Non-Bonus Complaint 888/Cassava Live Casino Bug cost me £900!

[benmooe]

Hey All,

I'm after a bit of advice in regards to a bug I encountered with 888's Live Casino.

Basically i'm by no means a High Roller when it comes to online gambling but today I decided to play in 888's VIP room on their Live casino blackjack due to other tables being filled. Nothing really different apart from chip values having to be in multiples of £50.

After playing a few hands and getting up to a respectable £900 I clicked the "rebet" button to try and get my winnings up to a nice round £1k, however then the £100 chip button came up with a yellow box around it. I thought nothing of it until i kept getting a load of "To complete this bet, you need to deposit more funds" notifications. By the looks of it, The software jammed and deposited the whole lot got put on one hand and lost.

Now 888's Phone support didn't understand my request and recommended i contact them on their online help. I've sent everything off hoping they look into this. I was just wondering if anyone had any further suggestions on what i could provide them with to build a better case as I can already foresee them turning around and telling me i'm a liar. I mean, What kind of idiot would put all £900 of their bankroll on one hand?

Cheers in advance for any help you can provide, this has been keeping me awake for a while

See Related Threads:

• Burned by 888Cassava bonus Rules?
• Cassava Phishing Scam?
• 888 Casino Isn't a Responsible Company
• 888 Locked My Account and SOME Funds

 

[benmooe]

Bump?

 

[binary128]

I would be interested in knowing if (any of) the live casinos kept detailed records of their games - Player ID, cards (for each player) for BJ, Baccarat, etc. or wheel stops for Roulette, bet amount and type (as appropriate) - in other words, everything it is possible to get from non-live casinos, multi-player poker games, and so forth.

I imagine it would require manual data entry by an employee of the live casino. Maybe they could use "card scanners", but they would still have to have a way of associating that card to a specific player. Any manual work would introduce the possibility of data entry error into any reliance on those logs.

I'm curious because I've never seen any reference to "certified play". Obviously they don't need an RNG certificate. But game play logs would be required to certify "fair play", and I've never seen anything like that referenced by the (very few) providers I've taken a look at.

Chris

 

[CasinoBen]

I would be interested in knowing if (any of) the live casinos kept detailed records of their games - Player ID, cards (for each player) for BJ, Baccarat, etc. or wheel stops for Roulette, bet amount and type (as appropriate) - in other words, everything it is possible to get from non-live casinos, multi-player poker games, and so forth.

I imagine it would require manual data entry by an employee of the live casino. Maybe they could use "card scanners", but they would still have to have a way of associating that card to a specific player. Any manual work would introduce the possibility of data entry error into any reliance on those logs.

I'm curious because I've never seen any reference to "certified play". Obviously they don't need an RNG certificate. But game play logs would be required to certify "fair play", and I've never seen anything like that referenced by the (very few) providers I've taken a look at.

Chris

Hi Chris,

I can only comment on the only two live dealer casinos that I have had as part of my offering, Playtech and Quick Fire. With both the bet and win was recorded and if the player disputed a hand you could get the details of the hand. From what I have seen with the new Netent Live Casino everything is recorded in the admin. One of them, I think Playtech, it was possible to get the video of the hand being played in case of any dispute and I believe all sessions were video recorded.

Cheers,

Ben

 

[binary128]

Ben,

Thanks for the info.

So it looks like the things that are processed "electronically" (the bet and the win) are recorded. If a Player asked for their "play logs", they might then get a list that includes the date/time, their bet amount, and the game result (amount won or lost).

It then looks like the things that are done "manually" are not recorded in a manner that would allow them to be included in a "play log". The game is recorded on video, but if you wanted to extract the data, someone (the Player, someone at the Casino) would have to watch the video and do manual data entry.

And finally, it looks like NetEnt's live casino may be recording everything such that a "play log" would both be available and of some value.

Again, thanks for the info.

Chris

 

[benmooe]

Hey Guys,

(Ben - Good name, Plus i'm a GUTS member, very happy! )

888's offering is powered by Evolution Gaming in Riga. They do have the ability to look at hands that have been dealt and decisions made on the hand. However according to a CS rep it notes a "hold" on a bj hand instead of a time-out if they don't make a decision within 10 seconds so Riga are looking into the issue apparently. 2 week wait expected. Clear software bug in regards to the over wagering. 888 seem to use a proprietary interface for their Live offering. Other web casinos who use Evolution seem to have a completely different interface. Unfortunately as i'm a bit of an iGaming industry n00b I wouldn't be competent enough to be able to assist with the investigation to have the process expedited. Might have to ask some of the tech guys I work with.

If anyone has any suggestions of what could possibly be the issue so i can get the issue looked into a bit more seriously that would be great.

Thanks
Ben

 

[benmooe]

Update,

Our technical department has reviewed the game in question:

Blackjack on: 24/06/13 03:02:45 UTC;
Dealer: 9 of Diamonds, Total: 9
Seat 4: 7 of Spades, 9 of Spades, 10 of Diamonds, Total: 26
Bet : 900.0

From the investigation, it was found that the betting options were offered to you and you clicked hit, therefore an additional card was dealt to your hand. As a result the round was lost. Unfortunately, due to this fact and that there was not an error on our part, a refund cannot be offered

They seem to have gotten the wrong end of the stick. Are there any reps from 888 on here?

 

[paul@bgo]

Hi Ben,

The most you can hope for is a goodwill refund if the bet was clearly out of character.

If a 'yellow box' appeared around the £100 chip like you say and the game uses Flash software to operate, chances are you hit the tab key and it selected the £100 chip for you.

That's about the most advice I can offer I'm afraid! It's up to 888 to help you further.

Cheers
Paul

 

[Borgie]

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/888-com-casino-on-net.55613/

Read this and other threads on Cassava

They do not have a rep here they do not seem to discuss any matters with third parties.

 

[benmooe]

So, They have concluded their investigation and stated the following.

Dear Benjamin,

Thank you for your patience whilst this matter was investigated by our Technical Department.

Benjamin, after a thorough review of your game history, our Technical Department can confirm that there is no discrepancy showing in your betting history or gameplay. Our server records show that you placed the bet successfully during the time available for bets on that round and proceeded to play without difficulty.

As no error has been found and the round has been played without difficulty, I regret to inform you that we are unable to refund you on this occasion.

If you have further queries regarding this round or any others which you may play in the future, we kindly ask that you provide us with a screenshot showing the error/query in question so that we can investigate further.

Thank you for your time, I wish you the best of luck with the games.

Kind regards,
Amanda G.
Management Support Representative

If my betting history is to be looked at, I never wagered more than £50 a time. a £900 bet is very out of character. I have even drawn these guys a diagram showing what happened and they seem to be ignoring it. Does anyone have any advice on where i can take it from here?

 

[vinylweatherman]

So, They have concluded their investigation and stated the following.




If my betting history is to be looked at, I never wagered more than £50 a time. a £900 bet is very out of character. I have even drawn these guys a diagram showing what happened and they seem to be ignoring it. Does anyone have any advice on where i can take it from here?

You can take it up with the toaster

You won't see any difference between this and taking it up with the GRA.

They are choosing to ignore the actual issue.

It has NOTHING to do with the server, or anything "technical" at their end between server and live casino.

The issue is with the client interface, and they are not keeping any records of these transactions.


What they CAN see is that a run of £50 bets have been made, and then out of the blue a single £900 bet crops up, after which play stops.

Although no fault can be found, there is clear evidence of a bet "totally out of character" compared with the prior play.

This is one of the biggest problems with the live casino offerings, a problem with the internet or client interface can have expensive consequences. Unlike with a regular casino, there is no time to investigate and perhaps unravel the problem, you only have 10 seconds!

If this was a software casino, it would be possible to cease play without resolving the hand and contact CS, or even take the issue further.

I do not play the "live casino". There are too many issues like this cropping up at various offerings. Until we have 100% reliability of the internet connections, live casinos are always going to be vulnerable to such issues, and the software is configured such that it is always the player that "eats the consequences" of a technical or internet related problem.

 

[benmooe]

Okay, Just had a final response from them because they believe i keep changing my story (Reality is i keep having to explain it to them and they then re-raise it to a technical department). They are completely washing their hands of the issue. Am I able to PAB or does anyone know where i can take this where I will be taken seriously. £800 of profit from a £100 deposit is too substantial for me to just shrug off and any assistance would be appreciated.

Thanks
Ben

 

[sparkz]

From what the OP says, I completely believe the OP. Betting £50 and then throwing £900 on 1 single bet is indeed out of character. Not to say there isn't players who have never done that but I highly doubt it's the case here.

Its like at MG casino's. With a lot of casino slots people hit space bar to spin, however at MG casino's, space bar often places the max bet and people who are low rollers have found their balance vanish by pressing space bar and not realising it did the max bet... Im sure that casinos have seen that and sometimes given the player a refund.

In this situation, as someone mentioned before... PAB is not possible as 888 wont discuss cases with 3rd parties.

In short, I'm sorry to say but the money is gone

 

[benmooe]

It just makes me sick to my stomach that casinos can do this with no re-course. I was contemplating serving them with a County Court money claim but as 888 Holdings PLC are based in Europort, Gibraltar that's not possible despite them having an office in London and one up north. It was money I really could have done with and I was hoping to use it to buy a new laptop for work purposes.

I wish there was a way to even just get the £100 back and try my luck at Guts or Paddy Power instead. Anyone got a time machine?

 

[Nifty29]

I think it is extremely unlikely that the software just accidentally or deliberately placed a bet for the whole account balance.

Its common sense that the OP accidentally hit the wrong button. We have all done it. I just don't see how the casino is to blame. The bet history should be posted here, and if a $900 bet WAS made, then it was made.

Would Ben have asked the casino to remove the extra winnings if his bet had won? Absolutely not. Hence, he is not due a refund.

Its no different to betting .50 and accidentally hitting bet max for $5....just the actual amounts are bigger.

I'm pretty certain, if the OP had won the bet, we would have been reading a thread about "Wow! How lucky was I???" and how he won big from an accidental bet.

Nothing personal Ben.....and I have no respect for 888...but I can't see how any "bug" would make this happen with no input from you.

 

[benmooe]

Hey Nifty,

I understand your scepticism and I totally get what you're saying.

The bug was caused by a flash event handler which takes the click input and adds the wager. As it's an overlay to a live video feed rather than a fully integral game it is going to be less stable than the non-live software. It is usually seen with a coloured box around the selection and the input sticked to "on" instead of "on" then "off" (Bit of flash jargon, sorry if I'm being too techy), Kind of like if you held down your mouse button when adjusting the bet it would keep increasing. I sent the full bug reports to Cassava and they have access to my betting history which I am more than happy to provide on here if it warrants any kind of investigative assistance. There is no wrong button that I could have pressed as they do not work like online slots where there is a max bet option. You literally select the incremental chip value and click until you are happy with the wager during the set countdown period of 10 seconds.

The issue with their live casino offering is that you don't confirm your bet and then play the hand. It literally takes the chips without confirmation if they are in the bet area. You find that most other Live casinos have a confirm button that you must press otherwise your bet is not taken, This allows any mistakes to be rectified. I understand you would assume I would keep quiet if I won but you may find Cassava withholding my winnings due to an out of character bet or loss caused by technical fault. I happily gamble elsewhere on line without issue and whilst i've not yet garnered many posts on Casinomeister I feel you may be judging my authenticity due to lack of posts.

Ben

 

[benmooe]

To add: Was just about to take screenshots of my history but they only go back 1 month. If anyone knows where I can get the rest I will post them up for people if it helps people verify my legitimacy.

 

[Nifty29]

Hey Nifty,

I understand your scepticism and I totally get what you're saying.

The bug was caused by a flash event handler which takes the click input and adds the wager. As it's an overlay to a live video feed rather than a fully integral game it is going to be less stable than the non-live software. It is usually seen with a coloured box around the selection and the input sticked to "on" instead of "on" then "off" (Bit of flash jargon, sorry if I'm being too techy), Kind of like if you held down your mouse button when adjusting the bet it would keep increasing. I sent the full bug reports to Cassava and they have access to my betting history which I am more than happy to provide on here if it warrants any kind of investigative assistance. There is no wrong button that I could have pressed as they do not work like online slots where there is a max bet option. You literally select the incremental chip value and click until you are happy with the wager during the set countdown period of 10 seconds.

The issue with their live casino offering is that you don't confirm your bet and then play the hand. It literally takes the chips without confirmation if they are in the bet area. You find that most other Live casinos have a confirm button that you must press otherwise your bet is not taken, This allows any mistakes to be rectified. I understand you would assume I would keep quiet if I won but you may find Cassava withholding my winnings due to an out of character bet or loss caused by technical fault. I happily gamble elsewhere on line without issue and whilst i've not yet garnered many posts on Casinomeister I feel you may be judging my authenticity due to lack of posts.

Ben

I am totally keeping your tenure here out of the equation. I would say the same....and have done...to anybody else.

I'm certain you would have kept the winnings....and you know you would have...and trying to nullify that fact by saying "they probably wouldn't pay etc" is a cop-out. If you REALLY think they would do such a thing, why on earth were you even playing there in the first place? Nice try

If you can PROVE it was a bug I.e. that NOTHING you did caused a $900 bet to be placed on the table, then you should either post it here (there are good techies around) or ask for expert review via PM. I'm skeptical about whether this could be proven, but I'm not an expert on flash so I will yield to those who are.

The reality of the situation is that you are only complaining because the bet lost. We wouldn't be discussing flash bugs etc if it had been a winner.

You can ask Max if he will attempt to contact 888, but don't be surprised if he can't or won't.

The best advice I can give is to stick to Accredited casinos in future, or at least do your homework. The web is full of players being ripped off by this mob. Caveat Emptor.


Re: your play history.

Sorry Ben, but it is really irrelevant. Anyone is capable of making the odd big bet, either due to going on a bender or boredom or whatever. Remember...you DID go to the VIP room with larger minimums beforehand, so one could surmise that you were going to make larger bets.

The only bet that matters is the disputed bet.

FWIW, I don't doubt your legitimacy at all. I just don't see how you were "ripped off" here, and until some experts here see your evidence and concur with you, then it will stay that way.

 

[maxd]

You can ask Max if he will attempt to contact 888 ....

Sorry, not an option. See here for details: 888 and related properties are ignoring player complaints

 

[benmooe]

Sorry for the late response, Have been busy with work stuff.

Max - Whilst you are not able to message them yourselves, Would you have any contact details for 888 apart from manager or support? They seem to be robots there using pre-written responses and I would like to speak to someone who would be able to assist me.

Thanks