Microgaming VP doubling rigged

[TrickyNicky]

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Basically when doubling on VP at ssome updated MG casinos, if you hover your mouse at the bottom left of the screen it will show your balance...but the balance will show whether you have won or lost - BEFORE you have picked a card!! So if the software displays a five, you can see whether you will win or lose - before you even pick a card! If you have lost - you'll obviously pick a lower card, even though it will often display a higher card as having been available (but how did the software know what you were going to pick?!).
So there is no interactive element to this game, which is clearly not what they are advertising and what players expect with a game of this nature. random? definitely not..


TN

 

[winbig]

I'm sure it's still random. It's just like playing the slots. The outcome is already determined as soon as you click "spin", or in this situation, "gamble".

Hardly worth claiming it's rigged.

 

[TrickyNicky]

but this is mocked up as a card game in which the player interacts...it is different to slots IMHO.

 

[winbig]

True, but that still doesn't mean it's rigged.


And also true they should let people know the outcome is predetermined, etc...

ie: "The gamble feature is setup like flipping a coin. As soon as you click the gamble button, the coin flips and decides your fate."

 

[AussieDave]

That's a bit rich saying MG VP is rigged.

As far as I'm aware as soon as you hit the double button the RNG determines the results.

The cards, slots, whatever are just pretty graphics.

My understanding of this is that if you were to hit the double up button 1000'th of a sec later you'd achieve a different outcome, or 1000'th of a sec sooner you'd get a different outcome. Nothing rigged about that, sounds pretty random to me.

More to the point, is it rigged when you don't win & not rigged when you do...

I do however agree that they shouldn't display the outcome before the card is picked. This would lend itself to being thought as being dodgy imo. Not that I believe MG casino software is.

 

[nafanny29]

MG needs to expain how this actually works and the %.

It cant be a simple RNG 50/50 because I presume you "snap" with the dealer every now and then?

I predict this thread will get very looooonnnnnnnngggggggggg

 

[winbig]

MG needs to expain how this actually works and the %.

It cant be a simple RNG 50/50 because I presume you "snap" with the dealer every now and then?

I predict this thread will get very looooonnnnnnnngggggggggg

You're right. I was thinking about the gamble on slots where it's a red/black/suit choice.

This almost seems like something I saw at (I believe it was) casino770 in the flash version of their blackjack. I started a thread about it, but it never went anywhere.

It definately seemed pretty odd to me at the time, but I never even thought of it being rigged...quite a difference.

Say you're playing a flash version of BJ. Is it normal for your balance to go up after you complete play on your hand, but before the dealer even takes a card / flips the hole card over? (if you win the hand)

Seems to me the game is already decided after you finish your hand, and adjusts your balance accordingly, although prematurely.

If you ask me, it takes the suspense out of it, but at the same time, takes the enjoyment out of it.

 

[1819]

I'm sure it's still random. It's just like playing the slots. The outcome is already determined as soon as you click "spin", or in this situation, "gamble".

Hardly worth claiming it's rigged.

correct. as soon as you pick double. you've won or lost. what card you pick makes no difference. same as a land based machine. it does seem mg software uses the same cards for a loss. the ace comes up all the time. you hardley ever "lose" to an 8. lol. again though it makes no difference.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Rigged

Rigged, as the genuine double-up game is NOT 50/50, it depends on what the dealer card is, and you have to pick a higher one. While the long term outcome is not any different, the VARIANCE and DEGREE OF RISK most certainly are different to what would be expected.
Certainly, if it is true that the result is a predetermined win or lose before a card is picked it makes a complete nonsense of the recent English Harbour excuse about the replacement of an array of cards after the pick and the win test being repeated again on the new card only if the original double was won.
If it is a coin toss, MG should show it as such, we do NOT expect slot performance for a card game.
I read that Video Poker machines have to behave as though it were a real deck of cards, the MG double game in THEIR VP games seem to breach this rule. I expect the land based ones would not be alllowed to do this.

I could say that perhaps it is the same for the Blackjack then, the result is determined as soon as you press deal, and within reason, you cannot win more by playing better strategy, only lose by making boneheaded decisions like hitting on 19's and 20's!

I noticed this little quirk a while ago. I posted that one day this will catch MG out doing something with a game that was not as displayed on the screen.

Incidentally, in Blackjack, the result updates as soon as you stand, and BEFORE the dealer even starts to draw, although this is not the same as the player no longer has influence over the outcome, unlike in a case where they have to pick the right card from 5 to beat the dealer card.

What other games are not as displayed, thus making the variance different to that of a land casino played with real cards.

 

[BBKPoker]

32red claims it is a RNG.

I sent this email:

"Is the doubling feature on your video poker games a true random number
generator, or is it predetermined?

If it's predetermined, is it set to a 0% house edge, or does the doubling have a house edge as well?"

and received this response:

'Thank you for your e-mail.

We use a random number generator. Please click on the link below for
further information.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Have a good night.

Kind regards,

Emma
Player Support Shift Leader
32Red Casino| Dash Casino |32Red Poker
Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005 "

Which reassures me somewhat as 32red is quite reputable.

 

[nafanny29]

'Thank you for your e-mail.

We use a random number generator. Please click on the link below for
further information.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Have a good night.

Kind regards,

Emma
Player Support Shift Leader
32Red Casino| Dash Casino |32Red Poker
Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005 "

Which reassures me somewhat as 32red is quite reputable.

Oh well thats ok then, pwc checks everything with a fine tooth comb. Im a believer

ps I guarantee pwc doesnt know whether MG video poker double up cards are generated when a user presses "double up", before a user presses "double up" or when a user "farts very loud".

 

[TheBloke]

The doubling in MG VP is categorically not rigged.

When you click Double, the server chooses a card for the dealer and then chooses a card for the player. The higher card wins and it is all generated using the RNG and a truly random 50/50 shot as you would expect.

The game is deceptive in that it suggests that the user is actually choosing one of four cards to be compared against the dealer's. In fact whichever card he clicks on will be displayed as the already chosen player card, and the other three are never used.

This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected. It is a lie in a way, but not one that actually matters except perhaps psychologically - in the same way that some people think it matters which spot you sit at at a blackjack table, or think it matters if other BJ players make dumb decisions.

 

[Zoozie]

This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected. It is a lie in a way, but not one that actually matters except perhaps psychologically - in the same way that some people think it matters which spot you sit at at a blackjack table, or think it matters if other BJ players make dumb decisions.

Correct, it actually does not matter for the player. But it is deceptive which
I do not like. And using card games when it actually is not a card game is
very poor gambling business ethics, and it is illegal in same cases, but probably
not here unfortunately.
I am still disappointed over MG in this.

 

[Zoozie]

I still find it funny MGs preview picture for 4-line Dueces wild (also a few other games) is obviously rigged. I did contact 32Red a year ago and they said they would contact MG, but it is not fixed yet.

Zoozie

 

[Vesuvio]

This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected.

It might make the game quicker, but the average player simply wastes time selecting a card when in fact he no longer has any influence over the result.

I agree with the general opinion that it's probably deception rather than rigging, but if you're treating card games as (correctly weighted) slots, and only then displaying cards to make them look normal, you'd only have to alter one variable to rig the game. It also suggests the enduring perception of players that MG card games seem to give the correct long-term payout but behave unnaturally might have a basis in fact.

In any case it's yet more evidence that players should be very wary of on-line casino software. It follows that:

1) Audits (whether by PWC or eCOGRA) are close to worthless if they don't get qualified people to examine the way the software operates, rather than just the results

2) In a case where a non-random game is proven (as with EH VP doubling), we can't give the casino any benefit of the doubt - zero tolerance may well be the best means of exerting at least a limited amount of pressure on the casinos to offer fair games.

 

[sal monella]

Very disturbing IMO. I've never really tried Microgaming VP doubling, but I've done some doubling on their slots, and the results seemed very fair.

But if a game is presented as a card game, it needs to function the same as if actual cards were being used, or at least include a disclaimer in the rules.

 

[TheBloke]

It does function just like a card game.

All that is false is that it appears like you can choose any of the next four cards in the deck, whereas you always get the next card in the deck.

They appear to have cut a corner in order to speed the game up. I guess they figured since it makes no difference which card you select, they may as well choose the card for you and have a VP double that runs faster than the competition. It's still a random card from a shuffled deck, so you will still win 50% of the time, so what does it matter?

I agree it was probably a stupid decision - they know how superstitious and suspicious gamblers are (casinos make a lot of money because of that), so they should have realised that if anyone ever noticed people would jump to illogical conclusions. None of their comptetitors cut that corner and are all doing fine, so it was an unnecessary step.

But it is not a cheat, and nothing like the other 'VP is rigged' stories we have seen recently.

 

[The Watchdog]

My god

This thread might be the most amazing thread I have ever read...

Just when I thought I knew crap about Video Poker, this thread showed me I actaully knew less than what I thought..

So please do me a favor and help me out.

is the following statement a fact?

On Microgaming's Video Poker when you hit double, the dealer's card and the card you are going to get are already determined when clicking double?

Meaning that regardless what card you pick you have already lost or won??

Damn that surprises me big time. I have never played video poker at Microgaming, but I do have played some at Playtech.

If the doubling feature of Playtech works like MG's I guarantee that is a better scam than MG's. At least in Playtech when you play the double feature in Jack's or Better Multiline or the regular one you get the feeling that the card you choose actually makes a difference.

This brings a lot of doubts to my mind. For example on games like Craps or Roulette.... I'll better make no further comments.

I would really like to see Playtech's and MG's explanation to this.

mmmm I don't like this at all... Is just disturbing... dunno what to think.

The chance of luck is not being provided by Video Poker then.

Regardless what you do when you hit double your fate has been set...
#@%@^ that...

Thanks to Casinomeister... if this site had never been set, I would never had learn about this.

I will take this to the Wizz to see what he has to say...

 

[Vesuvio]

is the following statement a fact?

On Microgaming's Video Poker when you hit double, the dealer's card and the card you are going to get are already determined when clicking double?

Meaning that regardless what card you pick you have already lost or won??

Yep, we don't know the exact process, but it's irrelevant which card you pick. It's probably just misleading, but it does make you wonder how many other corners Microgaming cut.

Another problem is the way the game actually works contradicts the game description in the software's on-line help:

If you win a hand in the game and want to Double, do the following:

1. Click the Double button. Five new cards are dealt, and the Dealer's card is turned face up.

2. Select any of the four remaining face down cards. All four are turned over to reveal their values and the card you selected is highlighted.

 

[Mousey]

2. Select any of the four remaining face down cards. All four are turned over to reveal their values and the card you selected is highlighted.

But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything!

And someone said this is the same way B&M games work?? Game King and IGT, or whoever makes the licensed machines?? I am really, really taken aback.

 

[TheBloke]

But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything!

Whatever card you do click on will be displayed as the already chosen card.

So, you click double. The dealer deals himself a card - let's say it's a Ten, and then it deals you a card, let's say the King of spades. It then deals three more cards.

It then displays its ten, and four face-down cards. Whichever card you click on will be displayed as the King of spades. If you clicked card one, King of Spades. Card three, king of spades. The other three cards (the ones you didnt click on) will show as the other three that were dealt, and which never made any difference.

If you don't click on anything - let's say you just closed the casino - it won't matter, because your balance will change the moment you click double, because the server already knows that the dealer has a ten and you have a king so you won in this example. The card choice is just window dressing.

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?

 

[kingkong098]

This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...


If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!

 

[Vesuvio]

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?

If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but had already tossed the coin on his own to decide if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss you watched accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?

 

[mitch]

I can't understand the fuss here.

Players must realise that they are gambling against a random number generator, no matter how the casino cares to present the game. You are not gambling against a real deck of cards!

As long as the players expectation is the same, which it is, what does it matter?

If it speeds the game up, good, I am in favour of it.

Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

Mitch

 

[Vesuvio]

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

It doesn't at MG, alas

I don't know - in turn I'm a bit suprised that people think it's fine for a casino to be wasting players' time offering an apparent choice of cards when they've already chosen for you. MG have been caught out here lying and doing something they'd never have admitted to otherwise.

Of course I'm aware there's an RNG - but with card games there's no good reason why the RNG shouldn't just be used to generate cards - then the logic of the game rules decides if I win or lose. Any deviation from that's a slippery slope. Some bright programmer might conclude there's no point wasting time transmitting data for the whole rigmarole of a game when they can just decide wins/losses/pushes in a split second and then have the software on your PC locally make up some cards - regardless of what it does to game strategy. Or decide to weight all results so they conform to the house edge over time, but have more variation in the short term... and so on.

 

[The Watchdog]

I can't understand the fuss here.
Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.
Mitch

Oh my god... I am sure you must be on a hangover... or you an expert on online casinos...

For me the whole concept is moronic. Why would you play on a double game, where picking your card is just a freaking thing made up for enjoyment?

When I pick a card, and the others show, I like to think: DAMN.. WHY DIDN'T I PICKED THE OTHER ONE?? and not to think that my fate was already set when I hit the double feature...

 

[The Watchdog]

Further more...

The whole issue kept me all night long thinking about it.

A little research has made me come up with other stuff....

Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

On the other hand... Several Playtech Casinos have Video Poker as invalid games... Would it be possible that this game is invalid due to the fact the the doulbe option in Playtech is not configured as in Microgaming?? Have you played Video Poker on Playtech and noticed how easy is to increase your balance on a lucky round of doubling in Jacks or Better??

This is a thread we're I would really like The Meister, The Wiz and people from different software developers make comments....

The whole issue has shocked me... At this moment, if I were a Microgaming regular VP player I will hold back my gaming for a sec and see what happens....

 

[1819]

This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...


If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!

can not be called rigging. its the same when you hit the spin button on a slot. 7-7-bar. people sitting there waiting for the 3rd 7 to fall when in fact the outcome has been pre determined. yes vp has a certain amount of interaction where the way you play directly affects the outcome during the hands. doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?

 

[Lifesticks]

I agree this could hardly be called rigging. Deceptive - yes, but not to the degree of the HI/LO game from Intercasino just discussed here

What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.

 

[TheBloke]

If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but just decided in his head if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?

Not a good example. Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.

If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.

Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

What are you talking about? Of course luck still plays a part. It's still a 50/50 higher-card-wins card game, as I explained earlier. Also, as stated earlier by someone, VP doubling doesn't count towards WR at any MG casino, so it has no relation to bonuses at all.

 

[TheBloke]

What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.

It has only become apparent in the last 3 months or so because of the move to EZ bonus. The casino software was updated to provide a cash/bonus display when your mouse is hovered over the balance. They must have forgotten about their short cut in VP and didn't prevent the new balance display from showing that the result had already been calculated.

 

[Vesuvio]

doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?

The point is the outcome shouldn't already be known. You're shown the dealer card and given a choice of 4 cards. It should make a difference which one you pick.

As it is the doubling is rigged at the point you get to choose (you've got 0 or a 100% chance, rather than the natural odds you could calculate based on the dealer card), though I agree that overall doubling probably still offers a 50% chance, so shouldn't have any financial implications.

 

[Vesuvio]

Not a good example.

It was a bit convoluted, I agree!

Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.

I understand the explanation, though I don't really see how you can be sure that is what happens. In any case, that's not the expected way it should operate. It should draw four cards for me and give me a choice between them.

If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.

I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway

 

[TheBloke]

I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway

I suppose it must be. I understand that no-one likes to be deceived, but this isn't any kind of malicious deception. In fact you benefit from it, because MG's double is faster than its competitors. That may not seem important now, but I bet it makes quite a difference for modem users. I played Playtech VP on a modem once and it was painful.

So it's a lie, but it's a white lie. It doesn't hurt you, and it in fact it might help you if you play on a slow connection.

I just think everyone is wasting a lot of energy getting upset about this when it doesn't actually affect them at all. At a time where the spotlight is on online gambling, we shouldn't be crying wolf. There's enough real cheating scandals out there right now, let's not distract time and attention away from them.

 

[Lifesticks]

There's enough real cheating scandals out there right now, let's not distract time and attention away from them.

Very well put

 

[nafanny29]

I find this very deceptive really. I mean the RNG has to display a dealer card, and all 4 player cards anyway, so why bother having a shortcut.

And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

I would love to know if the VP in Las Vegas works like this. I thought those machines legally had to be exactly the same as a pack of shuffled cards.

 

[winbig]

And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

Or how about the other side of it...no matter which card you choose, you lose...cause every single one was lower

 

[Zoozie]

First of all as many point out, it is not rigged and it does not change the players EV. Cheating might be the correct word, since the player definately is cheated visually.

And it is an insult to have the player pick a card when this picking game is rigged since the card you pick will be switched to the allready predetermined card, this is what I would call the definition of the word 'rigged' in an online card game.

But how far does this go and what other games is also rigged the same way. (not serious, just examples with other games over this same principle)

1.Slot doubling(also predetermined if you pick suit)?
2. When opening the roulette table, has it been determined you would loose the first 50/50 bet no matter what you bet on and then show a number to
match the predetermined outcome.? This IS actually the same situation and I am sure roulette-lovers would now realize the magnitude of this 'non-changing EV rigging'.

You can also take this to the extreme as applying the same predetermined win/loose/tie to blackjack(simple example without splits/doubling etc.) where each probablity is equal to the mathematical probability the cards would give assuming optimal strategy for the current game. So if you are pre-determined to loose, now matter how you play (non optimal) you would still loose. If you are destined to win the cards would be stacked so optimal play would win.
This game does have the same EV/variance etc, but would the BJ players fancy this? I know of course that this is not the case, but this is just
an example over the excact same principle.

So YES, if this pre-determined doubling indeed is true while still pretending to a realistic card game with unknown outcome , I find this very severe.

This also reminds me of rumours of old B&M slot machines where the win was determined first and then they would show a winning combination matching that. It does not matter (EV) if the probablities for win/win-size are correct according to the game, but it removes all the fun from slots knowing this, since
the mystery of the spinning wheels now are obsolete.

Zoozie

 

[TheBloke]

For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.

The roulette example is nonsense - it is not guaranteed that you will win, or lose, any VP double; it is randomly calculated just like any other result. The blackjack example is also wrong, and not the same principle at all. MG's VP doubling operates identically to any other VP implementation. Dealer gets a card, player gets a card, higher card wins. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH CARD THE PLAYER GETS. Nothing is determined here. You might as well argue about which hand the dealer uses to deal you your card. "Ooh, I always do better when I have a left handed dealer!" It's ridiculous.

It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.

I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.

 

[Vesuvio]

For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.

You can go through it all as many times as you like - it doesn't change the fact the card you get's predetermined before you choose a card. It shouldn't be. I can understand you think that's fine, but I don't see what you find suprising about others thinking it's not.

It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.

It doesn't behave like the real game. We've got no way of knowing if the rest works as you say it does - it should, but then doubling should also work in a way we now know it doesn't.

I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.

As far as I can you see you're getting more worked up about it than anyone else. There's no reason we can't deal with cheating casinos and also explore an issue as revealing as this one. What might come up of it? A better understanding of the way the most popular casino software actually works.

I don't really get the speed issue - anyone who's used autoplay knows it's going to make a tiny difference if the server has to be consulted once or twice. Unless the autoplay's that quick because all the MG games use similar tricks...

 

[henryVIII]

Casino's should never decieve the players. Period. This game is built on trust alone.

When they do it makes me very suspicious.

Just like with EH, you wonder why they have been fiddling with the software functioning ... to save a few milliseconds at the expense of dealing the game as they say they do.

I dont buy that personally.

Can you seriously believe that they had meetings, hired staff etc and tampered with the software codes just to make this tiny change for no real benefit to anyone other than to result in their game description being deceptive.

Just my own opinion but (hypothetically) say a casino did want to rig this feature (to hit bonus abusers a la EH or something) then wouldnt this adjustment make it easier for them to control (ie rig) the game.

They now need to configure in only one player card value as opposed to four possibles AND when the cards are revaled the player will believe he actually could have got one of the better cards.

If the game played like they say it doea then the dealers card is revealed first and the four player cards are subsequently revealed ... that would be harder to rig Id bet.

But, yes I know the drill, spend a month proving it. Just my take.

 

[The Watchdog]

The Bloke

You seem very focused on defending Microgaming´s Video Poker.

Dunno why.. I have nothing against them, only that the whole issue is just disturbing. For a lot of players who think they have some chance of luck, this is very disturbing.

The point of online casinos is to provide the best gaming experience possible, obviously Video Poker at Microgaming is not satisfying this demand.

Tell me one thing.

If you hit double, and one card shows, and you have 4 cards to pick... why the hell would you play the double feature if it doesn´t matter on which card you click if its going to be the same freaking card from the moment you choose to double???

I believe you are being very close minded about the subject on hand...

And what the hell is that on trying to bring more attention to other issues than this one???? Its a free forum.. you don´t like this thread.. go ahead and pick another...

As for me, I would really like to see some MG representative's post on this matter. Also I would like to know how Video Poker works on Crypto, Playtech and RTG...

 

[winbig]

You seem very focused on defending Microgamings Video Poker.

Dunno why.. I have nothing against them, only that the whole issue is just disturbing. For a lot of players who think they have some chance of luck, this is very disturbing.

The point of online casinos is to provide the best gaming experience possible, obviously Video Poker at Microgaming is not satisfying this demand.

Tell me one thing.

If you hit double, and one card shows, and you have 4 cards to pick... why the hell would you play the double feature if it doesnt matter on which card you click if its going to be the same freaking card from the moment you choose to double???

I believe you are being very close minded about the subject on hand...

And what the hell is that on trying to bring more attention to other issues than this one???? Its a free forum.. you dont like this thread.. go ahead and pick another...

As for me, I would really like to see some MG representative's post on this matter. Also I would like to know how Video Poker works on Crypto, Playtech and RTG...

There's very many MG players here, and maybe once MG sees that play on doubles has gone down significantly, they might get a clue.

As far as a MG rep posting about this......don't hold your breath. They'll never post here regarding this issue or any other

 

[mitch]

There must be a lot of masochists in the world!

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

If you genuinely believe that a huge operation like MG would deliberately cheat its players you would be an idiot to ever gamble online.

Software designers like to have elegant and quick solutions to problems.

This design is one such.

I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! ) runs of 10 or more.

If anyone wants to dispute that obvious fact please supply the mathematical justification for the opinion.

If no one supplies such mathematical proof (and they wont!) or proof that they have psychic powers that enable them to see which one of the 4 cards they should choose, then players must believe that MG are cheating in some way. If so see the first 3 paragraphs!

Mitch

 

[henryVIII]

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

So, you are expecting someone to spend months and a lot of $ getting 'proof' before expressing an opion.

Even if proof was presented then English harbour episode showed thats probably still not going to be enough.

To recap, they have altered the software so that (at the very least) their description of the game is deceptive. You believe they do this to shave a couple of milliseconds of the timing. For myself, I have no idea why they would do something so unusual.

However, i would assume there is a very good reason. For me personally, the one you assume seems, at the very least, a stupid thing to do ... almost illogical, given the need for transperancy and trust.

I do know that English harbour targeted the doubling up feature as well.

For reasons why they might be doing this please re-read my post above.

Bottom line is no one knows but them. I dont know and you certainly dont.

Do you still play at English Harbour mitch if you dont mind me asking?

 

[erp1]

According to eCOGRA's General accepted practises:
"The design and operation of games shall be in accordance with the following:
109.R.1.1. Game rules must be made available to the player.
109.R.1.2. Games must be operated strictly in accordance with the specified game rules".

If the double feature functions as decribed, it's obvious that the games that are operated are completely different from the specified game rules that are made available to the player.

Would be interesting to see an eCOGRA reaction?

Are eCOGRA going to remove the seals from all Microgaming casinoes?

 

[HateMG]

Originally posted by Mitch

I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! ) runs of 10 or more.

It may not make any difference over thousand hands but it just may make a difference just for the hand I'm playing or just several hands. I personally don't care about infinite number of hands, what I personally care is to make the right choice over few double ups in my session and MG is taking it from me. So to save some time for gamblers who are so in a rush to gamble away let MG substitude these 5 cards with red/black (as slots gamble feature) and it'll give you the same effect as chosing a card for you in VP.

 

[The Watchdog]

There must be a lot of masochists in the world!

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

If you genuinely believe that a huge operation like MG would deliberately cheat its players you would be an idiot to ever gamble online.

Software designers like to have elegant and quick solutions to problems.

This design is one such.


I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! ) runs of 10 or more.

If anyone wants to dispute that obvious fact please supply the mathematical justification for the opinion.

If no one supplies such mathematical proof (and they wont!) or proof that they have psychic powers that enable them to see which one of the 4 cards they should choose, then players must believe that MG are cheating in some way. If so see the first 3 paragraphs!

Mitch

I feel like I am retarded.... ok... please some one help because either all of you guys like this one is crazy, or I just have a f"%"&% birth problem.

I am not a Video Poker junkie or expert ... but here are 2 scenarios..

Scenario 1: (apparently Micrgaming´s Video Poker)

You Click on Double and Both Cards, the dealer´s and your´s is already determined. So if you Click and the House has a 7, regardless what card you pick, if you were set to get a 3, a 3 will appear.

Scenario 2: (How I believe Video Poker should be programmed)

You Click on Double: A Dealer´s card is shown. 4 other cards randomly set are facing down. You click on the card you want, and it does matter because the cards facing down are already set. So if the dealer´s card is an 8 and facind down you have ACE, Four, King, Two. It will make a difference which one you pick and the card is not chosen from the moment you clicked on double...

Is it too hard too understand?? Because I am getting very irritated with people saying that Scenario 1 is fine. I thought Video Poker worked as I explained on Scenario 2.

 

[The Watchdog]

Good Comment

Are eCOGRA going to remove the seals from all Microgaming casinoes?

But plesae.. dont get me started with eCogra... I promised not to say more personal comments about their operation. So please dont get me started

Lets see if they ever make a comment about this.. Probably in the year 2000... wait a minute.. its 2006... well then maybe in the year 3000...

 

[mitch]

Do you still play at English Harbour mitch if you dont mind me asking?

I have never played at EH or any Odds On casino and in view of the above mentioned fiasco never would.

My point is not that you cannot design cheating software obviously you can.

My point is that in this instance of software design there is no difference whatsoever to the player. However if you genuinely believe that MG have designed the software to operate in a fashion that somehow disadvantages the player then you should not play at MG casinos.

Mitch