Caution: XXL Club Casino Bonus Terms

cerdikola

Low Roller
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Location
Spain
Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.

Be careful, I read the T&C and I had no problems. But is just an advice, I know this casino is fair but this is a rogue trick to steal money...

Read KK's definition:

Prohibited Games

It’s equally important to check the bonus T&C's vary carefully for prohibited games. These are games where even if you play just one hand during your bonus qualification, the casino will confiscate all your bonus & winnings. This is a common trick among the less reputable places (the worst rogues may steal your deposit too!). The difference between prohibited & restricted games is that you are allowed to play restricted games with your bonus, but any bets you place do not count towards meeting WR. But prohibited games you must never play if there is any bonus money in your account.

Take note XXL Club rep...
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
How is it a "trick" if they list it clearly in their T&C?

It's only a trick if the player didn't read the T&C before playing...and if that's the case, it's their own fault...
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Hi Cerdikola

I do not share your view with regards to this T&C. We are suffering from giving bonus to advantage players and need to protect our business. As long as the excluded games are not played before meeting the WR you have nothing to worry about. Also note that in case this happen we practice either a total refund of the deposit to the player or based on his/her choice we leave the bonus and deposit to the player and ask to meet the WR without playing any listed restricted games.

The mathematical outcomes if we do not enforce these basics restrictions is devastating for the casinos and we would get bankrupt within a month!

Also note that any bonuses can be refused and a lot of players prefer it this way. We do then give other bonus incentives like kick backs based on the players lost.

The definition of gambling is risking some money to be able to win big. Due to the welcome bonus given to loyal players and abused by others the risk is completely covered by the casino and not by players which can't be call a FAIR situation.

We pay 1000's of dollars every months to player "abusing" the welcome bonus. This is integral part of the game going on between advantage players and casinos but without making any game restrictions we would not survive 1 month.

I hope I gave you a better view of our T&C and why we unfortunately have to restrict playing some games. I'm confident everyone can see it as a FAIR and do not feel being ripped of by our T&C.

Any opinion is welcome and I would love to hear other players view on the subject.
 

cerdikola

Low Roller
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Location
Spain
How is it a "trick" if they list it clearly in their T&C?

It's only a trick if the player didn't read the T&C before playing...and if that's the case, it's their own fault...

That not happens in most fair casinos
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Fair

Hi Cerdikola

I do not share your view with regards to this T&C. We are suffering from giving bonus to advantage players and need to protect our business. As long as the excluded games are not played before meeting the WR you have nothing to worry about. Also note that in case this happen we practice either a total refund of the deposit to the player or based on his/her choice we leave the bonus and deposit to the player and ask to meet the WR without playing any listed restricted games.

The mathematical outcomes if we do not enforce these basics restrictions is devastating for the casinos and we would get bankrupt within a month!

Also note that any bonuses can be refused and a lot of players prefer it this way. We do then give other bonus incentives like kick backs based on the players lost.

The definition of gambling is risking some money to be able to win big. Due to the welcome bonus given to loyal players and abused by others the risk is completely covered by the casino and not by players which can't be call a FAIR situation.

We pay 1000's of dollars every months to player "abusing" the welcome bonus. This is integral part of the game going on between advantage players and casinos but without making any game restrictions we would not survive 1 month.

I hope I gave you a better view of our T&C and why we unfortunately have to restrict playing some games. I'm confident everyone can see it as a FAIR and do not feel being ripped of by our T&C.

Any opinion is welcome and I would love to hear other players view on the subject.

Prohibiting certain games is fair, however not saying so PLAINLY is trickery, and is what gets casinos a bad name. Where terms state games do not contribite towards meeting WR, they mean just that, play on the games has a 0% weighting, but can still be played as part of the casino experience.
If play on certain games is not wanted at all, then the term should be absolutely clear on the matter, and not open to argument. It should state something along the lines of "ANY play on <...list of games> is PROHIBITED until such time as the full WR has been completed on eligible games". This should be followed by an outline of the consequences, such as the account being locked and deposits returned.

One further problem is that the restrictions are so wide in this case that they protect far beyond what is necessary in the way of 50/50 chance games and big starting bets, by including such games as Poker three, where although big wins are possible, the chances of hitting them are around 1 in 400 rather than 1 in 2. Placing your entire bankroll on the pair plus of Poker three is hardly going to be a worthwhile "abuse" play unless the "abuser" can do this at many hundreds of casinos, or casino accounts.
Such lengthy restrictions actually puts me off, as it makes the casino look like they really don't want to give any chance of winning from the first deposit bonus, and may well "invent something" when a player manages to pull something out of the proverbial hat on an allowed game! I would really only consider playing slots with a bonus when faced with such terms, and if I didn't think much of the slots I would not even bother.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Ok, let me share our (fresh) experience with regards to bonus "abuse" or advantage players.

We paid out and average of XX'XXX per month to players that deposited 1 time and never again. Mostly players organized in groups from the same countries (greece, finland, turkey, netherlands, france). The game used to beat the bonus were mainly pokerthree, carebean, let them ride and some others.

You can do the math for yourselves and see that at poker three betting 10 times the max of 200 you will highly end up in more than 50% of the time in having around 1800 in winnings. This as least was our experience and it was not a viable long term business.

We explicitly state in bold that those games can't be plaid before meeting the WR (Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Bets placed in the games Craps, Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Blackjack (all sorts of blackjack), Video Poker (all sorts of Video Poker), Sic Bo, Poker Three and Baccarat does not fulfil the player's obligations with regard to the minimum wagering requirements.

The above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void.


This information is also added in the emails send to the players when the bonus is given.

To be frankly honest I also dislike to have to restrict some games but the current competition among online casino is forcing us to give this kind of first deposit bonuses and we opted for a relatively low WR of 12x bonus+deposit where other casinos required 25 and up to 80 times WR and give 300% or more. This is in my eyes unfair!

Also reviewing the number of times (total of 13 cases) we had to cut winnings because a player played restricted games before meeting the WR I can fairly assume that the T&C rules are clear to the wast majority of our players. In most cases the problem occurs due to lack of English knowledge by foreign players.

I truly would prefer to highly rewards our loyal players with kickback bonuses that could be played on any games, more the way it happen in landbase casinos. Not one landbase casino in the world would ever give you 200$ for free on your first casino visit for you to gamble on any game you want.

You must understand that any type of bonuses given to players dramatically change the odds of the games from a + house edge do an highly - one. Now due to certain players (group of players) taking great advantage of this facts (never risking their own $ but only the bonuses) their is noway for an online casino investing $ to get new players (signup bonuses) to ever get their marketing costs back as those players will never ever consider to make a second deposit in the casino. The invested $ for new player acquisition is then lost for ever!

This is the reason we tried to setup our bonus program to be fair to the FAIR loyal players and getting a minimal protection against "unfair" players. It is a difficult balance to be fined but I'm confident to have one of the fairest bonus program in the industry compare to the wast majority of other online casinos.

We are currently working with playtech to setup new type of bonuses that would be better tailored to any player taste and therefore meet better our fairness criteria.

Again any input on the way bonuses, incentives should be given is highly welcome.
 

lojo

Banned User - repetitive violations of <a href="ht
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Location
USA
So glad to see open honest attentive reps here, kudos!

I know it would be a chore to create a software solution, but maybe not. From a players standpoint it would be nice to be playing, hit the button to play roulette and have a pop-up tell me that's not such a good idea, and why.

Simplistic, but sometimes...
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
So glad to see open honest attentive reps here, kudos!

I know it would be a chore to create a software solution, but maybe not. From a players standpoint it would be nice to be playing, hit the button to play roulette and have a pop-up tell me that's not such a good idea, and why.

Simplistic, but sometimes...

That's one of the idea we are actually following. On every bonus given a popup in the casino lobby would require the player to acknowledge it and would show the T&C for this special bonus again. The bonus could be also refused at that time. An even more elaborated bonus system would give the player say 100 in bonuses with game restrictions, removing one game from the list would take away i.e 10 from the given bonus...hhmmm maybe i'm talking already too much and give good ideas to our competitors ;-).
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Terms

That's one of the idea we are actually following. On every bonus given a popup in the casino lobby would require the player to acknowledge it and would show the T&C for this special bonus again. The bonus could be also refused at that time. An even more elaborated bonus system would give the player say 100 in bonuses with game restrictions, removing one game from the list would take away i.e 10 from the given bonus...hhmmm maybe i'm talking already too much and give good ideas to our competitors ;-).

Openness is certainly appreciated. I agree that adding the term in bold stating the games can't be played is certainly clear. Was this the case when the OP raised this issue?

You say that the WR is low, and that you feel that the 25x other casinos is unfair, however, I notice that I would be required to wager this "unfair" 25x if I played in my own currency (), and yet still not be able to play the games that give me a chance. Worse, the bonus is only a play bonus, and can never be withdrawn. The ONLY way to tackle these types of bonus is to find a way of making big bets with a decent chance of hitting big enough. I can see why poker 3 was added, this was from experience rather than just plucking the game out of thin air.
One problem is that in defending the bonuses against players who only want to play once, you are making it look unattractive to other players who take the trouble to read the terms rather than the headlines.
Another thing that might put off loyalty is the fact that the second and third bonuses cannot be used by players who have made a withdrawal from the first one. This might give the impression that loyal players do not generally get bonuses.
One way to gain loyalty is to give the impression that loyal players will eventually get much bigger bonuses by staying with the casino eather than looking for more new player bonuses elsewhere. You would need to ensure that these do not flow until a player has established a depositing record, perhaps by having accumulated so many comp points. I have played at many casinos, but few have attractive promotions for regular players, yet these regular players can see what "their" casino is handing out to newer players.

As well as bonuses, tournaments are a good way to keep players interested, especially with a live scoreboard. A number of MG casinos have introduced these, and the prizes on offer can be impressive. RiverBelle recently ran one with a top prize of 2500, this certainly worked for me as I deposited more during the event than over the past year at the casino - I did, of course, win the tournament:D (yep, another one tennis_balls:p )
Other casinos have tried the buy in route, firstly Cryptologic and now Microgaming at Royal Vegas. These will appeal to low rollers as well as high rollers, as the outlay for participation is fixed, and all players start with the same amount of tournament chips and time.

While bonuses are used to attract players, it is important to be clear what is allowed and what is not. Too many casinos have terms whereby they can say they just didn't like your play and lets them confiscate the winnings. This is just too open to misuse, and only serves to provide bad publicity when the aggrieved players argue their case in the forums and the casino is unable to prove they had clear terms.

With 100% to $200 (200) - it is no surprise you are getting hit by bonus players, this is at the high end for sign-up offers, and there are clever ways around "play" bonuses that are lost on the players you really want to attract, who might simply be put off by the "play" nature of the bonus as against a casino that will let the bonus be withdrawn after the "unfair" 25x or 40x WR.
 

tristan727

Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca
Joined
May 31, 2006
Location
London
Amazing how so many other casinos allow these games but don't go bankrupt - in fact make a healthy profit.:rolleyes:

I'm not from any of the countries the rep mentioned, but I still got bonus-banned, before I even played here. I'm VIP at dozens of online casino's - but one Playtech (I have a good guess who, since Totesport had the cheek to deny me a 10 slots bonus I'd earned before they bonus-banned me) took umbrage against a casino session or two I had, and now find myself banned at every Playtech under the sun- most using words I find quite libellious & un-necessary - stuff like 'we have to protect ourselves against fraudulent activity'. Well gee, sorry I spent a weekend playing Blackjack with a 75 x W.R. somewhere instead of 'Hole-in-one' - why don't you stick my photo on a milk carton or something. I don't deposit once & run-off, I am a recurring player who play's 3/4ths card games, and 1/4th fruit/leisure games - sadly this is evidently completely unacceptable to likes of Playtech's.

So here's a suggestion to Mr.Casino rep - simply exclude your Turkish, Nigerian accounts from playing - and focus on the 1st world, keeping vigilant for multiple accounts - offer reasonable bonuses on games where you can't rig it (ie a roulette player betting on black or red) - and watch how many players do stupid things like standing on 14 when dealer shows a ten. You just might find you still have a viable business, even if some people actually know how to play the game. Then, a few months down the line - see who's winning consistently without really risking their own funds - and politely advise them they are no longer welcome to bonuses. Why certain other casino's feel the need to do this after one session, or to also close your account to boot, is beyond me - other than a complete panic & lack of understanding of the business & the effect on their rep.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
You say that the WR is low, and that you feel that the 25x other casinos is unfair, however, I notice that I would be required to wager this "unfair" 25x if I played in my own currency (), and yet still not be able to play the games that give me a chance. Worse, the bonus is only a play bonus, and can never be withdrawn.

As the current exchange rate US$ to 1.96 you are only slightly worse of playing with than with $. UK resident have the choice to play in /$/ from our experience also Turkish players prefer playing with :eek2: strange isn't it?

The ONLY way to tackle these types of bonus is to find a way of making big bets with a decent chance of hitting big enough. I can see why poker 3 was added, this was from experience rather than just plucking the game out of thin air.

Your statement clearly shows that a wast majority of players are after getting bonuses and finding ways to profit from them. It has nothing more to do with gambling for recreation but more the sport of trying to beat the casino at zero risk for the player.

One problem is that in defending the bonuses against players who only want to play once, you are making it look unattractive to other players who take the trouble to read the terms rather than the headlines.

Please explain this to me, we do have the same T&C for every players.

Another thing that might put off loyalty is the fact that the second and third bonuses cannot be used by players who have made a withdrawal from the first one. This might give the impression that loyal players do not generally get bonuses.

This T&C was never applied in practice to any players in our casino. But I can follow your reflection and will have a look into it (thanks).

One way to gain loyalty is to give the impression that loyal players will eventually get much bigger bonuses by staying with the casino eather than looking for more new player bonuses elsewhere. You would need to ensure that these do not flow until a player has established a depositing record, perhaps by having accumulated so many comp points. I have played at many casinos, but few have attractive promotions for regular players, yet these regular players can see what "their" casino is handing out to newer players.

We do have a monthly loyalty bonus in place as well as the XXL bonus days that give loyal players 50% on any of their deposits during 5 days in the current month. Then we practice a kickback bonus on lost throughout the month on players deposits and have a 10% kickback promotion on cumulated lost for the last 5 days of each month. Given you free cash on the first day of the following month. Those bonuses are reserved to our loyal players and are greatly appreciated.

As well as bonuses, tournaments are a good way to keep players interested, especially with a live scoreboard. A number of MG casinos have introduced these, and the prizes on offer can be impressive. RiverBelle recently ran one with a top prize of 2500, this certainly worked for me as I deposited more during the event than over the past year at the casino - I did, of course, win the tournament:D (yep, another one tennis_balls:p )

Congratulation on your winning. We are definitely looking in having comp points tournament in the future.

Other casinos have tried the buy in route, firstly Cryptologic and now Microgaming at Royal Vegas. These will appeal to low rollers as well as high rollers, as the outlay for participation is fixed, and all players start with the same amount of tournament chips and time.

Surely another good idea to implement, thanks.

While bonuses are used to attract players, it is important to be clear what is allowed and what is not. Too many casinos have terms whereby they can say they just didn't like your play and lets them confiscate the winnings. This is just too open to misuse, and only serves to provide bad publicity when the aggrieved players argue their case in the forums and the casino is unable to prove they had clear terms.

This was never the case in our casino and we paid every $ won by "advantage" players.

With 100% to $200 (200) - it is no surprise you are getting hit by bonus players, this is at the high end for sign-up offers, and there are clever ways around "play" bonuses that are lost on the players you really want to attract, who might simply be put off by the "play" nature of the bonus as against a casino that will let the bonus be withdrawn after the "unfair" 25x or 40x WR.

I can't follow you on this statement.

Also please note that cerdikola didn't encounter any problem with our casino but wanted to point out his finding in our T&C about the restricted games. We changed our T&C only twice in a year, added poker three in the restricted game list and marked "the above mentioned restricted games CAN'T be played before fulfilling the wagering requirement or all winnings will be void." in bold 7 months ago.

Thank you for taking the time to analyze and give your player opinion on our T&Cs I really appreciate it and will follow up on some points you have mentioned that make great sense.
 

cerdikola

Low Roller
Joined
Dec 26, 2006
Location
Spain
That's one of the idea we are actually following. On every bonus given a popup in the casino lobby would require the player to acknowledge it and would show the T&C for this special bonus again. The bonus could be also refused at that time. An even more elaborated bonus system would give the player say 100 in bonuses with game restrictions, removing one game from the list would take away i.e 10 from the given bonus...hhmmm maybe i'm talking already too much and give good ideas to our competitors ;-).

That could be perfect ;)

------------------------
My post was just an advice for future XXL Club Casino Players.
I'm just not happy with that term, if you play prohibited games your bonus will ve avoid is ok, but winnings too?

No more to say, thanks for your responses XXL rep., I always will love your casino ;)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Bonuses

Many gamblers play because they hope to hit a big win. While they know that they are more likely to lose, they at least need to feel they have a chance.

The statement about the exchange rate between $ and regarding the WR means nothing. The casino runs in "credits" and plays no differently in either currency. Since the bonus is only a PLAY bonus, AND the terms prohibit any form of doubling up from an initial big bet, there is no advantage in using pounds against dollars.
The only advantage in using pounds, as the Turks seem to favour, is in making the "abuse play" of a big initial bet. As the casino has paid out on such advantage play, players will continue to spread the work. Now that the prohibition is in the T & C, there would be no problem in enforcing it provided you did not start picking and choosing players based on prejudice (such as only enforcing it for Turks).
While I have the option of using dollars, and having only half the playthrough, I would then suffer losses through the exchange rates offered by the processors, which are bad, worse even than "tourist" rates on offer at "Bureau de change".
I can see a use for a play bonus though, and that would be if wager tournaments were offered, such as players who wager the most on certain games competing with each other for a set of prizes (which would be cashable). This is how the BelleRock tournament worked, and cashability and WR of any bonus would be irrelevant, as it would be a case of deciding how much to deposit, and playing astutely with a view to getting the most playthrough possible, and thus the highest score possible.

As for Turks using pounds, don't let them! Have the software prevent registration in pounds unless the player is from the UK. Other players should have a free choice between the Euro or the Dollar. Turks are using the pound because they are trying to profit from the bonus, and have factored in the exchange rate losses on making a bigger deposit to start with. Ideally, you should offer all the currencies used in your marketplace, so that every player can play in their home currency, and suffer no exchange losses on deposits and withdrawals.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Amazing how so many other casinos allow these games but don't go bankrupt - in fact make a healthy profit.:rolleyes:

I'm not from any of the countries the rep mentioned, but I still got bonus-banned, before I even played here. I'm VIP at dozens of online casino's - but one Playtech (I have a good guess who) took umbrage against a casino session or two I had, and now find myself banned at every Playtech under the sun- most using words I find quite libellious & un-necessary - stuff like 'we have to protect ourselves against fraudulent activity'. Well gee, sorry I spent a weekend playing Blackjack somewhere instead of 'Hole-in-one' - why don't you stick my photo on a milk carton or something. I don't deposit once & run-off, I am a recurring player who play's 3/4ths card games, and 1/4th fruit/leisure games - sadly this is evidently completely unacceptable to likes of Playtech's.

So here's a suggestion to Mr.Casino rep - simply exclude your Turkish, Nigerian accounts from playing - and focus on the 1st world, keeping vigilant for multiple accounts - offer reasonable bonuses on games where you can't rig it (ie a roulette player betting on black or red) - and watch how many players do stupid things like standing on 14 when dealer shows a ten. You just might find you still have a viable business, even if some people actually know how to play the game.

tristan

Like I mentioned in some other post, every playtech ban can be lifted by each casino. This is handled on a one to one relation with the players upon request send to the casino manager.

By default and because advantage players handle very fast deposit/play/withdraw within 3-5 min, we do block automatically black listed players on a platform level.

I know from my own experience as a player that getting (being put) on a black list can be the cause of a wrong interpretation of behaviors in one casino leading to the ban on the operating platform. I'm therefore more than happy to review your account (PM me) and lift any sanction you experience on the playtech platform in our casino.

I don't deposit once & run-off, I am a recurring player who play's 3/4ths card games, and 1/4th fruit/leisure games - sadly this is evidently completely unacceptable to likes of Playtech's.

We do not block players that are winners or that only play card games this is not the true. We have many players refusing any type of bonuses except for kickback bonuses on lost that likes to play BJ switch or any other high skilled card games. Some of them seems to be winning over months and cashout many $ we honor any of their withdrawals and they keep coming back and deposit again to win again. We have absolutely nothing against this type of players that are loyal, skilled and lucky.

XXL Club is not here for the short term and trying to make quick and dirty winnings but looking for a long term profitable business on a global operation (casino, poker, mobile and iVTs).
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Many gamblers play because they hope to hit a big win. While they know that they are more likely to lose, they at least need to feel they have a chance.

The statement about the exchange rate between $ and regarding the WR means nothing. The casino runs in "credits" and plays no differently in either currency. Since the bonus is only a PLAY bonus, AND the terms prohibit any form of doubling up from an initial big bet, there is no advantage in using pounds against dollars.
The only advantage in using pounds, as the Turks seem to favour, is in making the "abuse play" of a big initial bet. As the casino has paid out on such advantage play, players will continue to spread the work. Now that the prohibition is in the T & C, there would be no problem in enforcing it provided you did not start picking and choosing players based on prejudice (such as only enforcing it for Turks).
While I have the option of using dollars, and having only half the playthrough, I would then suffer losses through the exchange rates offered by the processors, which are bad, worse even than "tourist" rates on offer at "Bureau de change".
I can see a use for a play bonus though, and that would be if wager tournaments were offered, such as players who wager the most on certain games competing with each other for a set of prizes (which would be cashable). This is how the BelleRock tournament worked, and cashability and WR of any bonus would be irrelevant, as it would be a case of deciding how much to deposit, and playing astutely with a view to getting the most playthrough possible, and thus the highest score possible.

As for Turks using pounds, don't let them! Have the software prevent registration in pounds unless the player is from the UK. Other players should have a free choice between the Euro or the Dollar. Turks are using the pound because they are trying to profit from the bonus, and have factored in the exchange rate losses on making a bigger deposit to start with. Ideally, you should offer all the currencies used in your marketplace, so that every player can play in their home currency, and suffer no exchange losses on deposits and withdrawals.

We do have a T&C stating that can only be used by UK residents but were first reluctant to enforce this extra rule. We do now block opening accounts in if the country of residency is not UK.

About the exchange rate overcharge it's a real problem but not in our control unfortunately we therefore try to handle as much currencies as we can /$//RRub for our key markets. But at playtech casinos you do not play with credits but in your currency so there is a difference, especially what you mentioned with 1-3 big bets.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Credits

We do have a T&C stating that can only be used by UK residents but were first reluctant to enforce this extra rule. We do now block opening accounts in if the country of residency is not UK.

About the exchange rate overcharge it's a real problem but not in our control unfortunately we therefore try to handle as much currencies as we can /$//RRub for our key markets. But at playtech casinos you do not play with credits but in your currency so there is a difference, especially what you mentioned with 1-3 big bets.

While the casino recognises currency, my argument is as follows. if I deposit $200, I suffer exchange losses, but have to wager only 12x, however if I deposit 100, which is roughly equivalent to $200 (give or take), I have to wager 25x - not because 100 is more than $200, but because I am from the UK. This indicates to me that you have an "issue" with players from the UK, whatever that may be, and I play at casinos that do not differentiate between UK and non-UK players with respect to how much wagering is applied to any promotion. I would play though, if they offered bonuses up to $200, but restricted it to the equivalent 100 for UK Pounds.
While you have expressed concern about a couple of big bets being used to attack the bonus, you have pretty much put a stop to this with the prohibited games list. Video Poker seems an oddity, a big bet here is far less likely to result in a big win from a big bet unless you are pat dealt something really good on your first hand, which is about as likely as hitting big on your first slot spin. The only remaining possibility of making big bets is the slot games, $400 (including $200 play bonus), could be used at, say, $25 or even $50 per spin on a slot with a good mid range paytable, and hoping for a decent hit. Given enough accounts, this would work in the long term, yet would still be seen as a "loophole" by advantage players since you prohibit a large list of games to prevent big bet possibilities rather than prohibit the big bets themselves.
Most players that seem "connected" in attacking the bonuses are not in "evil syndicates", but have joined advantage play forums, subscribed to "premium content" areas of bonus whoring websites, or even bought the casino eBook from eBay. The information needed to attack any kind of bonus you could possibly think of is available for free on the Wizard of odds website, although a degree in mathematics is helful for understanding the finer points.
Advantage players do not necessarily need to understand this though, they need to be able to follow instructions to the letter, however bizarre they may seem. This is why you get a number of new accounts who deposit the same amount, play the exact same strategies on the exact same games, and withdraw at the earliest opportunity, probably never to return. They are simply following a list of instructions from their chosen portal. It isn't like card counting in a B & M casino, where it takes time and effort to develop the skill to get it right, mainly because you are not allowed to bring in computers to use while you play at the blackjack tables.
Fraudulent players are a different matter, and should not be confused with mere "advantage players". These frauds work because one player uses as many accounts as is needed to get the big advantage hit. They could win even with the most draconian list of restricted games (they would just need to try more often with more accounts). What you see as syndicates are a more sophisticated play on this, where each account is created with genuine and verifiable details, but these will often be opened from the same place, and this place will often not match the account details. This is why it is unwise to register anywhere other than your home PC, but T & C tend to explain this in a rather technical manner, waffling on about IP addresses, MAC identifiers and so on, most players will simply read, but not understand a word of this, and assume it must not be a problem - so go ahead and register at work/university/friends house - something that could get them mistakenly flagged as a fraudulent account along with those accounts that really are created fraudulently.
It is far better that such terms are enforced by the software as soon as players attempt to register, and I know that Playtech software can do this instantly if it detects such registration breaches, producing a "contact support" message and locking the account temporarily.

The mention of a "Playtech blacklist" is interesting, and illegal under data protection laws where a player given no opportunity to correct the information. While this can happen with credit reference agencies, data protection laws give the person the right to see their entire file, and to demand wrong information is corrected either by the offending company or by them adding their own disclaimer to their file. I doubt the Playtech blacklist adheres to these rules, and for much of the time the industry has tried to insult our intelligence by claiming these "rumours" of industry wide blacklists are without foundation. It seems possible to get on these blacklists not for fraud, but just for winning too much by playing the "wrong games", usually card games.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
The mention of a "Playtech blacklist" is interesting, and illegal under data protection laws where a player given no opportunity to correct the information. While this can happen with credit reference agencies, data protection laws give the person the right to see their entire file, and to demand wrong information is corrected either by the offending company or by them adding their own disclaimer to their file. I doubt the Playtech blacklist adheres to these rules, and for much of the time the industry has tried to insult our intelligence by claiming these "rumours" of industry wide blacklists are without foundation. It seems possible to get on these blacklists not for fraud, but just for winning too much by playing the "wrong games", usually card games.

I must correct my statement. It is not a list handled by "Playtech" but by a third service provider handling fraud service for most playtech casinos. These is an extra service casinos owners can subscribe to.

Every player's account closed due to being black listed get the chance to contact the casino and dispute this decision. We review each case one by one and decide either to lift the sanction against the player for our casino or not (like stated previously i this thread). In more than 90% of the cases the players do not bother contesting it either because they do not care and go playing else where or because the reasons are valid.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Point

I must correct my statement. It is not a list handled by "Playtech" but by a third service provider handling fraud service for most playtech casinos. These is an extra service casinos owners can subscribe to.

Every player's account closed due to being black listed get the chance to contact the casino and dispute this decision. We review each case one by one and decide either to lift the sanction against the player for our casino or not (like stated previously i this thread). In more than 90% of the cases the players do not bother contesting it either because they do not care and go playing else where or because the reasons are valid.

The point is this would still be illegal. In order to add a players name to the blacklist, the casino has to forward the players personal details to an unnacountable third party. In the credit market, where a person finds they are denied a credit card for example, they have the legal right to know whether a third party credit reference agency was used, and to be given the details of that agency. The person then has the legal right to have sent to them the entire contents of their credit file, and to have any incorrect information removed.
In the casino case, one casino decides that a player has done something wrong, and add their name to the blacklist. While the player can dispute this with the casino, it is often the case that once the casino has decided you are a fraud they simply won't listen to your defence. There have been many cases on this forum where innocent players get caught up in this, and are unable to get the casino to so much as reply to e-mails, let alone hear their defence. Where Casinomeister has intervened, it has been discovered that SOME of these players have been wrongly accused. In such cases, adding their names to an industry wide blacklist is legal libel (as the information is not true, and damages the player by them being regarded as a "convicted" fraudster by other, and unrelated, parties). Were the offending casino based in a "proper" juristiction, or were the third party hosting the blacklist so hosted, the player could take civil court action for damages against the casino and list hosting company. Exercising these rights is hard where casinos hide behind "secret" organisations by saying that the blacklisting service is done "by a third party provider". To whom would an aggrieved player send the civil court summons?
Players who know full well they are guilty would not take the matter to court, as if they lost they would find it would be THEY paying damages. Wronged players, as well as any possible compensation, would,get a court order requiring removal from the blacklist, or correction of any information shown to be wrong. Saying that individual casinos can choose to ignore the blacklist is not good enough, the slur still follows the player, and they always have to start with a cloud of suspicion at any new casino.
These third party blacklisters DO get it wrong, very wrong sometimes, and frequently. Sometimes it is due to an accidental similarity in names, especially with common names where the chance of more than one person having identical first and last names is very high, even in the same locality. Casinos assume it is the same person pretending to be two people, and can't believe it is coincidence and place both players on a blacklist, while the two players don't know WTF the casino is playig at, and add said casino to their own mental blacklist, and tell their friends and forum buddies.

Just look what happened to BelleRock when they screwed up a big fraud investigation by ensnaring a number of innocent players, then treating them like scumbags when they had the cheek to try to communicate with support to find out what was going on. It took intervention from Casinomeister and eCogra to sift the mess and redress the wronged players, and confirm those players that really had attempted to defraud the casino. These players had no absolute right to be heard, they had to fight hard to get others to listen and correct the injustice.

At least this casino has not gone that far, preferring instead to pay "advantage" players and then tweak the T & C to kill off the method.
Confiscating winnings after the fact is the worst thing any casino can do, it loses them friends in the player community. However, telling a player they cannot have bonuses BEFORE they play, will gain as much sympathy for the casino as for the player, and the player will be in the position of choosing to play with no bonus, or depositing at a different casino prepared to offer bonuses to the class of player they come from (such as Finnish, Israeli etc).
 

tristan727

Banned user - violation of <a href="http://www.ca
Joined
May 31, 2006
Location
London
Oh boy, a lot to read about here, when I come back from the pub.

Would just like to take issue with XXL's statement about advantage players not risking their own funds...this can be only achieved by playing min. stakes for a loooong period of time - something maybe ok for a 3rd World player where a bonus equals 2 months wages - but I can assure him that the vast majority of half-decent card players, like myself - take huge risks with their funds (I lost 3 grand for the whole month of Feb, and a grand down last week) and it shouldn't be difficult to filter them out.

But, these players know over the long-term that they should, providing they play perfectly & don't bet more than they can afford (something I continually fail to do - although when I do - I get banned:mad: ) - make a profit, presuming all casino's owing them money actually pay up...but their potential % harm to the business is surely small potatoes compared to the effect of banning everything insight & introducing ridiculous t&c's - look at the new tilacasino - something like 65 out of the 68 games are sign-up bonus-banned!:eek2:
 

Sodax77

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Location
EU|FI
Ok, let me share our (fresh) experience with regards to bonus "abuse" or advantage players.

...Mostly players organized in groups from the same countries (greece, finland, turkey, netherlands, france)...

Banned! Just added.

I really don't like this kind of statements.

Also i have proof, how your sister Casino: La Isla Bonita Casino,
have a some problems in past and recently.
 

XXLClubCasino

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 17, 2006
Location
Curacao
Banned! Just added.

I really don't like this kind of statements.

Also i have proof, how your sister Casino: La Isla Bonita Casino,
have a some problems in past and recently.

Hi sodax

Sorry if I've offended you with this statement this only reflect what happen in our casino and should not be taken personally. We by default welcome every players from every countries (not USA unfortunately) and any ethnic.

With regard to a "sister" casino "La Isla Bonita" we have absolutely nothing in common, we are neither sister, nor brother, nor do we share anything except having the same software provider.

Thank you for reviewing your statement.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Sister

Hi sodax

Sorry if I've offended you with this statement this only reflect what happen in our casino and should not be taken personally. We by default welcome every players from every countries (not USA unfortunately) and any ethnic.

With regard to a "sister" casino "La Isla Bonita" we have absolutely nothing in common, we are neither sister, nor brother, nor do we share anything except having the same software provider.

Thank you for reviewing your statement.

Yes, sometimes we players make mistakes too. We identify relationships between casinos based on similarities of location, promotional and management style, software provider, website design, and similarities in the more unusual provisions of T & C. Admittedly, innocent casinos get tangled up in this broad brush approach, but us players are prepared to make an exception where a casino from a "roguish category" is able to provide evidence that they do not fit the mould.
You must understand that the real rogues have no interest in us players knowing which casinos of theirs are related to each other as they would like us to deposit and lose in as many "skins" as possible.

It is with regret that I find there is no "tongue in cheek" smiley:D
 

Sodax77

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 15, 2004
Location
EU|FI
Hi sodax

Sorry if I've offended you with this statement this only reflect what happen in our casino and should not be taken personally. We by default welcome every players from every countries (not USA unfortunately) and any ethnic.

With regard to a "sister" casino "La Isla Bonita" we have absolutely nothing in common, we are neither sister, nor brother, nor do we share anything except having the same software provider.

Thank you for reviewing your statement.

Hi

Thanks for your reply.
I have read this thread a while. And it wasn't my personal opinion.
But after all, you are "Casino Representative" and then it is your Casino statement. Right?

Referring "sister casino" - There is a few examples, where player from La Isla Bonita Casino will get an answer from XXL Club Casino.
( email sent to La isla Bonita Casino - an answer came from XXL Club Casino)

I do not care, are you connected in any form to La Isla Bonita.

But your statement: "...Mostly players organized in groups from the same countries (greece, finland, turkey, netherlands, france)..."
Can you pleae proof that, please.
Eg. referring my country: Finland.

At least, You should write correctly. (with capital letters)
Finland, Turkey, etc ;)
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
The mention of a "Playtech blacklist" is interesting, and illegal under data protection laws where a player given no opportunity to correct the information. While this can happen with credit reference agencies, data protection laws give the person the right to see their entire file, and to demand wrong information is corrected either by the offending company or by them adding their own disclaimer to their file. I doubt the Playtech blacklist adheres to these rules, and for much of the time the industry has tried to insult our intelligence by claiming these "rumours" of industry wide blacklists are without foundation. It seems possible to get on these blacklists not for fraud, but just for winning too much by playing the "wrong games", usually card games.

As much as I hate blacklists, I think I'm going to have to disagree here. First of all, you are not issued credit. Secondly, you are not guaranteed any right to play at one or any number of casinos. And thirdly, this data does not have any affect on your credit record, your bank records, does not get attached to any official information, is not displayed publicly, etc.

Like it or not, a casino may choose to bar a player at any time for any reason, without any explanation, PROVIDED that the casino settles any debts which are due, assuming that no fraudulent (note - abusive is NOT necessarily fraudulent) play took place.

A bar may prevent you from entering their premises on the basis that you broke a chair and didn't pay for it - and the owner might tell his friends who would then possibly not admit you into their establishments.

Forget the fact that it wasn't you who broke the chair really - you happened to sit on a chair which was already heavily damaged and it broke completely when you sat down. The owner may or may not have known that fact - but you are still on his premises and he has the right to bar entry, and that's that.

Sucks, I agree. But trying to draw a connection between the issuing of credit (and thus being subject to data protection laws) and being barred at an establishment really doesn't make sense.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Disagree

As much as I hate blacklists, I think I'm going to have to disagree here. First of all, you are not issued credit. Secondly, you are not guaranteed any right to play at one or any number of casinos. And thirdly, this data does not have any affect on your credit record, your bank records, does not get attached to any official information, is not displayed publicly, etc.

Like it or not, a casino may choose to bar a player at any time for any reason, without any explanation, PROVIDED that the casino settles any debts which are due, assuming that no fraudulent (note - abusive is NOT necessarily fraudulent) play took place.

A bar may prevent you from entering their premises on the basis that you broke a chair and didn't pay for it - and the owner might tell his friends who would then possibly not admit you into their establishments.

Forget the fact that it wasn't you who broke the chair really - you happened to sit on a chair which was already heavily damaged and it broke completely when you sat down. The owner may or may not have known that fact - but you are still on his premises and he has the right to bar entry, and that's that.

Sucks, I agree. But trying to draw a connection between the issuing of credit (and thus being subject to data protection laws) and being barred at an establishment really doesn't make sense.

While not an exact comparison, the same holds true. A bank does not have to give anyone who asks credit, however, if they see you on a blacklist, this may have a negative influence on their decision. In this respect, being wrongly placed on a blacklist affects your life chances and choices. It is important that blacklists are accurate, and further that they are open to independent scrutiny. The data protection laws do not give anyone the right to remove information, but it gives them the right to ensure that it is correct.
With the Playtech blacklist, it is (or was) secret, and no one can even find out if they are on it. In the above example, of a customer falsely accused of breaking a chair, exclusion from that premises is not so relevant as the blackening of the customers name such that no other local premises is available to them. This can, and sometimes does, lead to civil court action where the wronged person can sue for compensation.
My particular objection to the casino industry online is that often it is only when the customer makes their first withdrawal that they are told they are ineligible for this and that, and are on some kind of list. the casino happliy takes their custom while they are losing. This is false pretences, as such a customer could never win, but could lose an amount limited only by willingness to deposit.
A blacklist would be far less of a problem if it was held by an independent agency, such that players had a means of redress if their name wrongly appears on it.
Casinos also appear on blacklists, but these are open to the casino to dispute their entry. Many casinos on Bryan's blacklist have been given the opportunity to petition for removal, and sometimes this has been done. The original rep reply seemed to indicate that while a blacklisted player could ask the individual casino for entry, they could never dispute their appearance on the Playtech blacklist.
Players should not be subject to far higher standards than casinos. Perhaps if players can never get their name off a blacklist, perhaps there is a case for never allowing a casino redemption for perceived past sins - indeed, there are cases where forgivness seems to have been misplaced.
If casinos really were being seriously affected by fraud, they would fundamentally change the way they operate, rather than have these purges - and then simply making the same mistakes all over again. Current behaviour makes me think the only thing that interests them is making money as quickly as possible, providing entertaining promotions is a necessary evil toward the end goal, and they would rather we just play and lose, and never bother calling CS to ask questions about the rules for this or that offer.

I have seen too many TV expose documentaries about big business to believe that all the loyalty schemes they run are for OUR benefit, they are all about making it easier for businesses to manipulate us into spending more.
I have had casinos stop sending me offers, not because I didn't play regularly, or abused their generosity, but because I had a couple of lucky hits, and they just decided that winning back the money through further enticements was not worth the bother. There are a couple that offer me the same, despite my luck, or lack of it - and these continue to get my custom.
 
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