bellerock being akward over ID - locked accs and no payouts.

[vinylweatherman]

Well, we have our answer.

It seems we now know the reasons, BelleRock ARE accusing these players of a CRIMINAL ACT, that of forgery. As no trial has taken place in open court they are in clear breach of UK and Euopean law, including the Human Rights act, for causing the player loss by assuming guilt without due legal process. The only right they have is to lock the player out, BUT they must pay the winnings gained up to this point, as no actual term related to gameplay has been breached.
They have now seen fit to level the accusation to a solicitor that they have colluded by certifying a fraudulent document. I would hope the solicitor concerned ensures that BelleRock justify this action.
If certified documents are STILL not enough, what next, demand to meet all players in person and take Iris Scans and Fingerprints!
They clearly had no intention of paying from the outset, and set hoops that they did not believe would be got through by the player, so they could simply use the excuse of non-compliance with requests for documentation. eCogra do not seem satisfied with these certified docs either, as they have sided with the casino in at least one case.
I would suggest raising this with the new UK Gambling Commission so that they are aware that casinos are doing this, and can be prepared for a response when they draw up the licencing rules and standards of conduct.

BelleRock "believe" the documents are fake;
Some players "Believe" that their Blackjack is rigged to give the dealer too many beats from almost hopeless hard hands. As we "believe" this, the casino is guilty of rigging the games, even though they have provided certified payout and RNG figures, these are scanned and placed on the website and could simply be fake also. As they are guilty, even though this has not been tested in court, we are allowed to consider this guilt irrefutable, and can cause disadvantage to the casino by telling all potential players that they are running a rigged game.

Ridiculous, isn't it!

But what is good for the casino...............

 

[spearmaster]

I wouldn't go so far as to say they were accusing anyone of a criminal act - but you gotta admit that this is not looking very good.

I am sure BelleRock is monitoring this thread. Asking someone for documents and then later telling them they are not needed is ridiculous.

Just spoken to my solicitor, this is the first time she has known an organisation reject certified documents, it's always been good enough for banks and building societies.

So it looks like they are saying I've faked the docs? Are they also saying my solicitor was involved in this? If so she'll be very interested in what the allegations are.

edit --> BTW, it looks like they are saying that they don't believe the original documents are genuine - not the certified ones as these were "no longer required".

 

[jetset]

Vinyl, I seem to have missed something here - would you clarify the following statements you have just made, please:

"It seems we now know the reasons, BelleRock ARE accusing these players of a CRIMINAL ACT, that of forgery."

and this:

"They have now seen fit to level the accusation to a solicitor that they (presumably a number of players???) have colluded by certifying a fraudulent document. I would hope the solicitor concerned ensures that BelleRock justify this action."

Where did you read this, and do you have any further detail on this interesting development? Do you know what the solicitor told BelleRock - ie were the documents in his opinion legitimate? Are the players referred to posting here on this issue?

 

[Vesuvio]

Where did you read this, and do you have any further detail on this interesting development?

See the previous page of this thread. It's not clear what Bellerock are claiming (though in one case forgery), but it is clear that their rep here and CS are lying and misleading players about the reasons for withholding payments.

 

[furby]

Their rep here wrote this in a pm to me yesterday:

We have reason to believe that your documents have been tampered with, and that is why we have requested a certified copy.

Although they used a passive verb, it is quite clear who they are accusing of doing the tampering.

In view of what happenened to marcholmes, the rep's message to me is a blatant lie. They have not requested a certified copy because they believe my documents have been tampered with. If that was the case, then by acting on this and sending certified copies, plus details of the solicitor who they can contact, the matter would move towards resolution. But in fact if I send the documents they will suddenly become "no longer required", and I'll get the marcholmes email.

The reason they have requested certified documents is purely and simply to frig me around. They never intended to pay me in the first place, and just asked for certified documents in the hope that I wouldn't send them and they could use this to justify the non-payment. Ecogra are going along with this for some reason. If I do send them, I don't get paid anyway.

Apart from anything else, I deposited at Gaming Club in good faith, and abided by their t&cs. I sent id when asked. I acted in good faith and placed my trust in them. In return they have accused me of forging documents, which I regard as an unfounded slur on my integrity and an insult, and stolen my deposit and winnings.

Belle Rock seems to think that they are some kind of authority figure, and that they have the right to accuse players, find them guilty and punish them, without presenting any evidence whatsoever.

The players are not in the dock here. Belle Rock is.

 

[Mousey]

I don't want to derail the thread, but aren't belle rock merging with another group? Trident/Neptunes? I don't understand what is happening, or why, (and Belle Rock prefers to keep everyone in the dark) though all these locked accounts remind me of the Casino Rewards fiasco a while back.

Furby said:

Belle Rock seems to think that they are some kind of authority figure, and that they have the right to accuse players, find them guilty and punish them, without presenting any evidence whatsoever.

I'm just a player, who has played (almost daily) online for years. And frankly, with some of the things I've seen happening in the industry lately, I'm more than just a little bit reluctant to hand my money over to an online casino.

 

[marcholmes]

You gotta laugh, the latest claim from the bellerock rep on here is they have tried contact my solicitor on 4 occasions and rec'd no response.

I have now given them the link to my solicitors firms website.
Also linked them to the page which shows my solicitor.
Naturally ALL contact details are on these pages.

My solicitor is unfortunately on holiday today.

I have asked bellerock to try again on Monday. Should they get no response I have asked for a contact number so my solicitor can call them. They can then call my solicitor back, the number will be cross checkable on the firms website. Should they wish to check the existence of this firm and solicitor they are free to contact the Law Society in the UK.

I have not rec'd any response to my latest request.

There is nothing wrong with my docs. They have been certified by a solicitor.

It's quite simple, bellerock just do not want to pay - I have complied with every T+C so far.

 

[thechap]

Well I can only say I'm aghast at what's going on here. IMO belle rock should address all the issues here, or they should be rogued.

 

[marcholmes]

The incompetance/lack of CS is beyond belief.
Here is the latest emailresponse from them (not a PM). I had asked them to channel all communication through the bellerock rep on here.

Thank you for emailing Belle Rock Entertainment.

Our Investigations Department will be contact with you with in regards to this matter. They will be requesting those certified documents.

We apologize for any inconvenience caused by this matter.

Should you require any further assistance, feel free to contact us, as we are available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week for your convenience.

Kind regards,

So they want me to send those certified docs again?

Talk about being given the run around.

 

[spearmaster]

WTF...

Someone needs to get their heads out of the sand quick...

 

[Pinababy69]

WTF...

Someone needs to get their heads out of the sand quick...

Spear, this thread is really disheartening. With everything that's gone on in the last month or so, this is not what's needed now. The poster had his documents certified as per their request, and that's still not good enough? So the lawyer is a liar as well I guess?

I'm getting so disillusioned with this.

 

[Slotster!]

English Harbour, King Neptunes, Jackpot Factory...

Regardless of who's right or wrong, what the casino are allowed to do and what they're not... Blah blah blah... Who can be bothered? Seriously!??

To all the players affected - I sincerely hope you get paid.

To everyone else - Just strike anything related to Belle Rock permanently off your 'places to play'... I mean; why would anyone even risk it after all this malarkey!?!? Regardless of who's right, what they got, what they didn't, were the documents ok etc etc - the customer service and response alone is enough to plummet these deep into the depths of roguedom forever, surely?

Unbelievable.

 

[paul02085]

This is as bad as anything RTG or Playtech sites have done. Even worse because this is MG!! and Ecogra is backing this garbage?

Bellerock is gonna be the new Virtual Casino and Ecogra the new Safebet (Platinum even). I am serious as a heart attack.

Rogue the bastards. Absolutely amazing.

PS- I would bet anything they are doing this only to people who took a bonus and beat them.

PSS- Anyone who played without a bonus have trouble? Just curious.

 

[MarcyW]

I don't want to sound dumb but what is a 'solicitor'?

 

[GrandMaster]

There are basically two kinds of lawyers in England, solicitors and barristers. Solicitors handle most of general legal work, barristers represent people in court and give specialist advice, although there have been changes recently and some solicitors can also appear in court.

 

[caruso]

Bellerock is gonna be the new Virtual Casino and Ecogra the new Safebet (Platinum even). I am serious as a heart attack.

At the risk of re-igniting bad feeling on a forum where admin, mods and all the people you can do without pissing off are staunchly pro-eCOGRA: I DID call this a long, long, long time ago.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Clarification

Vinyl, I seem to have missed something here - would you clarify the following statements you have just made, please:

"It seems we now know the reasons, BelleRock ARE accusing these players of a CRIMINAL ACT, that of forgery."

and this:

"They have now seen fit to level the accusation to a solicitor that they (presumably a number of players???) have colluded by certifying a fraudulent document. I would hope the solicitor concerned ensures that BelleRock justify this action."

Where did you read this, and do you have any further detail on this interesting development? Do you know what the solicitor told BelleRock - ie were the documents in his opinion legitimate? Are the players referred to posting here on this issue?

Using "tampered" documents to obtain something one is not entitled to is a criminal act, either forgery or deception. Even though BelleRock did not say that the player did the tampering, they are indicating that the player is taking part in a deception to obtain money from BelleRock. The then implicate solicitors by seeming to indicate that the provision of a certified copy of these documents will not make a difference, they still don't intend to change their mind. A solicitor would NOT certify a document as genuine if they believed otherwise, they themselves would be liable to criminal penalty and the loss of their well paid career. While there ARE "bent" solicitors, this can be checked through the law society by BelleRock.

It is not good to tell the player they no longer need certified copies AFTER they have gone to the expense of complying.
We need an independent party to examine the documents in question to see if there is reasonable grounds to consider that they have been tampered with.

Since BelleRock have had screwed up CS for ages now, I take the view that the players are genuinely aggrieved, and this whole affair is down to lack of internal communication and incompetence within BelleRock group. This is supported by the fact that players of standing with them are suddenly guilty of supplying documents that contain inconsistencies.
Have they loaded a corrupt database from somewhere that is throwing out spurious verification errors on some details?

 

[thelawnet]

I would just like to add my tuppence worth: Belle Rock CS are the most useless and incompetent in the business.

I gave up playing there after trying to claim their monthly bonus: they told me my claim was invalid as I had previously attempted to claim in June 2005 (and this was in March 2006).... It rarely takes less than weeks and dozens of emails to get anything sorted out here.

Not worth it.

Just useless.

 

[chuchu59]

There are basically two kinds of lawyers in England, solicitors and barristers. Solicitors handle most of general legal work, barristers represent people in court and give specialist advice, although there have been changes recently and some solicitors can also appear in court.

Grandmaster,

In Hong Kong we use the same legal system as the UK but we cannot hire barristers directly and must do so through solicitors. Is that the same case over in your place?

 

[GrandMaster]

Yes.

 

[caruso]

We need an independent party to examine the documents in question to see if there is reasonable grounds to consider that they have been tampered with.

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

eCOGRA is independent, Vinyl.

Didn't you know that??

 

[sirius]

This looks very fishy but both the BelleRock rep and ECogra seem to think there are discrepancies or haven't bothered looking into it properly. The issue isn't that they won't reveal the discrepancies to the player. It makes sense in the case of fraud not to reveal the discrepancies to the players as it prevents people working around it (I would have thought this was obvious, but not to some people here).

If it turns out there was nothing wrong with the docs, then BelleRock are in serious trouble and need to compensate these players or reveal to everyone why they thought the docs had problems (and it better be a good reason). If they simply don't like that the players won with a bonus then they have ruined their reputation on this issue. They are one of the largest casino groups in terms of player base (2nd to 888) so they are always going to generate customer service issues.

Customer Service:

"We are sorry to inform you that there are discrepancies with the documents that you have sent us.

Therefore we have no other choice but to have your account locked and refund your initial deposit back to your Neteller account.

If you are unsatisfied with any part of our decision, please feel free to contact us and we will bring your case to Ecogra for an unbiased review."



BelleRock Rep:


"Hi All,

Unfortunately there is a discrepancy with the both Vesuvio and Marcholmes's accounts. The very fact that we have asked them to have their documents verified shows that we have found a problem that needs to be resolved. The request is not unreasonable as we have an obligation to protect our business and our players.

Until such time as we receive certified documents the accounts in question will remain closed. I am not in a position to give any further information on the board, however should eCOGRA or Casinomeister become involved the information will be shared with them in order to clarify our position.

Best regards,

Belle Rock."

Ecogra response to another of the players:

"We have investigated your query with the casino and after a thorough review have found that the casino has acted appropriately and have exercised their rights under the terms and conditions. For reasons of confidentiality the discrepancies will not be revealed.

Bearing the above in mind I must inform you that we find your dispute to be invalid.

Regards,

Tex Rees"

 

[vinylweatherman]

Open

Tsk, tsk, tsk.

eCOGRA is independent, Vinyl.

Didn't you know that??

Perhaps I should have said independent and OPEN third party. While eCogra examined the case, they refused to release their findings to the player, but I expect that the casino was party to the "documented procedure". In a true inquiry or trial, but defence and procecution have to share their evidence with each other so that the other party can challenge it!
With eCogra, the player cannot see this documented procedure in order to defend their case. Confidentiality has been waived by eCogra getting involved, and both casino AND player should be able to review each others evidence and reasoning. The player may want to take the appeal to the courts, I wonder if not releasing the findings is designed to make this more difficult. It would not look good if a court were to rule against eCogra in a test case as this could open the legal "flood gates". This is a situation that businesses take very seriously, and they often settle out of court rather than risk an adverse ruling where the evidence and proceedings will become a matter of public record. (Out of court settlement offers can be made subject to confidentiality).

 

[thelawnet]

This looks very fishy but both the BelleRock rep and ECogra seem to think there are discrepancies or haven't bothered looking into it properly. The issue isn't that they won't reveal the discrepancies to the player. It makes sense in the case of fraud not to reveal the discrepancies to the players as it prevents people working around it (I would have thought this was obvious, but not to some people here).

What a lot of rot. If you fine somebody 5,000 for an offence they have done, you have to say what the offence is.

It's like imprisoning somebody after a trial, but not telling them what the trial was for.

 

[GrandMaster]

It seems that players are entitled to much less natural justice than casinos.