XXLclub casino disappears with players' money!

[hakapuku]

Playtech casino does it again!

When one year ago Casino Fortune group of playtech casinos disappeared with players' money Playtech didn't compensate a dime to any player. Now the same will happen again with XXLclub casino. I think that Playtech itself should be rogued at this website.

Here is my thread that i created more than a month ago. It is still very actual as we can see:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/playtech-and-its-rogue-sons.20880/

And look who replied me second in that thread! It was XXLclubcasino representative who claimed that i say the wrong things about playtech, and that 99% of the problems with playtech casinos are connected to bonus issues. And now what about playtech casinos disappearing with players money? Hey, XXLclub representative, will you reply me this time?

"Again 99% of any casino disputes are raised due to bonuses. To stay out of any trouble play without any bonuses and ask the casino to increase your comp rewards accordingly. You will enjoy online gambling 10 times more." - XXLclubcasino. Sounds like- when somebody rapes you- just relax and try to have fun.

 

[BingoT]

Someone else also

Hi
I Played at XXL CLub Casino and ended up winning. Now i cant get my money, and absolutely no contact is available from their support. Can anyone help?

Jan Trixa
Username etc i can post if needed.

 

[vinylweatherman]

We had the same thing with Action Online. It went bust while pretending all was well apart from some technical issues. The same with XXLClub, the rep was very active in the forum, and was making the casino look like a candidate for accreditation, yet within months they make it to rogue. Was the rep an innocent party to this, or an accomplice in a deception by encouraging casinomeister members to come along and try them out while knowing they were in serious trouble.

It is clear that Playtech offer NO player protection, and on top of this they do not seem to vet their licencees too well for financial stability. This puts them on a par with RTG, and shows that having a responsive rep is no indication of the quality of the operation.

 

[Trixa07]

PLAYTECH.... BE AWARE

HI
I must say that if it is true what is said in this string that PLAYTECH does not have any means of securing player funds in cases of bankrupcy... then I'm am not going to play there again and can nothing but STRONGLY advise others to find other software.
Playtech as software provider and the gaming licensing authority (which i can't find at XXL CLub) should be taking care of players.

I sincerely hope That Playtech will be roqued until a serious consideration concernig player funds disappering from bancrupt casinos has been submitted from PLAYTECH.

 

[paul02085]

Nothing surprising here to me. Playtech has been overtaking RTG for the last couple of years as most scummy software provider.
No way in hell would i put a cent in a Playtech site (even if i could ).

If you gamble at a Playtech site you are a REAL gambler.

 

[cyprean]

If you gamble at a Playtech site you are a REAL gambler.

QFT.

 

[chuchu59]

Cant we just merge the 2 threads. The title is the same anyway.

 

[GI Joe]

Several playtech have a new method in delaying payments.

They return deposit by checks - that will buy them about a month delay...If the cashflow in the casino is very low - a month is not that bad

EuroGrand and 32Vegas are doing it!

GI Joe

 

[LOOKAWAY]

Hi my first post here was about xxl club i came all pissed because off the problems i was having with them and got banned for a week because off it.

So i was right in the end lol anyway it sucks i thought xxl club looked like a top operation i just dont no how a casino can go bust with the odds allways in there favour ?

Also i have a $300 balance at 32vegas i dont normaly play at playtechs because i dont like there games but i will allways play the buy $20 get $100 deal.

I played that deal out at 32vegas then made a cash deposit small got my deposit up to $300 like 3 months ago and still cant cashout because they say they havent received my fax back form on file i can only send it attached by email because off no fax but they get my emails because they dont get sent back to me and also they reply to emails that have no mention off a cash out.

I realy could do with some help there mr meister i will beg i cant lose $300 more if they go bust to. :notworthy

 

[maxd]

I realy could do with some help there mr meister i will beg i cant lose $300 more if they go bust to.

As you can tell from our previous posts on the XXL subject (see here) we are in touch with the casino manager, we are encouraging them to take the player complaints seriously and they have responded positively. At this point the ball is in their court ... so let's give them a chance to make good on their promises.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Finally a reply from XXL Club!

First let me apologize to all players for the lack of response and the ongoing payments problems.

Like I have tried to explain previously in single posts to players we have relocated our offices and part of our staff to a new office.

During the move we also decided to change the way we operate the casino from a partially external management (email support, fraud, finance) to a fully integrated operation where only our own staff will be responsible for the all operation.

During the move we have encounter a couple of serious problems mostly legal issues that needed to be clarified and handled before being able to make the move.

We are now almost operational and "only" need Playtech to reconfigure our casino to support the new structure.

All players that have a pending withdrawal with XXL Club Casino that wasn't handled by our previous payment processor should please PM me. We will arrange wire transfer or Neteller/Moneybooker payments within the next weeks, hopefully before Xmas.

To by knowledge we have 13 pending player payments and 4 open Affiliates payments.

I hope this post will reassure some of the casinomeister members that we won't just disappear with players funds.

Our goal is to resume full casino operation by January and operate every single casino processes ourselves. This is the only way to be able to fully satisfy players in a timely manner without depending from external process we have unfortunately no control over.

Thank you all for your patience,
Frank

 

[The Dude]

Hi Frank,

Welcome back to the forum:

To by knowledge we have 13 pending player payments and 4 open Affiliates payments...

That's a mere 17 emails you could have periodically sent to let these people know you were still viable. This moving server bit has taken (as far as I can tell) a couple of months. Keeping your customers and affiliates in the loop during this apparent mucked up move should have been a priority. Just my 2 Pfennigs.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Brian you are absolutely right, communication is everything!

So far I know all players were informed and until last week we also had our 24H chat support open for players even so we didn't take any players deposits since the end of October.

Anyway we had a lot of trouble to solve from new staff members to legal incorporation and contracts with new partners. Honestly at some points I wasn't even able to follow every move and changes myself.

This shouldn't be an excuse. I'm not looking for one, what matters the most to me right now is that all players get paid what is due to them. Neither Playtech nor we are interested in operating rogue casinos and be labeled as such.

Prior to reopening our self managed casino I will make sure every player get paid, preferably before New Year so to be able to start a clean new operation!

Thank you for keeping the communication upright and staying objective.

 

[cyprean]

So you are taking deposits again?! Great news!


/sarcarms

On a more serious tone, after 2 months of silence, why would you feel now that players would trust your casino anymore ?

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Hi Ceypran

We are not taking new deposits at the moment until Playtech reconfigure our casino for the new payment gateways and before we sort all pending withdrawals.

I don't need you to trust our casino or not, this is not my point at the moment. I first want to sort everything out our players satisfaction. If we succeed we will get the appropriate credit for it. After that it will be up to the players to play at our casino or not. I wont be forcing anyone to play at XXL Club.

I'm confident that when we will have full control of all casino processes from A to Z we will be able to offer the top class service we always wanted for our players.

PS: As a side note, we have always keep the players informed and our chat support was answering all players inquiries until last week when we switch of the chat support office and send our operators in vacation until we accept new players deposits. Not answering to post in a forum is not being silence. A casino operator can't track all forums in the world and answer to all posts mentioning either playtech or XXL. One to one answers to the players have priority to forum posts IMO.

 

[vinylweatherman]

A couple of years ago, this might have been forgiveable and trust would have returned eventually, BUT, look around you at what is happening to the industry, players being ripped off left, right, and centre. Casinos that really HAVE gone bust have done EXACTLY as XXLClub has done, except they have pretended. They spin yarns about moves, changes of processors, etc.

This move was CLEARLY not "planned by a 5 star operation", it had all the hallmarks of something you were forced into with no time to plan an orderly changeover. XXLClub is not some huge multinational, and this move should have been over in a couple of weeks. It has taken since October, and even now, three months later, is still not complete. During this time, information has been limited, and what has come out has turned out to be innaccurate.

Funnily enough, there has been a complaint about another Playtech, Fastwin, also no longer responding to a player. Being a Playtech really does not help, as it is well known that when a Playtech goes under, the players are left high and dry - hardly surprising then that panic sets in when a two week move turns into 3 months of non-payment, even if for only 13 players and 4 affiliates.

13 unpaid players and 4 unpaid affiliates can do a lot of damage if they know where to air their displeasure.

I am also worried about these "legal issues" - this does not sound like a simple office move and change to in-house operations, this sounds like you fell foul of something, and were FORCED into this action. Why would Playtech hang around trying to get you up & running, surely they don't get their fees while the casino is offline.

Anyone operating a casino with software whose other licencees are gladly ripping off players, who have no real means of redress through the software vendor, must realise that they must go the extra mile to convince players that they are somehow different. Just look at how the few reputable RTG operations have to work to separate themselves from the rogue hordes.

I don't think anything short of full accreditation will save XXLClub now, as this will mean Bryan has had a really good look at you, and met the owners and management, and approved the juristiction.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I clearly accept the arch critic addressed to XXL Club. The move to an independent casino wasn't planed like you said but we decided as a group to make this move, due to different opinions about how things were handled on a daily basis.

I would like to clarify that Playtech as a company as absolutely nothing to do with what happened and that the casino owners decided to go a different way, this after analyzing in details how the casino was running.

Please keep in mind that our main market as always been Russia and will remain Russia. Due to Russian law changes we had to rapidly make structural changes so not to risk having the B&M casinos that are part of the same group closed.

Honestly I also don't think that we need to be saved by anyone! I like to participate in this forum as the members are well informed, interesting and knowledgeable but casinomeister is only representing a infinite small part of our target market and will only have a small impact on our global revenue.

Nevertheless one unpaid player is one too much and we need to correct this.

 

[The Dude]

I clearly accept the arch critic addressed to XXL Club. The move to an independent casino wasn't planed like you said but we decided as a group to make this move, due to different opinions about how things were handled on a daily basis.

But why keep your players and afiliates in the dark? As a group, did you decide to cut off communications to these people?

I thought that the players come first in a 5 star operation.

Honestly I also don't think that we need to be saved by anyone! I like to participate in this forum as the members are well informed, interesting and knowledgeable but casinomeister is only representing a infinite small part of our target market and will only have a small impact on our global revenue.

There may be only a few Russians hanging around (only around 430 visited Casinomeister last month), but don't forget - Casinomeister is much more than just a message board. It would be ill-advised to throw caution to the wind by underestimating Casinomeister's reach

 

[maxd]

... casinomeister is only representing a infinite small part of our target market and will only have a small impact on our global revenue.

Are you sure about that? I'm not saying that bad press on CM is going to break you but for every member you see here who posts there are a thousand readers who read and remember. And what you do here becomes part of the public record ... _forever_.

I applaud your participation here for a variety of reasons ... but you wouldn't be the first casino manager who thought the message boards don't matter much and found out the hard way that that isn't quite the way it is.

 

[aghastik8]

I clearly accept the arch critic addressed to XXL Club. The move to an independent casino wasn't planed like you said but we decided as a group to make this move, due to different opinions about how things were handled on a daily basis.

I would like to clarify that Playtech as a company as absolutely nothing to do with what happened and that the casino owners decided to go a different way, this after analyzing in details how the casino was running.

Please keep in mind that our main market as always been Russia and will remain Russia. Due to Russian law changes we had to rapidly make structural changes so not to risk having the B&M casinos that are part of the same group closed.

Honestly I also don't think that we need to be saved by anyone! I like to participate in this forum as the members are well informed, interesting and knowledgeable but casinomeister is only representing a infinite small part of our target market and will only have a small impact on our global revenue.

Nevertheless one unpaid player is one too much and we need to correct this.

I have just sent you a message regarding 1045 euro stuck in my Xxlclub casino account.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I'm know we didn't fully disclose our move with affiliates or players but all of them were clearly informed about our moves and the technical difficulties associated with it.

As you know every emails sent or forum post is directly made public and sometimes a little extra cautions is required. Without going too much into details you might understand that it might be smarter not to publicly disclose all upcoming organizational changes when you deal with governmental organizations.

Don't miss interpret what I was writing about your board. It's a precious entity in the online gambling industry and a great way to "self" regulate the industry. I fully accept your constructive critics and will do my best to solve the issues we are involved in. I've always been receptive to comments posted here at casinomeister and will continue to do so in the future.

Labeling a casino as unresponsive because he doesn't closely monitor the forum and post back is in my opinion not right but I will have to deal with it. I know that we have answer every players that have/had withdrawals problems and also answered all the PM send to me that were forwarded to my email account . Bryan and Max were kind enough to drop me an email alarming me of the 4 forum posts regarding player complains, thank you for this extra service!

 

[chuchu59]

Frank,

I am afraid you will have to post everyday for the next 2 weeks to appease players' fears.

 

[Trixa07]

hi xxl club
i guess i can expect my money now then.

i sincerely hope so

Jan Trixa

 

[maxd]

Labeling a casino as unresponsive because he doesn't closely monitor the forum and post back is in my opinion not right ....

No arguements there. Some casinos don't, and won't, post on message boards at all. I for one say "hurrah!" for your willingness to participate here. I've been in the biz for almost a decade and I can tell you that having an active presence here is a good thing for your casino, as long as everyone gets paid in a timely fashion, etc, etc.

I don't think anyone is going to blacklist you because you don't frequent the boards. Proper payouts + not available on the message boards = a decent casino; Proper payouts + responsiveness to message board issues = a better casino. See what I mean?

 

[winbig]

No arguements there. Some casinos don't, and won't, post on message boards at all. I for one say "hurrah!" for your willingness to participate here. I've been in the biz for almost a decade and I can tell you that having an active presence here is a good thing for your casino, as long as everyone gets paid in a timely fashion, etc, etc.

I don't think anyone is going to blacklist you because you don't frequent the boards. Proper payouts + not available on the message boards = a decent casino; Proper payouts + responsiveness to message board issues = a better casino. See what I mean?

<devil's advocate>

But if the player(s) were kept in the loop to begin with, why would they need to bring their problem to the forum? (This goes for any casino, not any specific)

 

[vinylweatherman]

I clearly accept the arch critic addressed to XXL Club. The move to an independent casino wasn't planed like you said but we decided as a group to make this move, due to different opinions about how things were handled on a daily basis.

I would like to clarify that Playtech as a company as absolutely nothing to do with what happened and that the casino owners decided to go a different way, this after analyzing in details how the casino was running.

Please keep in mind that our main market as always been Russia and will remain Russia. Due to Russian law changes we had to rapidly make structural changes so not to risk having the B&M casinos that are part of the same group closed.

Honestly I also don't think that we need to be saved by anyone! I like to participate in this forum as the members are well informed, interesting and knowledgeable but casinomeister is only representing a infinite small part of our target market and will only have a small impact on our global revenue.

Nevertheless one unpaid player is one too much and we need to correct this.

This looks like Russia changed the law, and the owners decided to "jump ship", leaving everyone in the lurch. This "move" was more of a scramble to get things restructured to adhere to the new laws, get hold of more investors to "own" the casino, and engage a new processor. At the same time, the old processor also "jumped ship" and refused to complete the payments that had already been placed in their system, but didn't bother to tell the management at XXLClub. SOME players were clearly not kept up to date on what was happening, as these are the ones who have posted here. The WEBSITE could also have been used to carry a message as to the current status of the move, and by changing and dating this status message regularly, players could see that the casino was still a currently running entity.

The comment about being unable to monitor all the forums is true, no-one could be expected to keep on top of them all, but where you are an active member, such as here, a sudden 2 month silence DOES get interpreted negatively, it would not have been hard to keep up to date with forums you participate in.

There may not be too many Russian players here, but I am sure they have their own forums, and may very well be discussing this 3 month hiatus there, but in Russian. If any of these Russian players have been left owed money, this has probably also been aired to the Russian customer base.

It would have been better to ensure ALL outstanding payments had been made BEFORE this temporary 3 month closure, it was unpaid players that started this thread, not those complaining they could no longer open new accounts, and/or deposit.

After 3 months, there is also the danger that current players have simply moved on, they are hardly likely to just give up playing while they wait for an unspecified amount of time to get back into XXLClub, there are other offerings for the Russian market.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

hi xxl club
i guess i can expect my money now then.

i sincerely hope so

Jan Trixa

Hi Trixa

Please PM me your XXL Club account.

Thanks
Frank

 

[nottsccole]

I am owed 1804.

I sent a private message to XXLClub's rep.

I've been told repeatedly by customer service that I would be paid as soon as the technical problems with XXLClub are resolved. Although, their customer service has not responded to any of my emails in at least two weeks. The rep on this forum told me in a PM that I was on Playtech's bonus banned list. Now I have a few casino accounts, with Playtech, and I've gotten bonuses on more or less all of them, but I doubt that is true that I am completely banned, I get bonus offers frequently for my accounts on Bet365 and a few other sites as well.

Anyway, XXLClub's response was that because I apparently appear on this list, he would "try" to "at least" get me back my deposit. With the obvious implication that he would be thieving my winnings after they've already been delayed several weeks.

Not very reassuring. I'll let you know if I actually get paid, but until then I would definitely avoid the casino at all costs.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I am owed 1804.

I sent a private message to XXLClub's rep.

I've been told repeatedly by customer service that I would be paid as soon as the technical problems with XXLClub are resolved. Although, their customer service has not responded to any of my emails in at least two weeks. The rep on this forum told me in a PM that I was on Playtech's bonus banned list. Now I have a few casino accounts, with Playtech, and I've gotten bonuses on more or less all of them, but I doubt that is true that I am completely banned, I get bonus offers frequently for my accounts on Bet365 and a few other sites as well.

Anyway, XXLClub's response was that because I apparently appear on this list, he would "try" to "at least" get me back my deposit. With the obvious implication that he would be thieving my winnings after they've already been delayed several weeks.

Not very reassuring. I'll let you know if I actually get paid, but until then I would definitely avoid the casino at all costs.

You know exactly that your playing behavior is typical for bonus abusing and you will for sure get your deposit back. Casinos can decide to lift your sanction or you were flagged on the Playtech platform at a later date.

By the way three of the players that are complaining here and that have PMed me for withdrawals are flagged as bonus abuser on the playtech platform or even flagged for fraud.

The problem is always the same most of the time players posting complains in the forum are very often blocked for fraud or flagged as bonus abuser.

How to best handle bonus abuser is a very tricky task but slowly and surely we will make full right of our T&C to minimize our exposure to bonus abusers.

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

9.8 We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to offer and advertise from time to time promotions, bonuses or other special offers and each such offer will be subject to specific terms and conditions which will be valid for a limited period of time. In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit. In addition, we reserve the right to withhold or otherwise decline or reverse any pay-out or winning amount or amend any policy in the event that we suspect that you are abusing or attempting to abuse any of the following: (i) bonuses; (ii) other promotions; or (iii) specific policy or rules determined in respect of an existing game or a new game.

For over a year we have been paying bonus abusers without further investigation but this will definitely come to an end.

Fair gaming should also apply to players and not only to operators at least this is my point of view.

I honestly believe that honest players will be better of not to take any bonuses and get a higher comp ratio and kickback bonuses without any restrictions.

We are now finalizing a new bonus concept that will get rid of signup bonuses. We will take into account that our new player signup rate will drop but as a counterpart our retention rate will dramatically improve. I'm sure this will be the way the online gambling industry will head in the near future. Deposits bonuses only create major problems for players and operators and it's just not worse it!

 

[sdaddy]

For over a year we have been paying bonus abusers without further investigation but this will definitely come to an end.

Fair gaming should also apply to players and not only to operators at least this is my point of view.

I honestly believe that honest players will be better of not to take any bonuses and get a higher comp ratio and kickback bonuses without any restrictions.

We are now finalizing a new bonus concept that will get rid of signup bonuses. We will take into account that our new player signup rate will drop but as a counterpart our retention rate will dramatically improve. I'm sure this will be the way the online gambling industry will head in the near future. Deposits bonuses only create major problems for players and operators and it's just not worse it!

So why not just eliminate your problem by implementing the new bonus structure?

Addressing the issue by using subjective "bonus abuse" criteria to confiscate winnings, as done in these recent cases, is not going to look good in the eyes of many players.

 

[nottsccole]

So why not just eliminate your problem by implementing the new bonus structure?

Addressing the issue by using subjective "bonus abuse" criteria to confiscate winnings, as done in these recent cases, is not going to look good in the eyes of many players.

Especially after disappearing for a few weeks and not responding to emails. For what it's worth, I am definitely not bonus banned. I talked to live chat at a casino I still play at regularly that is on playtech and requested a small deposit bonus and was able to get one with relative ease (they had a holiday promotion going on so good timing).

On a sidenote, I reread the message from the rep, and I need to make an apology to him because I misinterpreted what he was saying and I want to correct that. I thought he was saying he would see what could be done about sending my deposit to me, and he actually said I would "at least" get my deposit back and he would see what can be done about my winnings, so I feel much more positive about seeing my cashout. Apologies for that mistake, XXL rep, and for the tone I took because I thought you were saying nothing was going to get fixed instead of what on a reread seems like you are going to push for my cashout plus winnings to get processed.

I'll keep you guys posted on what happens with my cashout as I get more information.

 

[vinylweatherman]

It does not matter if you are on the banned list, they gave the bonus, and provided you met the terms and conditions, they must play you, and THEN ban you for further promotions.

I have seen their terms, and it is IMPOSSIBLE to "abuse" their bonus WITHOUT breaching the excluded games rule and placing a huge bet with your entire bankroll at the beginning of the game.

The rep has explained before that Playtech have absolutely NOTHING to do with the XXLClub situation, therefore any decision about payment also has NOTHING whatsoever to do with Playtech.

The rep has made an accusation here, and had better be able to back it up with evidence should this go to dispute, or it should be regarded as libel.

I have little confidence that this will all come right in the forseeable future, Timescales for this move have been repeatedly put back. Promises of 2 weeks were made early on, and it has now been three months, with the latest date nearly a month away.

While the rep says these "banned" players should have opted for a higher comps rate rather than bonuses, but was this option actually on offer at the time they played?

Since this casino's intended market is Russia, perhaps we should leave it that way, as they like it so much, and only play there if we are Russian.

 

[hakapuku]

I am afraid that this xxlclub has no intention to pay anybody. Look at their rep- he comes with accusations right from the start. And ,offcourse, he uses the most undefinable definition in this industry: bonus abuse. Anybody who wins with the bonus is a bonus abuser. We know that.

 

[hakapuku]

I am owed 1804.

I sent a private message to XXLClub's rep.

I've been told repeatedly by customer service that I would be paid as soon as the technical problems with XXLClub are resolved. Although, their customer service has not responded to any of my emails in at least two weeks. The rep on this forum told me in a PM that I was on Playtech's bonus banned list. Now I have a few casino accounts, with Playtech, and I've gotten bonuses on more or less all of them, but I doubt that is true that I am completely banned, I get bonus offers frequently for my accounts on Bet365 and a few other sites as well.

Anyway, XXLClub's response was that because I apparently appear on this list, he would "try" to "at least" get me back my deposit. With the obvious implication that he would be thieving my winnings after they've already been delayed several weeks.

Not very reassuring. I'll let you know if I actually get paid, but until then I would definitely avoid the casino at all costs.

you must be paid in full! If you are banned from receiving bonuses at playtech casinos that doesn't mean that you are not eligible to receive the winnings from the bonuses that you have already received. It is absolute bullshit! As I told already, xxl club has no intention to pay , they are roguesters!

 

[phynqster]

It is very funny hearing the term bonus abuser, since I believe I came from the casino that coined that phrase. When we originally labeled players as bonus abusers, it was a way of identifying the free chippers, who would constantly beg for free chips and huge bonuses and were taking up the majority of the sales reps time. I than changed the term to advantage player, which is what we are talking about here. An advantage player is just that someone looking for an advantage. I can honestly say that yes I identified a number of those players including entire Countries (LOL), but made sure every one was paid!! Usually paid them very slowly, too frustrate them, but also to make sure their credit card cleared the bank before I was sending them what amounted to cash, and made them jump through hoops, hell I was an Advantage Manager hoping they would give in and just give up, but I felt they were taking advantage of me I would take advantage of them. After they were finally paid in full, that is when their accounts were closed to make sure it did not happen again. Also I want to point out I loved to encourage the bonuses that advantage players would take early in their history with us, because I could identify those players early and it was a lot easier paying $100.00 right than , than waiting for the player to become a regular than popping me for 5 or $10,000.00 one day. And that does happen if a casino does not monitor their players.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I didn't really wanted to raise the bonus abuser issues in the same thread so not to change the subject of this thread and focus on paying the players we owe money to.

Also I feel that it was worse mentioning and it's not a coincidence that the biggest complain in the forum are coming not from our regular players but from new one time depositors one time forum posters that clearly abuse the welcome bonus from playtech casinos.

By the way we are not stealing any $ from any account as long as we refund a player deposit. The winnings might get confiscated as they were won in brake of our T&C. The word stealing is not appropriate in this relation.

And let me reassure here that all players especially our loyal players will get paid no regular winnings will be confiscated and winnings will be paid in full.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I didn't really wanted to raise the bonus abuser issues in the same thread so not to change the subject of this thread and focus on paying the players we owe money to.

Also I feel that it was worse mentioning and it's not a coincidence that the biggest complain in the forum are coming not from our regular players but from new one time depositors one time forum posters that clearly abuse the welcome bonus from playtech casinos.

By the way we are not stealing any $ from any account as long as we refund a player deposit. The winnings might get confiscated as they were won in brake of our T&C. The word stealing is not appropriate in this relation.
And let me reassure here that all players especially our loyal players will get paid no regular winnings will be confiscated and winnings will be paid in full.

That all depends on how you define what is "abuse" and what is simply good playing style within the terms and conditions.

If a player bets all on a big bet that is in the list of excluded games, then grinds WR, that can be considered "bonus HUNTING", and would be a breach of your terms by playing an excluded game.

If, however, the player played only the games allowed with the bonus, but had a good run & the sense to withdraw while ahead, but having completed WR, then confiscation of winnings would be reneging on a valid bet, what is meant by "stealing" by the casino in this context.
If the bonuses are non-cashable as with many Playtech offerings, then the only way they can be manipulated is by placing a single large bet on a 50/50 game and grinding out WR if the bet wins.
If players open more than one account to take more bonuses than allowed, this would also be justification for removal of winnings, provided you can prove the case.
Many casinos confuse "bonus abuse" with skillful play, they are NOT the same, and any casino that voids winnings simply because a player played well, but within the terms of the offer, is "stealing", or reneging on a bet - something that in the days of the wild west in the USA would have got you shot!

 

[XXLClubCasino]

That all depends on how you define what is "abuse" and what is simply good playing style within the terms and conditions.

If a player bets all on a big bet that is in the list of excluded games, then grinds WR, that can be considered "bonus HUNTING", and would be a breach of your terms by playing an excluded game.

If, however, the player played only the games allowed with the bonus, but had a good run & the sense to withdraw while ahead, but having completed WR, then confiscation of winnings would be reneging on a valid bet, what is meant by "stealing" by the casino in this context.
If the bonuses are non-cashable as with many Playtech offerings, then the only way they can be manipulated is by placing a single large bet on a 50/50 game and grinding out WR if the bet wins.
If players open more than one account to take more bonuses than allowed, this would also be justification for removal of winnings, provided you can prove the case.
Many casinos confuse "bonus abuse" with skillful play, they are NOT the same, and any casino that voids winnings simply because a player played well, but within the terms of the offer, is "stealing", or reneging on a bet - something that in the days of the wild west in the USA would have got you shot!

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino. After either busting out after 3-4 big bets or meeting the WR they directly will cash out and move to the next casino. Some players will open multiple accounts with fake names borrowed from friends and play the same game exactly the same way with another account. Nothing new here this is classical bonus abusing and very easy to spot and prove.

As all 50 or more playtech casinos all offers almost the same games the excuse given by most bonus abusers "I just wanted to test other games or another casino" is not a valid argument.

 

[chuchu59]

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino. After either busting out after 3-4 big bets or meeting the WR they directly will cash out and move to the next casino. Some players will open multiple accounts with fake names borrowed from friends and play the same game exactly the same way with another account. Nothing new here this is classical bonus abusing and very easy to spot and prove.

As all 50 or more playtech casinos all offers almost the same games the excuse given by most bonus abusers "I just wanted to test other games or another casino" is not a valid argument.

Frank,

If it can be proved that the player had opened multiple accounts and obtained more than 1 signup bonus at the same casino, I agree that this is 'bonus abuse' in the absolute sense and confiscation of winnings is understandable. However, if there is nothing in the Terms and Conditions stating that one is not eligible for a signup bonus even if he had obtained them from other Playtechs before, he is playing legitmately and once bets are placed, the player should be paid if he won. mind you, he could have lost just as easily. These are the players that casinos dont want but unless there is fraud involved the casino should pay and ban him if it thinks fit. Before the Playtech ban on HK players, I had played at nearly all Playtech casinos and gotten signup bonuses from all of them. There were a half a dozen where I won and never went back. Well, just didnt feel like I wanted to play there anymore. No other reasons.

I understand that many casinos have a gripe against these 'advantage players' as they erode your profit margins but at the same time almost all of them are more intent on attracting new players with 100% or more singup bonuses whereas the Comp ratio is a measly 1:1000 and even worse for MG casinos due to their EZ bonus system. I hope that you will understand that while you are uncomfortable with paying these guys, the damage to reputation will be far worse especially since you are now geared more towards player retention. Just pay them, suffer the loss in the short term and start all over again.

 

[sdaddy]

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino. After either busting out after 3-4 big bets or meeting the WR they directly will cash out and move to the next casino. Some players will open multiple accounts with fake names borrowed from friends and play the same game exactly the same way with another account. Nothing new here this is classical bonus abusing and very easy to spot and prove.

Well if bonus abusing by your players is very easy to spot, then it should be easy to write specific rules which explain what type of play is prohibited. You don't like players making big bets after receiving the bonus? Then put in a rule saying bets over a certain amount, relative to the original deposit, are prohibited. You don't like players who just wager the minimum wagering requirement? Then you need to increase your WRs.

You even said yourself that you are in the process of implementing a new bonus structure to address the problem. You would do much better to focus your efforts there. What doesn't sit well with players is when a casino resorts to an ambiguous bonus abuse policy curtail the type of play it deems undesirable. It sends a message that the casino will not be up front with its players about how it intends to treat them.

By the way we are not stealing any $ from any account as long as we refund a player deposit. The winnings might get confiscated as they were won in brake of our T&C. The word stealing is not appropriate in this relation.

I think many players would beg to differ on this point. Do you also refund the deposits of identified bonus abusers who lose? I doubt it. So essentially you're taking a group of players and voiding all their winning bets but accepting the losing ones. That is a very punitive and unfair action.

 

[BBKPoker]

I didn't really wanted to raise the bonus abuser issues in the same thread so not to change the subject of this thread and focus on paying the players we owe money to.

Also I feel that it was worse mentioning and it's not a coincidence that the biggest complain in the forum are coming not from our regular players but from new one time depositors one time forum posters that clearly abuse the welcome bonus from playtech casinos.

By the way we are not stealing any $ from any account as long as we refund a player deposit. The winnings might get confiscated as they were won in brake of our T&C. The word stealing is not appropriate in this relation.

And let me reassure here that all players especially our loyal players will get paid no regular winnings will be confiscated and winnings will be paid in full.

You're right. You aren't stealing $.

You ARE however stealing .

 

[BBKPoker]

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino.

Then change your bonus instead of enforcing an obviously arbitrary clause. You say you are moving to a loyalty bonus and eliminating your signup bonus anyway. Considering you decided to disappear out of nowhere without advising your players or affiliates you might help your reputation (which is pretty damaged at this point) by fixing your outstanding complaints and then switching to your "safe" promotion, whatever that might be. The rest of us just see a casino that pulls a magical disappearing act and then makes accusations of bonus abusing towards the players that they owe payments and that sets off warning bells for very obvious reasons. It's nothing we haven't seen before by several other casinos that have gone under without paying their players. From a business perspective, I think it makes sense to pay all the outstanding players their full winnings prior to changing yourself over to whatever program you plan on using in the future.

 

[winbig]

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino. After either busting out after 3-4 big bets or meeting the WR they directly will cash out and move to the next casino. Some players will open multiple accounts with fake names borrowed from friends and play the same game exactly the same way with another account. Nothing new here this is classical bonus abusing and very easy to spot and prove.

As all 50 or more playtech casinos all offers almost the same games the excuse given by most bonus abusers "I just wanted to test other games or another casino" is not a valid argument.

Since when does bonus HUNTING fall under abuse? If YOUR CASINO wants to offer a generous SUB, damn straight I'm going to take it. Whether or not I decide to keep playing at your casino after I've finished is UP TO ME, NOT you. Getting paid based solely on whether or not I "exhibit" bonus HUNTING behaviors is complete BS. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

You're the ones offering the bonuses, not the other way around. If you don't want to pay out winnings and cry "abuse", then quit offering bonuses!

If you want more loyal players, then offer a non-bonus-hunter|abuser-friendly loyalty program (read: generous comps based on extended play), and not such a "generous" signup bonus offer. To sum it up: reward a player more for their ongoing loyalty, not their new business.


I believe XXLClub and us CM members have had this exact same conversation in the past, and under the same circumstances (different players involved, of course). If I wasn't so tired, I'd find the thread.

The bottom line is, if a player has an advantage over the bonus, IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT, NOT THEIRS. If they follow the T&C to the "T", PAY THEM. If they find a loophole, tough sh!t. PAY THEM and then close the loophole...ban them from FUTURE bonuses....but still, PAY THEM.


Also look at it from a different perspective. A millionaire decides to dress like a bum and go out and buy a new car (and pay cash for it). Where do you think he's going to purchase this car? Certainly not the car lots that treat him like crap (if they even wait on him)! He's going to buy a car from the lot that treats him with respect, not judging him by his looks.

Moral of the story: How many potentially loyal players have you burned by claiming bonus "abuse|hunting", and voiding their winnings? Think about it.

 

[hakapuku]

For me bonus abusing start when players signups in a casino for the only purpose of getting the generous welcome bonus thus giving the player a clear edge over the casino. No skillful play is required it's simply mathematical outcomes, then move to the next casino and so on. Those players have absolute no interest in risking their funds or are playing for the entertainment, they will therefore never make a second or third deposit in the same casino. After either busting out after 3-4 big bets or meeting the WR they directly will cash out and move to the next casino. Some players will open multiple accounts with fake names borrowed from friends and play the same game exactly the same way with another account. Nothing new here this is classical bonus abusing and very easy to spot and prove.

As all 50 or more playtech casinos all offers almost the same games the excuse given by most bonus abusers "I just wanted to test other games or another casino" is not a valid argument.

This is a hypocricy! Bonuses at online casinos are what all this online gambling business is built on! All online casinos, also all playtech casinos, advertise their bonuses whatever way they can! There is no need to hunt for the bonuses: casinos hunt for players online offering them the bonuses! And when one comes across these bonuses and starts to play them- then ugly roguesters among the online casinos (not all of them, offcourse) prepare the trap for the online gambler. Let's say somebody played at one playtech casino ,named X, with the bonus and lost his 100 euro deposit. After some time he gets one more offer by email from the X casino's sister casino. He plays and loses 200 euro deposit. Meanwhile offerings from the playtech casinos keep coming. And the person deposits and deposits. Pay attention- casinos don't refuse the bonuses- they award it. So , let's say , after losing 600 euro at 5 playtech casinos this person deposits one more time , this time at XXLCLUB casino and...booom...he wins 700 euro! Now his total balance with playtech casinos is 100 euro plus!. The player is happy! And then he cashes out and the next day he gets an email informing him that he is a bonus abuser at several playtech casinos and he is a thief so he will not get his winnings in no way! "We are such a good casino that we are ready to pay your deposit back to you. Say thank you!". And now the total balance of that player with all playtech casinos is MINUS 600 euro!. Who is a real abuser and thief in this typical scenario? Casinos or a gambler who was seduced by thousands of bonus offers and then left with his pocket empty!???

P/S. Actually this case with XXLCLUBCASINO is not about bonus abuse or something - it is about casino that tries to run away with the players money. The fact that Xxl's rep tries to use the "bonus abuse" issue to justify (at least in part) this big stealing and disappearing act only proves what a bullshit this "bonus abuse" stuff is. In other words: claiming the bonus abuse is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Considering you decided to disappear out of nowhere without advising your players or affiliates you might help your reputation (which is pretty damaged at this point) by fixing your outstanding complaints and then switching to your "safe" promotion, whatever that might be.

I don't know were you read that we decided to disappear! All our players were informed that due to technical issues with the payment processor we couldn't proceed their payment at that time, dot.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

Whether or not I decide to keep playing at your casino after I've finished is UP TO ME, NOT you. Getting paid based solely on whether or not I "exhibit" bonus HUNTING behaviors is complete BS. You know it, I know it, everyone knows it.

You're the ones offering the bonuses, not the other way around. If you don't want to pay out winnings and cry "abuse", then quit offering bonuses!

I believe XXLClub and us CM members have had this exact same conversation in the past, and under the same circumstances (different players involved, of course). If I wasn't so tired, I'd find the thread.

The bottom line is, if a player has an advantage over the bonus, IT IS YOUR OWN FAULT, NOT THEIRS. If they follow the T&C to the "T", PAY THEM. If they find a loophole, tough sh!t. PAY THEM and then close the loophole...ban them from FUTURE bonuses....but still, PAY THEM.

Moral of the story: How many potentially loyal players have you burned by claiming bonus "abuse|hunting", and voiding their winnings? Think about it.

You say it yourself one should differentiate between 2 types of bonus abuse. The one player that will go under his same name and try to grab all 50 signup bonuses and the one that will signup under different names to the 50 playtech casinos cashing in the bonus and starting from the beginning with with more shield names.

The second type of abuser is IMO definitely fraud, while the first abuser type might be "legitimate" from the perspective of the player and can/should be accepted by the casino operators.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

P/S. Actually this case with XXLCLUBCASINO is not about bonus abuse or something - it is about casino that tries to run away with the players money. The fact that Xxl's rep tries to use the "bonus abuse" issue to justify (at least in part) this big stealing and disappearing act only proves what a bullshit this "bonus abuse" stuff is. In other words: claiming the bonus abuse is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

We never attempted to disappear with player money! I don't know where this statement comes from. Further at no time I said we would not pay the couple of players that are labeled as bonus abusers out of the 14 pending withdrawals.

What is also clear to me is that the player posting here and that make the biggest negative posts are exactly the players that are abusing bonuses. I know it and they know it.

While most of the CM members are highly respectable some are just jumping on the thread to put additional pressure on the casino and try to cover their fraudulent activity hoping the casino rep will let them gateway so not to have the casino further have his name degraded in the forum.

Well this tactic is obvious to me and I will not succombe to this tactic. I'll pay all players that are not involved in fraud.

 

[sweiger]

We never attempted to disappear with player money! ......
I'll pay all players that are not involved in fraud.

Yeah Frank, I bet you would rather owe us players our money for the rest of your life than cheat us

 

[chuchu59]

Come on, give the guy a break.

Frank, can you tell us approximately when you will be able to pay the players that are not involved in fraud against your casino. They have been owed their dues for quite some time so it will be expected that the time should be as short as possible.

 

[XXLClubCasino]

I'm paying first players right now, only through neteller or wire transfer at present time. So all players with pending withdrawals can drop me their neteller accounts or bank details.