wofacai bonus issue: Pontoon = Blackjack Game?

[tristan727]

Any chance you could scroll this page back a week? Then you'd see where the mis-understanding lies.

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It really doesn't matter what it says to be honest - I'll admit in all honesty that I probably should have clicked on the more detailed terms before wagering, and noticed an inconsistency.

But having done so now - I am very pleased to note that one can indeed play Pontoon on sign-up, and as long you do not play with bonus credits - which their terms clarify by saying you play first with deposit funds, you are allowed to receive any winnings from play.

These are very clear terms they have on this subject - so why so far my funds have been confiscated, account frozen - and only mixed acknowledgement of this here, so far I really don't understand.

1) T&C 13.3. The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS.


2) T&C 13.14. Wofaca Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered in Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Baccarat (all sorts of Baccarat), Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack, Craps (all sorts of Craps), SicBo (all sorts of SicBo) or Pontoon.

Even without these terms being here - can anyone name me one Wagerworks or Crypto casino which will throw you out and take/steal your funds - simply because you played a game not related to a current promo? No, of course not - it just doesn't count towards the W.R. - and they give you the option of playing for a bonus anyways, which I never was given here. This is all sheer madness and a ridiculous over-reaction.

 

[spearmaster]

Did it occur to you that, as wagering on pontoon is not allowed or counted, that you have not met the wagering requirements?

For fair game, before you request to withdraw your deposit and bonus, you much wager at least 20 times your First Deposit plus the bonus.

This bonus doesn't apply for any blackjack games and Pontoon.

 

[The Dude]

On the surface it looks like you took them up on their sign-up bonus offer and played a disallowed game. Like I said, as soon as I get more info from the casino, I'll let you know.

 

[tristan727]

Did it occur to you that, as wagering on pontoon is not allowed or counted, that you have not met the wagering requirements?

How could it possibly have occurred to me at the time, when they sent me an email confirming my withdrawal -advising on how long it would take to process, followed by 3 further emails (even from the same bloke who decided to confiscate my funds, the casino manager!) & one phone call , all advising me on what further ID I needed to provide (ie a more recent utility bill), in order for them to process it? Is a strange way to behave towards a customer when not met the W.R., isn't it?

I am aware now obviously that I haven't met the wagering requirements under these terms - so please can they unfreeze my account, restore my balance, and let me wager another $12k on allowed games, admitting that under their terms I am indeed allowed to play Pontoon with my deposited funds - as long as I played the game in a non-bonus abuse way, which at $10/hand for a Play bonus - is not bonus abuse as far as I can see.

 

[The Dude]

Maybe this had something to do with it

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/caution-xxl-club-casino-bonus-terms.17245/

...I'm not from any of the countries the rep mentioned, but I still got bonus-banned, before I even played here. I'm VIP at dozens of online casino's - but one Playtech (I have a good guess who, since Totesport had the cheek to deny me a 10 slots bonus I'd earned before they bonus-banned me) took umbrage against a casino session or two I had, and now find myself banned at every Playtech under the sun- most using words I find quite libellious & un-necessary - stuff like 'we have to protect ourselves against fraudulent activity'. Well gee, sorry I spent a weekend playing Blackjack with a 75 x W.R. somewhere instead of 'Hole-in-one' - why don't you stick my photo on a milk carton or something. I don't deposit once & run-off, I am a recurring player who play's 3/4ths card games, and 1/4th fruit/leisure games - sadly this is evidently completely unacceptable to likes of Playtech's.

If you felt you were banned at most Playtech casinos, why did you think you'd not have a problem at this one? Or did this happen about the same time?

How many casinos have banned you by the way? If you could list them here, along with the reasons, that would be helpful.

 

[happygobrokey]

blackjack is homologous to 21. in french, the game blackjack is almost exclusively known as vingt-et-un.

by your logic if it doesn't have the letter formation b-l-a-c-k-j-a-c-k in the name that it is not related. thus, super fun 21, spanish 21, double exposure, etc etc are also not blackjack games.

also there is such thing as a short form. for instance, double exposure is sometimes called double exposure blackjack, in which case the first would not be a bj game, but the second and identical game is? many people say "omaha" or "texas" referring to forms of poker, and it is (implicitly) obvious the game is a variant of poker. but you might say since in texas hold'em seven cards are in play, of which only two are yours so how can you have a poker game with only two cards? because these are variations on the traditional game, but they continue to fall under the umbrella of poker games. just as games with the object of reaching closer to 21 than the dealer are all known as blackjack/21/vingt-et-un games.

you keep saying you "could name many places" which allow pontoon but not other bj's, so please tell us what these places are and show proof.

i don't think this is the first time someone has cried out "i didn't play blackjack, only pontoon" and this is why after a casino receives a case of this that they then go in and explicitly add the word "pontoon" on the disallowed list for all the numbskulls (or crafty exploiters) who seem to think pontoon and blackjack are different brands of beast. since the word beast came to mind here, would you mind telling me if chimpanzees and gorillas are apes? i don't see ape in their name, yet they share so many properties in common with the definition of ape that maybe i should ask first whether or not they are apes before i claim that they are or aren't.

and arguably the naive novice gambler who innocently were to play it and not be able to make the connection between these games, likely would also not know how to play with a good enough strategy to make money at it. this player, for instance, might stand on a soft 21, might stand with a four-card hand of 15-17. and if indeed you don't see the connection to blackjack, how would you have any notion of strategy whatsoever? i mean how do you know what the goal of the game is? the table graphic does not talk about hands with point totals of greater than 21 being busted/losing hands. if this game were put in front of an impartial judge (who has never heard of it) and the words and rules of it were not presented, some fumbling around would within minutes reveal the similarity to blackjack. "why do i lose when my total goes above 21? why didn't i have to do anything and i just win outright with an ace and tenspot/paint? oh! this game must be similar to blackjack"

bottom line, if you play innocent, then there's no way you could have played profitably, and who would try to complete a bonus wagering on a game they don't know how to play or what the risk of it is?

otherwise, you do know what you're doing, and are taking advantage that the game uses a different combination of letters to describe the same concept, and the "magic word" blackjack doesn't appear. the reason the terms state "craps (all forms of craps)" etc is just for this reason (what variations are there in craps? i think it's the same worldwide, no?). people play a game that for every intent and purpose is the same game to try to get away on a technicality, "i didn't play baccarat, i played mini-baccarat"... now the casino adds (all forms of x) as a catch-all to eliminate the games they don't want played, rather than (see the "tila casino has open" thread) naming each and every variant separately, yet people will persist that not only is pontoon not blackjack, furthermore it isn't even a form of blackjack. preposterous.

once a player or two tries to pull this on them, the casino decides they don't want this hassle anymore, so they explicitly add the word pontoon to eliminate future confusion to anyone else feeling justified that it's not in the same family. to which the "offended" players respond that "look they added pontoon specifically so therefore it must not have been a member of that set/list before!" we could discuss this till our eyes bleed, but the fact remains that it's blatantly obvious that pontoon is related to blackjack and thusly ought to be considered "a form of" the game.

if it looks, talks, and walks like a duck, even if it doesn't explicitly represent itself as one, alas it remains a duck.

and let me close by once more pointing out that the only people who could hold a belief that pontoon is not related to bj are the completely ignorant, and the conniving smart-ass word-manipulators. the latter group often proceed to defend their literal interpretations tooth and nail, refusing to accept the cogent explanations of why the consensus agrees on the true intent of the words used to convey the idea. another classic tactic of that camp in this situation is to try to make oneself look like the former, an ignorant "didn't-know-any-better-sorry-won't-happen-again" type.

 

[tristan727]

deleted

 

[tristan727]

Maybe this had something to do with it

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/caution-xxl-club-casino-bonus-terms.17245/



If you felt you were banned at most Playtech casinos, why did you think you'd not have a problem at this one? Or did this happen about the same time?

How many casinos have banned you by the way? If you could list them here, along with the reasons, that would be helpful.

I'm not 'banned' anywhere - 2 or 3 have advised me am not eligible for any of their main promos - probably my quote was quite an over-reaction. One of them - XXL Casino, the manager spoke to me right here at CM about how they made the decision - that it was purely an individual commercial one, automated I think - and gave me advice on how to be re-instated for their promos - which was quite insightful. One Playtech last week even re-instated me fully into their promos - Betfred.

Sorry for the mis-information therefore, or misunderstanding. All casino's individually decide whether to issue large or no bonuses - is obviously no real big deal.

In fact, in case there is still some mis-understanding - in all the Playtechs I can think of who stopped sending me casino bonuses, all 2 or 3 them - they have advised me I am still allowed their sports bonuses, on their Sportsbook side - so they still value me as a customer even. Not exactly the same thing as being banned - which was the stupid impression I gave in that post.

 

[The Dude]

deleted

I was going to mention that Lojo decided to take a break from the forum. As you could tell, he wasn't making too much sense.

 

[The Dude]

I'm not 'banned' anywhere - 2 or 3 have advised me am not eligible for any of their main promos - probably my quote was quite an over-reaction. One of them - Eurogrand, the manager spoke to me right here at CM about how they made the decision - that it was purely an individual commercial one, automated I think - and gave me advice on how to be re-instated for their promos - which was quite insightful. One Playtech last week even re-instated me fully into their promos - Betfred.

Sorry for the mis-information therefore, or misunderstanding. All casino's individually decide whether to issue large or no bonuses - is obviously no real big deal.

Okay, cool. I thought you had instigated an "across the board ban" with the entire Playtech brand. That would have been impressive

 

[tristan727]

Well, that was my initial thought indeed when it all happened (the 2 or 3 bonus ineligibilities seemed to happen round the same time) - and was about to contact Playtech in fact, when the XL chap here explained it to me.

I'm pretty sure one of them, Totesport - bonus bans absolutely everyone. In fact the month or so before they bonus banned me - I lost several hundreds pounds there. Made about a third of it back though, the next month - and that was the end of me! The evil thing about it was - they never told me about it. It wasn't until I lost about 50 on their slot of the month promo, and rang to ask why the 25 bonus didn't credit - they told me was now banned, admitting they hadn't tried to contact me, and refused to credit it! Didn't want to waste a PAB on it though.

The fact that me & two mates are off shortly tonight to an all-inclusive VIP event at a racetrack, courtesy of a certain Gibraltar-based casino, shows my value to some of them, one would think. Either that, or I got lucky in some draw. ( I don't know because they rang up, saying someone had dropped out, & asked if I could replace them)

 

[happygobrokey]

sorry for that first huge rant...

now regarding the point of the general t&c talking about wagers with bonus money, the t&c for the specfic bonus will supersede the general t&c. the "bonus" section of the t&c at most casinos will include games that are always excluded from any bonus given at the casino, and the terms of specific promotions may disallow even more games than the general terms that overarch all bonuses. if you take a bonus that stipulates slots only, you can't use the general t&c to show that games other than slots are allowed for the specific bonus you had.

and "wagering with bonus" does not necessarily mean using actual bonus chips in the placement of a wager. we all know (and indeed it's the reason bonuses are good) that it gives you a cushion so that you can play for longer or be more aggressive. since the bonus funds are wagered last, the bonus is intended to prolong one's play. the term in the general t&c regarding "bets with bonus on games x,y,z...subject to scrutiny etc" is because indeed some players use an aggressive (some would say abusive) strategy of going for broke immediately, betting half their stack at once to quickly double up a couple times (sticking all their bonus chips on one or two whacks). this is not perfectly in spirit with the intention of the bonus (to extend play), however this imo is neither here nor there since the player can lose it all using any betting strategy. and all it says is that they will investigate if you play on these games with bonus, not that it's forbidden.

but as i said, "playing with bonus" might just mean "playing while you have bonus in your account", because some might also find it abusive if a player makes excessively low bets on a low-edge game like blackjack to minimize the variance and convert the bonus to cash at the minimum risk, without ever intending to dip below his own deposit into the bonus money.

again, i feel both of these techniques are not abusive, since in going for broke, the player often in fact goes broke (casinos love highrollers), and in lowrolling and grinding it out, the player is indeed playing in the spirit of the bonus to play for a long time. even beginning with big bets and then shifting way down to preserve the win is a normal strategy for someone who doesn't mind the initial risk. it really oughtn't matter the size of our wagers, and most casinos implement a $5 low limit on blackjack bets to add variance, and some implement a low or low-ish upper limit ($20-$100) to prevent the big-win-or-bust players from getting so lucky to catch a streak off the bat and turn 50 into 3000 inside of six hands.

but really, making a small or large profit is the reason players want bonuses, and the chance for a small or large loss with playthrough to procure a lot of wagering traffic is the reason casinos offer them. the bet size does not determine whether we win, only the cards do. so i agree there was nothing abusive in your play pattern, only that the game you played was prohibited from that bonus to which you were tied, and thus you've failed to meet wr in best case, or fatally breached terms, forfeitting bonus & winnings and facing account lockdown in worst case.

why didn't you stick to those casinos you "knew for a fact" allow pontoon, rather than trying to use the smallest traces of ambiguity to justify your actions at this one? you can't seriously expect us to believe you had no idea it was a form of blackjack, and that you have frequently played where "all blackjacks" are excluded and you get no problems with playing pontoon and it's never come up with the casinos before now. in any event, due diligence would suggest to get it confirmed before possibly damning yourself.

edit: i notice you seem to have been affirmed pontoon is allowed, are you basing that only on the "bonus wagers on bj..." point 13.14 i think it was? because if the sign up bonus terms say no bj/pontoon, it doesn't matter what the general terms say, so why do you seem so renewed that pontoon is okay? at first you were conceding all bj was disallowed and trying to place pontoon outside the sphere of bj, but now you think pontoon is allowed, so have they changed it to allow all bj's (except switch and surrender which would of course not count for wagering via the general terms) or taken down the additional word pontoon (which would still disallow it as it's a form of bj, but would be doubly misleading via the fact that they felt the need to include it alongside the "all forms of bj" part and would then take away that word)? so have the terms changed, or do you just think that 13.14 justifies bj wagers with non-bonus chips notwithstanding any other exclusions or provisions? i urge you to review this.

 

[tristan727]

Let me get this straight, I had some kind of bonus advantage here, because I;

a)deposited $400

b) received a non-withdrawable $200 bonus.

c) Had to wager $12,000 before could withdraw anything

d) played at $10/hands?

What kind of advantage is that really? It is worst bonus scheme I have ever heard of.

The only thing I am learning here, is that when there is the slightest doubt over the terms, it goes in the casino favour. When a term is crystal clear however, it goes into the casino's favour. Those terms regarding specifying when playing with a deposit can only exist for these type of cases - it can't possibly mean anything else - it is their whole raison d'etre! Anyone reading those terms could come to no other conclusion that as long as they didn't play with the funds allocated to the bonus, they can play as they like. Just that they can't withdraw until they have wagered $12k on allowed games...it doesn't mean anything else.

 

[The Dude]

Admin Note: Thread moved, renamed

Thread moved to this section since this is clearly a bonus issue. Also renamed to "wofacai bonus issue: Pontoon = Blackjack?" from "A fraudulent Playtech Licensee".

 

[The Dude]

Let me get this straight, I had some kind of bonus advantage here, because I;

a)deposited $400

b) received a non-withdrawable $200 bonus.

c) Had to wager $12,000 before could withdraw anything

d) played at $10/hands?

What kind of advantage is that really? It is worst bonus scheme I have ever heard of.

But if you were playing a disallowed game, then this thread is going nowhere.

 

[tristan727]

No-one has yet shown any term here where it says you cannot play this game - in fact I have shown where it is allowed to be played...only that it does not count towards the wagering requirement of the bonus.

 

[spearmaster]

The only thing I am learning here, is that when there is the slightest doubt over the terms, it goes in the casino favour. When a term is crystal clear however, it goes into the casino's favour. Those terms regarding specifying when playing with a deposit can only exist for these type of cases - it can't possibly mean anything else - it is their whole raison d'etre! Anyone reading those terms could come to no other conclusion that as long as they didn't play with the funds allocated to the bonus, they can play as they like. Just that they can't withdraw until they have wagered $12k on allowed games...it doesn't mean anything else.

This is getting a bit out of hand.

Pontoon does not equal blackjack. However, pontoon DOES equal a type or form of blackjack.

Blackjack types are not allowed for the bonus. Furthermore, playing a disallowed game does not count towards playthrough.

As far as I am concerned, that is quite clear - but you chose to try and make it appear as if pontoon was not a type of blackjack.

How does that become "when there is doubt over the terms, it goes in the casino's favour"?

And yet again - the casino has not said why they are closing the account. But suddenly, everything is in their favour according to you.

This is symptomatic of what many other players claim when they are only concerned with winning the argument, regardless of who is right or wrong. "Fairness" goes out the door as soon as it doesn't go the player's way.

Given the many instances where members of the forum, as well as Casinomeister himself, have supported the player in cases where terms were not crystal clear, I think you have done nothing but shoot yourself in the foot.

 

[pangloss]

No-one has yet shown any term here where it says you cannot play this game - in fact I have shown where it is allowed to be played...only that it does not count towards the wagering requirement of the bonus.

You must be pulling your hair out in frustration. Let me say this.

You have advocated your position with crystal clarity. BJ is not Pontoon - any casino hack knows that.

No bets were made using bonus funds.

No game is disallowed but some are restricted from bonus wagering calculations.

The casino altered bonus T+Cs post play. They have failed to adequately communicate both before after the event. You have every right to expect a prompt and speedy resolution.

Best of luck, you may need it. Seems "the casino is always right" is becoming a mantra around here in the face of deteriorating online casino performance at almost every level.


...

 

[The Dude]

...Best of luck, you may need it. Seems "the casino is always right" is becoming a mantra around here in the face of deteriorating online casino performance at almost every level...

That's probably the stupidest comment I've read all day. Why don't you do us a favor and take a long walk on a short pier.

To everyone else: so far, I don't have a response from the casino that will shed further light on the issue yet. It's on its way, and when I receive this, I'll let everyone know.

Pontoon is a form of Blackjack - like Spear said, to argue this is just plain silly. And the terms and conditions dating back to February disallow Pontoon for bonus play. As far as I know, the player made a deposit, collected the initial player bonus, won some money, tried to cash out and was locked out after his account was audited.

But the player's PAB states this:

I signed up to this casino and wagered over 12,000 on an allowed game. I employed no techniques to utilise the 200 sign-up bonus - in fact I didnt really need it all, nor did I have any choice about being given it.

Am I missing something? Didn't you say you were playing Pontoon?

This is from your original post:
I have found to my cost. Anyone who meets their sign-up bonus conditions & then dares withdraw, is labelled a bonus abuser, and deposit returned, all profit revoked. The withdrawal is declined due to 'security purpose'. I know this from my own experience, and a fellow gambler....so it is the norm apparently.

But it was not until this post that you discovered that "oops, played the wrong game."
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/wofacai-bonus-issue-pontoon-blackjack-game.17759/

You are a seasoned player - you admit that you have been playing online for ten years. Why did you decide now to not read the terms and conditions of the bonus? (I have shown that the no pontoon term has been there since Feb.)

How about shedding some light on who this other player is. Did he also not read the terms and conditions and played Pontoon as well? That seems very odd to me that you would mention this.

How about giving us a complete run-down (step-by-step) on what exactly happened? That would help. Thanks!

 

[phynqster]

From experience Pontoon is always considered Black Jack on the casino's end. It is when players try to knit pick a point like this, makes the casinos do the same. I know of a casino where they ran a promotion of 100.00 for every black jack in 24 hour period. When a player went to cash in over 1,000,000 the casino tried to claim that a Black Jack = an ACE and a BLACK JACK only. All other Ace and 10 value card was a 2 card 21. I do not know what the final outcome was, but that is the kind of shit non accrediated casinos can pull when players, pull this type of thing.
2nd point, any time I had a player play Pontoon, win lose or draw, I labled him a bonus abuser for any further sessions. I have yet to run in to just a "recreational player, who plays Pontoon".

 

[mikepipe]

And couldnt that be a brillant last post for this thread?
( I dont OP expect to bring any further points).

 

[kavaman]

Its clear that pontoon is a blackjack variation, there is no question in that. However as the player played 10 unit bets and did not touch the sticky bonus funds the casino is a bit harsh to return his deposit and keep the winnings. The right decision here is to make the player wager the wagering requirements on allowed games, on a balance that he has.

Just my opinion

 

[swampwitch]

The right decision here is to make the player wager the wagering requirements on allowed games, on a balance that he has.

IF the casino was of a mind to do anything of the sort, it would be more along the line of having the player meet WR's with the original deposit plus bonus.

Just an opinion also.

 

[The Dude]

From experience Pontoon is always considered Black Jack on the casino's end. It is when players try to knit pick a point like this, makes the casinos do the same. I know of a casino where they ran a promotion of 100.00 for every black jack in 24 hour period. When a player went to cash in over 1,000,000 the casino tried to claim that a Black Jack = an ACE and a BLACK JACK only. All other Ace and 10 value card was a 2 card 21. I do not know what the final outcome was, but that is the kind of shit non accrediated casinos can pull when players, pull this type of thing....

I don't think the player was ever paid in full - another reason why this casino is in the rogue pit (starts with a C and ends with an S).

So far my suggest would be to return the player's deposit and bonus fund, and let the guy play again on ALLOWED games. But since Tristan had a go at the casino ("a fraudulent Playtech Licensee"), I doubt the casino will consider this and just close Tristan's account.

This is one of the reasons why you should try and take care of all problems tactfully. Sure it's fine to bring these issues out into open discussion, but if you are trying to convince a casino operation that you're right/they're wrong, the last thing you should be doing is bitching them out in the public fora.

I'm still wondering who this other gambler was that Tristan mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Did he also play Pontoon by mistake? If so, what a coincidence.

 

[pangloss]

I'm still wondering who this other gambler was that Tristan mentioned at the beginning of this thread. Did he also play Pontoon by mistake? If so, what a coincidence.

Here's what the T+Cs state at CentreBet Casino (PlayTech):

"Bets placed on all versions of Baccarat, Roulette, All Video Poker, Casino War, Sic Bo, Blackjack, Pai Gow Poker and Craps will NOT be counted towards wagering requirements."

That's pretty clear don't you think? Except for one thing - all and sundry are playing Pontoon each and every single month of the year without a moments hassle with cashing out the bonus each and every month. See here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Case closed. Pontoon is NOT BlackJack, never has been, never will be.


....

 

[The Dude]

...Pontoon is NOT BlackJack, never has been, never will be...

No one said Pontoon is Blackjack. Pontoon is a Blackjack game though. And the casino specifically lists Pontoon as a disallowed game - at least since February. So what's your point?

 

[Pinababy69]

This is one of the reasons why you should try and take care of all problems tactfully.

This can't be repeated enough. There is an avenue here for players to try and resolve problems BEFORE posting. So many of these complaints could maybe be worked out if people would just realize that.

 

[tristan727]

This can't be repeated enough. There is an avenue here for players to try and resolve problems BEFORE posting. So many of these complaints could maybe be worked out if people would just realize that.

Well, that's your opinion & Casinomeister's - fair enough. My tactic in this & a previous sportsbook dispute, has been to p*ss & moan publicly. However, when it is resolved, I give fair credit to the operation concerned, also publicly.

I don't moan everytime I have a problem - just when the operation itself goes back & reviews the issue & then gives me their final verdict. Now, whether or not I should still take even this with a pinch of salt, and pursue somewhere else, before posting - is something I will take into consideration after reading all your views here...but not everyone here is an experienced pro at these kind of things...so cut me a bit of slack plz.

As it is, fortunately someone saw sense...possibly the chap at Playtech who emailed me back, and I sent him (on top of my original complaint) - the terms showing I was only playing with the deposited funds, not bonus. He probably explained & discussed it better with them, than I did.

This is a crucial, 100% legally binding point in my contract with them- which the experts & residents here seemed unwilling to tackle...preferring to talk instead about the weaker issue of whether or not Pontoon is allowed - it is beyond any doubt that whomever wrote those terms had a bit of savvy & commercial sense, & wrote those terms to avoid the ludicrous situation where about 30-60% of all new customers would have played at least once, one of the banned bonus games, before ever making a withdrawal. That would have been commercial suicide. Probably he has now gone off somewhere else, and someone in his place, or on the shopfloor took a rather aggressive approach to this whole bonus issue, and has now been corrected, thank goodness.

So basically my funds are back in my casino account & everything is fine at Wofacai. I would have no fear of recommending this place now....but before you play - check to see if the terms are different, & don't assume as much as I did.

Anyhow, I'm sure Bryan's email to them had at least some effect on them, possibly more - so many thanks there for it. I will try to PAB or complain here next time when it is 100% concrete & final that I won't be getting any money, wrongly - and the terms clearly, unambigously, say I shoud - like they do here regarding bonus funds - but not next time, when it solely a Pontoon/BJ issue.

 

[GrandMaster]

2nd point, any time I had a player play Pontoon, win lose or draw, I labled him a bonus abuser for any further sessions. I have yet to run in to just a "recreational player, who plays Pontoon".

This is the attitude that made Virtual the great casino it is. Pontoon is actually quite well known in the UK.

No one said Pontoon is Blackjack. Pontoon is a Blackjack game though.

Under British law, blackjack is defined as a variant of pontoon (Statutory Instrument 1994 No. 2899, The Gaming Clubs (Bankers' Games) Regulations 1994).

 

[The Dude]

Just a heads up that it looks like this player had two accounts.

Posting fraudulent claims is not tolerated in this forum. Players who knowingly commit fraud will be permanently banned.

Having multiple accounts is not only stupid, it's considered fraudulent activity. And if you look at tristan727's posting record, you'll notice that he seems to have a lot of payment issues.

 

[tristan727]

Seems a rasher harsh post to make, considering I've just advised everyone here that they have fully restored my account & it's balance.

As it is - I haven't got the foggiest idea what they mean by having a previous account - so I've asked them for further info, ie what email address - rest deleted as must remain calm.

 

[The Dude]

Seems a rasher harsh post to make, considering I've just advised everyone here that they have fully restored my account & it's balance.

As it is - I haven't got the foggiest idea what they mean by having a previous account - so I've asked them for further info, ie what email address.

You have two accounts at this casino - are you denying this?

 

[tristan727]

You have two accounts at this casino - are you denying this?

To the very best of my knowledge, yes I have only one - but in fact I am hoping that I do have 2 - as they say they are going to refund the deposit of the 1st one - that would mean I'll be quids in.

I really do have better things in life to do than trying to open multiple accounts at a casino which offers a 50%, 60x WR play bonus - how pointless would that be exactly?

Anyways - this email thing will resolve it once & for all, to my satisfaction at least - as fortunately my email accounts have search functions, which will pick out account numbers. Not to mention the fact that they will have to give me an email address which is actually mine, in the 1st place.


You know - it seems rather a shame & unfair that a casino, any casino - is allowed to tell you something Bryan, and based solely on that information my name gets dragged through the mud here - without any recourse or defense on my behalf before so. The fact that I've got all my money & winnings, and bonus even back from them - would tend to suggest that there is a good chance I haven't actually committed any fraudulent claim or activity, as you state. I can only assume that you trust fully your sources there, and welcome the chance to clear my name publicly here - and bare no ill-feeling to anyone...in fact I sometimes rather enjoy a heated debate.

 

[spearmaster]

Case closed. Pontoon is NOT BlackJack, never has been, never will be.

If you would bother to read the thread in the first place you would see that no one has ever claimed that Pontoon is blackjack - rather, Pontoon is considered to be a FORM of blackjack, or a blackjack TYPE.

 

[spearmaster]

You know - it seems rather a shame & unfair that a casino, any casino - is allowed to tell you something Bryan, and based solely on that information my name gets dragged through the mud here - without any recourse or defense on my behalf before so.

WTF is that all about? If you expect Bryan to investigate a claim with a casino, at least expect that they will necessarily have to respond with a reason.

That in itself doesn't get you dragged through the mud.

The fact that I've got all my money & winnings, and bonus even back from them - would tend to suggest that there is a good chance I haven't actually committed any fraudulent claim or activity, as you state. I can only assume that you trust fully your sources there, and welcome the chance to clear my name publicly here - and bare no ill-feeling to anyone...in fact I sometimes rather enjoy a heated debate.

The fact you have your money and winnings and bonus is testament to the fact that Bryan and the casino managed to agree on a decision - and now you want to hold it against them too, right?

I think that you are entirely out of order. You should confine yourself in this particular issue to thanking Bryan and the casino for solving the problem - then zip it.

 

[tristan727]

Surely you can see how someone innocent, would be a tad upset by Bryan's last post, couldn't you? If I am over-reacting, then I wholly apologise.

Wofacai have just advised me that they cannot advise me on any of the details, ie. email address of this frozen account, due to security measures(?) - so how else am I supposed to clear my name of this accusation, before I am banned here - anyone care to advise?

P.S. am not too sure about who made them come to the decision actually - Playtech Marketing were the ones who advised me that the casino had got back to them, regarding their email to them, and had resolved it to my satisfaction. So, for people here who say Playtech do nothing for the customer - I believe, very much ,otherwise! Sure it was a combo of both pressures, though.

 

[tristan727]

Nor am I now, just been told, allowed to know to which credit/debit card, or online wallet is this deposit being returned....that can't be right - what if it's a closed account, or expired card?

BTW - I entirely agree with you Spearmaster that I should be zipping it - I wish I could just move on, and not cause any offense to either the casino, or the regulars/mods & Bryan here. However, being considered, or suspected a fraud is just something I really can't stomach, far more than any financial issue or gain which would result in my shutting up & taking what I've been given back.

 

[The Dude]

You know - it seems rather a shame & unfair that a casino, any casino - is allowed to tell you something Bryan, and based solely on that information my name gets dragged through the mud here - without any recourse or defense on my behalf before so. The fact that I've got all my money & winnings, and bonus even back from them - would tend to suggest that there is a good chance I haven't actually committed any fraudulent claim or activity, as you state. I can only assume that you trust fully your sources there, and welcome the chance to clear my name publicly here - and bare no ill-feeling to anyone...in fact I sometimes rather enjoy a heated debate.

Your name isn't being drug through the mud. Tristan727 is merely a username.

You made a claim here that the casino was committing fraud. This is serious, this is not a game. If you make such claims, I and most everyone else involved will look into this fully to find out what happened.

At first, I tended to believe that someone made a mistake with your account, and that this was going to be an easy fix. But looking into this further, the casino has stated that you have two accounts. They closed one, and placed the funds in the other. Having multiple accounts is fraud, and they may decide to close them both - I don't know what they plan to do.

To state that it's "a shame & unfair that a casino, any casino" - is allowed to tell me anything. Well, I know this casino. I know the operators. I've visited their offices in Manila and toured their operations. It's not some skanky clip shot joint - it's a solid company with some reputable people backing this up.

On the other hand I have a player who has not been 100% truthful in his claim - seemingly so.

So backing up and looking at both sides, how would you have handled this?

 

[The Dude]

Nor am I now, just been told, allowed to know to which credit/debit card, or online wallet is this deposit being returned....that can't be right - what if it's a closed account, or expired card?...

Why would you worry about this for a micro-second if you had only one account?

Maybe you should zip it?

 

[tristan727]

Bryan - I asked 1/3rd of the way through this thread if one of the mods could change the title of this thread, as basically I realised I was over-reacting & judging with haste.

Having multiple accounts is fraud

Having multiple accounts is not necessarily fraud. It may well turn out I signed up several years ago, and completely forgot about it. It may also turn out that they bought a casino and merged details, sending me this info to a defunct email address, ie. my last employer's. It may also be the fact they accidently duplicated my details & gave me 2 accounts.

So basically I will stand here and say 100% that I did not committ fraud, and am 80-90% sure I do not have another account with them.

 

[The Dude]

Bryan - I asked 1/3rd of the way through this thread if one of the mods could change the title of this thread, as basically I realised I was over-reacting & judging with haste.

This is what you requested:

...P.S. would much appreciate if a Mod could change the title of this thread to 'Wofacai confiscates my winnings against their own t&c's' please.

How were they breaking their terms and conditions? They were confiscating your winnings because you played the wrong game, Pontoon (never mind having two accounts).

If it turns out you had an older account that you forgot about, then sure - that might be considered player error. But you have to understand that player fraud is huge and that most businesses have zero tolerance. I'm sure they can check both accounts and see when and where you signed up at either one. If one is relatively old, they may say what the hell and let it go.

Buy really, how would you forget that you opened an account at a Chinese Playtech casino?

 

[tristan727]

How were they breaking their terms and conditions?

That's an easy 1 for me to answer - as per my last email to Playtech, which came back to me with a successful resolution, I pointed out these 2 terms, & advised on my gameplay...


13.3. The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS

13.14. Wofaca Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered in Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Baccarat (all sorts of Baccarat), Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack, Craps (all sorts of Craps), SicBo (all sorts of SicBo) or Pontoon


As for how could I forget I had signed up to a Chinese casino - you're spot on there, it doesn't make sense to me either - which is why I stated there is an 80-90% chance I do not have multiple accounts there. Despite their assertion I have.

 

[The Dude]

...As for how could I forget I had signed up to a Chinese casino - you're spot on there, it doesn't make sense to me either - which is why I stated there is an 80-90% chance I do not have multiple accounts there. Despite their assertion I have.

I'm asking them for more info. I should have something by tomorrow.

 

[The Dude]

Having multiple accounts is not necessarily fraud. It may well turn out I signed up several years ago, and completely forgot about it. It may also turn out that they bought a casino and merged details, sending me this info to a defunct email address, ie. my last employer's. It may also be the fact they accidently duplicated my details & gave me 2 accounts.

So basically I will stand here and say 100% that I did not committ fraud, and am 80-90% sure I do not have another account with them.

The casino has informed me that these accounts were opened two days apart this month. You deposited at both, accepted the bonus, and played the same games.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/

1.6 - No "Libelous" Posts. Do not make posts that could be considered libelous, defamatory, or posting merely to cause harm to another's business. Opinions are expected, but do not attack others with accusations of criminal activity unless this has been proven in a court of law.

1.10 - Members who commit player fraud (chargebacks, fake accounts, etc.) will be banned from the forum.

Bye.

 

[The Dude]

I forgot this one:

2.3 - Ensure your complaint is free from offensive or abusive language, and that the complaint is tactful and truthful. Making false claims are grounds for banishment or drawn and quartering.

 

[happygobrokey]

probably tristan has a multiple personality disorder and truthfully doesn't know that inside of two days created two different accounts.

 

[Da_Gambla]

An interesting find...

Looking back at some posts from tristan, I found this:

http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/...

Basically, he was questioning why Tila casino explicitly mentioned each TYPE of baccarat that was disallowed, and said "I mean - under these current rules - If I happen to notice a $25 sidebet game next year - and you've forgotten to update your terms as above - and I win on a bonus - I'd fully expect to get paid."

That is essentially exactly what he did to this casino... he played a TYPE of blackjack, claimed it wasn't explicity denied based on the exact name of the game, and expected to be payed.

- Keith

 

[henryVIII]

Yeah, thats right ... pontoon is "obviously" a type of blackjack. Every novice knows this.

As for quoting dictionaries merely alluding to such ... I am sure you can find dictionaries who define Canadians as North Americans.

Thus, if a casino says "No American players" then they "obviously" are including Canadians as Canadians are a type of American in the most literal dictionary sense.

Tristan may or may not have been a trickster ... this was even before this .... but those who were supporting a casino for denying a player his money because of such absolute baloney are "obviously" not within the realms of what most people would feel is "normal" or "100% impartial" when it comes to some casinos.

 

[mikepipe]

I forgot this one:

2.3 - Ensure your complaint is free from offensive or abusive language, and that the complaint is tactful and truthful. Making false claims are grounds for banishment or drawn and quartering.

Please, Meister, dont pay that much attention to this clumsy stuff. We are going to have a beautiful summer in weissbiercountry. Wed better spend our nites in the biergarten

 

[spearmaster]

What's the matter, Henry, your keyboard stuck?

How many novices do you think would choose to play pontoon instead of blackjack, unless they knew the game? And how many pontoon players would not know that it is a form of blackjack or twenty-one or vingt-et-un?

Very few.

I find it hilarious that all the naysayers come out at the same time - always when CM or myself don't agree with the player. But this case is shut - and as it turns out has zero to do with pontoon.

You cannot have it both ways. If you don't the operators to list every game under the sun in their T&Cs then use your brain. If you don't want to use your brain then you can spend the time required to read and remember the entire list.

Nice catch, Da_Gambla.