new casino concept, comments welcome

[dionysus]

Honestly, I cannot believe we are giving this guy's snake oil pitch the time of day.

Igor puts it very nicely. Quite apart from the obvious flaws in the OP's assessment of how things work, we are being asked to trust some guy, who is a compulsive gambler, to hang on to "our" money for minimum 12 months and pay it back to us whenever we want? Yeah right.

If you're going to market an OC on the basis that you will never lose, then you absolutely HAVE to be able to guarantee that you can get the 12% annual return on your investments....which you CANNOT.

My opinion? Total BS.

Lol, actually, I was hoping someone with some casino authority would step up and respond, so thanks Igor.

 

[bigjohn]

Well, that was a fun morning read. Seems like Andrew has found a unique way to handle his gambling addiction, just use other peoples money!

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Now that's not necessarily true depends on the gamblers reason for gambling. I've closed my accounts at nearly all casinos save some Playtech's and one multi-platform. I don't have a problem but I'm not going to continue depositing while consistently losing. So I certainly don't have a problem. There are many reputable casinos that take responsible gambling seriously and have set in place tools that gamblers can use to limit their spending. I know Bet@ has a self exclusion tool that gamblers can access without having to even contact support. Different people have different reasons for gambling so I don't think it's necessarily fair to label them all as having compulsions or addictions. Also at the same time casinos should have every right to promote their businesses.

No but IMO it's certainly a cause for concern with your stability. Therefore it could very well be a risky proposition for any player.

True. Sorry not meaning to generalise

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Lol, actually, I was hoping someone with some casino authority would step up and respond, so thanks Igor.

Wow! Did not realise an idea to try help gamblers would be taken on such a hostile level. It might in your opinion not be a good plan, but who cares if I was a gambling addict. Seriously. Whats with the personal attack. Just say you dont like the idea.

And I never said I would be asking you to trust me with your money. You would have lost the money. It would no longer be your money. If you gambled it and lost it, that would then be the casino's money. I am just asking my clients to trust I have worked a way that they can get it back by investing it. I could just open a normal casino and in a years time contact all my clients and say, "Surprise, here are all your losses back". Hmmm.... would save me having to prove my motives are 100% on the up and up.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Well, that was a fun morning read. Seems like Andrew has found a unique way to handle his gambling addiction, just use other peoples money!

Whose money do other casino's use then to run their business? Again the personal attack. Very strange coming from other gamblers!

 

[dionysus]

One, I've no clue where I ever made a personal attack toward you. YOU said you had the gambling problem. And how, exactly, is encouraging gamblers, HELPING gamblers?

Secondly, I'm not hostile toward you, I don't know you from Adam. That's rather the point. YOU came soliciting feedback and selling the guaranteed win promise.

 

[dionysus]

Whose money do other casino's use then to run their business? Again the personal attack. Very strange coming from other gamblers!

You're going to need tougher skin - you solicited and invited the feedback. Players who (if) invest in you, you think they won't be asking tougher questions?
And it's a fair comment - you are gambling those funds.

 

[Igor82]

Andrew, there is nothing hostile about the response.

You have to understand (which as a gambler you should already understand) that no one looks at gambling as a way to LOSE money. We all hope for a win and when those rare amazing wins do happen, that feeling is what fuels the rest of the time when we simply burn our deposit to a crisp and someone else has an amazing moment.

The question every gambler will always have is "if i do win, can i feel comfortable that my win will be paid, paid swiftly and without trouble?"

In order for a gambler to have a positive answer to that question, they need to be able to trust the operation they are gambling with. Your "you cannot lose" approach is contradictory to the nature of gambling to begin with. Not to mention that now you say, once you lose the money, you lost it - so it's not really losses free.

Secondly, in order to return those losses your business would have to:

1. pay all the winners
2. pay all the costs of business
3. invest the losses to such an extent that it pays for 1 and 2, pays itself and leave a profit.

I'm sorry friend, i'm typing this and giggling. I wish it was that easy, but reality is, no genine investment fund will ever be able to sustain such a massive return on investment in any market unless they found a cure for baldness and are keeping quiet about it, which makes your "cannot lose" pitch false advertising actually and now you move into a realm of misleading the audience or as Nifty put it "selling snake oil".

What concerns me is that above logic is "slap in the face" apparent to the 1 year economics student, so that begs a very serious question - which accredited investment hedge fund actually said yes to this idea? Name them here please, so if my money is in any way connected to them, i'll be sure to pull it out immediately.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

After reading the first numbers of assumed profit margins (90% / 12%) i just closed the thread. Notifications made me read a bit more and i caught above:

here's simple maths:

all the winners on a casino - (minus) all the losers on a casino will give you approximately 3-4% gross profit on all of their accumulated bets, translating to anywhere between 25-40% of all accumulated deposits. Assuming a fair business model.

that 25-40% of deposits are your "losses" which also pay for everything to do with your business, including 10-20% on game providers (depending on which), 2-10% on payment methods (again, depending on which), staff, salaries, marketing etc etc etc

This already leaves you with a small but reasonable net profit from all of the deposited funds at your casino, inclusive of the ones that came from winning players.

Your business model assumes that all your "earned" losses are given into an investment fund, meaning that you have no access to them, so here are my questions:

1. What pays your winners? (EDIT: + salaries, game providers, and all other costs needed to keep you operational) As in, what manages your cash flow if all your earnings are locked for a year? You have to have an immense, and i do mean immense, backing to completely eradicate the need to churn the money.

2. Taking the massive white elephant "IF" of number 1 aside, here is the next pickle: If your investment fund yields anything, then the guaranteed investments wont surpass more than 3-4% annual yield. Anything more than that and you are moving into the realm of non-guaranteed investments - meaning you can easily LOSE money. To reach 12%+ yield, you have to be investing into highly volatile, high-risk markets which begs the same question as number 1, extended. Where are you paying your winners from in year 1, and how are you mitigating the risk on lost investments in year 2+?

the maths are not adding up.

As my Financial Director would say to me on many of my "next big thing" propositions: "Igor, i can drive a truck through this. Do it again".

Good luck

Thank you for you input. The concept has been researched and been put through a feasability study for the past year using the developers software and game platforms. The previous statement about 12% was to illustrate that our ratio is based on making a small amount from a larger pool.

Anyhow, I really just wanted to bounce my idea of a forum for gamblers but I seem to have got on the wrong side of most people so far.

Sorry I did not know that sharing my idea was Shilling (actually not sure what that is yet).

 

[Igor82]

Your post isnt actually shilling.

Shilling is to represent yourself as an unbiased party and advertise a business as "great". Like me saying hi i'm igor, i'm a hard core gambler and i just tried this BETAT casino which is amazing. Now i just shilled, because as my signature states, i have a vested interest in the success of the casino and i shouldn't pretend otherwise.

You didn't Shill. You simply put your idea forward and that is commendable. I personally have an issue with believing the "cannot lose" concept and i've given my views why. As for "tried and tested" feasibly study on above - i just cant buy that. All my years of world economics, investments, business, study - everything i've ever learned about how economies of scale work is screaming "bull" but that is not to say ground breaking things have not happened before and will not happen again.

So if you sincerely believe your idea is fool proof and will and can work without difficulty, then i tip my hat to you old chap and good luck!

 

[bigjohn]

Andrew, seriously, you should have done some research on how this site operates before posting here.

Posters claiming they have ways where gamblers 'can't lose' or seeking investors typically get cut to ribbons by the membership here and usually end up getting banned. You came here seeking feedback and I believe you got it. Players here are unlikely to trust you since you are an unknown factor with an unproven method using dubious factors to determine how a players money will be 'invested'.

Another thing is when players want to gamble it means they want to gamble, not play a system with a controlled outcome. If they want to invest they will invest.

I think you seriously underestimated the membership here. You can come here with an idea you think is great but it will be scrutinized. Perhaps you could have laid out your system first then asked members what they thought of it and if they could find any weaknesses or loopholes but to tell the membership, "you can't lose" is a guaranteed no-starter.

It also might have been a good idea to run it by the admins. here first, which you would have known if you researched this site first.

 

[dionysus]

at its worst, to shill means to dupe someone into buying or using a product, usually a 3rd party or someone associated with said product or service
at best, it's selling/promoting your ideas or wares


edit: Igor beat me to it

 

[AndrewSpruit]

You're going to need tougher skin - you solicited and invited the feedback. Players who (if) invest in you, you think they won't be asking tougher questions?
And it's a fair comment - you are gambling those funds.

I dont have an issue with my Gambling Addiction status. Its just all the post refering to it is like I have leprosy. Its something about me I share and dont really care if people know. Just dont define everything I do by that status. If my idea is good or bad thats all that matters.

Opening a helpline for gamblers is not going to make a difference. Investing gamblers money for future benefits will. I have nothing against gambling except that the chances of it improving someones life is minimal. There are far more people negatively affected by gambling than there are those that have won life changing amounts. I am just trying to change a negative into a positive.

Gamble as much as you want, just do it clever. Cant see whats wrong with that even as a Gambling Addict.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Andrew, seriously, you should have done some research on how this site operates before posting here.

Posters claiming they have ways where gamblers 'can't lose' or seeking investors typically get cut to ribbons by the membership here and usually end up getting banned. You came here seeking feedback and I believe you got it. Players here are unlikely to trust you since you are an unknown factor with an unproven method using dubious factors to determine how a players money will be 'invested'.

Another thing is when players want to gamble it means they want to gamble, not play a system with a controlled outcome. If they want to invest they will invest.

I think you seriously underestimated the membership here. You can come here with an idea you think is great but it will be scrutinized. Perhaps you could have laid out your system first then asked members what they thought of it and if they could find any weaknesses or loopholes but to tell the membership, "you can't lose" is a guaranteed no-starter.

It also might have been a good idea to run it by the admins. here first, which you would have known if you researched this site first.

I did send through a request to webmaster a while ago.

 

[dionysus]

*shrugs shoulders*..I have no problem with your gambling history, in fact, that you acknowledge it is great As I said, you introduced it (twice in fact).
But you're coming to introduce not only your idea, but for us to come play at your casino. If these questions bother you, you're in for a world of hurt once you launch because every element of the casino will be scrutinized.

 

[Igor82]

Well you mis-conceptualise the meaning of a Gambling Addict for one which is borderline offensive. Either that, or as the rest of my post will explain - you know it all-too-well.

Gambling Addict has a serious problem and all members of this forum will strongly promote quitting it altogether. A Gambling Addict will not perceive gaming as fun, a hobby, an adrenaline rush, a pastime with a chance to win... they will stake their livelihood on it time and time again.

Now as i type this I'm actually getting more concerned. A Gambling Addict will more than anyone else believe any kind of bull that can justify their addiction. A business that allows them to say "well i'm not risking it actually, i'll get it all back from this site" is preying on their addiction and lack of reasoning more than any other business I know.

There is very little chance that you can in fact guarantee the losses back, and far bigger probability that whether you genuinely realise your business is flawed and go bust or maliciously prey on taking as much as possible as soon as possible - a time will come when all those addicts that allowed themselves to believe they weren't actually risking their money will come to a chilling wake up call.

More I think about it, more your business model is in fact oriented toward the gambler that cannot rationalise the probable from improbable and will grapple at any straw that allows them to feel OK with their problem. It's more plausible that the addicts are in fact the ones that will believe this without dissecting it as the members here did.

Id be really keen to find out who regulates your business, if anyone.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Sorry! I did not realise I had Shilled

Sorry everyone, I did not realise I had overstepped the mark in the way I approached this. I was nervous to share to much info upfront which if I read now explains why I am getting so much flack.

Honestly, I just wanted to share my idea with other gamblers. I did not want anything from you guys. I am not asking anyone to invest in my idea. I did not want to even give the name of the Casino but you guys found it via facebook. Duh... didnt think that one through.

I appreciate all comments good and bad. Please believe me when I say this entire concept is with good intention.

I wasnt gamblers to play in a casino that takes the money they lose and put it into something I can make some money on and then give the initial losses back to the player.

It is really that simple. I am not trying to scam anyone. I think i am feeling defensive because I am trying to do the exact opposite.

I want to take my life experience and use it to make other peoples lives better.

If anyone has another idea on how to format my plan that would be great.

 

[Igor82]

If anyone has another idea on how to format my plan that would be great.

Running through your figures again and justifying how can you achieve a 175% return on your investments in under a year, by using regulated hedge funds might be a good start.

 

[dionysus]

See, that's good Just come in, say here's what I got, do you think it will fly?
The forum isn't just a bunch of gamblers pissing away their paycheques - there's recreational and smart gamblers, casino reps, managers and owners, people with their OWN forums - everyone is watching. And there's a HUGE fount of information here to tap.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Well you mis-conceptualise the meaning of a Gambling Addict for one which is borderline offensive. Either that, or as the rest of my post will explain - you know it all-too-well.

Gambling Addict has a serious problem and all members of this forum will strongly promote quitting it altogether. A Gambling Addict will not perceive gaming as fun, a hobby, an adrenaline rush, a pastime with a chance to win... they will stake their livelihood on it time and time again.

Now as i type this I'm actually getting more concerned. A Gambling Addict will more than anyone else believe any kind of bull that can justify their addiction. A business that allows them to say "well i'm not risking it actually, i'll get it all back from this site" is preying on their addiction and lack of reasoning more than any other business I know.

There is very little chance that you can in fact guarantee the losses back, and far bigger probability that whether you genuinely realise your business is flawed and go bust or maliciously prey on taking as much as possible as soon as possible - a time will come when all those addicts that allowed themselves to believe they weren't actually risking their money will come to a chilling wake up call.

More I think about it, more your business model is in fact oriented toward the gambler that cannot rationalise the probable from improbable and will grapple at any straw that allows them to feel OK with their problem. It's more plausible that the addicts are in fact the ones that will believe this without dissecting it as the members here did.

Id be really keen to find out who regulates your business, if anyone.

Sorry but you are approaching this as though I have worked out this devious plan to target a group of people to benefit myself. You are very very wrong. My goal is the exact opposite.

Again, your reference to gambling addiction above is based on the fact that I am one. If i were not a gambling addict would your comments be different.

Be honest, all casino's marketing is aimed getting people to play including gambling addicts. Never once has a casino said, oops sorry Andrew we think you depositing to much and we concerned you have a problem. I find it strange that a casino authority is enlightening me on the morals of gambling. Now thats a giggle sorry!

My concept is no different to casino's offering free chips or accumulated bonus points. If what you highlighted above is true then these concepts are also aimed to deceive Gambling Addicts to not worry once they have lost because they getting something back - of course not mentioned with 99x Multiplier playthoughts and maximum withdraw limits. And once i have lost everything and go to the chat room, the first thing the operator says is, "let me offer you this awesome bonus on your next deposit!!!!" I just cant understand how all these above melicious marketing tools are regarded as acceptable but my plan to try help gamblers by investing money for them is this major deceitful ploy?

If you looking at devious marketing rather look at casino's that spam emails to gambling addicts about the huge bonuses they will get only to wake to the chilling reality that with massive multipliers and playthroughs and withdraw limits they have been duped by sinister marketing.

Once the money is in the investment I cannot touch it. The casino could fold, but the client will still get there investment back. Obviously there are risks to investing but we have professional investors working with that. And again, it is money that in any other casino would never come back and would be lost forever. What extra risk is the player really exposed to. If the dont want to deposit in our casino and prefer to lose it elsewhere and its gone forever, that is up to them. They will then still have no money to risk not losing - if you get my meaning.

I have my financials worked out and it has been approved by actuaries. I am sorry but I do not know you but once we have launched the casino you will see the Investment Company accrediting the site. I will be happy at that point to also send you the full business plan so you can see how we worked out all our costs. I can also send you the 7 financial reports on some of the bigger casino names that show their annual payout in winnings to clients being less that 7.5%. We have done extensive research on this I promise. This is not just a flash in the pan idea I came up with yesterday

Thank you again for all you input.

 

[dionysus]

I'm still curious as to which software youll be using

 

[randomiam]

wow not one question i asked answered

hmm i would of expected just one answer even software plan had plenty of time to respond ignored my decent questions

 

[gpitileac]

Tried to limit my self on reading only

Hi , Andrew

Since "your idea " is so good , i assume you have some investors putting money since you will be new , you need some flow at the beginning to pay the winnings right?

My question is , Why is that you made the website of the "company" using a free website tool ? Also , you should get a licensee and what jurisdiction will approve this idea ?

PS. As many members from here who are working in this field , As you mentioned above that no casino will stop a gambling addicted in playing more and more , you are totally wrong .

A casino ( it's team ) cannot distinguishes a High roller / normal player from a gambling addict , until that player is informing the Casino about his problem and they found solutions ( either limit the play , or immediate closing of the account ) .


Sorry for barging in .


All the best

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Running through your figures again and justifying how can you achieve a 175% return on your investments in under a year, by using regulated hedge funds might be a good start.

Thanks. I must be honest, my little knowledge of how the investment world works meant i am trusting my Investment associates. I know we are using 3 levels of investments. I can not tell you now who our Investment Partner is but they up there with Merrill Lynch, Corontation, Ashburton. They are also using an assit managment company. I do remember HedgeFund being mentioned in meetings but i have full faith in them knowing what they doing. I will ask them about your post.

 

[rockycatt]

something of the lines of a reverse mortgage of sorts

im sure there will be terms and conditions

 

[dionysus]

Thanks. I must be honest, my little knowledge of how the investment world works meant i am trusting my Investment associates. I know we are using 3 levels of investments. I can not tell you now who our Investment Partner is but they up there with Merrill Lynch, Corontation, Ashburton. They are also using an assit managment company. I do remember HedgeFund being mentioned in meetings but i have full faith in them knowing what they doing. I will ask them about your post.

Um, no offense, but shouldn't you have these answers? Are you the company owner or employee?

 

[rockycatt]

I'm still curious as to which software youll be using

migt be coin flipper soft ware

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Hi , Andrew

Since "your idea " is so good , i assume you have some investors putting money since you will be new , you need some flow at the beginning to pay the winnings right?

My question is , Why is that you made the website of the "company" using a free website tool ? Also , you should get a licensee and what jurisdiction will approve this idea ?

PS. As many members from here who are working in this field , As you mentioned above that no casino will stop a gambling addicted in playing more and more , you are totally wrong .

A casino ( it's team ) cannot distinguishes a High roller / normal player from a gambling addict , until that player is informing the Casino about his problem and they found solutions ( either limit the play , or immediate closing of the account ) .


Sorry for barging in .


All the best

Thanks. I must be honest that I did not actually want anyone to go to the site or facebook page yet. I forgot its linked to my personal facebook page. When I was looking for funding I came across a concept called CrowdFunding. I was trying an experiment over the New Year and using a Free Wix Site was a quick way to design a site. I actually only put that together yesterday and it was to see if I could build a community of small investors to share in the concept. Me and my wealth sharing concept. I am a true believer that there should be enough to go around for everyone. I would rather have everyone has something than one or two have everything and everyone else has to scratch to survive.

I have 1 large investor who will be putting up the funds in the next few days. I was just looking at other options before it became concrete.

Just on the gambling addiction comment, I am just saying that I am being questioned on my motives because i am a Gambling Addict. I understand unless a player confesses to the problem it would be difficult for a casino to note. However, that will be the exact same for our casino. We will be targeting a general market of gamblers. Bonus is that if there are undetected addicts (which every casino will have) their addiction will not be promoted but the funds will be going to a better use. I believe our clients will be less likely to be gambling addicts. An addict wants to take his Rent money and turn it into profit right now, instant. If we have clients coming afterwards begging us to payout their investments right after they have lost the money we will realise there is a problem and we will request the client closes the account. Their investment will still be good but we will not take any futher deposits from them. Our clients will understand that if they lose their money, it will be going into a responsible long term money saving.

 

[Igor82]

Sorry but you are approaching this as though I have worked out this devious plan to target a group of people to benefit myself. You are very very wrong. My goal is the exact opposite.

Again, your reference to gambling addiction above is based on the fact that I am one. If i were not a gambling addict would your comments be different.

That isn't correct. Seeing Gambling Addicts being talked about and knowing a thing or two about them, i drew the connection to the obvious:

1) You need to show how do you return a 175% return at bare minimum though regulated markets. Without that, your "risk free" sales pitch is snake oil; and

2) Only someone that is a state of desperation will not try to poke a hole or two in a business model that is so apparently unsafe. Now that we speak of addicts, i can imagine an addict using your risk free sales pitch to justify further gambling to himself.

In order to really help, then you must show WHERE the money is being invested, WHAT kind of yield is it returning and WHO guarantees it.

You see, while you may look at this as "you lost your money anyway, now if i make my returns and give it back, i'm simply doing a good deed" the reality is that you are using a PROMISE of return to SELL your product in the first place. Unless you can contractually GUARANTEE that return, backed by a bank or a known investment fund/insurance that is willing to back your claim, you are in fact selling empty promises that will most likely prey on the most desperate to believe them.

Let's get that fact out of the way first.

Be honest, all casino's marketing is aimed getting people to play including gambling addicts. Never once has a casino said, oops sorry Andrew we think you depositing to much and we concerned you have a problem. I find it strange that a casino authority is enlightening me on the morals of gambling. Now thats a giggle sorry!

Actually, you are wrong. Not only regulatorily is it necessary to employ a "reality-check" on a casino but i know quote a few, mine inclusive that has systems that point out rapid loss patterns. And this isn't out of goodness of heart - it is more worthy to keep the customer in a sate of reasonable gameplay and have them play for a long period of time, then have them lose their savings at a go, exclude and exit devestated.

It is not only morally correct, it is also good business!

My concept is no different to casino's offering free chips or accumulated bonus points. If what you highlighted above is true then these concepts are also aimed to deceive Gambling Addicts to not worry once they have lost because they getting something back - of course not mentioned with 99x Multiplier playthoughts and maximum withdraw limits. And once i have lost everything and go to the chat room, the first thing the operator says is, "let me offer you this awesome bonus on your next deposit!!!!" I just cant understand how all these above melicious marketing tools are regarded as acceptable but my plan to try help gamblers by investing money for them is this major deceitful ploy?

also an exaggeration and untrue. Bonus monies are given upfront in most cases and while they do carry terms, a fair business will make those prominent and clear. Only someone aimed at selling snake oil will compare theior model to another model using unsavoury tactics to acquire customers.

While casinos offer bonuses as added play time with a CHANCE to win after completing conditions, you are GUARANTEEING losses back and advertising risk free bets. Two wildly different things.

If you looking at devious marketing rather look at casino's that spam emails to gambling addicts about the huge bonuses they will get only to wake to the chilling reality that with massive multipliers and playthroughs and withdraw limits they have been duped by sinister marketing.

again you use examples of rogue behaviour to justify your own pitch. Why do you feel you need to resort to that?

Once the money is in the investment I cannot touch it. The casino could fold, but the client will still get there investment back.

Therein lies the problem. Let's say you invest only at months end after the profit and loss has been accounted.

Let's say you receive 1,000,000 in deposits; and pay out 700,000 in winnings - keeping a modest 30% casino hold. Let's just say for the sake of the argument, you didn't lock in all the deposits into the investment fund.

The following questions come to mind:

If i deposit 500 and lose, then deposit 500 and win 1000, then deposit 500 and lose, then deposit 500 and win 700:

does this mean that my 1000 of lost deposits is guaranteed, while my 1700 in winnings are clear to keep? Or does it mean that only my difference is guaranteed? If latter, on what span of time? what if im a loser on one month and get my "investment locked" but win next month - doe that annul my investment?

When does the money get invested and from what "pot"? The difference, the deposits, the loses of deposits or total losses in general over a span of time?

Considering above changes the amount invested by choosing any of the options, it means that returns will also change. From the core player perspective, it matters.

Onward,

lets say we have an answer to above. My money is now invested and guaranteed. What is guaranteed i still don't know but lets say it my net loss for each month - as that would be most plausible for your business. I get every monthly loss back 12 months later? every player gets that?

Ok, if that is so, your business has no income. At all. In that case, you are taking the 300,000 of gross take and locking it in, which means you are playing your suppliers and all other costs from your pocket. While also floating any winner of the next month that won before the losses accumulated sufficiently enough to float his win.

you effectively HAVE NO INCOME for 12 months.

Only your first month gets invested and you see it 12 months later so that first year is a gigantic loss, not considering months or big winners and a multitude of other variables.

If an investment fund actually thought this through and APPROVED it as you say, then it is run by my long lost distant African uncle who's lawyer just emailed me because he just happened to leave me 12 million. If i give my bank account detials to the lawyer and just 2 out of the 12 million - i'll be sitting on a pretty sum of 10 mil this time tomorrow.

yeah right.

Sorry, but above are some very real questions that contradict any rule of any business in existence of human kind. NO BUSINESS be it medicine or gambling will survive without income. And if Donald Trump floated you himself, and all those really good questions as to what, how, when and how much were answered, the yield required to pay back the losses and suppliers, interests and taxations, regulatory costs and marketing would be the the best investment known to man.

Pretty much investing in apple in 1976 and getting them to today's stock price by 1977.

I wish to say i don't mean to be harsh, but I do. What you sell is a fallacy and needs some serious answering thought fact if you aim to promote this as a valid business. Preying on blind desperation is wrong - and lack of information posted about your business seems to be doing just that.

Obviously there are risks to investing but we have professional investors working with that. And again, it is money that in any other casino would never come back and would be lost forever. What extra risk is the player really exposed to. If the dont want to deposit in our casino and prefer to lose it elsewhere and its gone forever, that is up to them. They will then still have no money to risk not losing - if you get my meaning.

I have my financials worked out and it has been approved by actuaries. I am sorry but I do not know you but once we have launched the casino you will see the Investment Company accrediting the site. I will be happy at that point to also send you the full business plan so you can see how we worked out all our costs. I can also send you the 7 financial reports on some of the bigger casino names that show their annual payout in winnings to clients being less that 7.5%. We have done extensive research on this I promise. This is not just a flash in the pan idea I came up with yesterday

Thank you again for all you input.

Well, i suggest you proceed with your launch and get the financial think thank to answer some of the harder questions that regulatory body's should and i really really hope do ask. Also keep in mind that by asking me to purchase your product i am having a GUARANTEED payback to my investment, you also need to be regulated by a financial institution besides a gambling regulator since that is what you are doing - selling investments. Offering risk free gambling isn't "gambling" to begin with.

Why not just advertise the highest investment yield in recorded history and get people to give you money for a 12 month return to begin with?

Driving a truck through this now sounds like trying to park a mini-miner in an air plane hangar. Not buying it.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Um, no offense, but shouldn't you have these answers? Are you the company owner or employee?

He he... you mean like Richard Brandson flies his own airplanes.

I came up with the concept, the invesment company, auditors and actuaries work out the figures. You get the right professionals to do the job, you more likely to get it right.

I am a graphic designer - I can draw you a pretty picture of an airplane

 

[Igor82]

He he... you mean like Richard Brandson flies his own airplanes.

Rolling on the floor laughing - literally. I assure you Richard Branson knows how much his airplanes will return against their investment cost and by when.

Nobody is asking you how you deal with fraud or how a slot works. Question is: what new never-before-seen product have you invented that can justify free money give-aways in the 100s of thousands.

 

[AndrewSpruit]

hmm i would of expected just one answer even software plan had plenty of time to respond ignored my decent questions

Oops.. really sorry.. I am struggling to keep up. Being asked lots of questions.......

Going back to read your post again:

 

[AndrewSpruit]

Rolling on the floor laughing - literally. I assure you Richard Branson knows how much his airplanes will return against their investment cost and by when.

Nobody is asking you how you deal with fraud or how a slot works. Question is: what new never-before-seen product have you invented that can justify free money give-aways in the 100s of thousands.

I was asked if I am and employee or owner because I need professionals to help me do the Financials. As quoted by Richard Branson - He owns the planes even though he does not know how to fly them.

I think I am losing the thread of our chat. Still going through last long one

 

[incrediblestuff]

Well if anything, i like the concept, i did not visit your FB page or site, but disregarding the likelihood of you pulling this off, i really think it's a worthwhile venture for a company to pursue.

So i will be following this thread, hopefully there will be some updates in the near future with good news on your behalf.
As soon as your up and running, if at all, i would surely make a small deposit to try out the water.

Good luck, i hope you pull it off!

 

[maxd]

Its coming! A totally new way of gambling that will change how people gamble online. This is a casino that is designed to better gamblers lives. You can never lose!

My guess is that you've neither asked nor received permission to spam our forums with this promotional hype. Assuming you have not I am suspending your account for Forum Rules violations. If you'd like your account reactivated please contact me or the site owner to explain your behaviour.

 

[dunover]

This brings a new dimension to snake-oil schemes. Unless you have permission from your government to print and issue currency, it is simply an outrageous claim. I thought it was 1st. January yesterday, not 1st. April. In fact, you are being awarded so many foil hats that I simply cannot afford the freight fees to FedEx them to you.

As I simply can't be arsed in heaping suitable adjectives on this nonsense, a picture will suffice:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[bigjohn]

Next....

 

[maxd]

@ Mr Spruit (the OP) : I now see that in post #64 you say you did ask permission, which is good, but you don't say whether you got it. This leads to suspect that you did not but went ahead and posted anyway. Not a good way to approach our forums ... at all! We run a fairly tight ship here and don't appreciate people who can't be bothered to read our Forum Rules. It seems you did not and again, not good.

As to shilling I was of the opinion that you did exactly that:

a person whose praises, endorsements, etc., are motivated by self-interest.

In other words beginning your post with "OMG! You can't lose!" -- I'm paraphrasing -- got you into hot water from the get-go. Most of us have been around the scene for a good while and have heard more BS schemes that you can imagine. Not too put too fine a point on it but it's a blight on our industry and we have a very low tolerance for it.

That said I think I see now that you may be genuinely trying to make a go of this so I'm going to repeal your ban and reinstate you under the assumption that you'll have no objections if I change your thread title to something less ... shilly. For context the original thread title will be preserved in your opening post.

Good luck.

 

[Alexandre]

Oh Max you are such a party pooper.
We were having fun here.

 

[The Dude]

Your post isnt actually shilling...

It's more like exploiting the forum for his own marketing devices.

I had to dig through my emails - found this one that came in when I was on Thanksgiving break:

Dear Casinomeister

It’s true. I am working on a Gaming concept that guarantees its players that they cannot lose their wagering money. NO CATCH. NO RIDICULOUS PLAYTHROUGH WAGERING REQUIREMENTS.

IF YOU PLAY AND LOSE YOU GET YOUR MONEY BACK!

We will be the first online Casino in the world that honestly practices Fair Gaming and both Casino and Players will benefit from the site.

I am an ex gambler and spent years in casinos losing both online and land based.

Basically I was Sick of Losing and that gave birth to a Light Bulb.

We are about 3 months from launching our website. I would like to know what the rules stipulate for me discussing this concept on your forum.

Due to confidentiality of the concept I am happy to share the concept with your company but will not share information on how the concept operates.

Thank you

I must have gotten through the first two lines before concluding that the poorly written email was spam. Please note that he only asked to know the rules for posting. In other words he was too lazy to look for them himself.

1.11 - Please do not exploit this board to promote your own personal agenda. If the moderators (and members) feel that you are spamming the board with links or ad copy to your website, harassing members with agenda laden posts, or consistently ragging on a casino that did you wrong, etc., your account may be suspended.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

i-Gaming reps will at all times conduct themselves in a professional manner. Your presence here is to provide players and affiliates with information, and to assist our members when need be. Your account will be closed if you attack other's businesses, exploit the board for marketing purposes, poach players - or any other conduct the staff deems unbecoming of an i-Gaming representative.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum-faq/forum-policies/

Your first post:

Its coming! A totally new way of gambling that will change how people gamble online. This is a casino that is designed to better gamblers lives. You can never lose!

WTF was that? Baiting players with "You can never lose!"? Try making a claim like that in a strictly regulated country and you'll be thrown in jail.

My advice for you is invest the time, effort, blood, sweat and tears it takes to create you own website and gambler community - like I did - and then bore them with your nonsense. You are not welcome to do this here. Bye.

Good luck with the Facebook approach.

 

[bigjohn]

Personally, I think this should be categorized more as, "An investment that feels like gambling" and could be marketed on a site which deals with investments. At any rate, it needs more homework.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Despite the tip off, Googling "gamevesta" only returns some kids free games site, and his name only brings up three hits on Facebook, none of which look like this chap.

Either there is something wrong with both Google and Facebook, or this chap has gone on a rapid clean up spree straight after finding out he had been "outed".

If he has really found an investment manager capable of achieving the required return, guaranteed, I am sure it would be of great interest to every saver, not just us gamblers. It would also be widely advertised. The facts (he claims) that it exists, is backed by a "big name" investment company, yet not advertised, suggest that the scheme has failed the approval process of the regulatory authorities, and is not legal to offer to the general public.

Come next month, we should see some striking press release coverage of this unique offering, or more likely, a deathly silence that will only confirm that the whole idea was a fantasy.

 

[swampwitch]

Despite the tip off, Googling "gamevesta" only returns some kids free games site, and his name only brings up three hits on Facebook, none of which look like this chap.

Either there is something wrong with both Google and Facebook, or this chap has gone on a rapid clean up spree straight after finding out he had been "outed".

If he has really found an investment manager capable of achieving the required return, guaranteed, I am sure it would be of great interest to every saver, not just us gamblers. It would also be widely advertised. The facts (he claims) that it exists, is backed by a "big name" investment company, yet not advertised, suggest that the scheme has failed the approval process of the regulatory authorities, and is not legal to offer to the general public.

Come next month, we should see some striking press release coverage of this unique offering, or more likely, a deathly silence that will only confirm that the whole idea was a fantasy.

Here he is...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And here it is...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Here he is...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

And here it is...

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I see the problem. He DID come up on Facebook search, but only his profile picture showed, and the fact that he "studied at Rudolphs". Google failed completely to bring his gamevesta site up as a result, in fact, it only gave me "B grade" hits that were "game vesta", or even just one of these terms, in the top 10 hits.

I can now have a good look (and maybe a chuckle ).

 

[The Dude]

he's got a snake for a profile pict!

 

[Tirilej]

I saw a link on his Facebook profile to this thread

I wonder how many new investors he will reach with that kind of advertising

 

[vinylweatherman]

he's got a snake for a profile pict!

He has indeed

There is so little information on any of his sites, and despite only going online YESTERDAY, he is hoping to sell all 200,000 units, 100,000 through crowd funding, and be fully operational some time in February. Even a casino using tried and tested methods can't go from initial prospectus to fully operational in this timescale. Unless he has gained full pre approval from the relevant regulators, he CANNOT gain the necessary permissions and licenses in such a short timescale unless he operates from a country that will just let him buy a license without having to go through any kind of review and approval process. His investment scheme will also have to operate from an unregulated offshore jurisdiction to be running in time for the losses that need investing by 1st March 2014.

I suspect that his investment scheme will have to be as opaque and convoluted as the debt products that convinced the brightest minds in merchant banking that they too were on to a "no lose" situation, and so bought up every debt product they could until the whole global financial system drowned in snake oil and almost collapsed. Even these schemes promised anything remotely close to the required 175% return per annum required to make gamevesta viable.

The best that can be achieved is the CHANCE of the return of SOME of the losses, and the amount received would depend on the markets as a whole, and the performance of the fund managers overseeing the scheme. There is no "guarantee" of anything. In a worst case scenario the fund could even get wiped out completely, returning nothing at all to investors.

Perhaps Andrew has found some highly skilled professionals willing to work for nothing up front, and for years, expecting that they MIGHT be paid at the end if these is anything left over after all the losing players have had their losses returned at the end of 12 months.

The ONLY schemes that have achieved anything like this are the Ponzi schemes, and then only to the first comers, with the later arrivals ending up getting screwed.

 

[tryme]

That website is on a free host!?!

I don't really think I need to say anything more.

 

[skiny]

Seems to me the OP has been pretty much ignore Igor's posts (and questions.) More than likely because acknowledging them would require a reality check.

Here's the problem with "you can't lose." If you don't lose, someone else does. Now I understand that you don't mean you can't lose when you gamble but when money is involved an "everyone wins" situation just isn't possible whether you're gambling it or not. Every time someone makes a deposit, pays the phone bill or buys a pair of shoes that money being spent is at the end of a very long chain and every link in that chain is going to want a piece of it. In your case you presumably have licensing fees, utility bills, employees, broker fees and your own pay cheque that will inevitably have to come out of those deposits. Which means even if nobody ever wins while gambling at your casino you can still only invest a relatively small portion of your intake. Now it doesn't take a Wall Street wizard to understand that even a medium risk investment is not going to yield a high return over the course of 12 months. This leaves you with a modest return on a small portion of your player's deposits.

Mathematically, even if a person played solely at your casino the return on the small portion of his deposits that were invested would never equal the amount of the actual deposits.

Igor obviously explained this better but so far the only response I've seen you give that even remotely addresses this problem is "I have no idea how it works."

Maybe you should have asked someone before you started this thread.

 

[chayton]

I have just one comment...

Basically I was Sick of Losing and that gave birth to a Light Bulb.

That is hilarious! Ouch.