Microgaming VP doubling rigged

TheBloke

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Mousey said:
But... but... but... "the card you selected is highlighted". If the win/lose decision has already been predetermined by my clicking the Double button, I don't select anything! :confused:

Whatever card you do click on will be displayed as the already chosen card.

So, you click double. The dealer deals himself a card - let's say it's a Ten, and then it deals you a card, let's say the King of spades. It then deals three more cards.

It then displays its ten, and four face-down cards. Whichever card you click on will be displayed as the King of spades. If you clicked card one, King of Spades. Card three, king of spades. The other three cards (the ones you didnt click on) will show as the other three that were dealt, and which never made any difference.

If you don't click on anything - let's say you just closed the casino - it won't matter, because your balance will change the moment you click double, because the server already knows that the dealer has a ten and you have a king so you won in this example. The card choice is just window dressing.

Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?
 

kingkong098

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This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...


If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!
 

Vesuvio

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TheBloke said:
Deceptive it may be, but it really makes no difference to anything whatsoever. It's like saying a coin flip uses a 20p when actually it's a 50p. Who cares?
If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but had already tossed the coin on his own to decide if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss you watched accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?
 
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mitch

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I can't understand the fuss here.

Players must realise that they are gambling against a random number generator, no matter how the casino cares to present the game. You are not gambling against a real deck of cards!

As long as the players expectation is the same, which it is, what does it matter?

If it speeds the game up, good, I am in favour of it.

Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.

And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.

Mitch
 

Vesuvio

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mitch said:
And if doubling happens to count towards WR, then it is a no brainer.
It doesn't at MG, alas :)

I don't know - in turn I'm a bit suprised that people think it's fine for a casino to be wasting players' time offering an apparent choice of cards when they've already chosen for you. MG have been caught out here lying and doing something they'd never have admitted to otherwise.

Of course I'm aware there's an RNG ;) - but with card games there's no good reason why the RNG shouldn't just be used to generate cards - then the logic of the game rules decides if I win or lose. Any deviation from that's a slippery slope. Some bright programmer might conclude there's no point wasting time transmitting data for the whole rigmarole of a game when they can just decide wins/losses/pushes in a split second and then have the software on your PC locally make up some cards - regardless of what it does to game strategy. Or decide to weight all results so they conform to the house edge over time, but have more variation in the short term... and so on.
 

The Watchdog

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mitch said:
I can't understand the fuss here.
Should players use this double up feature? Of course they should, it is one of the few situations in which the casino does not have any edge.
Mitch

Oh my god... I am sure you must be on a hangover... or you an expert on online casinos...

For me the whole concept is moronic. Why would you play on a double game, where picking your card is just a freaking thing made up for enjoyment?

When I pick a card, and the others show, I like to think: DAMN.. WHY DIDN'T I PICKED THE OTHER ONE?? and not to think that my fate was already set when I hit the double feature...
 

The Watchdog

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Further more...

The whole issue kept me all night long thinking about it.

A little research has made me come up with other stuff....

Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

On the other hand... Several Playtech Casinos have Video Poker as invalid games... Would it be possible that this game is invalid due to the fact the the doulbe option in Playtech is not configured as in Microgaming?? Have you played Video Poker on Playtech and noticed how easy is to increase your balance on a lucky round of doubling in Jacks or Better??

This is a thread we're I would really like The Meister, The Wiz and people from different software developers make comments....

The whole issue has shocked me... At this moment, if I were a Microgaming regular VP player I will hold back my gaming for a sec and see what happens....
 

1819

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ny,nj,fla
kingkong098 said:
This is quite shocking to me. Call it deceptive, call it a way to speed up the game, this is in fact rigging. Whether or not it affects the payout percentages, the player is presented with a situation where it is believed his decision can alter the end result. This is cleary stated in the rules as pointed out in previous posts. If the players actions have 0 result on the outcome, MG is misrepresenting the game and it is lying to its players.

What about the red/black/suit doubling on the MG slot games? Is it set up the same way where the software decides whether or not you've won before making a choice?

I too would like to know more about the doubling feature of land based machines. I've seen guys go from ectasy to agony when the game presents a 3 and then the poor guy "picks" a 2 and loses his $400 double. Now, at the very least, he is in a sour mood the rest of the evening...People can cause themself a lot of grief thinking their wrong action cost them a lot of money, when in fact they might not have had any impact on the result...


If anyone knows how these machines work, please speak up!
can not be called rigging. its the same when you hit the spin button on a slot. 7-7-bar. people sitting there waiting for the 3rd 7 to fall when in fact the outcome has been pre determined. yes vp has a certain amount of interaction where the way you play directly affects the outcome during the hands. doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?
 

Lifesticks

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I agree this could hardly be called rigging. Deceptive - yes, but not to the degree of the HI/LO game from Intercasino just discussed here

What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.
 

TheBloke

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Vesuvio said:
If someone asked you to choose head or tails, but just decided in his head if you'd won or lost - then rigged the coin toss accordingly - you'd be a bit miffed if you found out, wouldn't you?

Not a good example. Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.

If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.

The Watchdog said:
Most Microgaming casinos allow video poker as valid games for their bonuses... mmmm would this be due to the topic on this thread?? Since the double feature is already set and there is no chance of luck to increase your winnings, so its fine to keep it as a valid.

What are you talking about? Of course luck still plays a part. It's still a 50/50 higher-card-wins card game, as I explained earlier. Also, as stated earlier by someone, VP doubling doesn't count towards WR at any MG casino, so it has no relation to bonuses at all.
 

TheBloke

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Lifesticks said:
What surprises me though is how MG can make such an idiotic mistake in programming the interface - in showing the result before the visual representation of the coinflip has been shown.

It has only become apparent in the last 3 months or so because of the move to EZ bonus. The casino software was updated to provide a cash/bonus display when your mouse is hovered over the balance. They must have forgotten about their short cut in VP and didn't prevent the new balance display from showing that the result had already been calculated.
 

Vesuvio

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1819 said:
doubling is more along the lines of a bonus round. outcome is already known. how can that be rigging?
The point is the outcome shouldn't already be known. You're shown the dealer card and given a choice of 4 cards. It should make a difference which one you pick.

As it is the doubling is rigged at the point you get to choose (you've got 0 or a 100% chance, rather than the natural odds you could calculate based on the dealer card), though I agree that overall doubling probably still offers a 50% chance, so shouldn't have any financial implications.
 

Vesuvio

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TheBloke said:
Not a good example.
It was a bit convoluted, I agree!
TheBloke said:
Nothing is 'decided' here - as I explained earlier, it still uses the RNG and still operates the expected way by drawing a card for the dealer and another card for you, from a randomly shuffled deck.
I understand the explanation, though I don't really see how you can be sure that is what happens. In any case, that's not the expected way it should operate. It should draw four cards for me and give me a choice between them.
TheBloke said:
If I found that I had played heads or tails, and my choice of 'heads' or 'tails' was ignored and instead my win was always tested against 'heads', I wouldn't give a toss (ha ha). So long as a real coin was still used, it wouldn't matter. I admit I'd regard it as odd - as I do with this situation - but nothing more.
I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway :)
 

TheBloke

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Vesuvio said:
I guess it's just a difference of outlook, then. I'd be seriously annoyed. Note I agree with you that the probability doesn't change and I'd have no qualms about doubling. I've always chosen the card nearest the dealer anyway :)

I suppose it must be. I understand that no-one likes to be deceived, but this isn't any kind of malicious deception. In fact you benefit from it, because MG's double is faster than its competitors. That may not seem important now, but I bet it makes quite a difference for modem users. I played Playtech VP on a modem once and it was painful.

So it's a lie, but it's a white lie. It doesn't hurt you, and it in fact it might help you if you play on a slow connection.

I just think everyone is wasting a lot of energy getting upset about this when it doesn't actually affect them at all. At a time where the spotlight is on online gambling, we shouldn't be crying wolf. There's enough real cheating scandals out there right now, let's not distract time and attention away from them.
 

nafanny29

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I find this very deceptive really. I mean the RNG has to display a dealer card, and all 4 player cards anyway, so why bother having a shortcut.

And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

I would love to know if the VP in Las Vegas works like this. I thought those machines legally had to be exactly the same as a pack of shuffled cards.
 

winbig

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nafanny29 said:
And like others hae said I enjoy the fact that I have to pick a card, and curse when I select a low card which loses and all 3 other cards would have won!! My enjoyment is now over and I will have to move to a different software. My brain cannot handle the fact its pre-determined.

Or how about the other side of it...no matter which card you choose, you lose...cause every single one was lower :p
 

Zoozie

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First of all as many point out, it is not rigged and it does not change the players EV. Cheating might be the correct word, since the player definately is cheated visually.

And it is an insult to have the player pick a card when this picking game is rigged since the card you pick will be switched to the allready predetermined card, this is what I would call the definition of the word 'rigged' in an online card game.

But how far does this go and what other games is also rigged the same way. (not serious, just examples with other games over this same principle)

1.Slot doubling(also predetermined if you pick suit)?
2. When opening the roulette table, has it been determined you would loose the first 50/50 bet no matter what you bet on and then show a number to
match the predetermined outcome.? This IS actually the same situation and I am sure roulette-lovers would now realize the magnitude of this 'non-changing EV rigging'.

You can also take this to the extreme as applying the same predetermined win/loose/tie to blackjack(simple example without splits/doubling etc.) where each probablity is equal to the mathematical probability the cards would give assuming optimal strategy for the current game. So if you are pre-determined to loose, now matter how you play (non optimal) you would still loose. If you are destined to win the cards would be stacked so optimal play would win.
This game does have the same EV/variance etc, but would the BJ players fancy this? I know of course that this is not the case, but this is just
an example over the excact same principle.

So YES, if this pre-determined doubling indeed is true while still pretending to a realistic card game with unknown outcome , I find this very severe. :mad:

This also reminds me of rumours of old B&M slot machines where the win was determined first and then they would show a winning combination matching that. It does not matter (EV) if the probablities for win/win-size are correct according to the game, but it removes all the fun from slots knowing this, since
the mystery of the spinning wheels now are obsolete.

Zoozie
 
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TheBloke

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For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.

The roulette example is nonsense - it is not guaranteed that you will win, or lose, any VP double; it is randomly calculated just like any other result. The blackjack example is also wrong, and not the same principle at all. MG's VP doubling operates identically to any other VP implementation. Dealer gets a card, player gets a card, higher card wins. IT DOES NOT MATTER WHICH CARD THE PLAYER GETS. Nothing is determined here. You might as well argue about which hand the dealer uses to deal you your card. "Ooh, I always do better when I have a left handed dealer!" It's ridiculous.

It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.

I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.
 

Vesuvio

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TheBloke said:
For about the fifth time now - IT IS NOT PREDETERMINED.

Before you click 'Double', the result is as unknown as any other result in a casino.

Once you click double, the result is known, and it is irrespective of what card you choose, but that does not mean it is a predetermined outcome. It is an outcome determined at the moment Double is clicked, rather than at the moment a card is clicked.
You can go through it all as many times as you like - it doesn't change the fact the card you get's predetermined before you choose a card. It shouldn't be. I can understand you think that's fine, but I don't see what you find suprising about others thinking it's not.

TheBloke said:
It amazes me that CM readers still talk abot 'pre-determination' as if there's some module in the casino server that decides "win, lose, win, lose, win, lose, lose". It simply does not work like that. The server shuffles a deck, deals the cards, and sees what happens, just like a real casino dealer does. Nothing about this situation changes that at all - MG's VP double still uses a real shuffled deck, and it still behaves just like a real game.
It doesn't behave like the real game. We've got no way of knowing if the rest works as you say it does - it should, but then doubling should also work in a way we now know it doesn't.

TheBloke said:
I just find it frustrating that with so many real problems out there, people are getting so worked up about this non-issue. I wonder what you'll achieve? Well at best MG will change their VP double so it operates like the others. So you'll get a slower VP double which plays just the same as the old one. Whoopee-doo.
As far as I can you see you're getting more worked up about it than anyone else. There's no reason we can't deal with cheating casinos and also explore an issue as revealing as this one. What might come up of it? A better understanding of the way the most popular casino software actually works.

I don't really get the speed issue - anyone who's used autoplay knows it's going to make a tiny difference if the server has to be consulted once or twice. Unless the autoplay's that quick because all the MG games use similar tricks...
 
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