Major Absolute Poker Issue

[jas2587]

I dont know if these links help or have all ready been here but
they popped up in a site I was searching

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I am new at this so bare with me

Cindy

 

[pokeraddict]

Two stories about this are in the top 10 on Digg, a site that ranks near the top 100 in traffic according to Alexa. "Major Online Poker Room Caught Cheating" and "Absolute Poker Cheating Scandal Blown Wide Open" are the headlines. The NYT blog is helping too. Every day that goes by I bet a new large media outlet will cover this.

 

[jas2587]

Two stories about this are in the top 10 on Digg, a site that ranks near the top 100 in traffic according to Alexa. "Major Online Poker Room Caught Cheating" and "Absolute Poker Cheating Scandal Blown Wide Open" are the headlines. The NYT blog is helping too. Every day that goes by I bet a new large media outlet will cover this.

sooo ummm I did ok posting here
am kinda scared to post lol

Cindy

 

[pokeraddict]

sooo ummm I did ok posting here
am kinda scared to post lol

Cindy

You did fine. Also the Associated Press has picked up the story and it is running on several TV station websites. Here is one of them:

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The story is very vague, hopefully as time goes on the Associated Press will consider a more detailed look.

 

[mussy]

On the other hand,

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and

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, both of which should be all over this in my opinion, don't seem to give it a mention. And both still have a link to Absolute, along with bonus details.

 

[chuchu59]

I dont know if these links help or have all ready been here but
they popped up in a site I was searching

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I am new at this so bare with me

Cindy

Attagirl. Thanks for the links. And remember, you do post well for a relative newbie.

 

[tennis_balls]

this is laced with speculation but a good read nonetheless

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[chuchu59]

I have seen many of the hands played by Potripper and some of the calls are unbelievable. However, unless he is desparate to finish the tourney early, why couldnt he act like a normal player and fold several poor hands pre-flop just to make it seem a bit more realistic. Not very clever, IMO.

 

[lojo]

Two stories about this are in the top 10 on Digg, a site that ranks near the top 100 in traffic according to Alexa. "Major Online Poker Room Caught Cheating" and "Absolute Poker Cheating Scandal Blown Wide Open" are the headlines. The NYT blog is helping too. Every day that goes by I bet a new large media outlet will cover this.

Lets hope some advocates can help steer the political direction of the reaction. If Barney Frank, et al can use this as a case to regulate and build steam before the detractors of online gaming run with this, we stand a chance of a silver lining... or it could set us back for years to come.

PS please contact your representative(s) if they have signed on to Frank's bill.

 

[Jstyal]

Regulation of online poker rooms in the states will just mean higher licensing fees for a room to start up, which will be passed down to us it the form of higher rake. It will also mean more government interference in the way of our affairs (the irs will inexplicably tax all poker winnings, whether you're a taxpayer or non-taxpayer, whether you're a citizen or foreigner, somewhere during the cashout stage).

I like the status quo. I like how the players themselves--by choosing where to wager based on the site's reputability--and how player advocates like casinomeister keep the industry in check; we don't have to rely on some semi-senile pompous bureaucrat thinking he/she knows best for us. I also love the fact that rakes are the lowest in the poker industry (compared to live). And I also like how the industry has grown and has become more adept at this internet wagering thing all by themselves (with the help of its players) overseas. Just look at a site like Pokerstars. As Andy Rooney would say, I like that.

 

[jetset]

@Pokeraddict

After rereading the press release from AP... If I were you I would be praying that GA finds something... anything...

Because if they don't it looks like AP's lawyers will be paying you and a few others a visit...

I have always been suspicious of.... and had a great antipathy for..... posts like this on the fora, which suggest to me an attempt to stifle legitimate debate on questionable issues.

I'm disappointed in you, Lots0 - I did not think you would stoop to this sort of not-so-veiled threat.

 

[Jstyal]

hehe. lotso reminds me of that Neimoidian Senator (from The Phantom Menace) shouting "I object! There is no proof! This is incredible..." while Queen Amidala was pleading the senate for help from the illegal invasion of her native country partaken by the Neimoidians. Sorry, I like Star Wars.

Seriously, the evidence is so overwhelming and AP's response (or lack there of) to such is so self-incriminating that I find it offensive when people have the capability to ascertain the facts and evidence yet choose to not do so because of their own agenda.

 

[lojo]

Regulation of online poker rooms in the states will just mean higher licensing fees for a room to start up, which will be passed down to us it the form of higher rake. It will also mean more government interference in the way of our affairs (the irs will inexplicably tax all poker winnings, whether you're a taxpayer or non-taxpayer, whether you're a citizen or foreigner, somewhere during the cashout stage).

I like the status quo. I like how the players themselves--by choosing where to wager based on the site's reputability--and how player advocates like casinomeister keep the industry in check; we don't have to rely on some semi-senile pompous bureaucrat thinking he/she knows best for us. I also love the fact that rakes are the lowest in the poker industry (compared to live). And I also like how the industry has grown and has become more adept at this internet wagering thing all by themselves (with the help of its players) overseas. Just look at a site like Pokerstars. As Andy Rooney would say, I like that.

I certainly respect your opinion, and maybe Poker has been luckier than other online gaming in that respect, but the sad fact is; some yahoo fundamentalists will latch onto this issue and make it their poster boy politically to 'prove' that online gaming is all corrupt and crooked. All I'm saying is 'we' can beat them to the punch. Your points are excellent arguments; the community discovered the problem, the community applied pressure, and in the end it all worked out (we hope).

 

[lots0]

I have always been suspicious of.... and had a great antipathy for..... posts like this on the fora, which suggest to me an attempt to stifle legitimate debate on questionable issues.

I'm disappointed in you, Lots0 - I did not think you would stoop to this sort of not-so-veiled threat.

I was not the one doing the threatening, I was only pointing out that AP has made some not so veiled threats to the accusers.

From the latest Absolute Poker Statement:

Absolute Poker reserves the right to pursue any and all remedies whether in law or equitable which may procure to it as a result of any unlawful and injurious actions taken by any individuals who may have falsified any information, documents, files, or have by other means attempted to disparage and/or harm Absolute Poker, its Players, its current or former management, employees, business partners or affiliates.

I don't know how you read that paragraph of AP's statement, but to me it looks that if GA does not find anything wrong, AP's lawyers are going to be paying some visits.

So no, I was not threatening anyone, just pointing out part of a statement from AP.

I am done posting in this thread. I am Tired of the all the crap and false accusations I'm now getting from some folks just because I did not "fall in line" with them and condemn AP without any real evidence. What really hurts are the jabs and accusations from people that I respect and that should know better.

FYI - there is still NO real evidence, just accusations against AP.
If you think public forum postings are evidence, your intelligence is definitely in question, at least as far as I am concerned.

I'll wait to see the report from Gamingassociates.com. If GA says AP was cheating I'll Rogue them, but only if GA says that the current AP management is involved.

Of course, it looks like some folks are already trying to get into position to make GA look like they are in AP's pocket, even though they are not.

Anyway I'm done.

I'll let the lynch mob continue without my input.

 

[jetset]

QUOTE: So no, I was not threatening anyone, just pointing out part of a statement from AP UNQUOTE

Well, you sure could've fooled me, Lots0!

For the record, I may not agree with your point of view on Absolute Poker in this affair, but I unequivocally support your right to give your opinion and argue your perspective, and I have a real problem with posters who get overly emotional and personal in attacking those who do not share their views or the majority's views.

Edited to add Lots0's "non-threatening" post directed at Pokeraddict:

Quote: Originally Posted by lots0
@Pokeraddict

After rereading the press release from AP... If I were you I would be praying that GA finds something... anything...

Because if they don't it looks like AP's lawyers will be paying you and a few others a visit...Unquote

 

[mussy]

Hey, please don't go yet, lots0. You asked to see the email, and it was sent to you, but you were also supposed to be getting the hand histories from Absolute. Were you not going to compare them? What happened?

 

[thelawnet]

I have seen many of the hands played by Potripper and some of the calls are unbelievable. However, unless he is desparate to finish the tourney early, why couldnt he act like a normal player and fold several poor hands pre-flop just to make it seem a bit more realistic. Not very clever, IMO.

which suggests to me it's not just him. You'd expect some of the cheaters to stay under the radar, but with a big enough group, there'll always be one complete idiot.

 

[thelawnet]

Yeah but, it is in KGC's best interest that everyone comes clean on this.

Besides, there is enough info posted online already that players can use to make their own decisions. This audit is way too late. This should have been done a month ago.

Considering that they are wanting to be considered an approved jurisdiction for UK players, messing this up really isn't too smart.

Using your internal auditor to do an external audit might be considered ok ('because they are really smart guy') in the mickey mouse world of Kahnawake gaming, but in the real world, it simply doesn't wash.

 

[GaryWatson]

If AP prove to be innocent & sue anyone, I want a cut for having their banners on my websites. Then when I collect my % i will be sueing them for tarnishing my sites reputation. Or they can send me a superuser account & I'll pay my own way

 

[The Dude]

Considering that they are wanting to be considered an approved jurisdiction for UK players, messing this up really isn't too smart.

Using your internal auditor to do an external audit might be considered ok ('because they are really smart guy') in the mickey mouse world of Kahnawake gaming, but in the real world, it simply doesn't wash.

The Gaming Association is one thing, and I am curious to see what they come up with. Believe me, there are other people on this, and this next week should be an interesting one

 

[lots0]

Hey, please don't go yet, lots0.

Sorry mussy, I'm outta this public discussion.

PM me and I'll be happy to answer your questions.

 

[pokeraddict]

Sorry mussy, I'm outta this public discussion.

PM me and I'll be happy to answer your questions.

LOL, so you bitch and bitch that you don't like the evidence, that it is all made up and AP is going to come and sue us for all we have. Now you have the originals of several master hh's along with headers and you are off to hide? I wonder why.... There must be more to that.

 

[pokeraddict]

Regulation of online poker rooms in the states will just mean higher licensing fees for a room to start up, which will be passed down to us it the form of higher rake. It will also mean more government interference in the way of our affairs (the irs will inexplicably tax all poker winnings, whether you're a taxpayer or non-taxpayer, whether you're a citizen or foreigner, somewhere during the cashout stage).

Keep in mind that a good chunk of our rake goes towards fraud. If the industry were regulated the funding sources would be much more legit and the fraud would go way down IMO.

 

[lots0]

LOL, so you bitch and bitch that you don't like the evidence, that it is all made up and AP is going to come and sue us for all we have. Now you have the originals of several master hh's along with headers and you are off to hide? I wonder why.... There must be more to that.

I say this with all due respect... Go Fuck yourself pokeraddict.

I am sick of all the constant accusations and innuendos. Thats why I'am quiting this public discussion.

But, you pokeraddict just had to get some more innuendo laid down on me and I just had to answer.

Well If I am any judge of Simmo, this will get me a time out... I deserve it.

 

[Keyser]

lots0's tirade

I was not the one doing the threatening, I was only pointing out that AP has made some not so veiled threats to the accusers.

From the latest Absolute Poker Statement:


I don't know how you read that paragraph of AP's statement, but to me it looks that if GA does not find anything wrong, AP's lawyers are going to be paying some visits.

So no, I was not threatening anyone, just pointing out part of a statement from AP.

I am done posting in this thread. I am Tired of the all the crap and false accusations I'm now getting from some folks just because I did not "fall in line" with them and condemn AP without any real evidence. What really hurts are the jabs and accusations from people that I respect and that should know better.

FYI - there is still NO real evidence, just accusations against AP.
If you think public forum postings are evidence, your intelligence is definitely in question, at least as far as I am concerned.

I'll wait to see the report from Gamingassociates.com. If GA says AP was cheating I'll Rogue them, but only if GA says that the current AP management is involved.

Of course, it looks like some folks are already trying to get into position to make GA look like they are in AP's pocket, even though they are not.

Anyway I'm done.

I'll let the lynch mob continue without my input.

You have actually had access to lots of evidence, in the forms of hand histories and player accounts of what happened. You may not think this evidence is conclusive, you may not be satisfied that the evidence is not forged, you may not be satisfied that it proves what the accusers claim it proves, but don't sit there and pretend that you have had no evidence, that every accusation is pure conjecture.

Furthermore, I bet if the person who sent you the Excel file knew you were going to react this way, considering all of the personal info that is on there, they never would have sent it to you.

Lastly, while I dont think you were threatening anyone directly when you brought up the whole thing about lawsuits coming if AP is exonerated by the firm they hired, you certainly were trying to stifle debate.

 

[Simmo!]

blah blah blah

Well If I am any judge of Simmo, this will get me a time out... I deserve it.

You're a good judge of my character at least - 14 days

 

[thelawnet]

The Gaming Association is one thing, and I am curious to see what they come up with. Believe me, there are other people on this, and this next week should be an interesting one

I did actually email the Minister, explaining how Kahnawake had failed to take action against Golden Palace's sabotage of the Olympics, the non-action against the Jackpot Factory SEO stuff ('online slots cured my arthritis', etc.), its status as a refuge for the likes of the Crystal Palace group, and in particular its antics in relation to an underage player (something that is supposed to be a primary concern of licensees), and of the obsessive gambler whose winnings were confiscated (again, supposed to be a primary concern of licensees to support problem gamblers), and the fact that Kahnawake simply does not respond to complaints.

I received only a non-commital response, two months later, which read, in part, "we will be stringently assessing the effectiveness and integrity of the regulators in those jurisdictions [Kahnawake and Antigua] before allowing their operators to advertise within the UK"

 

[pokeraddict]

I am sick of all the constant accusations and innuendos.

So are those of us spending all of our time to get this story out and investigate. You have everything you have asked for and each time you are still not satisified. Please drop the language, there is no reason to be so abusive. I am trying my best to do a service to those here that do not want to follow the hundreds of pages of threads at 2+2/P5's and NWP.

Guess I type slow sometimes. I see he is on vacation now.

 

[GaryWatson]

Unban lots0

He may have stepped over the line with the name calling, but thats it. Controversial thread. Give him his due & lets make this as unbiased as we can.

 

[pokeraddict]

The entire community owes a huge thank you to Crazymarco, Nat, Adanthar, JoseM and countless others that have helped compile the proof needed to expose the rogue acts that have taken place at Absolute Poker. These people may have saved the poker community hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more if it had been allowed to continue. The ball is now in AP's court if they want to make this as close to right as they can.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The entire community owes a huge thank you to Crazymarco, Nat, Adanthar, JoseM and countless others that have helped compile the proof needed to expose the rogue acts that have taken place at Absolute Poker. These people may have saved the poker community hundreds of thousands of dollars if not more if it had been allowed to continue. The ball is now in AP's court if they want to make this as close to right as they can.

Who wants to bet that the final straw was the page added earlier today by The Wizard of Odds? They probably saw that and decided it was time to come clean.

In any event... congrats to everyone who was involved in busting this case wide open.

 

[Pinababy69]

I am trying my best to do a service to those here that do not want to follow the hundreds of pages of threads at 2+2/P5's and NWP.

And I think you've done an outstanding job Pokeraddict. If not for you, I never would have even been able to "grasp" this whole thing. And your forum is mind boggling to me, lol. As quick as you get through reading one page, four more have been added to the thread.

So, at least on my part, thanks very much.

Who wants to bet that the final straw was the page added earlier today by The Wizard of Odds? They probably saw that and decided it was time to come clean.

You could be onto something there SW. That and Bryan's post a couple of pages back saying that more people were involved in it now. I think alot more went on here behind the scenes, involving a few different people, and we may never know.

I am a bit shocked that AP has decided to come clean, but am ecstatic about it. I think it is exactly what they should do. People can be very forgiving, if the accused parties would only come clean. It is a big first step in the right direction.

Edited to add: As Pokeraddict mentioned, kudos and thanks to everyone he listed in his post above. Absolutely outstanding work and dogged determination.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The true test of their character will be not only what the statement says, but how they go about publicizing it. Are they only going to send it to the forums (and auditors, etc.), or are they going to do the right thing and put a notice (or link to it) in an obvious place on their home page so that even the unaware (if there are any) can know what happened as well?

There's a great quote on page 3 of that Pocket Fives link which I won't steal but it basically says that we really shouldn't be applauding them for finally being truthful; they should have been truthful from the beginning.

 

[Pinababy69]

The true test of their character will be not only what the statement says, but how they go about publicizing it. Are they only going to send it to the forums (and auditors, etc.), or are they going to do the right thing and put a notice (or link to it) in an obvious place on their home page so that even the unaware (if there are any) can know what happened as well?

There's a great quote on page 3 of that Pocket Fives link which I won't steal but it basically says that we really shouldn't be applauding them for finally being truthful; they should have been truthful from the beginning.

LOL SW, that sounds familiar. Isn't that what alot of us screamed for with the JPF SEO fiasco last year? Full admission of culpability, and having it publicized on more than just forums.

I see alot of similiarities between these two cases.

And yeah, that P5 quote is very appropriate. But I still think it's a good first step. Not all who are caught doing something dirty or underhanded will ever come clean. Let's see where they go with it from here.

 

[Jstyal]

Keep in mind that a good chunk of our rake goes towards fraud. If the industry were regulated the funding sources would be much more legit and the fraud would go way down IMO.

Well that's interesting and certainly debatable. For instance, sites like Neteller were legit and reputable, and look at Pokerstars--they have done an awesome job so far in cracking down on bots, fraud, and providing us with excellent customer service. The legitimacy, trustworthiness, reputability we seek is already there imo. How else would have Neteller and Pokerstars become #1 in their respective fields if this wasn't the case.

Interesting topic nevertheless. And I hope i didn't derail this thread too much. Back to the business on hand.

 

[Jstyal]

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To any of those that still had any doubts click the above link. AP has confessed. I guess I don't have to worry about getting sued now.

This is excellent news. The big media outlets were getting in on this. It was just a matter of time before they came clean. What a fantastic player and player advocacy community we have.

 

[pokeraddict]

Well that's interesting but certainly debatable. Sites like Neteller were legit and reputable, and look at Pokerstars--they have done an awesome job so far in cracking down on bots, fraud, and providing us with excellent customer service. The legitimacy, trustworthiness, reputability we seek is already there imo. How else would have Neteller and Pokerstars become #1 in their respective fields if this wasn't the case.

Interesting topic nevertheless. And I hope i didn't derail this thread too much. Back to the business on hand.

IMO the funding sources for US players would be more secure then they are now. FWIW Neteller had/has tons of problems with fraud. People would use instacash and not have the money in their bank or simply charge back losses. This does not include the more traditional identity theft fraud.

It's just my opinion more legit and secure payment options would be available in a regulated market.

 

[Jstyal]

IMO the funding sources for US players would be more secure then they are now. FWIW Neteller had/has tons of problems with fraud. People would use instacash and not have the money in their bank or simply charge back losses. This does not include the more traditional identity theft fraud.

It's just my opinion more legit and secure payment options would be available in a regulated market.

Can you define what you mean by regulated market? Are you talking about regulating online poker rooms? Internet casinos? The web wallets? Are you talking about regulation at the federal level or the state level or both?

FWIW if you're talking about regulating the web wallets: Remember that the American Paypal has been unregulated for years because even the feds say they don't have to adhere to federal banking regulations. Their service doesn't fall under the federal legal definition of a bank, hence the regulations do not apply to them. If Paypal isn't regulated, then a Neteller type service operating similarly to Paypal in the states wouldn't be regulated at the federal level either.

That's not to say the states themselves cannot regulate these payment solutions any which they want. They can, individually. But they haven't so far with Paypal...and Paypal still decided, even without the burden of following federal regulations, to stop processing gambling transactions altogether.

 

[The Dude]

Well this is great news, not that AP's systems were compromised, but that they actually had taken this incident seriously and are putting an end to this episode.

Who needs regulation when we have players that can produce evidence and convincing arguments? I want to thank everyone who presented these arguments in a clear and concise manner. And yes, I knew that the Wizard was dealing with this. I'm not about to steal his thunder.

I don't think we have heard the end of it though, but I am elated that AP is recognizing that 99% of their players can't be wrong.

 

[fatshaft]

Unban lots0

He may have stepped over the line with the name calling, but thats it. Controversial thread. Give him his due & lets make this as unbiased as we can.

I'm with Gary. It may be a bit like rubber necking a car crash, but I would like to see what he has to say now, he was after all their only defender.

As for Absolute, at least they have owned up, but their anti-fraud and collusion people must be either totally corrupt, or completely incompetent.

 

[The Dude]

ADMIN NOTE: Thread cleanup

I'm upgrading this thread to closed since there is another thread in the forum that has the more recent developments. This thread was mostly a discussion on whether or not there was cheating going on. AP now has apparently admitted this.

The new thread is here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...evidence-near-certain-proof-its-rigged.20630/

If you feel that any of the postings here should be moved to the new thread, please let me or Simmo! know via PM.