fund terrorism, etc. By laundering money or by funneling funds towards terroristic or mob activity. While this is possible, it is unlikely, in my book - I tend to think it has more to do with the lack of the ability of the politicians to touch the money or have any taxation on it.
It is very difficult to get an updated 'version' of the individual types of licenses, identification cards and utility bills in order to confirm that the identification, itself, is valid.
I disagree with the Casino in that they refuse to advise the customer what exactly is the discrepancy - however as a caveat - I must admit there are some issues which could possibly tip off a forger so that they do not make the same mistake twice - thus creating a "perfect" copy for the next identification process. So in reality - this is a double edged sword for the Casino.
A notary or solicitor should never provide personal information to anyone else, unless specifically instructed to by the individual - in 99.9% of cases where a notary has breached confidentiality - there is the ability for recourse. (In other words, if your notary tells his/her friends that you came in to see them with this particular issue - then you may not only initiate an investigation regarding their oath and practice - you also may have the right to sue them in a civil issue, aside from the state or country taking action.)
I agree with the right of the Casino to request identification and certification of the information by a reputable or legal point. Forged documents are a very big issue - and with the current political set, every step must be insured for veracity.
However, I think that the manner in which it is done - to allow the player to deposit - then question it on a win, is a bit uncomfortable for the player - and shines a bad light on the company.
Belle Rock - certainly has an issue with customer service. My own personal opinion is that they need better management over customer service and a better communication network. They also need to set a standard within their own agency so that everything is formatted exactly the same, with variances only for individual responses. The chain of command needs to be set - and followed. However, I don't own the company - but I can choose to play with them with my money based on my idealogy of their service.
So - basically - I don't think that if they ask a customer to certify documents that they are in the wrong.
However, they should do their own research - and should find an acceptable way to have the consumer certify the documents at their (the Casino's) expense.
My suggestion would be for the company to make a choice of a specific place or company/business/solictor/notary within a reasonable distance from the person's residence that is accessible by the person and provide reimbursement to the person/player in order to arrive there (taxi fare, bus fare, gas fare) and return home.
It could be as simple as a specific clerk at a grocery store - to as complicated as a private notary or solicitor or attorney.
This would make the Casino responsible for the action and not the customer.
I think this is a responsibility of who pays "what" issue - and an issue of what is acceptable as a certification process - more so than the gaming industry pulling a "fast one".
Which narrows down to: A lack of a definitive customer service plan and a lack of information between the Casino and each state or jurisdiction's identification process.
Now - bear in mind. Like there are rogue casinos, there are rogue players.
Know that there are a multitude of people with forged documents that are, indeed, doing illegal things and the Casino has a right to protect itself.
However - the Casino should compensate the player at some point for the hassle - especially if the identification proves to be legitimate.
If the Casino cannot formulate a plan to work both in favor of the Casino and the player - then the Casino is at fault, provided the player is working in good faith with the Casino.
The player's responsibility lies in providing the documents - but no further.
If, however, the Casino wants further documentation because it has questioned the player's documents - then I believe it should be up to the Casino to assist the player in getting that documentation - and providing a way for the player to get that documentation certified.
Again - in my humble opinion - it is a lack of customer service skills that is provoking this issue - IF the player's documentation is in order and the player is guilt free.
Also again (long winded, I know - sorry... but I have to clarify my thoughts, so they are precise) The Casino has the right to protect itself from scam artists, forgers, rogue players and the politicians. But it should make every reasonable effort to provide excellent customer service - and in so doing, it needs to make the means available to the player to complete the action it is requesting of the player.
Here are my suggestions for the Casino to use...
For example:
- Customer deposits and plays at casino
- Customer wins
- Customer asks for cashout
- Casino asks for ID (to verify identity)
- Customer sends ID
- Casino scrutinizes ID, does not have a verifiable source to judge ID sound
- Casino asks customer to provide certified copy
Then:
- ----- Casino advises that it will:
- -------------(a) Reimburse for expenses of travel and cost of certification process - since it is the Casino asking for certification.
- -------------(b) The Casino will advise the customer of a specific location or a specific group of locations that would be acceptable for certification process - which the Casino will then accept. The Casino providing reimbursement for the inconvenience of the customer, since the customer has acted in good faith in providing the original documentation.
- ------------(c) If the Casino does not automatically have a reliable location that is satisfactory for both the player and the Casino - the Casino should at it's own expense, do research in locating an acceptable place for the customer. (ie; look in the yellow pages for a business that the Casino would accept certification from) and provide expenses in reimbursement form for travel.
- -----------(d) The Casino should have a group of rules and regulations in place regarding identification - process of certification - reimbursement.
- -----------(e) The Casino should have a Nameless Form that can be signed by the business that does NOT identify the clarification process as a gambling issue.
(Why... you ask? Because Police Departments, Judges, Solicitors, Lawyers are not going to want to put effort or time into providing certification for gambling - plus there IS a stigmata associated with gambling for the customer - and a Casino should understand that while gambling is perfectly acceptable in Las Vegas/Monaco, etc., it is not widely accepted everywhere - which is why in home online privacy should be respected.)
Just my thoughts on this particular issue.
Meki
WagerWitch
luckymeki
I never undertand this term Money Laundering in how it is banded about.
If I deposit with NETeller
Win With NETeller
Withdraw to NETeller
How can I have laundered any money. As long as they pay back to the sorce of deposit it irradicates the money laundering excuse.
A poster has had his documents refused due to discrepencies but he hasnt even sent in any. What doe that say ??
Plus another thing, they have refunded deposits back to NETeller. So, what if you do not win anything to make a withdrawal back to NETeller. Would they ask for ID then because it doesnt match pay you your loses back.?Not a chance.
This bares the same as Captain cooks. All accounts got locked but if you had lost, they reopened. If you had any money in, they accused you are being part of a fraud ring
If I deposit with NETeller
Win With NETeller
Withdraw to NETeller
How can I have laundered any money. As long as they pay back to the sorce of deposit it irradicates the money laundering excuse.
A poster has had his documents refused due to discrepencies but he hasnt even sent in any. What doe that say ??
Plus another thing, they have refunded deposits back to NETeller. So, what if you do not win anything to make a withdrawal back to NETeller. Would they ask for ID then because it doesnt match pay you your loses back.?Not a chance.
This bares the same as Captain cooks. All accounts got locked but if you had lost, they reopened. If you had any money in, they accused you are being part of a fraud ring
They noticed discrepancies in documents they hadn't even received? Sirius wrote:
"We have found discrepancies in the documents" seems to be Belle Rock's default setting, even before any documents arrive! I'm afraid my money's still on the gratuitous frigging around option.
Belle Rock wrote:
Well at least I'm getting a few laughs for my 498 euros, although it's more than I'd normally spend to hear a few one-liners from a comedian.I don't see the political issue here. Perhaps under-age gambling or playing from the USA when not allowed might be a publicity problem, but if you're going to be seen to take action on that you'd have to verify gamblers before they play. You can't say it's ok if you're underage as long as you lose. In fact it's the behaviour of Bellerock that's further undermining the casino industry and creating genuine reasons for politicians to be concerned.luckymeki said:
It's clear that ID really isn't issue when you provide certified ID and it makes no difference, or where you're told documents the casino don't possess have discrepancies. I understand casinos might struggle with interpreting ID from some countries, but I don't think UK drivers licences or passports are going to tax them. Note all of this info can be (and presumably is - see for example Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) ) checked automatically on the internet. Heck, with a little help from Google I can find my address and a satellite photo of my house. If I can do that I imagine Bellerock can too.
I do agree with you that if casinos genuinely have any need for certified documents they need to compensate the players and help them to obtain them - but again, documents are a red herring here (in my case & it seems for others too) - it's just an excuse for avoiding payment.
Vesuvio said:
I agree Vesuvio
Take Harrods Casino for example I had played there for a while and made quite a few withdrawals. The first time I had to make a large withdrawal however (a few thousand) they asked for ID.
They were apologetic, said it was their policy but also said in compensation for the hassle they would gift me 50 on receipt of the ID. ( which they subsequently did)
Now that is what I call quality service and for casinos who require ID is the model they should follow.
Mitch
thechap
Banned User - multiple forum accounts - violation
- Joined
- Dec 13, 2004
- Location
- sunny croxdale
I would very much like to see further comment from Belle Rock on this issue. It is apparent that they have not been 100% honest on what is going on and until they are able to clarify exactly what is going on my business is definately going elsewhere.
Pinababy69
RIP Lisa
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2004
- Location
- Toronto, Ontario - Canada
josegarcia said:
Simply can't wait to hear the answer on this one, just can't wait.
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