wofacai bonus issue: Pontoon = Blackjack Game?

[lojo]

bejeebibs! wofaci casinos?

 

[cyprean]

I believe that Tristan has a clear case here and SHOULD be paid.

Reasoning behind this

1) T&C 13.3. The first credits wagered will be deducted from your deposit(s) rather than from the PLAY BONUS.

He didn't use the bonus funds to play Pontoon.

2) T&C 13.14. Wofaca Casino reserves the right to withhold any amount in excess of the players original deposit from a player's withdrawal if the bonus is wagered in Roulette (all sorts of Roulette), Baccarat (all sorts of Baccarat), Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack, Craps (all sorts of Craps), SicBo (all sorts of SicBo) or Pontoon.

Player's own credits and winnings, not bonus, were wagered. Thus the player did not break the 13.14.

3) In the previous T&C only 2 BJ games were disallowed: BJ Switch and Surrender. Not pontoon.

4) Casinos are designed to attract recreational players. (although complicated T&Cs could confuse most lawyers) How a player who isn't a pro gambler is supposed to know that Pontoon is a Blackjack family game? If a recreational player surfs around the games and selects a cool sounding game called Pontoon and as it not not named on the "forbidden games list" like blackjack switch is, how on earth the casino justifies stealing this player's winnings based on not knowing that game belongs to the blackjack family? A recreational player might easily do this and the casino needs to update their terms and conditions.


A polite message to the casino:
Please pay the player. Update the T&Cs to better serve players.

 

[lojo]

You make an excellent argument here Cyprean, as does Tristan. My two cents is that the player should be paid. If the casino wants to clarify it's terms after the fact, they might as well sign up to wikipedia and edit the pontoon page to mention blackjack, or the blackjack page to mention pontoon.

 

[Dirk Diggler]

Spear - I'm sorry but there is no way a player can be expected to know Pontoon is considered to be covered under the umbrellla 'all sorts of blackjack'.

I'm sure this has been brought up many a time and surely only games with 'blackjack' in the name can be classed so definitively. It's the casinos responsibility to clarify this in their terms if they want it to be excluded.

The fact they changed their terms to include it shows they know they weren't clear and therefore any doubt should be in favour of the player.

 

[lojo]

And the OP may well have learned that the time spent using bonuses would be better spent on overtime at work and playing without them? Any thoughts T?

 

[spearmaster]

I am only commenting - pontoon is commonly known as a form of blackjack - if you go to the Wizard of Odds you will see that Pontoon is also known as Spanish 21 - and in his first breath he mentions blackjack as well.

Lojo, if you look for "pontoon" in Wikipedia, it says:

For the card game, see Blackjack.

and no, I didn't edit it and I doubt it was edited yesterday.

I don't know where you guys are finding that pontoon is significantly different than blackjack to the point where it is not obvious... Dirk, anyone who's played pontoon even once would know that this is essentially blackjack - your argument doesn't hold water. And for Tristan to argue that he didn't know it was blackjack would make him look really silly.

 

[lojo]

Well then, I look silly here. I didn't control f the wiki pages, just scanned them with me eyes.

Some casinos provide pontoon as a form of bj, I'm ignorant with playtech. If the player went to a kiosk and pontoon was delineated as a blackjack game this would be more simple.

If OP is a 'bonus abuser', seems not, I wouldn't bother to post.

Unless something else comes up, I think the casino should pay the player and the player, as well as we, should learn our lesson. bonus play is not worth the hassle for gamers

The casino should provide a kiosk of blackjack games as well, if they don't already.

 

[tristan727]

And the OP may well have learned that the time spent using bonuses would be better spent on overtime at work and playing without them? Any thoughts T?

Hi Lojo,
Why do you keep saying I am playing or using a bonus, when their terms state beyond any shadow of a doubt that I didn't? This is the 'smoking gun' point I made, and Cypreat re-iterated succintly, which I note Spearmaster has not addressed yet - despite it being 100% Crystal Clear from their terms that I am entitled to all, bar the bonus - which they have now made a Play bonus anyways.

As regards to all this clarifications and adding on of terms etc. though, wouldn't a reasonable & honest casino operator, at the minimum. just say to you 'sorry - we meant pontoon too, we can see you didn't employ any bonus abuse strategies though, so if you could please wager another 12k on allowed games before withdrawing, enjoy the casino'. Do some here really think instead it is acceptable to take the opportunity to sieze all my funds, bar the deposit, because of this confusion, at least partly caused by themselves, & that I therefore have no case?!

This assertion that I should know it is blackjack is nonsense. For one thing it is not - it is just like it. When a casino says 'any blackjack game' that to me, and most other people with a day-job, means simply any game with the word Blackjack...Surrender, Single-deck, switch etc. They would think that Pontoon is allowed as there is a lot more risk involved, with tie's counting as a loss - and numerous ways of tripling your money. All other casino's bother to make this clarification. The ones who don't merely revise the terms & get on with life.

Also you are all simply guessing that the issue is related to Pontoon by the way - after numerous phone calls and emails from them - they still haven't even deigned to give the reason for this 'bonus abuse'. The re-wording of their terms this week still treats Pontoon as if it was a completely seperable game to Blackjack, the only thing they have in common is being banned. A very reasonable conclusion a layman could come to, is that therefore they just simply decided, post-wager, they didn't like this game they barely know, and decided to confiscate my funds as a result. ie. does not 'Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack, Craps (all sorts of Craps), SicBo (all sorts of SicBo) or Pontoon.' mean that Craps is not a sort of BJ, nor is SicBo, nor Pontoon?

 

[lojo]

Hi Lojo,
Why do you keep saying I am playing or using a bonus, when their terms state beyond any shadow of a doubt that I didn't? This is the 'smoking gun' point I made, and Cypreat re-iterated succintly, which I note Spearmaster has not addressed yet - despite it being 100% Crystal Clear from their terms that I am entitled to all, bar the bonus - which they have now made a Play bonus anyways.

As regards to all this clarifications and adding on of terms etc. though, wouldn't a reasonable & honest casino operator, at the minimum. just say to you 'sorry - we meant pontoon too, we can see you didn't employ any bonus abuse strategies though, so if you could please wager another 12k on allowed games before withdrawing, enjoy the casino'. Do some here really think instead it is acceptable to take the opportunity to sieze all my funds, bar the deposit, because of this confusion, at least partly caused by themselves, & that I therefore have no case?!

This assertion that I should know it is blackjack is nonsense. For one thing it is not - it is just like it. When a casino says 'any blackjack game' that to me, and most other people with a day-job, means simply any game with the word Blackjack...Surrender, Single-deck, switch etc. They would think that Pontoon is allowed as there is a lot more risk involved, with tie's counting as a loss - and numerous ways of tripling your money. All other casino's bother to make this clarification. The ones who don't merely revise the terms & get on with life.

Also you are all simply guessing that the issue is related to Pontoon by the way - after numerous phone calls and emails from them - they still haven't even deigned to give the reason for this 'bonus abuse'. The re-wording of their terms this week still treats Pontoon as if it was a completely seperable game to Blackjack, the only thing they have in common is being banned. A very reasonable conclusion a layman could come to, is that therefore they just simply decided, post-wager, they didn't like this game they barely know, and decided to confiscate my funds as a result.

I only read your first paragraph (sorry tired etc.) deleted

 

[cyprean]

I am only commenting - pontoon is commonly known as a form of blackjack - if you go to the Wizard of Odds

Wizard of Odds? What's that? A pro gambling site? "The last word on gambling strategy". How a recreational player would be able to know that site?

I personally never even had heard of Pontoon until I found a thread on how to play the game on the internet. I have never ever found in any casinos I've played in.

As regards to all this clarifications and adding on of terms etc. though, wouldn't a reasonable & honest casino operator, at the minimum. just say to you 'sorry - we meant pontoon too, we can see you didn't employ any bonus abuse strategies though, so if you could please wager another 12k on allowed games before withdrawing, enjoy the casino'. Do some here really think instead it is acceptable to take the opportunity to sieze all my funds, bar the deposit, because of this confusion, at least partly caused by themselves, & that I therefore have no case?!

Valid point. I personally dislike the idea of INSTAstealing players funds as a honorable method of solving an issue. Even the "please wager another 12k "-rule is more reasonable.

The re-wording of their terms this week still treats Pontoon as if it was a completely seperable game to Blackjack, the only thing they have in common is being banned. A very reasonable conclusion a layman could come to, is that therefore they just simply decided, post-wager, they didn't like this game they barely know, and decided to confiscate my funds as a result. ie. does not 'Blackjack (all sorts of Blackjack, Craps (all sorts of Craps), SicBo (all sorts of SicBo) or Pontoon.' mean that Craps is not a sort of BJ, nor is SicBo, nor Pontoon?

Another valid point.

 

[lojo]

easy, see? solved... it's been a day or so.

 

[tristan727]

Not it's not resolved lojo - and as this represents the equivalent of 2 months savings for me, from my job (try living in London on the cheap), would appreciate if you could keep the comments relevant, rather than distracting & superflous.

 

[spearmaster]

I'm not addressing any other points because I do not want to get involved - I am pointing out, however, that pontoon is generally recognized as a blackjack game and for anyone to state otherwise is silly.

 

[tristan727]

Well, you are the only person here, so far, who is saying it is a Blackjack game - so everyone must be silly then I guess. Kind of like when you think maybe a crazy guy is really sane, and the rest of the world is mad instead.

Saying things like I do not have a reasonable claim, kind of gave me the idea you did want to get involved, oddly enough.

 

[spearmaster]

If anyone wants to challenge the general perception of the community, they are welcome to do so - that includes you, and the one or two people in here who you claim do not agree that Pontoon is a blackjack game.

Wikipedia agrees that Pontoon is a blackjack game. The Wizard of Odds agrees that Pontoon is a blackjack game. Most people I know who have played this game agree that it is essentially blackjack with five-card Charlie.

So if you believe I'm in the minority, that's your prerogative.

In the meantime the casino has not said that this is the reason for closing your account so the entire argument could be moot - but I am going to stand by my statement about pontoon.

Wikipedia, first paragraph -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Blackjack is one of the most popular casino card games in the world. Pontoon is an English variation of Blackjack with large rule and strategy differences. In Australia, however, Pontoon is exactly the same as the American game Spanish 21 but played without a hole card.

Wizard of Odds, first paragraph -

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Pontoon is sometimes said to be an early version of blackjack. Today Pontoon is offered by Real Time Gaming, Playtech, Microgaming, and Cryptologic Internet casinos. In Pontoon any five-card hand or a pontoon (same thing as a blackjack) pay 2 to 1, including after splitting. However there is no dealer up card and the dealer wins on ties. There are several other rule changes from blackjack so read carefully before playing.

Random House Dictionary at Infoplease.com - second definition - Link Removed

pon•toon

Pronunciation: (pon-tOOn'), [key]
—n. Brit.
the card game twenty-one.

Blackjack - Columbia Electronic Encyclopedia at Infoplease.com - Link Removed

blackjack, one of the world's most widely played gambling card games; also known as twenty-one or vingt-et-un

 

[tristan727]

English variation with large rule diffs, and early version of etc....none of it do I disagree with, and none of it says that it is Blackjack. In fact this is quite possibly an almost exact description & parallel regarding the relationship between the game of rounders & baseball - but you wouldn't like it much if someone called the Yankees a girly rounders team would you?

 

[spearmaster]

None of this changes the fact that Pontoon is clearly a type of blackjack by most definitions and it would be very difficult to construe as anything else. At the very least, it should've raised some doubt in your mind, enough so that you could easily have cleared this with support before beginning play.

I somehow doubt that you are the ignorant type - clearly you raise some interesting issues, and some valid points as well - but this bit about pontoon not being distinguishable as a form of blackjack kind of raises the eyebrows.

And btw, us Americans often call the Yankees a rounders team... or the Mets...

 

[uungy]

The issue of if Pontoon is BJ (which I personally think its not) is really a side issue here

The main problem is, the company has chosen to close and refund the deposit, the reason given was nothing to do with "if Pontoon is BJ", only the player/s was a bonus abuser, which is not the case.They only changed the terms afterwards, which shows (from their own wording) that they dont consider it a variant of BJ.

Changing and adding this clause, is only something which reduces the honesty and integrity of a casino, as it shows they think that a player has gained while playing, and the sole intention is to block that!

Blackjack and Pontoon are both in the same category "21 Games" (see Oxford dictionary), but are total different games.

 

[tristan727]

Another point which only I seemed to touch on - is that most casino's do not ban games on the basis of %return - but on the risk to the player's funds. ie. Roulette only pays about 97%, no matter how you pile the chips - but is banned absolutely everywhere.

The fact that Pontoon is a game involving much higher risk therefore, explains why it is not banned in many places I could name - and why a reasonable minded punter could assume was not banned here, when it said any blackjack games. And then later when changed to 'any blackjack games or Pontoon' - this is in itself a blatant admission that Pontoon is not blackjack. Otherwise they would have said any BJ games, such as or including Pontoon. So, regardless of whether Spearmaster or anyone else believes it's the same - this casino doesn't & nor do many others.

But I'm repeating myself now, and this is only a side issue to the fact their terms state I did not play with bonus funds and that they only remove winnings derived from bonuses, when playing ineligible games....can you at least agree with me on this point Spearmaster, and that I should be paid my winnings, sans bonus if you like? Or would you interpret the t&c's differently somehow?

 

[lojo]

i guess, whether you like it or not OP, my question comes down to whether you've had this kind of problem before,or not.

i was of the understanding you weren't a habitual bonus player. I stood up for you in that case. If you have a bitch, pitch it. It don't mean nothing to a sagebrush, and you can piss in the wind if you want to talk to me that way. bye.

 

[tristan727]

Sorry if you find my reply to your statement 'easy, see? solved... it's been a day or so.' rude Lojo - but I interpreted it as if you were the one being rude, and making light of my issue. If not, and I have misconstrued, then sincere apologies again. I do appreciate here any comments, either pro or politely against my case. However it must be said, I have been continually baffled as to why you kept insisting I was playing with the bonus - despite amply demonstrating I wasn't, and now calling me a habitual bonus player out of the blue & despite your previous apology regarding bonus play...I am finding all this very odd. I'm down a 5-figure sum lifetime at casinos - so if I am a habitual bonus player - I am not a very succesful one.

The sad thing is one of the main reasons I went to this casino, was figured that electronics, air travel, customer service - you name it - they are all done a lot, lot better by Far Eastern countries, and wanted to see if the same applied to online Casinos. I'll never be going back ever to dip my toes in, after this, even though it turns out to be Filipino-based, and Cypriot-owned.

Sorry - to answer your question - no I have never had this problem before.Ever. Not a single previous instance of frozen or closed account, or funds confiscated. I wouldn't dare post here, which I know can be a bit of a lion's den - were my hands not clean, as it were.

 

[sripal32]

<Another point which only I seemed to touch on - is that most casino's do not ban games on the basis of %return - but on the risk to the player's funds. ie. Roulette only pays about 97%, no matter how you pile the chips - but is banned absolutely everywhere.>

Most casino's ban Roulette because their bonus systems cannot exclude even bets (red/black) from the wagering requirement calculations.

 

[Casinomeister]

Like I mentioned on Friday, I'm in direct contact with the operator and I will have more information later.

As a general posting rule, when lodging complaints via PAB or whatever, it's best to wait until I have made contact with the operator and received a detailed response before starting a public debate on exactly what happened.

As for Pontoon being a form of Blackjack, it is totally clear that it is. According to Hoyle's Encyclopedia of Card Games, "Pontoon" is a nickname for Twenty-One. Twenty-One is synonymous with Blackjack. Hoyle, by the way, is the definitive rule book on card games.

 

[uungy]

As for Pontoon being a form of Blackjack, it it totally clear that it is. According to Hoyle's Encyclopedia of Card Games, "Pontoon" is a nickname for Twenty-One. Twenty-One is synonymous with Blackjack. Hoyle, by the way, is the definitive rule book on card games.

I think I will differ on thatas I have said earlier, since they are both "21 Games" however pontoon is not Blackjack. In Blackjack an ace and a Ten is a "Blackjack" (hence the name) in Pontoon, its called "Pontoon (hence the name). If a casino banned "21 Games" that would include Pontoon. If you ban Blackjack, that wouldn't include Pontoon.

Its similar to if a casino banned "American Roulette", that wouldn't include all roulette's.

 

[Casinomeister]

Just checking out a cached version of the page (I'm surprised no one has done this earlier) - from February 16th:
Outdated URL (Invalid)

The promotion does not apply to Roulette, Baccarat, Craps, SicBo, Blackjack, Video Poker play and Pontoon.

So it's clear that Pontoon is disallowed.

And Pontoon is a form a Blackjack. When a casino states "all forms of Blackjack" Pontoon should be considered one of these games.

When in doubt, just ask a casino's customer support whether or not a certain game is allowed.