Microgaming VP doubling rigged

TrickyNicky

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 12, 2005
Location
united kingdom
As posted here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Basically when doubling on VP at ssome updated MG casinos, if you hover your mouse at the bottom left of the screen it will show your balance...but the balance will show whether you have won or lost - BEFORE you have picked a card!! So if the software displays a five, you can see whether you will win or lose - before you even pick a card! If you have lost - you'll obviously pick a lower card, even though it will often display a higher card as having been available (but how did the software know what you were going to pick?!).
So there is no interactive element to this game, which is clearly not what they are advertising and what players expect with a game of this nature. random? definitely not..


TN
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
I'm sure it's still random. It's just like playing the slots. The outcome is already determined as soon as you click "spin", or in this situation, "gamble".

Hardly worth claiming it's rigged.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
True, but that still doesn't mean it's rigged.


And also true they should let people know the outcome is predetermined, etc...

ie: "The gamble feature is setup like flipping a coin. As soon as you click the gamble button, the coin flips and decides your fate."

:lolup:
 

AussieDave

Banned User
Joined
Dec 24, 2005
Location
Australia
That's a bit rich saying MG VP is rigged.

As far as I'm aware as soon as you hit the double button the RNG determines the results.

The cards, slots, whatever are just pretty graphics.

My understanding of this is that if you were to hit the double up button 1000'th of a sec later you'd achieve a different outcome, or 1000'th of a sec sooner you'd get a different outcome. Nothing rigged about that, sounds pretty random to me.

More to the point, is it rigged when you don't win & not rigged when you do...

I do however agree that they shouldn't display the outcome before the card is picked. This would lend itself to being thought as being dodgy imo. Not that I believe MG casino software is.
 

nafanny29

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Location
London, England
MG needs to expain how this actually works and the %.

It cant be a simple RNG 50/50 because I presume you "snap" with the dealer every now and then?

I predict this thread will get very looooonnnnnnnngggggggggg
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
nafanny29 said:
MG needs to expain how this actually works and the %.

It cant be a simple RNG 50/50 because I presume you "snap" with the dealer every now and then?

I predict this thread will get very looooonnnnnnnngggggggggg


You're right. I was thinking about the gamble on slots where it's a red/black/suit choice.

This almost seems like something I saw at (I believe it was) casino770 in the flash version of their blackjack. I started a thread about it, but it never went anywhere.

It definately seemed pretty odd to me at the time, but I never even thought of it being rigged...quite a difference.

Say you're playing a flash version of BJ. Is it normal for your balance to go up after you complete play on your hand, but before the dealer even takes a card / flips the hole card over? (if you win the hand)

Seems to me the game is already decided after you finish your hand, and adjusts your balance accordingly, although prematurely.

If you ask me, it takes the suspense out of it, but at the same time, takes the enjoyment out of it.
 

1819

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 25, 2006
Location
ny,nj,fla
winbig said:
I'm sure it's still random. It's just like playing the slots. The outcome is already determined as soon as you click "spin", or in this situation, "gamble".

Hardly worth claiming it's rigged.
correct. as soon as you pick double. you've won or lost. what card you pick makes no difference. same as a land based machine. it does seem mg software uses the same cards for a loss. the ace comes up all the time. you hardley ever "lose" to an 8. lol. again though it makes no difference.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Rigged

Rigged, as the genuine double-up game is NOT 50/50, it depends on what the dealer card is, and you have to pick a higher one. While the long term outcome is not any different, the VARIANCE and DEGREE OF RISK most certainly are different to what would be expected.
Certainly, if it is true that the result is a predetermined win or lose before a card is picked it makes a complete nonsense of the recent English Harbour excuse about the replacement of an array of cards after the pick and the win test being repeated again on the new card only if the original double was won.
If it is a coin toss, MG should show it as such, we do NOT expect slot performance for a card game.
I read that Video Poker machines have to behave as though it were a real deck of cards, the MG double game in THEIR VP games seem to breach this rule. I expect the land based ones would not be alllowed to do this.

I could say that perhaps it is the same for the Blackjack then, the result is determined as soon as you press deal, and within reason, you cannot win more by playing better strategy, only lose by making boneheaded decisions like hitting on 19's and 20's!

I noticed this little quirk a while ago. I posted that one day this will catch MG out doing something with a game that was not as displayed on the screen.

Incidentally, in Blackjack, the result updates as soon as you stand, and BEFORE the dealer even starts to draw, although this is not the same as the player no longer has influence over the outcome, unlike in a case where they have to pick the right card from 5 to beat the dealer card.

What other games are not as displayed, thus making the variance different to that of a land casino played with real cards.
 

BBKPoker

halfway to busto
PABrogue3
Joined
Dec 5, 2005
Location
Edinburgh, Seattle, Vancouver BC, Auckland
32red claims it is a RNG.

I sent this email:

"Is the doubling feature on your video poker games a true random number
generator, or is it predetermined?

If it's predetermined, is it set to a 0% house edge, or does the doubling have a house edge as well?"

and received this response:

'Thank you for your e-mail.

We use a random number generator. Please click on the link below for
further information.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Have a good night.

Kind regards,

Emma
Player Support Shift Leader
32Red Casino| Dash Casino |32Red Poker
Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005 "

Which reassures me somewhat as 32red is quite reputable.
 

nafanny29

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 8, 2004
Location
London, England
BBKPoker said:
'Thank you for your e-mail.

We use a random number generator. Please click on the link below for
further information.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Have a good night.

Kind regards,

Emma
Player Support Shift Leader
32Red Casino| Dash Casino |32Red Poker
Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005 "

Which reassures me somewhat as 32red is quite reputable.

Oh well thats ok then, pwc checks everything with a fine tooth comb. Im a believer:lolup: :lolup:

ps I guarantee pwc doesnt know whether MG video poker double up cards are generated when a user presses "double up", before a user presses "double up" or when a user "farts very loud".
 

TheBloke

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Location
London
The doubling in MG VP is categorically not rigged.

When you click Double, the server chooses a card for the dealer and then chooses a card for the player. The higher card wins and it is all generated using the RNG and a truly random 50/50 shot as you would expect.

The game is deceptive in that it suggests that the user is actually choosing one of four cards to be compared against the dealer's. In fact whichever card he clicks on will be displayed as the already chosen player card, and the other three are never used.

This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected. It is a lie in a way, but not one that actually matters except perhaps psychologically - in the same way that some people think it matters which spot you sit at at a blackjack table, or think it matters if other BJ players make dumb decisions.
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
Denmark
TheBloke said:
This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected. It is a lie in a way, but not one that actually matters except perhaps psychologically - in the same way that some people think it matters which spot you sit at at a blackjack table, or think it matters if other BJ players make dumb decisions.

Correct, it actually does not matter for the player. But it is deceptive which
I do not like. And using card games when it actually is not a card game is
very poor gambling business ethics, and it is illegal in same cases, but probably
not here unfortunately.
I am still disappointed over MG in this.
 

Zoozie

Ueber Meister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Dec 1, 2005
Location
Denmark
I still find it funny MGs preview picture for 4-line Dueces wild (also a few other games) is obviously rigged. I did contact 32Red a year ago and they said they would contact MG, but it is not fixed yet.

Zoozie
 

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
TheBloke said:
This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected.
It might make the game quicker, but the average player simply wastes time selecting a card when in fact he no longer has any influence over the result.

I agree with the general opinion that it's probably deception rather than rigging, but if you're treating card games as (correctly weighted) slots, and only then displaying cards to make them look normal, you'd only have to alter one variable to rig the game. It also suggests the enduring perception of players that MG card games seem to give the correct long-term payout but behave unnaturally might have a basis in fact.

In any case it's yet more evidence that players should be very wary of on-line casino software. It follows that:

1) Audits (whether by PWC or eCOGRA) are close to worthless if they don't get qualified people to examine the way the software operates, rather than just the results

2) In a case where a non-random game is proven (as with EH VP doubling), we can't give the casino any benefit of the doubt - zero tolerance may well be the best means of exerting at least a limited amount of pressure on the casinos to offer fair games.
 

sal monella

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 6, 2005
Location
Where the deers and the antelopes play
Very disturbing IMO. I've never really tried Microgaming VP doubling, but I've done some doubling on their slots, and the results seemed very fair.

But if a game is presented as a card game, it needs to function the same as if actual cards were being used, or at least include a disclaimer in the rules.
 

TheBloke

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Location
London
It does function just like a card game.

All that is false is that it appears like you can choose any of the next four cards in the deck, whereas you always get the next card in the deck.

They appear to have cut a corner in order to speed the game up. I guess they figured since it makes no difference which card you select, they may as well choose the card for you and have a VP double that runs faster than the competition. It's still a random card from a shuffled deck, so you will still win 50% of the time, so what does it matter?

I agree it was probably a stupid decision - they know how superstitious and suspicious gamblers are (casinos make a lot of money because of that), so they should have realised that if anyone ever noticed people would jump to illogical conclusions. None of their comptetitors cut that corner and are all doing fine, so it was an unnecessary step.

But it is not a cheat, and nothing like the other 'VP is rigged' stories we have seen recently.
 

The Watchdog

Dormant account
Joined
May 5, 2006
Location
Costa Rica
My god

This thread might be the most amazing thread I have ever read...

Just when I thought I knew crap about Video Poker, this thread showed me I actaully knew less than what I thought..

So please do me a favor and help me out.

is the following statement a fact?

On Microgaming's Video Poker when you hit double, the dealer's card and the card you are going to get are already determined when clicking double?

Meaning that regardless what card you pick you have already lost or won??

Damn that surprises me big time. I have never played video poker at Microgaming, but I do have played some at Playtech.

If the doubling feature of Playtech works like MG's I guarantee that is a better scam than MG's. At least in Playtech when you play the double feature in Jack's or Better Multiline or the regular one you get the feeling that the card you choose actually makes a difference.

This brings a lot of doubts to my mind. For example on games like Craps or Roulette.... I'll better make no further comments.

I would really like to see Playtech's and MG's explanation to this.

mmmm I don't like this at all... Is just disturbing... dunno what to think.

The chance of luck is not being provided by Video Poker then.

Regardless what you do when you hit double your fate has been set...
#@%@^ that...

Thanks to Casinomeister... if this site had never been set, I would never had learn about this.

I will take this to the Wizz to see what he has to say...
 

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
The Watchdog said:
is the following statement a fact?

On Microgaming's Video Poker when you hit double, the dealer's card and the card you are going to get are already determined when clicking double?

Meaning that regardless what card you pick you have already lost or won??
Yep, we don't know the exact process, but it's irrelevant which card you pick. It's probably just misleading, but it does make you wonder how many other corners Microgaming cut.

Another problem is the way the game actually works contradicts the game description in the software's on-line help:

If you win a hand in the game and want to Double, do the following:

1. Click the Double button. Five new cards are dealt, and the Dealer's card is turned face up.

2. Select any of the four remaining face down cards. All four are turned over to reveal their values and the card you selected is highlighted.
 

Mousey

Ueber Meister Mouse
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Location
Up$hitCreek
2. Select any of the four remaining face down cards. All four are turned over to reveal their values and the card you selected is highlighted.

But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything! :confused:

And someone said this is the same way B&M games work?? Game King and IGT, or whoever makes the licensed machines?? I am really, really taken aback.
 

TheBloke

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 9, 2005
Location
London
Mousey said:
But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything! :confused:

Whatever card you do click on will be displayed as the already chosen card.

So, you click double. The dealer deals himself a card - let's say it's a Ten, and then it deals you a card, let's say the King of spades. It then deals three more cards.

It then displays its ten, and four face-down cards. Whichever card you click on will be displayed as the King of spades. If you clicked card one, King of Spades. Card three, king of spades. The other three cards (the ones you didnt click on) will show as the other three that were dealt, and which never made any difference.

If you don't click on anything - let's say you just closed the casino - it won't matter, because your balance will change the moment you click double, because the server already knows that the dealer has a ten and you have a king so you won in this example. The card choice is just window dressing.

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?
 

kingkong098

Experienced Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Location
north
This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...


If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!
 

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
TheBloke said:
Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?
If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but had already tossed the coin on his own to decide if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss you watched accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?
 
Last edited:

mitch

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 30, 2004
Location
UK
I can't understand the fuss here.

Players must realise that they are gambling against a random number generator, no matter how the casino cares to present the game. You are not gambling against a real deck of cards!

As long as the players expectation is the same, which it is, what does it matter?

If it speeds the game up, good, I am in favour of it.

Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

Mitch
 

Vesuvio

Dormant account
Joined
Apr 22, 2004
Location
UK
mitch said:
And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.
It doesn't at MG, alas :)

I don't know - in turn I'm a bit suprised that people think it's fine for a casino to be wasting players' time offering an apparent choice of cards when they've already chosen for you. MG have been caught out here lying and doing something they'd never have admitted to otherwise.

Of course I'm aware there's an RNG ;) - but with card games there's no good reason why the RNG shouldn't just be used to generate cards - then the logic of the game rules decides if I win or lose. Any deviation from that's a slippery slope. Some bright programmer might conclude there's no point wasting time transmitting data for the whole rigmarole of a game when they can just decide wins/losses/pushes in a split second and then have the software on your PC locally make up some cards - regardless of what it does to game strategy. Or decide to weight all results so they conform to the house edge over time, but have more variation in the short term... and so on.
 
Top