Bonus Complaint Paradise Win Casino voided 11.000 € (hit 5 Satter on DOA for 9k!!!)

[casinokoenig]

Hello all !

Now i ve seen it all - this is simply unbelievable:

I made several deposits at Paradise win (in total over 1000 €) and never won anything untill this:
I deposited 125€ and received 125 € Bonus - i went to read the Bonus Terms and searched for games that might not be allowed and also read that the maximum bet allowed was 5 €.
Then i opended several slot games and got very lucky at some of them winning almost 2700 € at this point i had around 1k left to wager and opened Dead or Alive and then suddenly hit 5 Scatters for 9000€ at a 3.6 € bet (what a hit!!).

I finished the wagering requirements and kept playing afterwards untill my balance showed around 11000€.
I was obv. super excited about this win and couldnt really believe this all was happening - i couldnt manage to get a screen shot from the 5 Scatters so i emailed support asking if there was a game history available and on the next day they answered me this :

Hello Chris,

We have checked your betting history and noticed that you had multiple games opened at the same time.

According to ParadiseWin Casino Terms & Conditions, point 7.17 This is strictly forbidden.
"7.17 Player is allowed to have only one game open at one time. Should the player have more the one game open at once, all winnings will be removed from the account."

Full version of Terms&Conditions you can find my pressing on the link:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Your winnings will be removed from your account.
However your deposit of 125 EUR will be returned to your players account.
As an extra we will also credit your 100% Reload bonus back to your account in full amount.
Please make sure you follow all campaign rules to avoid such situation in the future.

Please do not hesitate to contact our support team in case of any further questions.

Sincerely,
ParadiseWin Support



I mean sorry but now i ve really seen it all and i DO read the Terms and Conditions alltough i would have never expected the existence of a rule like this and therefore didnt see it - i try to write this here as calm as possible but in my opinion this is almost theft - sorry but there is ZERO reason to forbid someone to play more than one slot machine at a time -
Imagine you sitting in a Casino feeding two slot machines and suddenly someone says " Sir - your winnings will be voided because you are playing more than one slot at a time - thats a competely unreal situation.

I dont wanna write any longer since i have way to much anger i replied to the email that since i did play more than one slot machine everytime i deposited/played - if they really enforce this rule and void 11000€ because of this i at least demand not only my last deposit but ALL my deposits back (more than 1000€)

The casino hasnt responded yet (i v sent my reply two days ago)

Will go out and drink now have a nice weekend everyone

 

[KasinoKing]

Does the casino have the facility for you to play multiple games, like RedBet does, for example?
Or did you open multiple windows yourself and log-in several times so you could play like this?

If the latter, then I'm afraid you are out of luck and the casino is right.
If the former - Pitch A Bitch!

Never even heard of this casino before. Just how many NetEnt based casinos ARE there on the net today???

KK

 

[casinokoenig]

Does the casino have the facility for you to play multiple games, like RedBet does, for example?
Or did you open multiple windows yourself and log-in several times so you could play like this?

KK

i just right clicked the slots i liked and choose open in new Tab. No extra login was necessary ...

 

[hausse222]

Wow, unbelievable how creative casinos can be inventing rules to avoid paying wins

 

[spintee]

Sorry to hear that news, I have heard of the casino, Ive nether came across this rule in all my gambling years, Well saying that it does ring a bell but maybe as there is rules stating only 1 game aloud open but most have measures in place for this such as will not let you open more than 1 game, Normally if you open up a new browser and sign in than your previous session will expire, Some casinos may not have this is place,

I am going to try and read rules now, Very bad yet again to see peoples money getting pissed away due to bent rules, There should of been measures in place to stop this happening, Or better still get rid of the scam rules

 

[spintee]

Wow, unbelievable how creative casinos can be inventing rules to avoid paying wins

Tell me about it, Getting worser by the day, Its unbelievable & beggars believe that casinos have such crazy rules, & get away with them, If the O.P had lost do you think they would sent email saying sorry you broke rules please read terms? No they would of kept taking money until such time a withdraw is made

 

[spintee]

To top it of you probably wont see 5 scatters again (hope you do) let alone on a £.3.60 click,

 

[fun4all]

absolutely ridiculous if that is a rule

 

[Azzurri]

Sorry to hear about this op. I can imagine your anger.

Just a couple things to consider:

I have heard of this term at other sites before, and you may be surprised just how many actually have it within their terms.

I found your 'real casino' comparison very interesting, as I don't know about other countries, but here in Australia it is actually forbidden to play two physical slots at the one time. You aren't even allowed to have another machine reserved whilst you play another. Here it is one slot at any one time.

Just some points you may find interesting.

Sorry again for your hassles.

 

[chayton]

I didn't even know you could do that actually, except at Redbet. I don't see where playing multiple games at once would benefit the player, most times it would make you lose money faster. Maybe they consider it a form of bonus abuse though, or combining the bets from all games is over the max bet? However, if they have it as a rule and you broke it, you're pretty well out of luck I think. Sucks though.

 

[gokkie]

i just right clicked the slots i liked and choose open in new Tab. No extra login was necessary ...

Did you play multiple slots at the same time and with that did you bet more than 5€ a spin? For example 3.60 at DOA and 2€ at another slot thus breaking the €5 rule?
Or did you just leave it open while playing in a new window?

 

[Azzurri]

Did you play multiple slots at the same time and with that did you bet more than 5€ a spin? For example 3.60 at DOA and 2€ at another slot thus breaking the €5 rule?
Or did you just leave it open while playing in a new window?

I'm not sure the max bet rule would be relevant or breached in this example, although it does raise an interesting discussion.

My theory is, based on the example of a $5 max bet, even if you are playing two different slots at the same time, and have both set to the $5 max bet, it is still near impossible to go over the max bet rule. This is because each spin on either slot is still just a single individual bet on a seperate entity, so I can't see how the bets could be combined to count as a $10 stake.

Even the logs would show individual spins of $5 per spin, albeit on seperate slots one after another.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[gokkie]

I'm not sure the max bet rule would be relevant or breached in this example, although it does raise an interesting discussion.

My theory is, based on the example of a $5 max bet, even if you are playing two different slots at the same time, and have both set to the $5 max bet, it is still near impossible to go over the max bet rule. This is because each spin on either slot is still just a single individual bet on a seperate entity, so I can't see how the bets could be combined to count as a $10 stake.

Even the logs would show individual spins of $5 per spin, albeit on seperate slots one after another.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes, I think you are right and the slots bets would be seperate even though you would be playing them at the same time.
So that raises another question: Why would a player be punished for having multiple slots open?? It makes no sense to me.

I am a regular at Redbet and play multiple slots at the same time, or play with one leaving the other one just open.
Just yesterday I was playing at casino Saga and had a seperate window of a slot open while playing at another one.
I did not even realize it. Maybe I was breaking a term there too??

AT 32RED I have multiple windows of slots open ALL the time (just forget I have them open). Never been a problem there.

 

[Wild Reels]

there is also this nice term lurking in there

7.13 Winnings earned using deposit bonus is limited to a maximum amount of the deposit multiplied by 50.

125x50 =6250

so that would be the next hurdle...

 

[gutty62]

Casinos have rules in place supposedly to protect themselves against professional players or thieves or whatever is lurking out there. That is fine. The ENFORCEMENT of these rules when it is not broken by a player in order to take advantage of the casino is predatory and disturbing.

What is obviously happening in the industry right now is that many of these casinos are combing through play history to find any minor infraction of a rule.. and regardless if it helps the player or hurts the player they are using it as a way to not pay the player. It IS theft.

Using your rules as a tool to no pay players is predatory and should not be accepted by the gambling community. These casinos should be rogued immediately upon attempting to use a term like this when there is no benefit to the player. This casino should be legally obligated to pay back all players deposits who have lost if any of the terms are broken also. Not just keep the winnings.

an example would be an excluded game. Perhaps the casino has some excluded slots. The player is playing allowed games for a few hundered spins. Then the player forgets and spins on one excluded game by accident for 10 spins. In those 10 spins the player lost £10. Then the player goes back to allowed games and hits a jackpot or a big win for 2000£. The excluded game actually was to the casinos benefit of 10£. However the casino will use this rule to steal ALL of the winnings when it had no bearing on the win itself. That is not the purpose of the rule. If the excluded game amounted to a win then you take that away of course. and any winnings after that point because it was from money won against the rules. But it is not ok to take the players winnings when a breach had nothing to do with a win. That is just a way to be a theif. It is predatory and it is certainly not doing honest business.

 

[refre]

I feel for you!

Is this a general term, or only for bonus play?

Seems strange that they allow for several games to be opened, when it's against terms.

In my experience the active game will be disconnected if you open a new one.

Unless of course it's offered as a feature, like Redbet do.

Also, do games open in separate tabs/windows?

If so, this must be a disaster waiting to happen...

Considering the max win on the SUB, I'm not surprised they took advantage of it though.


Freddy

 

[vinylweatherman]

This idea of being able to play more than one game at once was implemented because it benefits the casino (players can lose faster). Microgaming introduced "tabbed gaming" some years ago so that players could have several games running at once. Bingo and poker sites actively encourage players to have a "side game" open to play whilst they are waiting for the next betting round or for a game of bingo to complete. They prefer players to be making them a little money rather than just sitting there staring at the screen doing nothing until it's time for them to act again.

Where not activated as a feature, it is blocked for security reasons. For example, if you log in to a Microgaming casino from another PC whilst you already have it logged in, the earlier session will be logged out. If this casino doesn't want players to open multiple games, they should not allow the software to support it in such an obvious manner as tabbed browsing, which has become the accepted norm since tabbed browsing first came on the scene as a novel new feature in Chrome.

It's possible that this is another way of voiding a win that will get used more and more by casinos, so players had better be careful not to leave unused tabs or windows open when playing at any casino. It seems it's having the game open that is prohibited, nothing about whether more than one game is actually being played.

 

[sigothx1]

Clear breach of terms.

That said what an utter rogue term, having 50 slots open at the same time does not give anyone an advantage, if anything its quicker revenue for the casino, a site to avoid like the bubonic plague.

 

[asadzareef89]

Well I dont know for sure but highly doubt the casino would put the money back into a players account for playing multiple games, Netent casinos were supreme to start with but with time as more have come along, there's now plenty of roguish netent casinos as well.

Before I would associate these kind of terms with casinos from RTG, playtech, betsoft and other unknown softwares but never with netent.

Now there's slotobank, casinoroom(they had a super hidden unfair term apparently used to void winnings), now this one and plenty more

I hope netent takes notice as its a great provider

 

[chuchu59]

Terms are set in the Ts and Cs for a reason and most of them are there to prevent bonus abuse. This ridiculous term is there just to void winnings as it brings no benefit to the player. Next time there will be a term which states'Thou shalt not click your mouse with your left hand while playing slots or 'playing a 3 reel slot before a 5-reel slot voids all winnings'. I believe its correct to PAB and if the casino voids winnings this way a warning can be served to players.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Terms are set in the Ts and Cs for a reason and most of them are there to prevent bonus abuse. This ridiculous term is there just to void winnings as it brings no benefit to the player. Next time there will be a term which states'Thou shalt not click your mouse with your left hand while playing slots or 'playing a 3 reel slot before a 5-reel slot voids all winnings'. I believe its correct to PAB and if the casino voids winnings this way a warning can be served to players.

This is already a term I have seen for what is marketed as a "slots bonus". Usually it's defined as "classic slots" as opposed to "video slots", with "all classic slots" being excluded games for a slots bonus. I have seen this at both RTG and Playtech casinos in some form.

There is also a widespread term saying that players must "click their mouse" for each spin, rather than use any kind of autospin functionality. It does not say which hand must be used, but this is something they can't record in any case.

Perhaps having multiple games open "confuses the RNG" and gives the player an advantage because of this. I have seen this explanation offered by a casino that has voided winnings for the use of a strategy, such as changing to a bigger bet every 9th spin, basing a current bet on the outcome of the previous round, etc.

 

[chayton]

There is also a widespread term saying that players must "click their mouse" for each spin, rather than use any kind of autospin functionality. It does not say which hand must be used, but this is something they can't record in any case.

Actually that's a good point though about autoplay, if you have more than one game open at once, you can't be playing them all unless you're using autoplay, which some casinos don't let you do with a bonus either.

This casino doesn't have any term about using autoplay (that I could find) only about bot play. And weird that the multiple game term is stuck under the deposits and withdrawals header where it doesn't make sense to be. Also it doesn't specify that it's only for bonus play either.

 

[Mouche12]

At Holland Casino players are allowed to occupy more than one slot machine at the time. Multiple online casinos (including NetEnt), as others mentioned, allow playing up to 4 games simultaneously. I concur with what's been said before, this seems to be a predatory rule. I don't know about any possible effects on the RNG, but it seems clear to me that playing multiple games at the same time would, in principle, only benefit the casino. I really feel sorry for the OP, I would try submit a PAB, you never know...

 

[vinylweatherman]

At Holland Casino players are allowed to occupy more than one slot machine at the time. Multiple online casinos (including NetEnt), as others mentioned, allow playing up to 4 games simultaneously. I concur with what's been said before, this seems to be a predatory rule. I don't know about any possible effects on the RNG, but it seems clear to me that playing multiple games at the same time would, in principle, only benefit the casino. I really feel sorry for the OP, I would try submit a PAB, you never know...

If there is a set limit of 4, then this is an intentional feature of the software, not a "hack" by a clever abuser. Right back in 2004, there was no chance to play several games at once as software clients specifically prevented it! If clients in 2014 are now allowing it, then this is intentional, and it's down to casinos realising that they can make money faster if players can play more than one game at a time.

This term here says nothing about bonuses, nor whether the game is even being played, it's purely that the game is "open" that counts. One reason players might do this is so that they can "bookmark" their favoured games and switch between then during a session without having to go right back to searching through a list of 100+ games to find and open it again each time they want to switch.

If it's such a problem, then the feature should be disabled, which should be easy to do provided a secure connection is being used. Any attempt to open a new game would result in the old game getting disconnected. If software developers thought there would be scope for abuse, they would never have pushed ahead with the development of tabbed gaming, and instead would have tightened up the software in order to ensure that the new tabbed browsing ability did not provide a loophole to multiple games being open at the same time.

This seems related to another weird term that prohibited players from using "multiple browsers" that I have seen in the past. It was never properly explained what was meant by this, but perhaps it's an earlier attempt at writing this current term from before tabbed browsing was widespread.

 

[casinokoenig]

I invited the casino via email to join the discussion here after they refused to refund ALL my deposits where i had broken the very same rule (wich again was over 1000 € to the point i finally "won")

 

[kavaman]

To casinokoenig, similar has happaned to me at another site. I really doubt you get your deposits back , only the last deposit ;(. I didn't deliberately break any rules, but atleast i was only entitled back my last deposit ;( I guess the casino's have the rights do do this ....

Anyway the rule is once again on different part of their site, in terms and conditions, where all the other rules related to promotions are in the short terms here :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

5e maxbet net ent slots only. And this rule is on this 20 page terms and conditions located in

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

. Point 7.17 on the terms. They couldn't even put this to their general promotional terms located at

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

So everyone should read all these terms? Im sure they could have made the terms a bit more simple unless they were trying to hide some FU clause in there.....

 

[casinokoenig]

update:
casino claims playing more than one slot machines affects the RNG(!?)

Casino also not willing to return the deposits i ve made (~1k€) see email conversation : "We have returned deposit and bonus to your players account. All previous deposits will not be refunded as we can return deposits only if in case player wins using the bonus and violates Terms & Conditions of the bonus."


Their email and my answer:


... your argument with the play of multiple slot machines affecting the RNG - you would be the first casino to have this happen - there are hundreds of Online Casinos , also with Netent Slots that dont have this rule , yes they even want players to play more than one game at a time so the players lose faster/enjoy the games more because of less boredom.
How are this effects ? And how do you measure them ?
Sorry but to me it just sounds like an excuse to not payout winnings and appearently this opinion also applies to fellow gamblers. I understand theres a max.bet rule and i understand that not all games are allowed if a casino grants a deposit bonus.
BUT
with these comparably quite high wagering requirements, the max. bet rule of 5€ and even not all slot games applicable this "new" additional rule ("its not allowed to play more than one slot machine at once") followed by the the argument with multiple slots affecting the RNG alltough this doesnt appear to happen other Netent Casinos is a little bit hard to understand from a real money players perspective - to me it does more look like a reason for you to not pay winnings to your customers!

But again - please join the public discussion on CM and correct me if im wrong.

Outdated URL (Invalid)



Chris



Am 03.02.2015 um 10:27 schrieb ParadiseWin Support:
> Hello Chris,
>
> We have explained the situation to you before. When player opens multiple games it may affect RNG (Random Number Generator). Our casino created this rule to prevent a possibility of any fraudulent activity and leave more chances to win all other players. This is players responsibility to read Terms&Conditions before playing at the casino. We have returned deposit and bonus to your players account. All previous deposits will not be refunded as we can return deposits only if in case player wins using the bonus and violates Terms & Conditions of the bonus.
> This decision is final and it won't change.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact our support team in case of any questions.
>
> Sincerely,
> ParadiseWin Support
>

 

[spintee]

Im sorry to hear casinokoenig,

But that RNG is total bullshit, They do not no what they are saying,

what was that link you put in there? Not working

 

[casinokoenig]

Im sorry to hear casinokoenig,

But that RNG is total bullshit, They do not no what they are saying,

what was that link you put in there? Not working

Its the link to this thread here but since crossposting isnt allowed i changed it.

 

[davos11]

After reading through recent threads today i honestly feel a little sick , There seems to be some really rogueish ongoings with casinos recently !

It really does seem that sites are using entrapment to max profits as the expense of unknowing victims

Unless you are an experience player with a certain degree of in depth knowledge on how most terms and conditions work then you are a complete sitting duck
Max stake rule to void winnings
multiple open games
Invalid games when using a bonus
certain slots with lower wagering contribution than others

I see no reason why in this day and age , The casino can not protect itself automatically from the above rather than leaving it in the players hands ( of course then they could not re-take winnings as there own , which is the real story here ),

Like someone mentioned earlier , if a second slot is opened in a new window , then close the first session or pop up an error message , Problem solved !
How about a max stake warning pop up , or not allowing you to load up a certain Invalid game if you are not allowed to play on that particular bonus .

I really feel for guys like the OP and all the others i have read from the last few days , You can make many many deposits before you get a big hit or even a potentially life changing hit , New car , Nice family holiday , Only for it to be taken back on a small technicality .....

not to mention if you break a rule they don't tell you , Your allowed to continue playing and losing your depositing money with no chance of ever winning , And the rule breaking is only bought to your attention when you win when you have probably ( if unaware ) been breaking that rule for weeks and months earlier . Seems rules are fine to be broken aslong as you are losing but never if your winning , if you break a rule , WIN or LOSE , and they take winnings they should refund all other deposits where you also broke this rule as you never had a chance of winning .

I honestly feel the industry has changed now , massively for the worse , even some of the most reputable sites seem to be heading down this road now , Such a shame .

 

[spintee]

Great words spoken, I my self have felt the casino industry is a mine field of traps & getting worse, Even great casinos have jumped on the band wagon and join the fields,

Very few trusted and respected casinos out there now days, But as you pointed out:::

Unless you are an experience player with a certain degree of in depth knowledge on how most terms and conditions work then you are a complete sitting duck

This is no what casinos rely on, New players that are the sitting ducks, Hence why alot of casinos have dropped most bonuses, VIP's Ect & why us regs do not see the the promos we used to,

Very sad to see all this happening, Even if you did manage to pass the enigma code and manage a withdraw than they want your signature in blood,

After reading through recent threads today i honestly feel a little sick , There seems to be some really rogueish ongoings with casinos recently !

It really does seem that sites are using entrapment to max profits as the expense of unknowing victims

Unless you are an experience player with a certain degree of in depth knowledge on how most terms and conditions work then you are a complete sitting duck
Max stake rule to void winnings
multiple open games
Invalid games when using a bonus
certain slots with lower wagering contribution than others

I see no reason why in this day and age , The casino can not protect itself automatically from the above rather than leaving it in the players hands ( of course then they could not re-take winnings as there own , which is the real story here ),

Like someone mentioned earlier , if a second slot is opened in a new window , then close the first session or pop up an error message , Problem solved !
How about a max stake warning pop up , or not allowing you to load up a certain Invalid game if you are not allowed to play on that particular bonus .

I really feel for guys like the OP and all the others i have read from the last few days , You can make many many deposits before you get a big hit or even a potentially life changing hit , New car , Nice family holiday , Only for it to be taken back on a small technicality .....

not to mention if you break a rule they don't tell you , Your allowed to continue playing and losing your depositing money with no chance of ever winning , And the rule breaking is only bought to your attention when you win when you have probably ( if unaware ) been breaking that rule for weeks and months earlier . Seems rules are fine to be broken aslong as you are losing but never if your winning , if you break a rule , WIN or LOSE , and they take winnings they should refund all other deposits where you also broke this rule as you never had a chance of winning .

I honestly feel the industry has changed now , massively for the worse , even some of the most reputable sites seem to be heading down this road now , Such a shame .

 

[vinylweatherman]

That excuse is laughable. Rogue pit material really.

If this DOES affect the RTG, then they should be thrown in the pit for running dodgy software, if the excuse is BS, then they should still be in the pit for making up bogus excuses. Shame they weren't running Galewind's software, you would have been paid and their licence yanked. Heroes casino tried something similar with a CM member some while ago who played Blackjack "with a system", one that Heroes casino said made the software pay out more than it should. The supplier (Galewind) was none too pleased at the "official confirmation" to the player and the community that their software was this "flaky", and decided to pay the player concerned themselves, and then they tossed Heroes casino to the curb.

I suppose they also void winnings from players who just use their own cash, no bonuses, as after all, it still affects the RTP as they say.

It was probably the 5 scatters that did it, a win that "shouldn't be possible" unless you had found a way to beat the RNG by opening several games at once. They need to learn that even a several million to one shot is "possible", and that there is a chance that a player will hit it and win a very large sum. Funny how all that earlier play didn't "beat the RNG", and they are accepting the results as valid purely because the outcome went in their favour.

This excuse will have to be nominated for a CM award next year, but it's not one they should be proud to receive.

 

[Jasminebed]

So how does a casino like this get thrown in the rogue pit?

Maxd, would you consider allowing the OP to PAB? I realize he has used his one time for a non-accredited Casino, and I doubt your intervention will be successful in getting him paid.

If they refuse to cooperate, they might end up on No Can Do at least.

Of course, for the OP there is almost nothing to gain other than saving some other player from a similar fate.

I've reported my post so the mods will see it, but of course I know everyone is busy in London right now.

When I see a casino using such bogus excuses to void winnings, makes me wanna puke.

 

[casinokoenig]

another email from them - i was waiting to publish it since i wanted to give them the chance to reply in this thread first wich they didnt do by today (this is by now almost two weeks ago) :

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the link. One of our representatives should give an explanation.
But I'll explain briefly - when player opens multiple games it may affect RNG (Random Number Generator). Our casino created this rule to prevent a possibility of any fraudulent activity and leave more chances to win all other players. This is players responsibility to read Terms&Conditions before playing at the casino.

Please do not hesitate to contact our support team in case of any questions.

Sincerely,
ParadiseWin Support

 

[Mouche12]

another email from them - i was waiting to publish it since i wanted to give them the chance to reply in this thread first wich they didnt do by today (this is by now almost two weeks ago) :

Hi Chris,

Thank you for the link. One of our representatives should give an explanation.
But I'll explain briefly - when player opens multiple games it may affect RNG (Random Number Generator). Our casino created this rule to prevent a possibility of any fraudulent activity and leave more chances to win all other players. This is players responsibility to read Terms&Conditions before playing at the casino.

Please do not hesitate to contact our support team in case of any questions.

Sincerely,
ParadiseWin Support

Then why are there plenty casinos where you can play multiple games simultaenously? this is such BS, as has been said before. Poor English too -- "more chances to win all other players"?? I get what they mean and it's total BS too!

I really hope that Maxd can do something about this since their "rule" is clearly unfair and unreasonable. Its sole purpose is to screw players all over.

 

[Jasminebed]

There is one valid reason to have this rule, and it is to prevent grinding a bonus.

Better ways to write such a rule (sorry, late and I am not going back to re-read everything.) Not much of a fan of such rules in general, in fact, casinos stand to lose more in the long haul if players play bigger bets rather than smaller.

But when casinos start spouting nonsense about the RTP being manipulated, just gets my Irish up.

 

[Cocochanel]

I think I would send these people an email asking about RNG and not mention Paradisewin, just a generel question, see what they say about this problem the op has with this casino.





iTech Labs Australia ACN 108 249 761 www.itechlabs.com.auSuite 24, 40 Montclair Ave, Glen Waverley, VIC 3150, Australia. Tel. +61 3 9561 9955
iTech Labs is an IEC/ISO 17025 accredited testing laboratory

 

[maxd]

Hi everyone! Jazz asked me to pop in here and have a look, possibly consider a PAB. I'd be happy to do so, but any in-depth examination of this will have to wait until next week when I'm back in my office (The London conference is in full swing).

@ OP : Please read the PAB FAQ (link is in my signature) and submit a PAB. I can't promise I'll do the PAB for you but I will look it over and give it serious consideration.

Regarding that claim by the casino people that their RNG works like a sausage grinder and they can't have too many games running because that'll clog it up .. oy vey! Welcome back to 1998 folks! We haven't seen that level of lame witless BS in a good many years.

 

[Mechanimal]

Oh wow, this really ruined my morning : ( feels bad, man. Hopefully you'll get your winnings back!

 

[quber]

I think I would send these people an email asking about RNG and not mention Paradisewin, just a generel question, see what they say about this problem the op has with this casino.


iTech Labs Australia ACN 108 249 761 www.itechlabs.com.auSuite 24, 40 Montclair Ave, Glen Waverley, VIC 3150, Australia. Tel. +61 3 9561 9955
iTech Labs is an IEC/ISO 17025 accredited testing laboratory

I would also contact Netent as well and tell them that one of their casinos has told you that their RNG is faulty and let them know about this thread. [email protected]

 

[casinokoenig]

I would also contact Netent as well and tell them that one of their casinos has told you that their RNG is faulty and let them know about this thread. [email protected]

Informed and pointed them to this thread aswell.
will PAB now (thanks Max)

 

[incrediblestuff]

Good that you submitted all the info to the people that might actually do something about it, obviously the correct thing would be to pay you, assuming it all went as you described, and i must say i am really interested in how for instance Netent will react to this matter, and how this will pan out for all parties involved.

And thanks Vinyl. i actually missed that part where Galewind paid the player instead, what a commendable thing to do!
Wonder what they are doing these days? Companies like that should be in business...

 

[casinokoenig]

update:
casino claims playing more than one slot machines affects the RNG(!?)

Casino also not willing to return the deposits i ve made (~1k€) see email conversation : "We have returned deposit and bonus to your players account. All previous deposits will not be refunded as we can return deposits only if in case player wins using the bonus and violates Terms & Conditions of the bonus."


Their email and my answer:


... your argument with the play of multiple slot machines affecting the RNG - you would be the first casino to have this happen - there are hundreds of Online Casinos , also with Netent Slots that dont have this rule , yes they even want players to play more than one game at a time so the players lose faster/enjoy the games more because of less boredom.
How are this effects ? And how do you measure them ?
Sorry but to me it just sounds like an excuse to not payout winnings and appearently this opinion also applies to fellow gamblers. I understand theres a max.bet rule and i understand that not all games are allowed if a casino grants a deposit bonus.
BUT
with these comparably quite high wagering requirements, the max. bet rule of 5€ and even not all slot games applicable this "new" additional rule ("its not allowed to play more than one slot machine at once") followed by the the argument with multiple slots affecting the RNG alltough this doesnt appear to happen other Netent Casinos is a little bit hard to understand from a real money players perspective - to me it does more look like a reason for you to not pay winnings to your customers!

But again - please join the public discussion on CM and correct me if im wrong.

Outdated URL (Invalid)



Chris



Am 03.02.2015 um 10:27 schrieb ParadiseWin Support:
> Hello Chris,
>
> We have explained the situation to you before. When player opens multiple games it may affect RNG (Random Number Generator). Our casino created this rule to prevent a possibility of any fraudulent activity and leave more chances to win all other players. This is players responsibility to read Terms&Conditions before playing at the casino. We have returned deposit and bonus to your players account. All previous deposits will not be refunded as we can return deposits only if in case player wins using the bonus and violates Terms & Conditions of the bonus.
> This decision is final and it won't change.
>
> Please do not hesitate to contact our support team in case of any questions.
>
> Sincerely,
> ParadiseWin Support
>

This is their "answer" to my email:

Hello Chris,

Your winnings been cancelled due to Terms&Conditions of ParadiseWin casino violation. This is players responsibility to read the all points of Terms&Conditions before player starts playing. Player confirms that he agreed to T&C when registering an account and once he starts playing. If you think that our company acts against the Terms&Conditions and your winning been cancelled unfairly please do not hesitate to contact our support team at anytime.

Sincerely,
ParadiseWin Support

 

[vinylweatherman]

Good that you submitted all the info to the people that might actually do something about it, obviously the correct thing would be to pay you, assuming it all went as you described, and i must say i am really interested in how for instance Netent will react to this matter, and how this will pan out for all parties involved.

And thanks Vinyl. i actually missed that part where Galewind paid the player instead, what a commendable thing to do!
Wonder what they are doing these days? Companies like that should be in business...

There is no justice, Galewind don't seem to have many takers for their games, but what they did was very rare, possibly unique, and shows that they take the reputation of their software seriously. Hopefully, the trend towards multi provider casinos will give them an opportunity to market their games without having to market them as a "Galewind casino (only) package".

Playtech always look the other way when stuff like this happens, yet justice never seems to catch up with them.

Perhaps NetEnt could be persuaded to "do a Galewind" on this casino, at least to the extent of stripping them of the right to use NetEnt games, as their excuse has more or less claimed that the NetEnt games' RNG can't cope with too many games being run at the same time, and therefore needs to be "shared out" among all players fairly, and policed by having a strict policy of only allowing one player to have one game open at any one time.

If this is true, then NetEnt games could STILL be operating in a non random manner simply because too many individual players, each with one game, are on the system at the same time.

I couldn't even find this term last night, yet I was looking at their general section covering the use of bots, manipulation of the games or software, hacking, fraud, etc. It also allows them to deem anything they seem fit as "manipulation of the games/software", so perhaps this is what they have done here.

They have a Curacao secondary licence, and don't seem to use a known brand multi provider platform (OddsMatrix, for example). The terms also ban UK players from many products, but in fact they should be banning UK players completely as there is no sign of them having a UK licence. Instead, it looks like they accept UK players for products who's providers won't give them a hard time for doing so.

 

[spintee]

There is no justice, Galewind don't seem to have many takers for their games, but what they did was very rare, possibly unique, and shows that they take the reputation of their software seriously. Hopefully, the trend towards multi provider casinos will give them an opportunity to market their games without having to market them as a "Galewind casino (only) package".

Playtech always look the other way when stuff like this happens, yet justice never seems to catch up with them.

Perhaps NetEnt could be persuaded to "do a Galewind" on this casino, at least to the extent of stripping them of the right to use NetEnt games, as their excuse has more or less claimed that the NetEnt games' RNG can't cope with too many games being run at the same time, and therefore needs to be "shared out" among all players fairly, and policed by having a strict policy of only allowing one player to have one game open at any one time.

If this is true, then NetEnt games could STILL be operating in a non random manner simply because too many individual players, each with one game, are on the system at the same time.

I couldn't even find this term last night, yet I was looking at their general section covering the use of bots, manipulation of the games or software, hacking, fraud, etc. It also allows them to deem anything they seem fit as "manipulation of the games/software", so perhaps this is what they have done here.

They have a Curacao secondary licence, and don't seem to use a known brand multi provider platform (OddsMatrix, for example). The terms also ban UK players from many products, but in fact they should be banning UK players completely as there is no sign of them having a UK licence. Instead, it looks like they accept UK players for products who's providers won't give them a hard time for doing so.

Are they excepting players from U.K?

I seen this but found nothing about multy games running

Due to legal regulations ParadiseWin Casino does not accept players from the following territories: United Kingdom, Belgium, Israel, Denmark, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Italy, France, French Guiana, French Polynesia, France and its territories (including French Guiana, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Reunion, Mayotte), Spain, Turkey, USA or US Minor Outlying Islands, Latvia

 

[vinylweatherman]

Are they excepting players from U.K?

I seen this but found nothing about multy games running

Due to legal regulations ParadiseWin Casino does not accept players from the following territories: United Kingdom, Belgium, Israel, Denmark, Hong Kong, Cyprus, Italy, France, French Guiana, French Polynesia, France and its territories (including French Guiana, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Reunion, Mayotte), Spain, Turkey, USA or US Minor Outlying Islands, Latvia

Their terms are a mess. They also have this:-

9.8 Players from the following territories are not eligible to play Games-OS Games: United Kingdom, Belgium, Israel, Denmark, Hong Kong, Cyprus,Italy, France, French Guiana, French Polynesia, France and its territories (including French Guiana, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Martinique, Guadeloupe, Reunion, Mayotte), Spain,Turkey, USA or US Minor Outlying Islands, Latvia.

9.9 Players from following countries cannot play Playtech games at ParadiseWin Casino: United Kingdom, Afghanistan, American Samoa,Belgium, Bulgaria, Cuba, Cyprus, Estonia, Guam, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Libya, Netherlands Antilles, Northern Mariana Islands , Philippines, Puerto Rico, Sudan, Syria, Turkey, U.S. Virgin Islands, U.S.A., US Minor Outlying Islands, Antiqua and Barbuda, Palestine, France, French Guinea, French Polynesia, French Southern Territories, Guadeloupe, Martinique, Mayotte, Reunion, Saint Pierre and Miquelon, Wallis and Futuna, New Caledonia, Bahamas, Barbados, Belize, Dominica, Grenada, Guyana, Haiti, Jamaica, Montserrat, Saint Kitts and Nevis, LC Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Suriname, Trinidad and Tobago.

9.10 SBTech Sportsbook product is not offered to players residing in United Kingdom, Bulgaria and Israel.

9.11 Net Entertainment games 'Scarface' and 'Frankenstein' are offered only to players residing in the following countries: United Kingdom, Albania, Andorra, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Georgia, Israel, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Norway, Russia, San Marino, Serbia, Switzerland, Ukraine, Croatia, Macedonia, Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Sweden and United Kingdom.

9.11 ALLOWS players from the UK to play NetEnt games, and they are even in a special sub group able to play the two additional games 'Scarface' and 'Frankenstein' .

9.11 is inconsistent with a blanket ban on UK players, and 9.8, 9.9, and 9.10 ban UK players from specific products, pointless if they are overridden by a term banning UK players completely.

Still no sign of the term used to confiscate the OP's winnings though.

Section 11 seems to cover a pretty wide definition of "fraud" though:-

11. COLLUSION, CHEATING, FRAUD AND CRIMINAL ACTIVITY

11.1 The following practices (or any of them) in relation to the Services :

abuse of bonuses or other promotions; and/or

using unfair external factors or influences (commonly known as cheating); and/or

taking unfair advantage (as defined in paragraph 11.5.3);

opening any Duplicate Accounts; and/or

undertaking fraudulent practice or criminal activity (as defined in paragraph 11.5),

constitute "Prohibited Practices" and are not permitted and will constitute a material breach of the Terms of Use. We will take all reasonable steps to prevent and detect such practices and to identify the relevant players concerned if they do occur. Subject to the above, however, we will not be liable for any loss or damage which You may incur as a result of any Prohibited Practices, and any action we take in respect of the same will be at our sole discretion.

11.2 If You suspect a person is engaged in any Prohibited Practice, You shall as soon as reasonably practicable report it to us by e-mailing us or telephoning Customer Services.

11.3 You agree that You shall not participate in or be connected with any form of Prohibited Practice in connection with Your access to or use of the Services.

11.4 If:

11.4.1 we have reasonable grounds to believe that You have participated in or have been connected with any form of Prohibited Practice (and the basis of our belief shall include the use by us (and by our gaming partners and our other suppliers) of any fraud, cheating and collusion detection practices which are used in the gambling and gaming industry at the relevant time); or

11.4.2 You have placed bets and/or played online games with any other online provider of gambling services and are suspected (as a result of such play) of any Prohibited Practice or otherwise improper activity; or

11.4.3 we become aware that You have "charged back" or denied any of the purchases or deposits that You made to Your Account; or

11.4.4 You become bankrupt or suffer analogous proceedings anywhere in the world,

then, (including in connection with any suspension and/or termination of Your Account) we shall have the right, in respect of Your Account (and/or any other account held by You with a HighWeb Ventures N.V. company) to withhold the whole or part of the balance and/or recover from the account the amount of any deposits, pay-outs, bonuses or winnings which have been affected by or are in any way attributable to any of the event(s) contemplated in this paragraph 11.4. The rights set out in this paragraph 11.4 are without prejudice to any other rights (including any common law rights) that we may have against You, whether under the Terms of Use or otherwise.

11.5 For the purposes of this paragraph 11:

11.5.1 a "fraudulent practice" means any fraudulent activity engaged in by You or by any person acting on Your behalf or in collusion with You, and shall include, without limitation: (a) fraudulent charge-backs; (b) the use by You or any other person who was participating in the same game as You at any time, of a stolen, cloned or otherwise unauthorized credit or debit card, as a source of funds; (c) the collusion by You with others in order to gain an unfair advantage (including through bonus schemes or similar incentives offered by us); (d) any attempt to register false or misleading account information; (e) any actual or attempted act by You which is reasonably deemed by us to be illegal in any applicable jurisdiction, made in bad faith, or intended to defraud us and/or circumvent any contractual or legal restrictions, regardless of whether such act or attempted act actually causes us any damage or harm;

11.5.2 a "criminal activity" shall include, without limitation, money laundering and any offence under of the Gambling Act; and

11.5.3 an "unfair advantage" shall include, without limitation:

11.5.3.1 the exploitation of a fault, loophole or error in our or any third party's software used by You in connection with the Services (including in respect of any game);

11.5.3.2 the use of automated players ('bots'), or other 3rd party software or analysis systems; or

11.5.3.3 the exploitation by You, of an 'Error' as defined in paragraph 18.1, in any case either to Your advantage and/or to the disadvantage of us or other.

11.6 In exercising any of our rights under paragraph 11.4 in relation to a Prohibited Practice, we shall use all reasonable endeavors to ensure that, while complying with our regulatory and other legal obligations, we exercise such rights in a manner which is fair to You and to our other customers.

11.7 We reserve the right to inform relevant authorities, other online gaming or gambling operators, other online service providers and banks, credit card companies, electronic payment providers or other financial institutions of Your identity and of any suspected Prohibited Practice by You, and You shall cooperate fully with us to investigate any such activity.

18.1.4 where an error has been made as a result of a Prohibited Practice under paragraph 11.1

It seems their case relies on the opening of more than one game causing the software to make errors in resolving outcomes, as if it does not, then these terms all fail to cover this case.

The "non exhaustive" nature of the lists in the terms means that they can define anything they like as being covered, even if it's not specifically against the terms.

The only way they can justify their stance is by having their claim that the RNG and outcomes of NetEnt games can be influenced to the advantage of a player (and to the unfair disadvantage of others) through the opening and playing of more than one game at any one time. This is only credible if the outcomes are partly dependent on past events like AWPs, and that how a player is playing now can affect their chances of winning in the future.

It seems that they believe that the 5 scatters on DOA were somehow the result of the game and/or RNG being "forced" in some way like an AWP can be "forced" to deliver a jackpot spin with the right playing technique.

 

[FAZI1]

150% Net Ent Bonus with wagering 40 x deposit + bonus + " The following Slot Games will only contribute 70% towards wagering requirement, meaning every €1 wagered on the following games will reduce the bonus wagering requirement by €0.70: Blood Suckers, Creature From The Black Lagoon, Eggomatic, Elements The Awakening, Fisticuffs, Gonzo's Quest, Lights, Magic Portals, Mythic Maiden, Reel Rush, Retro Super 80s, Secret of the Stones, Starburst, The Wish Master, Twin Spin, Wild Turkey *Both web and mobile versions of the above games are included." + max cashauts 50 x deposit amount.


And if somone finnaly finish wagering with to big amount in accont they find excuse to not pay even with ridicolus reason like in this case.....

Lets say true if you finish wagering in this case with small or medium amount like 100€-250€ then they will send payments without problem But you finish wagering with High amount so they must find some reason to void payments.

 

[asm]

What I think is most disturbing about this, that even if their set of rules which are borderline indecipherable, somehow can be interpreted as rule-breaking...

the software provider(s) will not do anything. I think it's absurd. Not that I am suggesting NETENT or any other entity should pony up money casinos owe to people, but the least they should do is remove their products from the hands of cheaters so others do not have to go through with things like these.

Some of the terms and bonus conditions are predatory and impossible, and software companies are fully complicit in letting customers be cheated regardless of the actual outcome of the wagers. Disgraceful.

 

[casinokoenig]

Hi again.

i withdrew 125 € (my last deposit before "winning" the 11k€) today - i submitted a PAB but appearently the site operators remained silent (of course since their argument about affected RNG´s is just plain bollox)

Its still hurting a lot and i dont like to think/write about all this - i didnt break any rule while playing except their invented "multiple slots at a time rule"

They stole 11k € by not paying out the 5 Scatter DOA Win (wich the high variance Slot machine paid to me) - i cant do anything about it anymore than to try to forget it (but sure not forgive it) and to wish this company all the worst and of course to warn all fellow gamblers:

DON´T DEPOSIT / PLAY AT PARADISEWIN.COM !

 

[Booo73]

I just registered with them simply because I was bored and they offered free spins. Didn't see this thread until now. Thought this might show how deceiptful they are. I played the couple of bucks I won on Stickers. Didn't win squat, however, on the side board where they show the winners apparently I won $10 on Stickers. NOT!!! How can they get away with showing false wins like that. I would stay away from this place at all costs if that's what they're playing at.