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Mathematical proof that something is not quite right...

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Non-Bonus Issues' started by Lifesticks, Aug 1, 2006.

    Aug 1, 2006
  1. Lifesticks

    Lifesticks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Flash Developer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Hi all,

    One of the largest casino has a slot game where you can choose to gamble HI/LO on a number from 1-12 that is randomly generated after each turn.

    If you chose to gamble another number will be drawn that cannot be equal to the first number.

    After seriously doubting the likelihood that the second number drawn was actually random I decided to contact the casino to ask if this really was the case (the rules for the game does not say anything in a particular to this number). I received an answer that this was the case.

    After going through my log and just looking at the times I gambled HI/LO against a number that either was 2,3,10 or 11 (1 and 12 would ofcourse guarantee a HI/LO win) I see that in these situations (64 in total) I lost the gamble 37 times.

    Now, to be kind to the casino lets just take the probability of guessing right on the HI/LO of a 3 or a 10 (as opposed to also taking into account the even higher probability of a 2 or 11) i should have a 9/11 chance to win. Evaluating this using a binomial distribution this would have a 0,000000000001798654 chance of happening. Remember, this is not taking into account the increased probability of winning the 2 or 11 gambles.

    Due to this Casino being so respectable I reckon that the HI/LO is just a coinflip bet and that they have forgot to state this in the rules, this would certainly be rather deceptive though as a HI/LO gives a very clear picture of something else... Anyhow, as the Casino wont give me an answer I reckon I'd ask you guys. What do you think?

    Hope its reasonably clear - english is not my first language... and yes I have my logs if anyone would be interested.
     
  2. Aug 1, 2006
  3. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    I have this distinct feeling I know which casino and game you are talking about - almost surely this is what is known as a fruit machine, and the Hi-Lo gamble is NOT random, as is common in all real fruit machines that I have played. These machines can be found throughout the UK, the Netherlands and probably quite a few other European countries.
     
  4. Aug 1, 2006
  5. Lifesticks

    Lifesticks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Flash Developer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Yes, you are right and yes it seems pretty clear its not random.

    However, I who have never played a fruit game before or in real life obviously would consider it being so - especially since the game rules do not mention anything of the sort and even more so when the support tell me it is.

    So what are the real odds for winning the HI/LO? Do I have the right to know? This is extremely deceptive - at best.
     
  6. Aug 1, 2006
  7. spearmaster

    spearmaster RIP Ted

    Occupation:
    Devil's Advocate
    Location:
    Heaven
    Basically, there aren't any odds that I know of in such games. It's more like an adventure game - you have to know when to press your luck, and when to stop - eventually you'll recognize the signs.

    I don't recommend fruit machines for gambling. I play them for fun on occasion but it's best not to spend too much on these games.
     
  8. Aug 2, 2006
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Clarity

    Where casinos implement Fruit Machine games they need to make it clear if any event is not determined by the natural odds of the displayed game. Thus a 50/50 chance displayed as a Hi/Lo choice should have a disclaimer in the terms for the game.
    I am a seasoned Fruit Machine player, and "Random" is not something us "Fruit" players are familiar with. Fruit games use a controlling mechanism to restrict or loosen the game depending upon the results of previous games. As there is real choice available, poor players will sometimes not choose the most favourable option and leave the game "loose" for a better player.

    The Fruit games in the Cryptologic casinos seem to have used all the bad features from UK games and rolled them into one vision of hell. The ones in the MG Flash casinos are better, but I doubt they are random in the same sense that the normal casino slots are.

    The non-random nature of Fruit Machines leaves them open to manipulators resulting from bugs in the way the software adjusts the looseness of the game.
     
  10. Aug 2, 2006
  11. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    :lolup: :lolup: :lolup:
     
  12. Aug 2, 2006
  13. Simmo!

    Simmo! Moderator

    Occupation:
    Web Dev.
    Location:
    England
    Agree :thumbsup:
     
  14. Aug 2, 2006
  15. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    :lolup: I agree with nafanny! :lolup:

    Talking about publishing the odds - who has EVER seen that on a UK fruit machine? :confused:

    All you get is the overall payout % = pretty meaningless.

    One of my biggest gripes with them (apart from being rigged of course) is they don't even tell you anywhere how to play the darned things! e.g. What do those features with obscure meaningless names actually do??? *

    I've noticed on my travels that German machines have masses of writing all over the front. My German est nicht gut enough to translate it - but presumably these are the instructions & rules... anyone know?

    * VWM - how about adding some pages with this info to your site?
    I would actually pay (a small amount) for this!
     
  16. Aug 3, 2006
  17. Lifesticks

    Lifesticks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Flash Developer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Well I posted a message to the Casino rep. here, lets see what he says about the situation. Cant help but thinking that a HI/LO game that in reality is something totally different needs to have that clearly explained, if it should at all be allowed.
     
  18. Aug 4, 2006
  19. tennis_balls

    tennis_balls Dormant account

    Occupation:
    fish n chips promoter
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    tennis_balls' rules for beating the fruit machines:

    1. find a fruit machine in an isolated area or wait until manager of establishment is taking a break

    2. take a strong metal object (a sand iron would work well) and swing as hard as possible at base of machine

    3. scoop up any coins which may have fallen to the floor

    4. run like the dickens to an isolated location where you can change into a tee-shirt with the Union Jack on it and blend in.

    5. if you're an American and you do get caught, try to negotiate a prisoner exchange for David Carruthers
     
    3 people like this.
  20. Aug 5, 2006
  21. tennis_balls

    tennis_balls Dormant account

    Occupation:
    fish n chips promoter
    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    6. leave a business card with VWM's website on it at scene of the crime to help divert the authorities
     
    1 person likes this.
  22. Aug 5, 2006
  23. liquidsoap

    liquidsoap Dormant account

    Occupation:
    my self
    Location:
    home
    :lolup: :lolup: Tennis balls you are full of the jokes...
    Funniest things I ever read on here.
    And winbigs signature . :thumbsup:
     
  24. Aug 8, 2006
  25. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Promises!

    I have a few tips, but they become out of date so fast nowdays, and are getting harder to find.
    As to what all those features do. In most cases it is 11 methods of winning 2 to 4 plus the top feature that pays the Jackpot in an entertaining manner.
    There are some exceptions, where skilled players can extract decent prizes from the lower features, and needless to say such games are regularly "hammered".

    I have not updated my site since my hard drive upgrade a couple of months ago. Now that I have taken yet another beating at All Slots and co, I may spend some more quality time touring the Motorways to get this year's data, and see what "new" games are out (and determine which old games they are a reglassing of :) )
     
  26. Aug 12, 2006
  27. Lifesticks

    Lifesticks Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Flash Developer
    Location:
    Sweden
    Well, the Casino rep. here has answered my message and denied that the HI/LO feature would be anything but random. This, I feel, is rather poor behaviour.

    This game might not be anywhere near as popular as a Video Poker game not functioning properly at English Harbour but the deception is just as blatant. I feel very sorry for the people putting in loads of money in a game that does not give them the advertised chance of winning, especially since it is played at one of the absolute top casinos in the business.

    Im giving him another chance to answer though.
     

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