NoLimitCity doesn't seem to follow UKGC -laws (not sure if MGA has the same laws)

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
After yet another losing session on Tombstone, I thought I'd shed light on this subject.

UKCG laws (Old / Expired Link) state the following:

TS implementation guidance 7C
c. Games may not falsely display near-miss results, that is, the event may not substitute one losing outcome with a different losing outcome.


As @trancemonkey kindly told me on Bonanza Theory -thread, all reels are in fact predefined realsets. In Tombstone, scatters can drop on middle three reels. Stars can drop on 1st and 5th reel. If we are to believe, each spin is random and only reelset position can be randomly picked, Tombstone doesn't follow the law above.

When playing Tombstone you might notice some longer spins where wilds go just outside play area. Also note how needed scatter(s) are quite often just outside play area when getting 1-2 scatters. Are we really to believe 90% of the time, the reelset is just one position away from getting the scatters/stars? Or, is this just a way of luring players to keep playing as scatters are 'close'?

You can all see this by just playing the demo version of the game. However, just to back this up I will copy-paste some stuff I examined from the other thread (as it seems to have been forgotten already):

***

There seems to be a variable stating NearWinBigReels and nearWinReels as shown on this attachment:


nearwinreels.jpg

nearwinreels3.jpg
There are no sounds / effects on this game if a win is 'near', so as far as I see, there is no need for this variable, other than moving the reel to 'near win' position. Which is against the law.

***

@NolimitCity - Pelle , you can prove this is not true, in which case this thread can be removed. BUT, if this is true, makes one wonder which other laws can be neglected when going trough 'approval process'

PPS. as I said earlier, the same thing happens with scatters also on DOA as everyone has noticed.
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
After yet another losing session on Tombstone, I thought I'd shed light on this subject.

UKCG laws (Old / Expired Link) state the following:

TS implementation guidance 7C
c. Games may not falsely display near-miss results, that is, the event may not substitute one losing outcome with a different losing outcome.


As @trancemonkey kindly told me on Bonanza Theory -thread, all reels are in fact predefined realsets. In Tombstone, scatters can drop on middle three reels. Stars can drop on 1st and 5th reel. If we are to believe, each spin is random and only reelset position can be randomly picked, Tombstone doesn't follow the law above.

When playing Tombstone you might notice some longer spins where wilds go just outside play area. Also note how needed scatter(s) are quite often just outside play area when getting 1-2 scatters. Are we really to believe 90% of the time, the reelset is just one position away from getting the scatters/stars? Or, is this just a way of luring players to keep playing as scatters are 'close'?

You can all see this by just playing the demo version of the game. However, just to back this up I will copy-paste some stuff I examined from the other thread (as it seems to have been forgotten already):

***

There seems to be a variable stating NearWinBigReels and nearWinReels as shown on this attachment:


View attachment 146651

View attachment 146652
There are no sounds / effects on this game if a win is 'near', so as far as I see, there is no need for this variable, other than moving the reel to 'near win' position. Which is against the law.

***

@NolimitCity - Pelle , you can prove this is not true, in which case this thread can be removed. BUT, if this is true, makes one wonder which other laws can be neglected when going trough 'approval process'

PPS. as I said earlier, the same thing happens with scatters also on DOA as everyone has noticed.

If my understanding is correct, symbols that are not in view (I.e above or below the reels) are not included in this rule.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@trancemonkey . Why not? Isn't that the definition of 'near-miss'. Eg. on DOA, no one hunts a full line of stars (100xbet), but the scatters for the chance to win 3000xbet. I think the same applies to Tombstone (though my scatters today all gave below 20xbet, including one with 19 spins :) )

EDIT

And in my opinion they are on view if I can see a part of the symbol.
 

trancemonkey

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Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
@trancemonkey . Why not? Isn't that the definition of 'near-miss'. Eg. on DOA, no one hunts a full line of stars (100xbet), but the scatters for the chance to win 3000xbet. I think the same applies to Tombstone (though my scatters today all gave below 20xbet, including one with 19 spins :) )

EDIT

And in my opinion they are on view if I can see a part of the symbol.

I agree with your assertion, however, I don't believe it counts. Also, the rule you quote is about replacing one losing spin with another. This is not what they are doing from what you wrote.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@trancemonkey - that is exactly what they are doing. If you play the game, please check all the times when 1-2 scatters are visible and how often the missing scatter(s) is one reel position away. You cannot honestly believe they are in fact one reel position away, but indeed 'changing losing spin'.
 

ChopleyIOM

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IOM
/watches thread.......

Can you shed any more light on the filters and traces you're running there manttih? I'm quite interested in poking around with this sort of thing myself (as per the Coral/Gala thing where it was proved they were displaying incorrect RTPs by analysing the network stack traces when the game was loading).
 

Kroffe

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Same for book of dead and the book missing by one position on the last reel.
Happens way too often to be "natural"
 

Gaz237

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
May 8, 2014
Location
chelmsford UK
After yet another losing session on Tombstone, I thought I'd shed light on this subject.

UKCG laws (Old / Expired Link) state the following:

TS implementation guidance 7C
c. Games may not falsely display near-miss results, that is, the event may not substitute one losing outcome with a different losing outcome.


As @trancemonkey kindly told me on Bonanza Theory -thread, all reels are in fact predefined realsets. In Tombstone, scatters can drop on middle three reels. Stars can drop on 1st and 5th reel. If we are to believe, each spin is random and only reelset position can be randomly picked, Tombstone doesn't follow the law above.

When playing Tombstone you might notice some longer spins where wilds go just outside play area. Also note how needed scatter(s) are quite often just outside play area when getting 1-2 scatters. Are we really to believe 90% of the time, the reelset is just one position away from getting the scatters/stars? Or, is this just a way of luring players to keep playing as scatters are 'close'?

You can all see this by just playing the demo version of the game. However, just to back this up I will copy-paste some stuff I examined from the other thread (as it seems to have been forgotten already):

***

There seems to be a variable stating NearWinBigReels and nearWinReels as shown on this attachment:


View attachment 146651

View attachment 146652
There are no sounds / effects on this game if a win is 'near', so as far as I see, there is no need for this variable, other than moving the reel to 'near win' position. Which is against the law.

***

@NolimitCity - Pelle , you can prove this is not true, in which case this thread can be removed. BUT, if this is true, makes one wonder which other laws can be neglected when going trough 'approval process'

PPS. as I said earlier, the same thing happens with scatters also on DOA as everyone has noticed.

Are you going to start a thread for every game you lose on?.

Nearly all games have the scatter miss by one regularly, and the scatters tend to be slightly bigger, so you can actually see the top or bottom of it in view.

Nothing to get in a Tizzy about.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@ChopleyIOM , I am using the developer tools on Firefox (F12). I search the different settings which update on each spin. Manual work, but can be done if one is persistent :)

@Gaz237 it doesnt matter if scatters are 'bigger' or not, if they are one reel position away, it is not natural and the law above should prevent this. I think you quite missed my point. @trancemonkey kindly gave me the laws by which the games should operate. If this one 'insignificant' law isn't followed and it's gone trough 'several audits by third party testers', then god only knows what other laws arent followed (compensation, bet size etc. etc.)

EDIT

@Gaz237 ... and so what if I do? Isn't that the whole point of discussion forums? If it wasn't for casinomeister, Bonanzas (still!) biggest win wouldn't have been reveiled as 'fraud'
 

DreamRJ

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Wait a minute. Fetching some popcorn for this thread and watchers :)

movie-theatre-popcorn.jpg
 

Kroffe

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Thats some big popcorn.

But if what Trance said is correct, and the rule does not apply to symbols landing outside of the reels, then they can show whatever they want there without being in breach of the rule about swapping losing spins.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@Kroffe - at that point I for once would ask what is the law for then? I used the example of DOA, where scatters are practically ALWAYS just one reel position away from being in play. No one cares about a star-line missing by one, the scatters are then ones people get 'addicted' to :)
 

dionysus

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Thats some big popcorn.

But if what Trance said is correct, and the rule does not apply to symbols landing outside of the reels, then they can show whatever they want there without being in breach of the rule about swapping losing spins.
I would really have to backtrack pages and threads but if IIRC, the same rules dont apply to online as B&M

But irrespective of that, dont by this stage, we all understand the reel is eye candy anyway?
It's win/loss...spin on, no?
 

Kroffe

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@Kroffe - at that point I for once would ask what is the law for then? I used the example of DOA, where scatters are practically ALWAYS just one reel position away from being in play. No one cares about a star-line missing by one, the scatters are then ones people get 'addicted' to :)
Yeah, i agree that the rule becomes pretty pointless if it does not apply to symbols landing outside of the reels.
But wouldnt surprise me if that was the case, gambling is full of stupid rules, most of them in favor of casinos.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@dionysus, @Kroffe, @Jono777 - as we here at casinomeister know this might or might not be the case. However, I think it is still against the law - as someone might keep playing the games just to get scatters because they are 'close' - We here know it doesn't matter if you get 20 GOLs on Bonanza, it doesn't mean anything. However, a random player might not know this.

which brings me to my next law-breaching fact :)

RTS requirement 3C
For each virtual event, game (including bingo), or lottery, information that may reasonably be expected to enable the customer to make an informed decision about his or her chances of winning must be easily available before the customer commits to gamble. Information must include:
iv. the probability (likelihood) of winning events occurring.


Which I cannot find on any online game
 

09237653

Ueber Meister
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Location
UK
Would this rule not apply to games that give you free scatters and then dont land the bonus?
pink elephants 2 and dragons fire megaways both spring to mind, cos they both just did it to me.
 

Halvor

Experienced Member
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Apr 3, 2018
Location
Malta
UKCG laws

Sorry to burst your bubble here, but your clearly playing at PAF, a casino that do not have a UKGC license and do not have to provide their games in accordance with UKGC regulations. So what exactly is the point of this?

Additionally your Finnish and as such UKGC would not be applicable for you even if the casino had a UK license.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@Halvor, as I said earlier, I'm not sure the same laws apply to MGA, but if someone could confirm this, it would be great!
PAF was just an example, as I couldn't find another place to play with demo mode (which should be the same as real version, as the laws state).
PAF is only one casino I play at, mostly I have played at MGA casinos (like today's session)

This is not just a rant - believe me, I have plenty of experience on these games.
 

Gaz237

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chelmsford UK
@Kroffe - at that point I for once would ask what is the law for then? I used the example of DOA, where scatters are practically ALWAYS just one reel position away from being in play. No one cares about a star-line missing by one, the scatters are then ones people get 'addicted' to :)

There is no law for symbols landing outside of the screen.

Trance, told you there was no rule, and you replied, Why Not?.

This thread is pointless.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@Gaz237 or @trancemonkey do you know where I can get a confirmation on this (there is no rule for symbols landing outside of the screen)? As I said earlier, it isn't outside of the screen if you see eg. half of the symbol - do you disagree with this? say you get two scatters on Tombstone, you wait awhile and the wheel spins longer only to drop the last scatter below the 'in-play-area' - this happens WAY too often to be deemed 'natural position of the reel'. Shouldn't the law prevent such 'luring' ?

**EDIT**

I don't see why the thread is pointless. For one thing, it creates discussion - which is why discussion forums exist.
 

Halvor

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Location
Malta
@Halvor, as I said earlier, I'm not sure the same laws apply to MGA, but if someone could confirm this, it would be great!
PAF was just an example, as I couldn't find another place to play with demo mode (which should be the same as real version, as the laws state).
PAF is only one casino I play at, mostly I have played at MGA casinos (like today's session)

This is not just a rant - believe me, I have plenty of experience on these games.
Feel free to go through MGA's site, you will find their regulations just as easily as UKGC.

Despite your reassurance that you have plenty of experience with the games, Trance just so happen to work in the industry and so do I. And this is just a rant, your entire purpose of the thread seems to be proving some sort of wrong doing on the casino/providers end, and it just happens to coincide with a losing session.
 

manttih

Full Member
Joined
Nov 18, 2016
@Halvor - where do you work, MGA or a provider? Do you disagree what I have told? Either way, you should know the answer to my original question, yet you tried to dismiss me with a secondary argument first (casino)?
 
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