Microgaming VP doubling rigged

henryVIII

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Casino's should never decieve the players. Period. This game is built on trust alone.

When they do it makes me very suspicious.

Just like with EH, you wonder why they have been fiddling with the software functioning ... to save a few milliseconds at the expense of dealing the game as they say they do.

I dont buy that personally.

Can you seriously believe that they had meetings, hired staff etc and tampered with the software codes just to make this tiny change for no real benefit to anyone other than to result in their game description being deceptive.

Just my own opinion but (hypothetically) say a casino did want to rig this feature (to hit bonus abusers a la EH or something) then wouldnt this adjustment make it easier for them to control (ie rig) the game.

They now need to configure in only one player card value as opposed to four possibles AND when the cards are revaled the player will believe he actually could have got one of the better cards.

If the game played like they say it doea then the dealers card is revealed first and the four player cards are subsequently revealed ... that would be harder to rig Id bet.

But, yes I know the drill, spend a month proving it. Just my take.
 

The Watchdog

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The Bloke

You seem very focused on defending Microgaming´s Video Poker.

Dunno why.. I have nothing against them, only that the whole issue is just disturbing. For a lot of players who think they have some chance of luck, this is very disturbing.

The point of online casinos is to provide the best gaming experience possible, obviously Video Poker at Microgaming is not satisfying this demand.

Tell me one thing.

If you hit double, and one card shows, and you have 4 cards to pick... why the hell would you play the double feature if it doesn´t matter on which card you click if its going to be the same freaking card from the moment you choose to double???

I believe you are being very close minded about the subject on hand...

And what the hell is that on trying to bring more attention to other issues than this one???? Its a free forum.. you don´t like this thread.. go ahead and pick another...

As for me, I would really like to see some MG representative's post on this matter. Also I would like to know how Video Poker works on Crypto, Playtech and RTG...
 

winbig

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The Watchdog said:
You seem very focused on defending Microgamings Video Poker.

Dunno why.. I have nothing against them, only that the whole issue is just disturbing. For a lot of players who think they have some chance of luck, this is very disturbing.

The point of online casinos is to provide the best gaming experience possible, obviously Video Poker at Microgaming is not satisfying this demand.

Tell me one thing.

If you hit double, and one card shows, and you have 4 cards to pick... why the hell would you play the double feature if it doesnt matter on which card you click if its going to be the same freaking card from the moment you choose to double???

I believe you are being very close minded about the subject on hand...

And what the hell is that on trying to bring more attention to other issues than this one???? Its a free forum.. you dont like this thread.. go ahead and pick another...

As for me, I would really like to see some MG representative's post on this matter. Also I would like to know how Video Poker works on Crypto, Playtech and RTG...

There's very many MG players here, and maybe once MG sees that play on doubles has gone down significantly, they might get a clue.

As far as a MG rep posting about this......don't hold your breath. They'll never post here regarding this issue or any other :)
 

mitch

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Location
UK
There must be a lot of masochists in the world!

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

If you genuinely believe that a huge operation like MG would deliberately cheat its players you would be an idiot to ever gamble online.

Software designers like to have elegant and quick solutions to problems.

This design is one such.

I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! :eek: ) runs of 10 or more.

If anyone wants to dispute that obvious fact please supply the mathematical justification for the opinion.

If no one supplies such mathematical proof (and they wont!) or proof that they have psychic powers that enable them to see which one of the 4 cards they should choose, then players must believe that MG are cheating in some way. If so see the first 3 paragraphs!

Mitch
 

henryVIII

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UK
mitch said:
For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

So, you are expecting someone to spend months and a lot of $ getting 'proof' before expressing an opion.

Even if proof was presented then English harbour episode showed thats probably still not going to be enough.

To recap, they have altered the software so that (at the very least) their description of the game is deceptive. You believe they do this to shave a couple of milliseconds of the timing. For myself, I have no idea why they would do something so unusual.

However, i would assume there is a very good reason. For me personally, the one you assume seems, at the very least, a stupid thing to do ... almost illogical, given the need for transperancy and trust.

I do know that English harbour targeted the doubling up feature as well.

For reasons why they might be doing this please re-read my post above.

Bottom line is no one knows but them. I dont know and you certainly dont.

Do you still play at English Harbour mitch if you dont mind me asking?
 

erp1

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Feb 25, 2002
According to eCOGRA's General accepted practises:
"The design and operation of games shall be in accordance with the following:
109.R.1.1. Game rules must be made available to the player.
109.R.1.2. Games must be operated strictly in accordance with the specified game rules".

If the double feature functions as decribed, it's obvious that the games that are operated are completely different from the specified game rules that are made available to the player.

Would be interesting to see an eCOGRA reaction?

Are eCOGRA going to remove the seals from all Microgaming casinoes? :D
 

HateMG

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Location
Brooklyn, NY
Originally posted by Mitch
I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! ) runs of 10 or more.


It may not make any difference over thousand hands but it just may make a difference just for the hand I'm playing or just several hands. I personally don't care about infinite number of hands, what I personally care is to make the right choice over few double ups in my session and MG is taking it from me. So to save some time for gamblers who are so in a rush to gamble away let MG substitude these 5 cards with red/black (as slots gamble feature) and it'll give you the same effect as chosing a card for you in VP.
 

The Watchdog

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Location
Costa Rica
mitch said:
There must be a lot of masochists in the world!

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

If you genuinely believe that a huge operation like MG would deliberately cheat its players you would be an idiot to ever gamble online.

Software designers like to have elegant and quick solutions to problems.

This design is one such.


I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! :eek: ) runs of 10 or more.

If anyone wants to dispute that obvious fact please supply the mathematical justification for the opinion.

If no one supplies such mathematical proof (and they wont!) or proof that they have psychic powers that enable them to see which one of the 4 cards they should choose, then players must believe that MG are cheating in some way. If so see the first 3 paragraphs!

Mitch

I feel like I am retarded.... ok... please some one help because either all of you guys like this one is crazy, or I just have a f"%"&% birth problem.

I am not a Video Poker junkie or expert ... but here are 2 scenarios..

Scenario 1: (apparently Micrgaming´s Video Poker)

You Click on Double and Both Cards, the dealer´s and your´s is already determined. So if you Click and the House has a 7, regardless what card you pick, if you were set to get a 3, a 3 will appear.

Scenario 2: (How I believe Video Poker should be programmed)

You Click on Double: A Dealer´s card is shown. 4 other cards randomly set are facing down. You click on the card you want, and it does matter because the cards facing down are already set. So if the dealer´s card is an 8 and facind down you have ACE, Four, King, Two. It will make a difference which one you pick and the card is not chosen from the moment you clicked on double...

Is it too hard too understand?? Because I am getting very irritated with people saying that Scenario 1 is fine. I thought Video Poker worked as I explained on Scenario 2.

:mad:
 

The Watchdog

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Costa Rica
Good Comment

erp1 said:
Are eCOGRA going to remove the seals from all Microgaming casinoes? :D


But plesae.. dont get me started with eCogra... I promised not to say more personal comments about their operation. So please dont get me started :lolup:

Lets see if they ever make a comment about this.. Probably in the year 2000... wait a minute.. its 2006... well then maybe in the year 3000...:eek2:
 

mitch

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UK
henryVIII said:
Do you still play at English Harbour mitch if you dont mind me asking?

I have never played at EH or any Odds On casino and in view of the above mentioned fiasco never would.

My point is not that you cannot design cheating software obviously you can.

My point is that in this instance of software design there is no difference whatsoever to the player. However if you genuinely believe that MG have designed the software to operate in a fashion that somehow disadvantages the player then you should not play at MG casinos.

Mitch
 

The Watchdog

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Location
Costa Rica
... My point of view

Is not that MG is making a casino software that cheats...

Only that if you want to provide a good product for you customer... this game is just awful.

It seems that the programmers were so lazy to make an efficient game, that they decided to leave everything on the double button...

What they said probably was: Baaah , why are we going to waste time writtiing tons of code for the double feature.. .lets just make it random from the first moment they click and thats it. Programming 4 cards?? come on.. too much work... lets have a cigarrete and chill..

Thats what I believe could have happened when they created Video Poker.. reason why it will be interesting to see how other Video Pokers from other softwares are programmed...
 

rreevy

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UK
I have to agree with Mitch. It makes no difference, at least in the long run. In the short run it's as likely to help you as it is to hurt you.

That said, I am a little annoyed. Suppose the dealer's card is a King, and I pick a lower card. Then one of the other cards turns out to be an Ace, and I'm left kicking myself that I didn't pick that card. If I'd never have got the Ace anyway, then I'm beating myself up for nothing. I'm sorry, but if only for that reason it makes a difference to me.

For the record, I don't double up or even play VP very often. I have had experiences like the above, but it may not have been exactly like that, nor was it necessarily at a Microgaming casino.
 

Vesuvio

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mitch said:
My point is that in this instance of software design there is no difference whatsoever to the player.
You're confusing two things here. It's true it makes no difference to the expected return, but it'll completely transform the average player's perception of the game. Perhaps the perception shouldn't matter, but then no-one but a bonus hunter would gamble at an on-line casino if the perception was taken away.
mitch said:
However if you genuinely believe that MG have designed the software to operate in a fashion that somehow disadvantages the player then you should not play at MG casinos.
I don't think they're disadvantaging the player, but this is a common fallacy. Yep, if there's no bonus you'd be mad to play on casino software you didn't trust, but with bonuses it's worth playing anywhere as long as you've got a big enough edge to cover the software's quirks. Why else would anyone play at Chartwell casinos? ;)
 

The Watchdog

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Vesuvio said:
You're confusing two things here. It's true it makes no difference to the expected return, but it'll completely transform the average player's perception of the game. Perhaps the perception shouldn't matter, but then no-one but a bonus hunter would gamble at an on-line casino if the perception was taken away.

Exactly!!!!
 

winbig

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Location
Pennsylvania
mitch said:
There must be a lot of masochists in the world!

For all those who think MG have got an ulterior motive for designing their software like this, why are you playing at internet casinos?

If you genuinely believe that a huge operation like MG would deliberately cheat its players you would be an idiot to ever gamble online.

Software designers like to have elegant and quick solutions to problems.

This design is one such.

I repeat again it makes absolutely no difference to the player if a card is chosen randomly by the software or whether it randomly chooses 4 cards and the player makes another random selection from these 4. The only difference is that the software is slower and more complicated for the latter example. Because both selections are completely random there is no question of not being able to have huge winning (or losing! :eek: ) runs of 10 or more.

If anyone wants to dispute that obvious fact please supply the mathematical justification for the opinion.

If no one supplies such mathematical proof (and they wont!) or proof that they have psychic powers that enable them to see which one of the 4 cards they should choose, then players must believe that MG are cheating in some way. If so see the first 3 paragraphs!

Mitch


I think we're on two different pages here. Nobody that I know of is trying to prove it's rigged.
 

mitch

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winbig said:
I think we're on two different pages here. Nobody that I know of is trying to prove it's rigged.

So what's the point of this thread? (have you seen the title!)

If it's to emphasise that internet play is not the same as real cards, what's the point, everybody knows that?

Designing the software to produce 4 cards is just an illusion, it's all down to ones and zeros anyway.

If the thread is to show that, presenting the game this way disadvantages the player in some way, well, it's just not correct I am afraid.

Mitch
 
Last edited:

The Watchdog

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mitch said:
So what's the point of this thread? (have you seen the title!)

If it's to emphasise that internet play is not the same as real cards, what's the point, everybody knows that?

Designing the software to produce 4 cards is just an illusion, it's all down to ones and zeros anyway.

If the thread is to show that, presenting the game this way disadvantages the player in some way, well, it's just not correct I am afraid.

Mitch

Damn.. So Black Jack, Craps, Roulette is all down to ones and zeros uh?

Having a deck of cards deal 1 face up and four facing down I am sure is not the most complicated algorithm on earth...

The point is customers' satisfaction. You are under the illusion that you have a chance of luck by picking a card to beat another, but is totally fixed at the moment you hit on the double option... why waste the customer´s time and just after hitting double upgrade the balance and go to the next hand...

If you are such a programming pro.. why those pros at MG didn´t check for their mistake before having a valued customer noticing before starting this thread.?
 

winbig

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The Watchdog said:
The point is customers' satisfaction. You are under the illusion that you have a chance of luck by picking a card to beat another, but is totally fixed at the moment you hit on the double option... why waste the customer´s time and just after hitting double upgrade the balance and go to the next hand...


Couldn't have said it better myself.

Could you see B&M casinos doing this? They might as well get rid of their slots/VP machines, etc. They could just go up to the cashier and press a button which will tell them what they owe or what they win. Would save alot of time! (Which is what MG was trying to do, but got busted) :thumbsup:
 

Mousey

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The dealer has one card. I am dealt 4 cards. That implies a choice, one card of four. If I am not making a choice, 1 out of 4, then deal me only the one card that represents my win or loss (which was already decided when I hit the 'double up' button). It's the smoke and mirrors that bothers me.
 

The Watchdog

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I dont have any proves..

But I am pretty sure Video Poker on other softwares work different than in Microgaming... at least on Playtech.

I am very positive that the double feature in Playtech gives you the option of actually getting lucky when picking a card... Reason why so many people have gotten amazing hands on Playtech.

My prediction:

Playtech: You are actually choosing among 4 different cards when you double

Microgaming: What weve been talking about... Your destiny is set once you hit double...

Would like to hear some opinions of people who have played at Crypto
 
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