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Microgaming VP doubling rigged

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by TrickyNicky, Aug 4, 2006.

    Aug 4, 2006
  1. TrickyNicky

    TrickyNicky Dormant account

    Location:
    united kingdom
    As posted here:

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Basically when doubling on VP at ssome updated MG casinos, if you hover your mouse at the bottom left of the screen it will show your balance...but the balance will show whether you have won or lost - BEFORE you have picked a card!! So if the software displays a five, you can see whether you will win or lose - before you even pick a card! If you have lost - you'll obviously pick a lower card, even though it will often display a higher card as having been available (but how did the software know what you were going to pick?!).
    So there is no interactive element to this game, which is clearly not what they are advertising and what players expect with a game of this nature. random? definitely not..


    TN
     
    2 people like this.
  2. Aug 4, 2006
  3. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    I'm sure it's still random. It's just like playing the slots. The outcome is already determined as soon as you click "spin", or in this situation, "gamble".

    Hardly worth claiming it's rigged.
     
  4. Aug 4, 2006
  5. TrickyNicky

    TrickyNicky Dormant account

    Location:
    united kingdom
    but this is mocked up as a card game in which the player interacts...it is different to slots IMHO.
     
  6. Aug 4, 2006
  7. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    True, but that still doesn't mean it's rigged.


    And also true they should let people know the outcome is predetermined, etc...

    ie: "The gamble feature is setup like flipping a coin. As soon as you click the gamble button, the coin flips and decides your fate."

    :lolup:
     
  8. Aug 4, 2006
  9. AussieDave

    AussieDave Dodgy whacko backstabber

    Occupation:
    Gaming SEO Specialist & Casino Webmaster
    Location:
    Australia
    That's a bit rich saying MG VP is rigged.

    As far as I'm aware as soon as you hit the double button the RNG determines the results.

    The cards, slots, whatever are just pretty graphics.

    My understanding of this is that if you were to hit the double up button 1000'th of a sec later you'd achieve a different outcome, or 1000'th of a sec sooner you'd get a different outcome. Nothing rigged about that, sounds pretty random to me.

    More to the point, is it rigged when you don't win & not rigged when you do...

    I do however agree that they shouldn't display the outcome before the card is picked. This would lend itself to being thought as being dodgy imo. Not that I believe MG casino software is.
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. Aug 4, 2006
  11. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    MG needs to expain how this actually works and the %.

    It cant be a simple RNG 50/50 because I presume you "snap" with the dealer every now and then?

    I predict this thread will get very looooonnnnnnnngggggggggg
     
  12. Aug 4, 2006
  13. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount. webby PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania

    You're right. I was thinking about the gamble on slots where it's a red/black/suit choice.

    This almost seems like something I saw at (I believe it was) casino770 in the flash version of their blackjack. I started a thread about it, but it never went anywhere.

    It definately seemed pretty odd to me at the time, but I never even thought of it being rigged...quite a difference.

     
  14. Aug 4, 2006
  15. 1819

    1819 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    retired athlete
    Location:
    ny,nj,fla
    correct. as soon as you pick double. you've won or lost. what card you pick makes no difference. same as a land based machine. it does seem mg software uses the same cards for a loss. the ace comes up all the time. you hardley ever "lose" to an 8. lol. again though it makes no difference.
     
  16. Aug 5, 2006
  17. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Rigged

    Rigged, as the genuine double-up game is NOT 50/50, it depends on what the dealer card is, and you have to pick a higher one. While the long term outcome is not any different, the VARIANCE and DEGREE OF RISK most certainly are different to what would be expected.
    Certainly, if it is true that the result is a predetermined win or lose before a card is picked it makes a complete nonsense of the recent English Harbour excuse about the replacement of an array of cards after the pick and the win test being repeated again on the new card only if the original double was won.
    If it is a coin toss, MG should show it as such, we do NOT expect slot performance for a card game.
    I read that Video Poker machines have to behave as though it were a real deck of cards, the MG double game in THEIR VP games seem to breach this rule. I expect the land based ones would not be alllowed to do this.

    I could say that perhaps it is the same for the Blackjack then, the result is determined as soon as you press deal, and within reason, you cannot win more by playing better strategy, only lose by making boneheaded decisions like hitting on 19's and 20's!

    I noticed this little quirk a while ago. I posted that one day this will catch MG out doing something with a game that was not as displayed on the screen.

    Incidentally, in Blackjack, the result updates as soon as you stand, and BEFORE the dealer even starts to draw, although this is not the same as the player no longer has influence over the outcome, unlike in a case where they have to pick the right card from 5 to beat the dealer card.

    What other games are not as displayed, thus making the variance different to that of a land casino played with real cards.
     
    1 person likes this.
  18. Aug 5, 2006
  19. BBKPoker

    BBKPoker halfway to busto PABrogue3

    Occupation:
    None
    Location:
    Edinburgh, Seattle, Vancouver BC, Auckland
    32red claims it is a RNG.

    I sent this email:

    "Is the doubling feature on your video poker games a true random number
    generator, or is it predetermined?

    If it's predetermined, is it set to a 0% house edge, or does the doubling have a house edge as well?"

    and received this response:

    'Thank you for your e-mail.

    We use a random number generator. Please click on the link below for
    further information.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Have a good night.

    Kind regards,

    Emma
    Player Support Shift Leader
    32Red Casino| Dash Casino |32Red Poker
    Casinomeister Best Casino 2003, 2004 & 2005 "

    Which reassures me somewhat as 32red is quite reputable.
     
  20. Aug 5, 2006
  21. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    Oh well thats ok then, pwc checks everything with a fine tooth comb. Im a believer:lolup: :lolup:

    ps I guarantee pwc doesnt know whether MG video poker double up cards are generated when a user presses "double up", before a user presses "double up" or when a user "farts very loud".
     
  22. Aug 5, 2006
  23. TheBloke

    TheBloke Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Database programmer
    Location:
    London
    The doubling in MG VP is categorically not rigged.

    When you click Double, the server chooses a card for the dealer and then chooses a card for the player. The higher card wins and it is all generated using the RNG and a truly random 50/50 shot as you would expect.

    The game is deceptive in that it suggests that the user is actually choosing one of four cards to be compared against the dealer's. In fact whichever card he clicks on will be displayed as the already chosen player card, and the other three are never used.

    This does not in any way alter the odds of winning, and in fact it makes the MG double feature quicker than that on other casinos which have to contact the server twice - once to get the dealer card, then again to see which card you selected. It is a lie in a way, but not one that actually matters except perhaps psychologically - in the same way that some people think it matters which spot you sit at at a blackjack table, or think it matters if other BJ players make dumb decisions.
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Aug 5, 2006
  25. Zoozie

    Zoozie Ueber Meister CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Software Developer
    Location:
    Denmark
    Correct, it actually does not matter for the player. But it is deceptive which
    I do not like. And using card games when it actually is not a card game is
    very poor gambling business ethics, and it is illegal in same cases, but probably
    not here unfortunately.
    I am still disappointed over MG in this.
     
  26. Aug 5, 2006
  27. Zoozie

    Zoozie Ueber Meister CAG PABnonaccred

    Occupation:
    Software Developer
    Location:
    Denmark
    I still find it funny MGs preview picture for 4-line Dueces wild (also a few other games) is obviously rigged. I did contact 32Red a year ago and they said they would contact MG, but it is not fixed yet.

    Zoozie
     
  28. Aug 5, 2006
  29. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    It might make the game quicker, but the average player simply wastes time selecting a card when in fact he no longer has any influence over the result.

    I agree with the general opinion that it's probably deception rather than rigging, but if you're treating card games as (correctly weighted) slots, and only then displaying cards to make them look normal, you'd only have to alter one variable to rig the game. It also suggests the enduring perception of players that MG card games seem to give the correct long-term payout but behave unnaturally might have a basis in fact.

    In any case it's yet more evidence that players should be very wary of on-line casino software. It follows that:

    1) Audits (whether by PWC or eCOGRA) are close to worthless if they don't get qualified people to examine the way the software operates, rather than just the results

    2) In a case where a non-random game is proven (as with EH VP doubling), we can't give the casino any benefit of the doubt - zero tolerance may well be the best means of exerting at least a limited amount of pressure on the casinos to offer fair games.
     
    1 person likes this.
  30. Aug 5, 2006
  31. Very disturbing IMO. I've never really tried Microgaming VP doubling, but I've done some doubling on their slots, and the results seemed very fair.

    But if a game is presented as a card game, it needs to function the same as if actual cards were being used, or at least include a disclaimer in the rules.
     
  32. Aug 5, 2006
  33. TheBloke

    TheBloke Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Database programmer
    Location:
    London
    It does function just like a card game.

    All that is false is that it appears like you can choose any of the next four cards in the deck, whereas you always get the next card in the deck.

    They appear to have cut a corner in order to speed the game up. I guess they figured since it makes no difference which card you select, they may as well choose the card for you and have a VP double that runs faster than the competition. It's still a random card from a shuffled deck, so you will still win 50% of the time, so what does it matter?

    I agree it was probably a stupid decision - they know how superstitious and suspicious gamblers are (casinos make a lot of money because of that), so they should have realised that if anyone ever noticed people would jump to illogical conclusions. None of their comptetitors cut that corner and are all doing fine, so it was an unnecessary step.

    But it is not a cheat, and nothing like the other 'VP is rigged' stories we have seen recently.
     
    1 person likes this.
  34. Aug 6, 2006
  35. The Watchdog

    The Watchdog Dormant account

    Occupation:
    sports, poker, casinos
    Location:
    Costa Rica
    My god

    This thread might be the most amazing thread I have ever read...

    Just when I thought I knew crap about Video Poker, this thread showed me I actaully knew less than what I thought..

    So please do me a favor and help me out.

    is the following statement a fact?

    On Microgaming's Video Poker when you hit double, the dealer's card and the card you are going to get are already determined when clicking double?

    Meaning that regardless what card you pick you have already lost or won??

    Damn that surprises me big time. I have never played video poker at Microgaming, but I do have played some at Playtech.

    If the doubling feature of Playtech works like MG's I guarantee that is a better scam than MG's. At least in Playtech when you play the double feature in Jack's or Better Multiline or the regular one you get the feeling that the card you choose actually makes a difference.

    This brings a lot of doubts to my mind. For example on games like Craps or Roulette.... I'll better make no further comments.

    I would really like to see Playtech's and MG's explanation to this.

    mmmm I don't like this at all... Is just disturbing... dunno what to think.

    The chance of luck is not being provided by Video Poker then.

    Regardless what you do when you hit double your fate has been set...
    #@%@^ that...

    Thanks to Casinomeister... if this site had never been set, I would never had learn about this.

    I will take this to the Wizz to see what he has to say...
     
  36. Aug 6, 2006
  37. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Yep, we don't know the exact process, but it's irrelevant which card you pick. It's probably just misleading, but it does make you wonder how many other corners Microgaming cut.

    Another problem is the way the game actually works contradicts the game description in the software's on-line help:

     
  38. Aug 6, 2006
  39. Mousey

    Mousey Ueber Meister Mouse CAG

    Occupation:
    Pencil Pusher
    Location:
    Up$hitCreek
    But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything! :confused:

    And someone said this is the same way B&M games work?? Game King and IGT, or whoever makes the licensed machines?? I am really, really taken aback.
     

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