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Burned by 888/Cassava bonus rules? Let me know.

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by maxd, Feb 18, 2014.

    Feb 18, 2014
  1. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    Does this describe your situation? You've played at one of their sites, taken a bonus, etc. At some later date you play at another site, another bonus, and BOOM! They say you've violated their Terms and nail you for "bonus abuse" or whatever. Bottom line is they confiscate your winnings and pretty much end the conversation there.

    In particular it's these 888/Cassava Terms that I'm referring to here:
    FYI, there may be variations on these Terms at the individual sites. For whatever reason they seem to have buried the T&Cs at many of their sites making them harder than ever to get at.

    The problem: they never say what other sites are theirs! They've published partial lists, occasionally refer to a few connected sites, but in all the years I've been doing what I do I've never seen complete disclosure of all the Cassava sites including their many white labels. The most complete list I've ever seen can be found via the list of "licensed operators" You must register/login in order to see the link. -- the Remote Gambling page at gibraltar.gov.gi -- but that information may or may not be complete and certainly isn't disclosed at all of the individual white labels.

    So ... how is player supposed to know that they are breaking the "have or previously had an account with any of the websites owned or operated by the Company" clause? The point is you can't, you'll only know for sure that a site you've played at is "owned or operated by the Company" when they tell you it is. So they can confiscate your winnings for something you could not reasonably have known or prevented.

    Why do I care? To make a long story short there is a SLIM chance that we may be able to raise this specific issue with the Gibraltar regulator. The issue came up at ICE in London a couple weeks ago and there's a chance that we may get access to the powers that be. That's not a common occurance so I'd like as much data in my case file as I can get in order to support and press the issue, should the opportunity present itself.

    If you've been caught in this situation please let me know, either here, via PM or the PAB submission form. Obviously I cannot guarantee any results but your information will be added to my file and possibly used if and when we are able to present the issue to the Gambling Commissioner.

    I repeat, this is specifically for cases involving so-called "bonus abuse" related to having taken a bonus at one or more 888/Cassava properties. If the properties involved clearly declare themselves to be 888/Cassava then your case may not be relevant to our file.

    If you have any questions or concerns please feel free to ask.

    Regards,
    Max Drayman, Player Complaints Manager, Casinomeister.com
     
    5 people like this.
  2. Feb 18, 2014
  3. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    It also seems they apply these terms subjectively. I recently took a SUB at 888.games and redeemed it and cashed out OK. I had also, a year previously, taken one at 888.casino another Cassava site. Both occasions I was paid OK after the 72-hour pending. My withdrawals at these two were 90 and 130 respectively, off of small deposits of 20 and 25 respectively.

    Now, I get the feeling that had I won a more significant amount, I could have run into issues as Max describes. Obviously in my case the fact both casinos have 888 names told me enough, and I actually went on live chat on the second occasion to clear the bonus and point this fact out to them, and I was told no problem.

    The problem seems to be the endless list of bingo sites they have as well as white label casinos. A player who has been around a decade will have almost certainly have played at at least one if Europe-based.

    IF they have a time-limit clause, i.e. you took a SUB say more than 2 years ago at another property, and that clears you for another then that's OK. I can't see one however but it may be an 'unwritten' policy which is even more worrying.
     
  4. Feb 18, 2014
  5. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Also beware if you SE'd from a Cassava/888 site!

    Dragonfish powered sites are usually Cassava too. It will say so at the bottom of the front page.
    When you hit an online bingo site, you will be hard pushed to find one that DOESN’T hold the Cassava name somewhere. However, there is a bit of confusion surrounding the whole Cassava Enterprise. This is because although Cassava is not actually a bingo network as such, they do MANAGE bingo sites for other networks and provide them with proper licensing and payment software. This is why you often see the sentence: “Licensed in Gibraltar through Cassava Enterprises” on sites that are within the Dragonfish, Ignite and Joy of Bingo Networks. Gibraltar is one of the jurisdictions included on the UK Gambling Commission's whitelist as a result of the Gambling Act 2005.

    Sites Utilising the Cassava Services:
    1.Dragonfish
    2.Joy of Bingo
    3.Ignite
    4.United Bingo
    5.Cassava and 888Holdings

    A Word of Caution:
    Buried in the small print of the terms and conditions is a provision that if you self-exclude from any Cassava operated site, you are not allowed to open or run an account at ANY OTHER Cassava operated site for the period of the self exclusion - and if they find out that you have, any funds in the account will not be paid back to you regardless of whether they are deposits or winnings. Likewise, playing too much free bingo (over 120 games a week), or "bonus abuse" (which is not clearly defined in the terms and conditions) at any of their sites can result in being banned from ALL of them.

    That is definitely rogue behaviour - the policy of all decent sites (and I believe this is in the licensing regulations somewhere) is that SE'd players should have the account neutralized, i.e. not being paid winnings and deposits refunded.

    All Bingo Sites Run by Cassava Enterprises:

    Telly Talk Bingo
    Bubble Bonus Bingo
    Stash Bingo
    Bingo3X
    Posh Bingo
    Glitter Bingo
    Costa Bingo
    Big Brother Bingo
    City Bingo
    Tasty Bingo
    Sing Bingo
    Robin Hood Bingo
    Polo Bingo
    Fancy Bingo
    Bingostreet
    Moon Bingo
    Red Bus Bingo
    888 Bingo
    Diva Bingo
    Coffee Bingo
    Nova Bingo
    Celeb Bingo
    888 Bonus Bingo
    El Cartonazo Bingo
    Bingo Fabulous
    888 Games Bingo
    King Solomons Bingo
    888 Ladies
    Wink Bingo
    Silk Bingo
    Fairys Bingo
    We Want Bingo
    Sparkling Bingo
    Bingo Please
    Bingo Night In
    Bingo Me Happy
    Bingo Scotland
    Mirror Bingo
    Rollover Bingo
    Gossip Bingo
    Red Carpet Bingo
    Bingo Giving
    Champagne Bingo
    Brits Bingo
    Think Bingo
    Up Your Bingo
    Sunday Mail Bingo
    Two Fat Ladies
    We Luv Bingo
    Spectra Bingo
    Genie Bingo
    Sophie's Bingo
    Bingo Parlour
    Bingo Jetset
    Foxy Zero
    Bingo Ireland
    Foxy Bingo
    Get Minted Bingo
    Bingo Hollywood
    Daily Record Bingo
    Bingo Dome
    Little Big Bingo
    Bingo Cove
    Cheeky Bingo
    Kiss My Bingo
    Pink Ladies Bingo
    Bingo Bongo
    Bingolicious
    Bingo Yard
    3am Bingo
    Bingo Wags
    Glorious Bingo
    4TheGame Bingo
    Bingo Waves
    Gold Medal Bingo
    Abc Bingo.co.uk
    Net Palace Bingo
    Banana Gold Bingo
    Pink Ribbon Bingo
    ITV Bingo
    OfferXBingo.co.uk
    Banjo Bingo
    Bingo-lottery.co.uk
    GPL Bingo
    Online Bingo Chief
    Big Red Games Bingo
    Bingotime
    Grace's Bingo
    Paint The Town Bingo
    Biggest Bingo
    Happy Slots Bingo
    Peachy Bingo
    Bingo 3X
    Hippo Bingo
    People Bingo
    Bingo 4 Her
    Candis Bingo
    People's Postcode Lottery's Bingo
    Bingo Allday
    Jackpot Bingo
    Pink Bingo
    Bingo Ballroom
    Bingo Online
    Bingo Bonus
    Plus Bingo
    Bingo Boudoir
    Bingo Broadway
    Closer Bingo
    Bingo Calling
    Club Bingo
    Lippy Bingo
    Prize Bingo
    Bingo Chatter
    Cricinfo Bingo
    Bingo Flirt
    Daisy Bingo
    Loads Of Bingo
    Bingo Gringo
    Loquax Bingo
    Easyodds.com Bingo
    Bingo Hearts
    Safari Bingo
    Shampoo Bingo
    Bingo House
    Female Bingo
    Lotto24 Bingo
    Bingo In The Sun
    Flipside Bingo
    Smart Live Bingo
    Lucky Player Bingo
    Snap Bingo
    Lucky Surf bingo
    So Bingo
    luv2bingo
    Magic Bingo
    Mile High Bingo
    Get Lucky Bingo
    Million 21 Bingo
    Spin Win Bingo
    STV Bingo
    Tickle Bingo
    Sunday Life Bingo
    Timeout Female Bingo
    UK-Bingo
    Top Ten Bingo
    UK Win Bingo
    Whiterose Bingo
    Bingo Tryst
    Bingo Wag
    Vegas Bingo
    Bingo Hall

    Blacklisted Cassava Bingo Sites to Avoid:

    Cyber Bingo
     
  6. Feb 18, 2014
  7. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    I believe it's fair to say the "subjective" is Standard Operating Procedure for this group. They'll invoke the rule(s) if and when they see fit, no explanation required or to be expected.
     
  8. Feb 18, 2014
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They have also practiced deliberate entrapment in the past. Whenever I left the 888 website, and exit popup kept inviting me to try out their sister site, Reef Club, and showed me the juicy welcome bonus. They STILL operate a deliberate marketing policy of entrapment as when a player registers at one site, they are added to the mailing list for all the spam invites from all their other sites.

    The one thing they have got partially right is their across the board self exclusion, but it is currently designed to make money from the weak willed as they don't check for a self exclusion when a player signs up, only when they win. They then reverse the result by treating the DEPOSITS as money lost by the player, even if they had won.

    This policy can lead to some serious trouble for the group, as they are both a "no can do" here and Gibraltar more or less rubber stamps their decisions. Players who deposit by credit card and get screwed because of a previous self exclusion are going to be getting advised to take the issue up with their banks here in the UK, as our own regulatory bodies will refuse to help as 888 "is not within our jurisdiction". Most casinos DO refund the deposits because they are aware that not doing so exposes them to having players use more formal methods of recovery. If Cassava are routinely confiscating deposits, they must be suffering a high volume of chargebacks. It will be worse because they even PENALISE players for not depositing via credit or debit card because eWallet deposits have double WR attached, possibly even more now.
     
  10. Feb 18, 2014
  11. dunover

    dunover Unofficial T&C's Editor Staff Member CAG PABnononaccred PABnonaccred PABinit mm3 webmeister

    Occupation:
    International Money Launderer
    Location:
    the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
    Well VWM, aren't Cassava the government in Gibraltar.....? ;)
     
  12. Feb 18, 2014
  13. lausitzer28

    lausitzer28 Banned User - twitwad

    Occupation:
    daytrader
    Location:
    Lusatia
    i reveive every day a 888 spam mail :D
     
  14. Feb 18, 2014
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They are a VERY large employer. This creates a significant conflict of interest for the government there. If Cassava leave, Gibraltar's economy is ****ed. This is a big problem as the government can be blackmailed by a company they are supposed to be regulating. If a law is passed that Cassava don't like, they can threaten to pull out. It would be very hard for the government to stand up to this kind of bullying. It's a problem that most of these small nation states have when offering online gambling licenses. Larger countries can stand up to some pretty big companies, but even the biggest countries can find themselves bullied into submission by the biggest global conglomerates. The USA vs "Big Pharma" is one example, the "West vs Oil" is another.
     
  16. Feb 18, 2014
  17. banditboy2006

    banditboy2006 Experienced Member

    Location:
    uk
    add iceland bingo to the list
     

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