On Probation The Virtual Casino Group and Ace Revenue

[chayton]

I'M NOT EVEN OUT OF THE MONTH OF NOVEMBER YET!!!! SOMETIMES YOU GOTTA SEARCH OUTSIDE OF CM TO FIND TRUE ROUGENESS!

Should let all of those people know to come to casinomeister and do a PAB!

 

[bsilva028]

After re-reading what I've written, and what greedygirl has explained here, I don't see any defending or sugarcoating. I've explained a process and made observations - and the same thing with Debbee.

I've also put this into your hands. In six months time, you'll be voting on this I hope.

yes, i will vote, and the vote will be easy, rogue both, they do not deserve even a single chance.

 

[Googobucs]

First, I want to explain the actual business models involved. Ace is more of a traditional casino group. There are not the sort of massive bonuses being offered at Ace as with Virtual, instead favoring more standard bonuses and wagering requirements. Conversely, the Virtual brands offer outlandish bonuses and much broader wagering requirements. While some players may take issue with Virtual’s bonus approach, it’s a proven fact that this is a very successful business model.

selling cigarettes to children is a successful business model.
When you offer 400% bonuses with no WR and no max cashout then follow that with T & C saying we will confiscate your winnings for Bonus abuse. That is predatory, Rogue and Unethical.

 

[Pocketdiggers77]

Exactly who benefits from bringing Virtual out of the rogue pit, besides Virtual? Not the Casinomeister regulars, not the accredited RTG casinos at CM (the contrary) , and not the reputation of Casinomeister. $omeone or $omething is driving this soon to be train wreck with their own best interest in mind. I don't get it, did the Meister just wake up one morning and say " I guess Virtual isn't that bad, lets take them out of the rogue pit today and see what happens." Doubtful. Maybe this is an early April Fools joke?

 

[dionysus]

Exactly who benefits from bringing Virtual out of the rogue pit, besides Virtual? Not the Casinomeister regulars, not the accredited RTG casinos at CM (the contrary) , and not the reputation of Casinomeister. $omeone or $omething is driving this soon to be train wreck with their own best interest in mind. I don't get it, did the Meister just wake up one morning and say " I guess Virtual isn't that bad, lets take them out of the rogue pit today and see what happens." Doubtful. Maybe this is an early April Fools joke?

No, he said, people appear to be trying to make a concerned effort - let's see what they do in (an amended) 6 months.
He isn't saying go play there, he's saying, maybe out of rogue and into not recommended

>not recommended<
that isn't a ringing endorsement

he's made it clear there's no plans for BBF or accreditation.

As for the casino getting the attention they wanted, well, these 100-plus posts aren't gaining them support.
The process is fair - not only does every member get to post their opinions, they EVEN GET A VOTE

 

[BMWSTACK]

While some players may take issue with Virtual’s bonus approach, it’s a proven fact that this is a very successful business model.


There is no basis of truth in this, whatsoever. The truth of the matter is that the Virtual brands are the top producers with RTG and a retention rate which most casinos would kill for. Whether anyone here likes it or not, the fact is that these brands are as successful as it gets.

I’m not acting as a representative of these companies, I’m only trying to explain certain things where I’ve been involved.
Since Bryan announced pulling Ace and Virtual out of rogue and into probation, I’ve been having discussions with the company’s management to begin addressing some of the issues brought up in this thread…

Regarding the lengthy hold-times on withdrawals, Virtual and Ace have agreed that where there are no bonuses involved or the bonus amount is 100% or less, the hold time on these withdrawals will not exceed 48 hours (provided all documents are in order). This will become effective Monday, November 11, 2013.

For withdrawals by players making withdrawals following receiving a bonus of more than 100%:

Those players who’ve already had at least one previously successful withdrawal, the wait time for approval will be reduced from 14 days to 10 days. This will be effective, December 1, 2013.

There will be no change in the hold time for those players who will be making their first withdrawal when a bonus of more than 100% has been applied.



Telephone promotions: Management has agreed that only ONE call will be issued per week per player. This means that if a player has accounts across multiple casinos and has opted into accepting calls, the player will not receive calls relating to each casino they have accounts with. Only one call will be made. Further, should the player wish to opt out of telephone promotions, they may do so by contacting the casino.

Yes its a successful business model because of their inability to fund people on a timely manner. They allow 2 weeks to blow back money which = awesome profit. How the heck can we call a rogue operation a successful business model, this is truly scary.

Top Producer for RTG again because their profit percentages are huge. Saying their retention rate is high is one thing, showing the numbers and proof is another. I will not for a second believe that they retain players better than a Jackpot Capital or Club World. I don't think anyone here doubts that they are "as successful as it gets" because of the crooked way they handle things, and yes most don't like the fact that they continue to make profit of off their ridiculous process.

I understand you are not a representative of the company, but you are certainly representing them. This is by far the greatest PR campaign for these groups I have seen on anywhere in recent times, and yes this includes the forums that love to promote rogues.

So the terms really haven't changed much. Yes if you have withdrew before and take 100% OR Less it gets approved in 48hrs, then you have your 7-10 day processing. Changing terms from 14 to 10 days really is insignificant when its 10 business days, then another 10 for processing. Still 30days to get money. Other than that new players people taking Higher bonuses still have to wait 30days +. Never thought I would see the day that your withdrawal time is based upon your bonus.

Telephone promotions--- They agree to call ONLY once a week, if they are doing things right they shouldn't have to bother you with phone calls, who wants to get a call from someone working you for a deposit. I normally associate calls with rogues.

 

[varverooo]

Virtual group on probation? This is tough stuff. I find this kind of funny, but i dont believe, not for a second, that they will change to the better. Maybe they will for some time, but in the long run? NO WAY. Seems to me they are trying to recruit new players by making empty promises.

 

[rockycatt]

if this were a novel i'd say the founder of the group got realy bad news from his doctor and wants to ready his business for transfer to his children

 

[albrco123]

If nothing else this has created an interesting & popular threead.

JMHO 2 points that stood out to me.

Payout times should never be linked to whether or not a Bonus was used and the size of the Bonus, i have never heard this from any Casino before, i can understand a slightly longer period fro new depositors but surely a couple of extra days is sufficient other than that all players should be treated equally

I would like to see the evidence to back up the claims of being RTG top producer, is there a list produced by RTG that ranks Casino's? maybe a rep from RTG or even CWG/JC could chime in on this, I for one would like toknow how each Casino ranks in relation to others using the same software though i highly doubt this info would ever be allowed to become public.

I would like to add i have never had a problem at either of these group, just following the thread with interest.

Al

 

[bigsmile]

I really hate to sound like an idiot or a negative person ... but What THE heck? We all complain about Slots Jungle and Win palace only paying $500 per week or bi weekly. That is utopia compared to this group right? 30 days to approve. 30 days to pay. Only partial payments come in. (i.e. if you request a $2000 cashout then they may only send you $500 PER MONTH).
In their cashier it says approved but it never hits your account and you have to go back and ask them about it.. then argue... then they put it through the same 30 day process again... it is horrific. I just cant believe that this could be allowed OUT of rogueville.

This reeks of something that has transpired for a reason that is NOT in the player's best interest at all. I really, really hope that they somehow have changed all of these practices and if they have then AWESOME! but i'm scared for anyone who tries them at this point.

 

[bowlingbob]

Exactly who benefits from bringing Virtual out of the rogue pit, besides Virtual? Not the Casinomeister regulars, not the accredited RTG casinos at CM (the contrary) , and not the reputation of Casinomeister. $omeone or $omething is driving this soon to be train wreck with their own best interest in mind. I don't get it, did the Meister just wake up one morning and say " I guess Virtual isn't that bad, lets take them out of the rogue pit today and see what happens." Doubtful. Maybe this is an early April Fools joke?

This is a pretty spot on analysis. Someone is getting paid off.

 

[dionysus]

that's twice I've seen where it's insinuated as though there's 2 guys in back alleys exchanging briefcases

one, Bryan has been pretty adamantly clear, he's giving them a shot, nothing more.

two, if there WERE $ being used for sponsorship or promoting, they arent getting their moneys worth, and CM IS a business, not a charity. He doesn't just work for players' benefits, but casino's as well; he just leans heavily on the players' side while being reasonable

 

[mattsgame]

I have tried to stay out of this thread, but I can no longer not voice my opinion.

It's been a very long day and while I'd like to reply to much of what's been brought up, sleep is what's foremost on my agenda. Before I hit the sheets, there are just a couple quick bits, for now...

As I mentioned previously in my long recitation, the current terms are something that need to be addressed thoroughly and immediately. Management has already agreed that anything requiring amending, will be dealt with swiftly.

They have had a decade to do this

There will be reps here from both Virtual and Ace. Further, I will also be helping out during this initial period of time, as we've all known there would be a high-volume of posts requiring responses. I would expect Bryan and Max to be 'middle men' as little or as much as they would with any other situation.

Had reps here before, nothing much changed

In the morning, I'll be responding to the bulk of the concerns being discussed.

In the meantime, I'd like to reiterate that there has been NO endorsement made by Bryan, Max or the Casinomeister website, itself. Moving these two companies into Probation is a baby step, much like the baby steps that we've been taking with Virtual and Ace over the past four years. It was brought up that perhaps we should have waited longer for a lengthier track record. How long would be long enough? I'm not being funny or facetious with that question. The truth is that this has been a long, hard road. Is there still room for improvement? Of course there is and without having these public discussions, it's difficult to identify and/or assess these issues. At the same time, rushing to a harsh judgement without being objective is counter-productive for everyone.

Baby steps for 4 years? Yet nothing seems to have changed. On your question of how long would be long enough? Well considering this group has had a good decade of stuffing players over and over and over I would assume it would take just as long to get anyone to see them in a different light

What I do know is what I've witnessed over these past four years: An absolute willingness and pro-active movement by management to take whatever reasonable steps necessary to operate responsibly.

Again, 4 years? Nothing much has changed

And now I must get some beauty sleep (no jokes about hibernation, dammit!).

If the current terms need to be addressed immediately then why hasn't it been done? You are saying that these "baby steps" have been taking place for 4 years. So if for 4 years they have been trying to get back in everyone's good graces why have these terms not been changed in four years. Working on this for 4 years without changing terms? They sound like a perfect candidate for the US presidency. Its nothing but a PR mission at this point.

I have seen the standard complaints over the past 4 years at various forums. Also the terms of 7-10days for APPROVAL allows a huge opportunity to blow the money back, hence less people having to actually go through the withdrawal process.

Greedy, you are well respected, and obviously have a lot of passion for this. I just don't understand how your putting your reputation on the line over "promises" to change things. I would have expected you to be making these posts when the changes were actually made.




My exact point. I would have taken this news better, and I believe others would have also if new terms were announced.

This is pretty much what I wanted to also add, you took the words right out of my mouth, the thing is it's not just the terms that have not changed.

What about the most famous case at casinomeister and the Vrtual Group. I'm sure some of you remember "Mark" I think it was who opened an account here on behalf of the Virtual group to sort out any outstanding issues. We then remember "acepedro" I think his name was. The Virtual group owed him OVER $100K in winnings, Acepedro had all the screenshots and all the proof he needed to show that this casino DID indeed kowe him this money. He tried for years and years to get even a portion of this money with no luck. I recall Mark taking on his case buy I'm not even sure if Acepedro saw any of that money.
After all of this Bryan became a little upset that Mark was working through his website to try and resolve these issues thorugh his website ( which I can understand as they were badly rouged.

Also, I'm sure Bryan can tell you of the horror stories from that place. They even tried to invite Bryan over that way- and this wasn't for business or anything- they wanted to bury him ( no joke)

Guy's do a search on here for the virtual group and you will see some horror stories. One player who went to the Virtual offices to be followed home by security guards and beat up. Another one was the past manager who liked to rule his staff with an iron fist and a hand gun. If he got upset he would shoot the computer next to you or something to that affect. This outfit acted like a Mafia type organisation and I personally don't think ALL that much may have changed.

I mean only two complaints over a year isn't exactly much to go on- I mean how many customers do they even have nowdays, I bet no where near as much as other casino's. Personally anyone who has been in the online gaming scene for the last 10 years knows exactly what this group is about and we would NEVER touch them again.

This is just plain scary and absolute bullying tactics and if true with no management changes, I don't see why Bryan would even think about it.

I've read a lot of the comments here and it's fair to say this has become a very evocative subject!

I would like the membership to understand that I feel slightly caught between a rock and a hard place here in that I want operators to realize that if they make concerted and successful efforts to clean up their act over an extended period, that there is a route out of "roguedom". To re-iterate once again this is not accreditation or recommendation at all. Simply a switch from "Rogue" status to "With reservations", accompanied as usual by the reasons.

My philosophy here is that a casino who is aware of it's responsibilities and is making that effort is far better for the player as a whole. In fact, I think it is very important to try and persuade a bad casino that there are benefits to reform rather than simply rogue them and ignore them.

Whilst I agree with you, we are not dealing with a casino that may have made a few mistakes or stuffed up for a short term. This group has been knowingly doing what they have been doing for years and have had that many chances to change it's not even funny any more.

Clearly in this instance, we are dealing with a company that really do evoke a lot of emotion and it is absolutely 100% understandable that many will be skeptical of their ability to reform. I've therefore decided that a reasonable compromise would be to extend the probationary period from my initial and perhaps somewhat ambitious 30 days to 6 months and, at the end of that, ask the members here to vote on the issue: fully registered members and up.

Players have long term memories, I am sorry but I don't think making the probation period longer will change much, especially if players here are to vote.

Would you please knock off this crap? Thank you.

We've been accepting PABs for the Virtual group for nearly two years. This was made clear here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/static/newsletter/2012/february2012/7feb2012_ICE_LAC.php



And I'm sure I've mentioned this since then.

Well, I doubt you would get many PAB's from most seasonal players from here, they are not sillies. In saying that because you have not received many PAB's is not a true reflection of how bad they still are, you do not have to look far to find complaint after complaint about this group.

From reading their past exploits, they seem to keep it together for 6 months or so, then the other shoe drops and it's back to the business of stiffing players again. It's hard, if not impossible, to discard the facts of endless breached promises. But if the CM site has a policy of given everyone multiple chances to redeem themselves from the pit, imo these two cases should be placed on a 12 month good behaviour bond, with terms clearly stating what is acceptable, where both groups sign off on it.

While there may not have been many, if any PAB's submitted on these groups here for ages, those stats, will present this data because members here know about their past history. Where this becomes a contentious issue is, not every gambler online is a member of the CM forum. Not withstanding the fact both groups seem challenged with paying their winnings within an industry accepted time frame.

Again reverting back to my suggestion these groups be placed on a 12 month good behaviour bond. The primary term is to get their collective sh*t together and pay winnings without hoop jumping, delays, excuses or any other time wasting games which encroaches on players being paid. If these groups are serious about being hoisted from the pit of rogues, then they'll also be committed to adhering to a set of ethical operational ground rules too!

This is what concerns me most, we have seen them put the shoe on the other foot for a short term, get the publicity they want, get new players in the door and then revert back. 12 months is even to short IMPO.

I’m going to do my best to respond to as many of the general concerns that have been posted here. I’m sure I’ll miss some tidbits, but knowing all you folks, I’m sure you’ll let me know what it is I’m missing.

First, I want to explain the actual business models involved. Ace is more of a traditional casino group. There are not the sort of massive bonuses being offered at Ace as with Virtual, instead favoring more standard bonuses and wagering requirements. Conversely, the Virtual brands offer outlandish bonuses and much broader wagering requirements. While some players may take issue with Virtual’s bonus approach, it’s a proven fact that this is a very successful business model.

Oh please, why is this? Why doesn't every other casino out there offer the same insane bonuses if it is so successful? It maybe a successful business model to line the pockets of the company.

There is no basis of truth in this, whatsoever. The truth of the matter is that the Virtual brands are the top producers with RTG and a retention rate which most casinos would kill for. Whether anyone here likes it or not, the fact is that these brands are as successful as it gets.

Of course they are, they spam 24/7 either by email or by phone, offer ridiculous bonuses that most greedy players cannot refuse and then hold onto the money.

It’s been mentioned several times that there have been only a handful of PAB’s because CM members don’t play at these casinos. Are you SURE about this? Do you really want to put your money on this? I can say with absolute certainty there are MANY CM members who DO play at these casinos—they just don’t admit to it publicly. As it is, there ARE a few members who’ve ‘outed’ themselves in this thread. There are far more that will stay quiet in fear of losing their CM cred.

Where do I start here. I don't care if CM members play at these casinos, that is there prerogative, they run into trouble then they only have themselves to blame not sure how they would lose their CM cred , its also nice to know our information on here is being shared about

As I mentioned before, PAB's are not the only indicator of how bad this group is still going, you do not have to look far to find complaint after complaint still.

It was asked why I would get involved in this situation. Again, at the time I was approached, I did not for one moment believe that these companies were sincere. At the same time, I knew there were many players who were not treated fairly in the past and I wanted to see these players paid. Further, I also realized that whether I was involved or not, these casinos would continue to operate, and would do so, successfully. It was important to me to see that the players hurt by these brands in the past have their issues resolved. Equally important was to see that these brands improve their conduct, moving forward. Surprisingly, it turned out that management was indeed sincere in their desire to improve, which resulted in millions of dollars being paid to players who never dreamt they’d see the monies due to them.

It has also been asked why these companies wanted to change their ways. Truthfully, they were weary of being the industry pariah. There has never been a discussion of becoming more profitable in all this time—it’s always been about how management could fix things and move forward.

Now with some explanations out of the way, I’ve been working with management to begin moving forward with some of your concerns. I’m not acting as a representative of these companies, I’m only trying to explain certain things where I’ve been involved. When it comes to withdrawals and processing, it is not my place to discuss the internal machinations in place. I do understand their reasoning behind the timelines relating to withdrawals and I WILL say it really has nothing to do with the assumptions and assertions made here (at CM), pointing to potential reversals of these withdrawals. Additionally, I understand why it is going to be difficult for Ace and Virtual to make immediate, drastic changes to make things more expeditious.

Since Bryan announced pulling Ace and Virtual out of rogue and into probation, I’ve been having discussions with the company’s management to begin addressing some of the issues brought up in this thread…

Regarding the lengthy hold-times on withdrawals, Virtual and Ace have agreed that where there are no bonuses involved or the bonus amount is 100% or less, the hold time on these withdrawals will not exceed 48 hours (provided all documents are in order). This will become effective Monday, November 11, 2013.

For withdrawals by players making withdrawals following receiving a bonus of more than 100%:

Those players who’ve already had at least one previously successful withdrawal, the wait time for approval will be reduced from 14 days to 10 days. This will be effective, December 1, 2013.

There will be no change in the hold time for those players who will be making their first withdrawal when a bonus of more than 100% has been applied.

Management has asked me to be very clear that they will be continuing to review their processes in place to find ways to shorten these hold times.

How is this any better? 10 days regardless of a 100% bonus or not is just ridiculous. I find it funny that they won't change the hold time for bonuses more than 100%, maybe don't offer stupid 400%-1000% bonuses.

Telephone promotions: Management has agreed that only ONE call will be issued per week per player. This means that if a player has accounts across multiple casinos and has opted into accepting calls, the player will not receive calls relating to each casino they have accounts with. Only one call will be made. Further, should the player wish to opt out of telephone promotions, they may do so by contacting the casino.

They should be doing NO telephone calls at all for promotions, for identification purposes yer maybe 1 call and that's it.

Email promotions and SPAM: The casinos are currently and will continue to be compliant with opting any player out of receiving promotional emails. Casino management has committed to put pressure on affiliates to unsubscribe any player who has opted out of mailings via the casino(s).

We will see, most people do not even opt in or have accounts with this group that receive constant SPAM emails direct from the company, not affiliates. Where are they gathering this info from?

I realize there are miles more to go, but as I mentioned in my last post, it’s been baby steps all along. These new agreed changes are more baby steps--but these are baby steps forward and over time, they do add up. Please remember, Virtual has been around pretty much since the beginning of online gaming. They spent many years making mistakes. Unraveling things and having the confidence to make drastic changes is not such a simple task when you’ve become accustomed to the security of doing things a certain way. What is important is their willingness to do so and taking these baby steps.

Obviously you do not want to make quick and drastic decision, but some of these baby steps are just to small, looking at those withdrawal hold times, it's like they want their cake and to eat it too with a side of coffee and cream

It’s because of the postings made here that we’re able to identify and define many of the issues—over the coming days, weeks and months, Virtual and Ace have committed to continue to address these issues and hopefully more and more steps (of increasing size!) will be taken.

Lastly, I’m in full support of Bryan’s decision to extend the probationary period to six months—I believe this is absolutely right in this situation. Ace and Virtual are in full support of this, as well.

Me too, but since he has made it a vote by the members here, I do not think it will change much.

What Bryan stated is spot on:

This is a pretty spot on analysis. Someone is getting paid off.

I am sorry but this is just BS.


I just want to make it clear, I am not having a go at anyone, I know that everyone posting in here has been around for a very long time and only has the best interests for us all, it is just a lot to swallow from a company that has been so bad for so long.

 

[dunover]

Wow. So if you have already experienced the excruciatingly slow w/d process ONCE then from 1/12/13 you will get 4 days shaved from the processing time. Now surely this takes some physical organization to segregate the 10/14 day pending periods for each punter. So you go from 'very slow' to 'slow'. Then we factor in bonus players being paid slower. I have heard of little so ludicrous.
The above smacks of a group with little or no financial underpinning, whereby winnings are paid as and when deposits cover them hence the lengthy pending times. Cash-only players are prioritized. This alone would make me run a mile. We have seen with iNetBet and CW etc. that N.American-facing sites can pay out in a timely fashion, even in tune with accredited speeds.
Now I don't expect a group with such a questionable history to transform overnight, and indeed agree with the 6-month period suggested. But 14 days to 10 days cannot be in any way construed as positive. It's akin to the mugger on the street corner holding you at knifepoint and saying "Don't worry, unlike last time I'm only taking your wallet, you can keep your watch".

The group are clearly out of touch with modern and decent operations, and consider a slight tweak in favour of players a major step on their enlightened path, whereas it doesn't even bring them close to other 'safe' but non-accredited operations.

"Please remember, Virtual has been around pretty much since the beginning of online gaming. They spent many years making mistakes. Unraveling things and having the confidence to make drastic changes is not such a simple task when you’ve become accustomed to the security of doing things a certain way. What is important is their willingness to do so and taking these baby steps.................It’s because of the postings made here that we’re able to identify and define many of the issues—over the coming days, weeks and months, Virtual and Ace have committed to continue to address these issues and hopefully more and more steps (of increasing size!) will be taken."

I have to take issue with this. Given the longevity of their operation, and seeing new competitors emerge with comparatively little live-site experience and become accredited and STAY accredited in 2 months (like Guts etc.) why has it taken Virtual 15 years to learn some of the same standards? Who the hell runs the show so badly and suddenly realizes they've been 'making mistakes' after such a long time? It's not as if they've suddenly 'found' CM and become aware of what CM and more importantly, players deem worthy of a good casino group.

I tell you my opinion. I believe they are genuinely trying to improve, but only because they have little choice. With the saturation of the online gaming market, their 'golden goose' of player ignorance is well and truly cooked and their take is dwindling as a result, as customers have so many better and more reliable choices. Therefore it's more a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

IMO not the best motive for them to instil confidence in us.

 

[KasinoKing]

The above smacks of a group with little or no financial underpinning, whereby winnings are paid as and when deposits cover them hence the lengthy pending times.

I honestly can not understand this line of thought.
The slow-pay is a deliberate policy to give players as much time as possible to get fed-up waiting, reverse and play.
I'm sure these groups have huge stacks of cash - they just want to hold on to as much as possible for as long as possible.

KK

 

[dunover]

I honestly can not understand this line of thought.
The slow-pay is a deliberate policy to give players as much time as possible to get fed-up waiting, reverse and play.
I'm sure these groups have huge stacks of cash - they just want to hold on to as much as possible for as long as possible.

KK

How can you know that for sure? Do they publish accounts like a proper Ltd. Company?
These operations can and are often run like personal fiefdoms by their owners. Like if you work for a takeaway shop and the owner comes downstairs every couple of hours and takes most of the cash from the till never to be seen again, just leaving you a working float.

And 14 days plus is far longer than necessary to tempt the weaker-willed player from reversing. We know that from here, the stories of just 2 days being enough.

 

[maphesto]

The slow-pay is a deliberate policy to give players as much time as possible to get fed-up waiting, reverse and play.

This explains the time before the withdrawal is processed, it doesn't explain the weeks after the withdrawal is approved.

 

[bsilva028]

I’m going to do my best to respond to as many of the general concerns that have been posted here. I’m sure I’ll miss some tidbits, but knowing all you folks, I’m sure you’ll let me know what it is I’m missing.

First, I want to explain the actual business models involved. Ace is more of a traditional casino group. There are not the sort of massive bonuses being offered at Ace as with Virtual, instead favoring more standard bonuses and wagering requirements. Conversely, the Virtual brands offer outlandish bonuses and much broader wagering requirements. While some players may take issue with Virtual’s bonus approach, it’s a proven fact that this is a very successful business model.



There is no basis of truth in this, whatsoever. The truth of the matter is that the Virtual brands are the top producers with RTG and a retention rate which most casinos would kill for. Whether anyone here likes it or not, the fact is that these brands are as successful as it gets.

It’s been mentioned several times that there have been only a handful of PAB’s because CM members don’t play at these casinos. Are you SURE about this? Do you really want to put your money on this? I can say with absolute certainty there are MANY CM members who DO play at these casinos—they just don’t admit to it publicly. As it is, there ARE a few members who’ve ‘outed’ themselves in this thread. There are far more that will stay quiet in fear of losing their CM cred.

It was asked why I would get involved in this situation. Again, at the time I was approached, I did not for one moment believe that these companies were sincere. At the same time, I knew there were many players who were not treated fairly in the past and I wanted to see these players paid. Further, I also realized that whether I was involved or not, these casinos would continue to operate, and would do so, successfully. It was important to me to see that the players hurt by these brands in the past have their issues resolved. Equally important was to see that these brands improve their conduct, moving forward. Surprisingly, it turned out that management was indeed sincere in their desire to improve, which resulted in millions of dollars being paid to players who never dreamt they’d see the monies due to them.

It has also been asked why these companies wanted to change their ways. Truthfully, they were weary of being the industry pariah. There has never been a discussion of becoming more profitable in all this time—it’s always been about how management could fix things and move forward.

Now with some explanations out of the way, I’ve been working with management to begin moving forward with some of your concerns. I’m not acting as a representative of these companies, I’m only trying to explain certain things where I’ve been involved. When it comes to withdrawals and processing, it is not my place to discuss the internal machinations in place. I do understand their reasoning behind the timelines relating to withdrawals and I WILL say it really has nothing to do with the assumptions and assertions made here (at CM), pointing to potential reversals of these withdrawals. Additionally, I understand why it is going to be difficult for Ace and Virtual to make immediate, drastic changes to make things more expeditious.

Since Bryan announced pulling Ace and Virtual out of rogue and into probation, I’ve been having discussions with the company’s management to begin addressing some of the issues brought up in this thread…

Regarding the lengthy hold-times on withdrawals, Virtual and Ace have agreed that where there are no bonuses involved or the bonus amount is 100% or less, the hold time on these withdrawals will not exceed 48 hours (provided all documents are in order). This will become effective Monday, November 11, 2013.

For withdrawals by players making withdrawals following receiving a bonus of more than 100%:

Those players who’ve already had at least one previously successful withdrawal, the wait time for approval will be reduced from 14 days to 10 days. This will be effective, December 1, 2013.

There will be no change in the hold time for those players who will be making their first withdrawal when a bonus of more than 100% has been applied.

Management has asked me to be very clear that they will be continuing to review their processes in place to find ways to shorten these hold times.

Telephone promotions: Management has agreed that only ONE call will be issued per week per player. This means that if a player has accounts across multiple casinos and has opted into accepting calls, the player will not receive calls relating to each casino they have accounts with. Only one call will be made. Further, should the player wish to opt out of telephone promotions, they may do so by contacting the casino.

Email promotions and SPAM: The casinos are currently and will continue to be compliant with opting any player out of receiving promotional emails. Casino management has committed to put pressure on affiliates to unsubscribe any player who has opted out of mailings via the casino(s).

I realize there are miles more to go, but as I mentioned in my last post, it’s been baby steps all along. These new agreed changes are more baby steps--but these are baby steps forward and over time, they do add up. Please remember, Virtual has been around pretty much since the beginning of online gaming. They spent many years making mistakes. Unraveling things and having the confidence to make drastic changes is not such a simple task when you’ve become accustomed to the security of doing things a certain way. What is important is their willingness to do so and taking these baby steps.

It’s because of the postings made here that we’re able to identify and define many of the issues—over the coming days, weeks and months, Virtual and Ace have committed to continue to address these issues and hopefully more and more steps (of increasing size!) will be taken.

Lastly, I’m in full support of Bryan’s decision to extend the probationary period to six months—I believe this is absolutely right in this situation. Ace and Virtual are in full support of this, as well.

What Bryan stated is spot on:

i continue without see any answer related to:
ace revenue and virtual: proud to offer prompt payouts 24 days? what this has of prompt????
ace revenue: share player´s infor in data base: in virtual mentions in the group, in ace revenue no.
ace revenue and virtual: if player does not log in by 6 consecutive months, the balance will stay to the casino (not a part of the money but ALL THE MONEY)
ace and virtual: license jurisdiction: costa rica, so its not a gambling license but a simple comercial license, even curacao is better than costa rica and its not like malta or kanwake or others....
ace and virtual: players can not redeem multiple free chips, so why you send that multiple free chips to players if they can not be redeemed? also, the software allows you to block a player from redeem it why you do not apply that?

 

[chuchu59]

How can you know that for sure? Do they publish accounts like a proper Ltd. Company?
These operations can and are often run like personal fiefdoms by their owners. Like if you work for a takeaway shop and the owner comes downstairs every couple of hours and takes most of the cash from the till never to be seen again, just leaving you a working float.

And 14 days plus is far longer than necessary to tempt the weaker-willed player from reversing. We know that from here, the stories of just 2 days being enough.

Though its pure speculation Marty Davis did pay off many players in 2010 and possibly early 2011. These amounts were not trivial I understand which I believe Slots Jungle would struggle to pay. The line of reasoning is simple. They ripped off thousands of players in the past, rarely paying players that cashed out 4-figure sums or more. The accumulation of these amounts enabled them to be flush with cash. IMO they can easily pay several players 100k each though they have specialists who think of innovative excuses not to pay out.

 

[bigsmile]

Should mention that they are known to pay you however they want also. You may use neteller and request a cashout via neteller but they send you a check... but in the cashier section it will say neteller approved and you have no record of it.. makes it horribly confusing also...OR, you may use moneybookers and ask for payment that way and they try to send you a wire or back to neteller. Its just that they take such liberty with the player's money. Its like amazing when/if you do get paid and it will take months and even years if you win anything even slightly substantial. Don't get lucky and hit a jackpot.. your grandchildren will still be trying to collect.

 

[bigjohn]

Question for Greedgirl

Matt brought up a somewhat disturbing point. How is it that you are certain that many CM members play at these casinos?

Seeing how you have stated that you do not work for them I would be interested to know how you came upon this conclusion.

Edited to add;

A day after this thread opened I got my first spam e-mail from cool cat in over a year. Coincidence?

 

[MisterBJ]

Matt brought up a somewhat disturbing point. How is it that you are certain that many CM members play at these casinos?

Seeing how you have stated that you do not work for them I would be interested to know how you came upon this conclusion.

Edited to add;

A day after this thread opened I got my first spam e-mail from cool cat in over a year. Coincidence?

If some person or persons aren't carefully this thread my open up a can of worms...

 

[chayton]

A day after this thread opened I got my first spam e-mail from cool cat in over a year. Coincidence?

Funny, I noticed the same thing - I've definitely had a rampup of spam too. I clean my spam folder several times a day and my first cleanout today: out of 9 mails, 3 were from different casinos in this group - 2 mails are directly from the casinos, the other one probably from an affiliate.

 

[MisterBJ]

Though its pure speculation Marty Davis did pay off many players in 2010 and possibly early 2011. These amounts were not trivial I understand which I believe Slots Jungle would struggle to pay. The line of reasoning is simple. They ripped off thousands of players in the past, rarely paying players that cashed out 4-figure sums or more. The accumulation of these amounts enabled them to be flush with cash. IMO they can easily pay several players 100k each though they have specialists who think of innovative excuses not to pay out.

What I don't understand. If Ace and Virtual are the TOP RTG casinos and way ahead of its class. Why are they so damn determine to be listed at CM? Then there are some who is talking about testing them out. OMG!!! I really can't believe anyone would give this group any support. I mean really this has to be a sad day for this site. We are busy arguing over their status as being on probation. While the headlight topic reads Ace and Virtual On Probation.

I think greedygirl names fits her. GREED and CRAFTY, IMHO there is more to this then just probation. Luckily for those outside the USA. You don't have to be bothered with these RTG casinos. RTG is truly the most profitable casino software on the net. AND IT SHOWS!

 

[Tirilej]

What I don't understand. If Ace and Virtual are the TOP RTG casinos and way ahead of its class. Why are they so damn determine to be listed at CM? Then there are some who is talking about testing them out. OMG!!! I really can't believe anyone would give this group any support. I mean really this has to be a sad day for this site. We are busy arguing over their status as being on probation. While the headlight topic reads Ace and Virtual On Probation.

I think greedygirl names fits her. GREED and CRAFTY, IMHO there is more to this then just probation. Luckily for those outside the USA. You don't have to be bothered with these RTG casinos. RTG is truly the most profitable casino software on the net. AND IT SHOWS!

Are you trying to get banned from here?
There is no need whatsoever to insult another member.

I just can't understand all hate I read in this thread, for what purpose?
I believe in forgiveness but that's me.