Major Absolute Poker Issue

[SeattleSinner]

I was just reading in the 2+2 forums that many players who play graycat, steamroller, and doubledrag on Absolute Poker have been noticing some weird activity which may even involve seeing opponents cards. Here is a link to the thread which you may want to check out:

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[pokeraddict]

Thanks for the link. I've never trusted the high limits there, never could put a finger on why. I wonder if this is why Calvinhobbes got raped so bad after the BBJ win. FWIW I have Steamroller as a massive loser in my PT although it is at much lower limits.

 

[The Ronin]

If the allegations are true, this could set the poker industry back 10 yrs.

It appears to be some rich folks playing loose, and some well seasoned pros, getting pissed because they are losing, when in their minds they should be getting rich from the high stakes donkeys. You can data mine almost any poker player, and come up with scenarios exhibiting peculiar activity. And if that peculiar activity results in an amazing win, or perfectly timed fold, well you could interpret the action as cheating, or worse I.E. a hack able to see your hole cards.

You can't have it both ways. You can't jump on a jaded newbie who posts that all poker rooms are "rigged" and assure him he is just a donkey, the poker rooms are safe. Then buy into the "pros" who play $150-$300 Limit, when they say it is rigged, and the opponents can see their hole cards.

I read the entire thread at 2+2, and am not convinced that the players can see the hole cards. Possibly could be the same person, playing 2 seats. Possibly.

Just my opinion of course

 

[pokeraddict]

The obvious HU chip dumping is the biggest concern. It would lead one to believe there was a team or fraudulant money on the site. I'm not convinced either, especially since one of the players mentioned is a massive loser in my PT database. I always felt there were some odd things in their higher stakes games though but not to the extreme being discussed.

 

[pokeraddict]

I have seen damning evidence that convinces me AP has been using house players or have rogue software developers that have left a back door to exploit. I strongly advise all to run from AP as fast as you can. This evidence has been slowly coming public all day.

 

[GaryWatson]

I have one session that was impossible to explain, lottery odds dont go that far.

I have tracked a crazy winning tourney player, who cleaned up for a week only to find out he wasnt registered.

Both cases at the same site, a reputable site. I was banned for sending in hand records to be checked.

In general it is fine, I have sat next to colluders & have generally spotted them, this is a totally different thing & this thing can only come from inhouse.

 

[GaryWatson]

The biggest worry for any live player is that on the internet, someone, somwhere can see your hole cards. Hell I advertise sites. Its crushing if it is true with a big site.

I did an investigation over the hole card thing a while back

Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)

Now the only way this could happen if it is inhouse or someone screwing with his group of high stakes friends PC's

 

[pokeraddict]

The orignal thread has been locked into the mod forum while 2+2 decided what to do. It has mind boggling evidence that will come out shortly such as the players involved never called on the river, they either folded or raised. They also had impossible W$@SD stats. Here is a link to another thread at 2+2 that has popped up from a different set of mods that felt the need to make this public and keep it public.

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[GaryWatson]

Iv gotta say a lotta the hands are above my head, as in loose. But a lot seemed a little too clear. Hearing Shneids talking (was he not the youngest ever aussie millions winner?) he was very too the point on a few things & they made sense.

What I get from the old thread is that someone has done something but they never waited for a real experienced player to cover their tracks

 

[pokeraddict]

Serious Accusations Against Absolute Poker

This has been getting talked about a little in "Poker Complaints" here but IMO this is far more serious and needed attention since I'm sure most or at least many here don't read that forum.

At 2+2 there is a lengthy thread discussing how there are obvious player cheats playing the highest stakes at AP.

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Many believe these cheats are Absolute Poker insiders. At the very least the cheating has been going on either undetected or endorsed by AP. The estimates of the money stolen by the cheats run anywhere from $300,000-$700,000.

This is a very serious issue. This is not an "Online poker is rigged" thread. This thread is serious. People have been caught obviously cheating and are either AP employees or AP's security is so bad it took players to bring proof public because AP ignored the many emails about the players. There is ample prof in the above thread that there is cheating.

The accusations are that these players can see all player's hole cards. The many hand histories collected show the cheats have an infinite or almost infinite aggression factor, especially on the river. This means they never or almost never call or check on the river, they either bet, fold or raise. This is the most signifigant piece of evidence. Since there are no more cards to draw for at the river the player that can see hole cards would know whether he can win or not and whether he can knock off the other player on an overbet bluff. It is also important to mention that the reason the AF might not be infinite in some player's Poker Tracker's is because if a player pushed all in then the cheat could only call.

The cheats have never lost a river bet either. They also flop almost every hand unless a big pocket pair raises big preflop. Hand after hand that has been compiled shows that the cheats almost never put money in from behind and almost never called anything. They would either bet, raise or fold.

A few devil advocate's state this player could be on a super hot run. The problem is that the stats are simply impossible. On top of that these players have been seen doing some shady things in heads up games among themselves.

Read the thread for yourself and form your own opinion. If you are not familiar with Poker Tracker and poker terms you may get lost in the talk. This is why I tried to explain some of it here.

I've been very hard on Absolute Poker this year. They have been very dishonest this year with players and affiliates alike. They have also been on a sick spam campaign. Before this incident Absolute Poker and Ultimate Bet (AP owns them) have destroyed their reputation in the industry. That is part of what makes them being involved so much more believable.

This story broke midweek and to this point Absolute Poker has ignored the endless emails from players asking for comments. Also AP has spammed 2+2 endlessly this year but to this point has not bothered to reply in the thread to at least try to save some face here.

Although it is obvious to virtually everybody these players were cheats the question remains how involved Absolute Poker is. Were the players employees/management or is the security at AP so bad they could not catch players stealing hundreds of thousands of dollars over the course of months, even when players constantly notified them something was wrong? Either way this could destroy Absolute Poker. It is likely to be covered by some if not all poker print media.

With my very negative feelings towards Absolue Poker over their past dishonesty I have tried to keep my opinion out of the above but I will say that I agree with the many players that feel AP is in on this. They have been so dishonest this year it is hard to think they would not do such a thing, especially since they have ignored player emails about it. Even if it is a security breach shame on them for letting it go on for so long. They have tarnished the reputation of the entire industry and maybe destroyed their business.

 

[Swede]

The estimates of the money stolen by the cheats run anywhere from $300,000-$700,000.

I just finished reading the whole thread, it's getting a bit big. Isn't it possible these numbers could be even higher?

 

[pokeraddict]

I just finished reading the whole thread, it's getting a bit big. Isn't it possible these numbers could be even higher?

Certainly, the amount stolen will be almost impossible to figure out. Adanthar is trying to gather all possible hand histories to figure out how much has been stolen. The real question is what AP will do. The players deserve their money back and every day AP hides is one more day of losing what little is left of their reputation. If it turns out AP's security is terrible then maybe they can seize some or most of these funds and redistribute them. If it turns out that Absolute Poker has been stealing then there is no telling what might happen. Who know, if they have been involved in this then they could close shop and run off with all the money. Regardless I can't think of a worse place to put your bankroll right now.

It's ironic that AP was pushing their 9% interest for Elite VIP's trying to attract the type of player that would have been taken in this scam. Many were very skeptical about that offer, now many wonder including myself if that was a way to get people into these cheating games.

 

[pokeraddict]

The original thread got too big and got locked so here are some good cliff notes and the new thread.

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[lots0]

There is NO PROOF, only accusations.

The idea of a AP 'super user' account with access to their opponents hole cards, that is approved by AP management seems to me a lot like an idea that someone on crack would think up...

I think what some are calling "proof" is outrageous... a couple of play by play hands posted on forum (by who?) and it is now incontrovertibly proof? Come on...

Let me ask you all one question:
Why would AP Management allow this kind of thing to go on when as soon as it was discovered (and proven) it would all be over for AP, they would be out of business? Why would AP risk it all so one or two players (or even ten or twenty) can score big at the higher limit games??? Why risk millions and millions and millions a year in profits so a few players can make a few hundred thousand???

Now if the theory was that AP's software could be cracked by a team of hackers from Albania, that might be more believable, but only a little more...

pokeraddict, I don't understand, In previous threads where you trashed AP you said you had not played at Absolute Poker in years and years... So what's your beef with AP this month? Didn't you say last month AP was cheating on the rakes? or was that the month before that or the month before that??

 

[Mousey]

I know I don't stay abreast of all things Poker, but... I'm having a very strong feeling of deja vu ... Wasn't this same sort of suspicion/conclusion/accusation discussed at length at that forum a couple of months ago -- but with another poker room as the subject of concern? If so, whatever became of that?

 

[pokeraddict]

pokeraddict, I don't understand, In previous threads where you trashed AP you said you had not played at Absolute Poker in years and years... So what's your beef with AP this month? Didn't you say last month AP was cheating on the rakes? or was that the month before that or the month before that??

If by reading the endless hh's and seeing the PT screenshots with his infinite AF and his and other's impossible stats you are not a believer then I do not think you understand how to read hh's and Poker Tracker.

This is not a vendetta by any means. This is a VERY VERY serious problem that AP still has yet to address and has had ample time to do so. The PT screenshots are proof, if that is not convincing those accounts are cheats I can't think of what you would need to believe it. My guess is that you have never used PT and don't understand things like AF and that a 94/72 with overall AF of over 10 is never going to produce like that even over the smallest of samples. Also how did these players never lose a river after only raising, betting or folding?

My problems with AP dates back about a year. AP has cheated players on pending bonuses by changing terms while player cleared them, cheated affiliates on payments by changing agreements already entered into and cheated players on rakeback. On top of that they have been on a massive spam/shill campaign at a forum I moderate. Add to this the endless changes to the BBJ that affect players that have already contributed and you already have what I feel is a shady poker room. None of these have anything to do with posting a link to the thread at 2+2 with damning evidence that players are cheating at AP and that AP is either involved or has let it go on. They have also ignored many emails from players both before and after this came out about these players. You will see that I do not just take cheap shots at AP. Even in this forum you will see me help players with small problems with AP and even defend them to some extent. AP is mentioned all the time in a forum I moderate and I never trash them there either.

If you want to ignore the fact that a player cannot have an infinite AF in a fair game or that a player cannot win 30BB/100 while playing 94/72 and winning almost 100% at the showdown then that is your choice. Also the cheating accounts are 300ptbb/100 in $2000 NL with almost identical stats.

What is so funny is that one of the accounts just dumped $27,000 in 10/20 NL in what is a classic chip dump. In one hand he called an allin with an unmatched 34.

Whether you believe this or not I would have posted this no matter what poker room it was. The fact it involves a poker room I've called out many times for being shady really only proves I've been right about them all along doesn't it? Keep in mind I was not the first to post about it here or any other public forum (there is a small private forum I let other members know). This is a very important industry development, not just some gossip. IMO and virtually every other poker player's opinion the stats these players show in PT are impossible in a fair game and AP is at the very least incompetent and likely much worse IMO. If you don't believe there is cheating going after all the evidence posted in all those 2+2 threads then I don't think anything will ever convince you. That's the great thing about places like this, we can all speak our mind and draw our own conclusions.

 

[Zoozie]

If you want to ignore the fact that a player cannot have an infinite AF in a fair game or that a player cannot win 30BB/100 while playing 94/72 and winning almost 100% at the showdown then that is your choice. Also the cheating accounts are 300ptbb/100 in $2000 NL with almost identical stats.

I have read the whole thread. Unless the PT screenshots are fake which I doubt since they come from several known pro's - there is no shadow of doubt that rigged games is happening. Not just slightly rigged, but rigged so bad it is too obvious, which is hard to explain why they would cheat this much.

Noone can be 'crushing' the game at that impossible BB/100 hand rate with those PT stats.(or even with 'normal' PT stats) The 3 players (or same with different aliases) has been doing that both against the best FL players and NL players.

The outcome of this thread will be interesting and it seems the 2+2 forum administration (poker guru's) will look into it. It will either the be greatest hoax or poker disaster in many years.

 

[The Dude]

I've asked Absolute Poker to respond to this thread. Hopefully they will

 

[pokeraddict]

I've asked Absolute Poker to respond to this thread. Hopefully they will

For 5 days or so AP has been nagged to respond and has not. One of the suspect accounts was even playing tonight dumping insane amount of chips. One hand he called an unimproved 34 for $1700. The 34 was the worst or second worst possible hand. There were many other oddities not consistant with the player's stats. People were outing him at the table for being a cheat too. It was one of the oddest things I've seen in online poker. He dumped tens of thousands of dollars seemingly intent on dumping his stacks.

Whatever the deal is they are nuts for not locking this account or at least renaming him if they really feel nothing is wrong. To have one of these accused accounts playing with the overwhelming evidence against them leaves most of the poker community scratching its heads. This is of course a very hot topic on most poker fora. It's not going away any time soon.

 

[GaryWatson]

AP's style is to sweep things under the carpet. On this occasion however, I cannot see how they can respond. I dont buy into the idea that an outsider hacked into the system. AP would have flagged these accounts well before now. I cant imagine their high stakes players sticking around either way.

They really need to be investigated. I had question marks over them for other issues but this could kill online poker quicker than any gambling bill.

Mud sticks but this seems to be more than just a rumor. Ive heard all the rigged stories before and they can usually be explained away, but this?

 

[SlotsWizard]

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[The Ronin]

This is really disturbing, one could make the connection, that if AP is using "house players" to cheat and win, that other poker rooms will do the same. Or worse, have been doing so for a long time.

This type of behavior will certainly not help the argument of revising the Unlawful internet gaming enforcement act. Not to mention player confidence.

I look forward to seeing the evidence. I also hope it can be compressed so new players can understand it quickly.

 

[The Ronin]

i just don't get one thing. does this mean someone FROM absolute is using this account for their own benefit? or to make money for the site? or what? i don't get who is accessing the accounts / whether this implies that anyone could somehow make a "superuser account" (this [censored] is getting way too james bond).

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bknollenberg from 2+2 asked this question, and I have to echo it. Is AP hurting so bad, they need to rip off high stakes players just to make the rent payment They just started that high interest plan for premium players, even though it is a total joke since you would have to practically live on AP in order to keep your monthly standing. So why start something like that?

This is getting really confusing

 

[lots0]

Yes I agree,

This is getting really confusing...

Because, this this entire idea makes no sense at all.

First - Why would AP risk everything for a few players?

Second - The so called "proof" shown at the other forum... does NOT prove anything.

Maybe this is nothing but a scam being played on AP by those self proclaimed "pros" that listed those hands at the other forum...

P>S> as far as AP hurting for money... MY understanding (as an Affiliate of AP's) is that AP's profits have gone thru the roof because the competition for US players has been drastically reduced since Oct 13 2006...

 

[The Watchdog]

The whole issue is just amusing...

Do people really buy that crap? come on.. I have worked for playtech, tribeca, and other proprietary software companies and the whole idea of a super account (like mentioned on 2+2) is just hilarious....

There is only 1 way of cheating in poker and is through collusion.. period...

A big operation such as AP or any other site will never risk their reputation by allowing such practice.

As a matter of fact, from the hundreds of poker sites operating in costa rica, I have only seen 2 sites which use house players playing on same tables to cheat customers... one of them is already out of business.

Never the less, you guys who know the industry are aware that no one will invest the time or efforts in doing such thing.

What I believe is that some serious highrollers lost some money to a donkey and now are pissed.

Well, anyways... too bad american players can't play at Titan ... best site ever

 

[pokeraddict]

Second - The so called "proof" shown at the other forum... does NOT prove anything.

It seems from a 2+2 thread most of the non believers do not use Poker Tracker and all of the Poker Tracker users are 100% believers. This leads me to believe the stats might need more explaining to help non PT users fully understand.

One cheat account has stats of 94/72 with overall aggression factors over 20 with river AF's that cannot be calculated because he never calls, he only folds or raises. He is winning 32BB/100 in limit and 311ptbb/100 in NL. So what does all this mean?

The first stat I show as 94 means that a player puts money in the pot preflop 94% of the time. It is safe to say that 5 of the other 6% are unraised big blinds so this means the player is flopping 99% of the time. Out of 100 hands he only flops once, maybe twice before the flop. In one 100 hand sample this player folded 3 times. Once a player held AA, another time a player held QQ and a 3rd time it had been 3 bet when it got to him. In the third hand no hands were shown so it cannot be determined what he or the other 2 players had.

The 72 refers to his preflop raise %. So not only is he flopping virtually every hand (unless another player has a monster) he is raising preflop 72% of the time. Since he seems to play an average of 4.5 players per hand he is raising roughly every time each orbit except once.

The 32bb/100 in limit refers to a win rate of 32 big bets per 100 hands. In the limits where these accusations have been made this would mean that every 100 hands this particular player is winning an astonishing $9600. The 311ptbb/100 is slightly different then limit. 1 ptbb is double the big blind in NL. This player is playing 10/20 NL. His win rate per 100 hands in NL is $12,440. A good player might win 5bb/100 and 10ptbb/100. Even 100 hands would be a big enough sample to know something was up. To put it in a more normal stake formula this would be like winning over $1200 in an hour of 1/2 NL and being able to do it consistently. With the posted PT's this would mean for you to mimic the same results in a 10 hour day you would have to win over $12,000 in 1/2 NL. That's right, over a $12,000 win in a day long $2 big blind NL game. If you use PT find 1 player with 50+ hands that has these stats or better. It's simple you can't, especially the infinite river AF. You probably can't find a player with win rates half that with over 50 hands and with 1000 hands you will certainly not.

Also this players W$atSD (won money at showdown) is over 90% and keep in mind none of these losses are with him calling a second best hand. All the losses are from players going all in before the river or from a handful of cheat open checks and op checks. Since he can see others cards why would he call a loser? He either has you beat or he doesn't.

How is this player flopping every hand, raising almost every hand preflop, winning every showdown he puts money in the pot for and taking the iggest winrate in history? There's only 1 answer. Any poker player knows a 94/72 player is a total maniac fish that is going to go bust very quickly.

Combine this with the massive chip dump last night of roughly $30,000 calling hands like an unimproved 34 on the river for $1700 while getting accused left and right for previous cheating and the fact AP is ignoring everybody demanding an immediate statement is really damning. Why hasn't AP locked these accounts yet? Why has AP ignored players since even before this went public? One of these players chip dumped an entire bankroll midweek last week. That's why this finally broke. Why would AP allow that?

If all of this does not convince you what will?

FWIW I have not been taken for anything. I simply posted about this because this is a very serious situation that needs to be addressed by AP and needs to be recognized by the entire industry. Either they have been hacked or they have been cheating. If they were hacked and have still done nothing, not even lock accounts then they have really screwed up. If they are in on it then they have ruined their business. There are many that believe Mark Seif is involved. I think that is far fetched but the more AP ignores this the more speculation that will come out. Mark Seif has been accused of this very thing in the past at AP even though that evidence did not have any facts unlike the mountain of evidence here.

Believe the facts or dismiss them as made up if you choose. The only way I can see how one could dismiss these allegations is if they believe all of facts are made up, not because multiple players can play like that and win even a little, much less an absolute fortune in one of the highest limit games online against some of the biggest names in online poker. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though.

 

[pokeraddict]

The Watchdog,

Funny to see you here.

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Why are 10/11 of your posts at 2+2 Absolute Poker related? You've already been called out there by the internet gambling mod for shilling Absolute Poker and having a related account to 2 other Absolute Poker spammers, at least one of them is in upper management of Absolute Entertainment. This is what I mean about the shill/spam campaigns Absolute Poker has been on at 2+2.

 

[pokeraddict]

Mark Seif responds. IMO opinion he had nothing to do with it anyway. As he mentions he has lost a ton of cash there. He's right, he could very well be a victim too.

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i was just made aware of these serious allegations this morning while playing at the wpt event at the borgata, where i am presently. while i have not had a chance to investigate this matter, i can tell you and anyone else who believes or for whatever reason has stated that i am somehow involved in this matter, unequivocally, i do not now, nor have i ever, had the ability to see hole cards on any poker site i have ever played at including absolute poker.

i doubt my results would be what they are if i had the ability to see my opponents' hole cards. in fact, i am almost certainly the biggest all-time loser on the site and have been crushed in the big games for a long, very long time. if anything, i would very much like this matter thoroughly investigated so that we can all find out what has happened, and if appropriate, to take swift remedial action such as seizing funds and returning them to the players cheated, including myself, if in fact, ap's security protections have been compromised.

 

[EasyRhino]

I'm confused, why would the cheats be dumping chips?

 

[BBKPoker]

As a former pre-UGIEA high-stakes limit and no limit pro, I have to say the evidence is somewhat damning, but lets go by issues:

1.) Issue one, blatant chip-dumping in highstakes NL games. There have been 3-4 hand histories of several thousand dollar hands where on the river, player A bets everything aside from $1. Player B raises and Player A folds. This is just blatant chip-dumping and obvious fraud. There is no legitimate poker explanation, and for stakes this high, I really cannot believe this was an accidental misclick for thousands more than one time. Frankly, this kind of activity with this much money is enough of a red flag to me that I will almost certainly never play at Absolute again.

2.) The Pokertracker stats are pretty damning. The one caveat I really have here, is that the sample sizes I've seen posted on 2+2 and in other threads are only running 3-500 hands deep. I think that it is probably possible that a player could cherry pick the right hand histories to create what looks like an unreasonable set of stats, but it would be fairly unlikely. If players had this kind of sample size over something like 5,000 hands I think it would be inarguable that it is not legitimate poker. What is particularly alarming and Absolute will need to clear up is:

a.) river aggression stats I've seen are pretty much impossible. One player over 500 hands had an actual infinite river aggression factor. That means he literally raises or folds on every single river, and supports very strongly the claim that he is able to view an opponents hole cards. On the river he knows 100% whether he has the player beat or whether the player likely has so bad of a hand that they pretty much can't call a river raise.

b.) Some of the accounts I've watched have made extremely strange preflop actions that only make sense if they could see other cards. For example, a hand history where in a 150/300 6-handed short game, a player open calls with 10/10 in middle position. 10/10 is a no-brainer raise when you are opening a pot from any position in six-max. The Small blind coincidentally had pocket aces this hand which seems to me like he knows that if he flops a ten, he can smash the pocket aces and if he misses on the flop he will have no problem knowing where he is at in the hand and folding. Lots of equity here. Another example, a player open limps q/10 suited on the button when the small blind has pocket aces again. A huge part of short-handed preflop play is the folding equity you gain from raising a wider range of hands because the overall hand strength is much lower, and you are additionally forcing people behind you out making for larger pots where you are essentially in control of the hand by being in position. Limping on the button with almost anything doesn't really make sense unless you are specifically trying to trap the blinds and let them see a cheap flop when you have a big pair.

c.) the NL stats and hand histories I have show some ridiculous calls with hands such as ten high, jack high, etc to win very large pots in situations where no high stakes player could call regardless of the strength of their read. I could see calling with ace and king high in a few situations, but even when you have a particularly strong read, there is essentially no situation in which you can legitimately think your ten high is the best hand and call down a pot-sized bet.

With those three very glaring problems, I'd say I'm leaning about 85/15 towards absolute being rigged vs not rigged, and I'm pretty much the last online gambling is rigged theorist you could possibly find. I've dressed down a number of people for claiming casinos have rigged blackjack and the like on well-known and regulated software, but this looks like a legitimate problem. I think another explanation is simply that there are super-user accounts used for admin and security purposes by the company (to check for collusion, chip dumping, etc) and somehow players either hacked their way into obtaining one, or they are working with someone in absolute security who changed the security level setting to that of a security worker.

That being said, I have fairly intimate knowledge that at least Poker Stars is specifically not rigged.

 

[SlotsWizard]

I'm confused, why would the cheats be dumping chips?

To try to make it look like they aren't cheaters who never lose.

But an infinite aggression factor is, for all intents and purposes, impossible, so the chip-dumping is too little too late.

For Absolute Poker to not do or say anything about this speaks volumes about their credibility.

 

[pokeraddict]

I started this thread since I'm sure many don't read the poker complaints forums. Here is the first thread at CM about this.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/major-absolute-poker-issue.19995/

I'm confused, why would the cheats be dumping chips?

Also in case they get caught cheating it may be another way to get the money out.

 

[winbig]

all of 1 and 2c are damning enough....I'm glad I closed my account there months ago.

 

[gerilege]

I couldn't read all the threads, but two questions came to my mind:
Why the hacked PT explanation was not discussed further? I recall that the PT site was hacked, and I trojan with a PT patch could explain the hole cards.
Would not a 100% VPIP player be destined to lose even in case he knows all of his 5 opponents' hole cards? I think it's a close one because of his implied odds and rebluff calls and raises, but still, against 5 opponents playing correctly, he can't hit his hands that often... And since almost all 6max pots are raised/reraised preflop, he should lose enough equity preflop to compensate cases when both he and his opponents miss the flop/turn (or he hits third pair when his opponent misses). I guess those are the cases in limit holdem when he could use his knowledge...

 

[GaryWatson]

AP's response

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The players and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other players hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

Im not going to bother questioning it. Im sure the high stakes players will work it out among themselves whether or not they can trust the site, time will tell but I'll use that as my indication.

 

[jetset]

Looks like this is starting to hit the news....

Looks as if this issue is starting to hit the news.....

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[GaryWatson]

pokernews is just a website, rehashing what is coming from the forums. Now if it was a public statement coming from a gaming commission or something I would take note

 

[lots0]

Gary, Thanks for posting that letter from Absolute Poker.

There were some on this board that acted like AP was ignoring these accusations. Most of us knew that was not true.

I do think your correct, that the high stakes Players will sort this out themselves, after all it is their money.

Side Note: I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP. This is something that I believe needs to end immediately, for the benefit of ALL online players.

Or

If AP does not want to restrict access to poker tracker, then it should clearly provide the information on its front page or sign up page that this type of software is available (for a price) and that AP allows it's use FOR ALL PLAYERS.

 

[jetset]

pokernews is just a website, rehashing what is coming from the forums. Now if it was a public statement coming from a gaming commission or something I would take note

I fear you may be missing the point here, and that is that this issue is now breaking out of the fora and into the news, which is a significant development.

And it would appear from the content of the report that Absolute Poker have issued a statement of sorts, and that an investigation is continuing.

I think they may have to do better than that as this report gathers momentum.

 

[lots0]

I have to agree with Gary here, that UK Pokernews is really not a news provider and that article was NOT written using the JOURNALISTIC CODE that has been adopted by news agencies and Journalists since the end of the 2nd World War.

And having two threads on the same subject is very very annoying...

The other thread has has a response from Absolute Poker.

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out. Kinda like chicken little, running around yelling that the sky is falling.

 

[jetset]

For the record

For the record (in this thread) here's the Absolute response to which Lots0 refers, dated today and from the other thread on this topic (I agree - two threads on the same topic can be distracting, but it happens on occasion!)

QUOTE:

Hi All,

Thank you for your patience in this urgent issue.

Let me start off by stating in 100% confidence that, fair play and security is of paramount importance to Absolute Poker. We have temporarily frozen accounts that have been brought to our attention while we perform an extensive investigation.

While we are continuing with our investigation, we have yet to find any evidence of wrong doing. Our game client only receives data regarding the individuals hand and no other players hole cards, except in the event of a showdown.

The players and their respective actions that are in question, all come from a small sample of Hands. We have researched their play exhaustively and have found no proof that they had any knowledge of other players hole cards.

There were hands that were played poorly -- from a poker strategy perspective -- and these players did receive a fortunate result.
So far we have no evidence that substantiates claims that any of the players were involved in chip dumping, or any other improper activity.

Because of the seriousness of these allegations, we have not closed the investigation and are continuing to look very closely into this matter.We will notify you if we obtain any new information regarding these claims.

Kindest Regards,
Danielle

UNQUOTE

Seems to me that this is the same response which the Poker News article has included in its report for balance...and there's no denying that this is a topic that is being widely debated here and on other fora.

 

[The Dude]

As noted, more than one thread is confusing - thus they are merged

and so it goes...

 

[pokeraddict]

As noted, more than one thread is confusing - thus they are merged

and so it goes...

Sorry, I posted it to let others know since this is such a slow forum. I see now it was a bad idea. It is however important for all to see what is going on. I could have done that in a better way.

I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP.

I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google. Poker Tracker is a software that tracks hands from hand histories you receive from hands you have played or watched. The following sites knowingly allow Poker Tracker to be used on their site. It is far from a cheating software.

Absolute Poker, Party Poker, Poker Stars, Ultimate Bet, Full Tilt Poker, Pacific Poker, CryptoLogic Network, iPoker Network, Prima Network, Ladbrokes, Everest Poker, B2B Network, Ongame, World Poker Exchange, Bodog and Betfair. These sites all have designed hand histories to be compatible with many tracking programs. I don't like it either but it is far from cheating. Poker Tracker alsio helps protect players against cheats and when situations like this come up cheating can be obvious and cheaters can be punished. Without Poker Tracker this cheating could have gone on forever.

Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year (and w/o the UIGEA the biggest story in 5 years) to the community. I'm confused as to why. You even go so far as go to other Absolute threads and call out a poster that had his account locked and even came back to say all was resolved. Why?

Maybe the reason it is spreading is there are is at least one person that has decided to spread this rumor everywhere online gamblers hang out.

This is obviously far from a rumor.

There were some on this board that acted like AP was ignoring these accusations. Most of us knew that was not true.

Oh? Why was a cheating account chip dumping 4 days after this story broke? Why did AP ignore emails both before and after the story broke? How can AP say nothing odd has been seen when many players have emailed hh's from an obvious chip dumping session?

Like I said if you choose to decide the screenshots and hand histories are fake that is your choice. I've posted several times this year why IMO Absolute Poker is a shady poker room. I guess this is why this was not surprising to me at all and I have had little faith about their involvement and whether they were involved or if they will even do anything about it in the end.

 

[pokeraddict]

Several other cheating accounts have been exposed in the last 12 hours. This is the new 2+2 thread. It keeps getting deeper and deeper for AP.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[lots0]

OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.

As one of the posters at 2+2 said

It is pretty obvious that if these guys are colluding they are very bad at it and arent really hiding it at all.

Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...

Pokeraddict said;

Lots0, you seem very resentful that I would pass on info about the biggest story in online poker this year.

First I am not 'resentful', I am flabbergasted that such a bullshit story has gotten such coverage.

2nd - No way this is the biggest story in online poker... In order for this to be the biggest story, it first has to be true... And this is so obviously not true.

pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.

 

[lots0]

I've never heard of Poker Grabber and can't find anything about it on Yahoo or Google.

I call it 'Poker Grabber', some call it 'Hand Grabber' or 'History Grabber'. Whatever you call it, they are programs that grab (steal?) other peoples hand histories so you can use your computers power and programs like 'Poker Tracker' to analyze the way people play and then track them around the different poker rooms and then relieve them of their money.

You can't do this kinda crap in a 'real' land based poker room, so you should not be able to do it online... But that is just my opinion and I don't want to hijack this thread with a discussion about the ethics of 'Poker Grabber' and 'Poker Tracker' like computer programs.

 

[pygmyhipo]

Side Note: I am more concerned that Absolute Poker is allowing Poker Tracker (Poker Grabber), what I consider to be poker "cheating programs" to have access to the hand history's at AP. This is something that I believe needs to end immediately, for the benefit of ALL online players.

PokerTracker is not a "cheating program". The 2+2 posters who provided data are sharing the hand histories that were saved to the hard disk by the Absolute Poker client itself. The PokerTracker program simply loads these files and displays statistics on the hands.

Without PokerTracker the players would have very little chance of detecting cases of cheating. Do you want to rely 100% on the so-called "Security department" of a poker site that has consistently proven itself inept at putting its customers' interests first? I don't.

-pyg

 

[lots0]

@ pygmyhipo
I guess you did not read the part about NOT hijacking this thread with a discussion about the ethics of these types of programs.

P.S. It's real simple, if you don't trust them don't play there... You don't need a computer program for that.

 

[BBKPoker]

First: The Watchdog is a pretty obvious shrill. His posts on 2+2 involve things like "I'll have my friend look into your account problem".

Second: Here's an example of a hand from PotRipper where he made it very deep into a $1,000 buyin online NL tournament:

Stage #896976330 Tourney ID 1883389 Holdem Multi Normal Tournament No Limit $4500 - 2007-09-13 01:43:49 (ET)
Table: 14 (Real Money) Seat #3 is the dealer
Seat 3 - POTRIPPER ($765740 in chips)
Seat 8 - CRAZYMARCO ($214260 in chips)
POTRIPPER - Ante $450
CRAZYMARCO - Ante $450
POTRIPPER - Posts small blind $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Posts big blind $4500
*** POCKET CARDS ***
POTRIPPER - Calls $2250
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
*** FLOP *** [4h Kd Kh]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $9000
CRAZYMARCO - Calls $9000
*** TURN *** [4h Kd Kh] [7s]
CRAZYMARCO - Checks
POTRIPPER - Bets $13500
CRAZYMARCO - All-In(Raise) $200310 to $200310
POTRIPPER - Calls $186810
*** RIVER *** [4h Kd Kh 7s] [5s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
POTRIPPER - Shows [10c 9c] (One pair, kings)
CRAZYMARCO - Shows [9h 2h] (One pair, kings)
POTRIPPER Collects $428520 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($428520)
Board [4h Kd Kh 7s 5s]
Seat 3: POTRIPPER (dealer) (small blind) won Total ($428520) HI$428520) with One pair, kings(ten kicker) [10c 9c - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:10c,P:9c,B:7s]
Seat 8: CRAZYMARCO (big blind) HI:lost with One pair, kings [9h 2h - B:Kh,B:Kd,P:9h,B:7s,B:5s]


So he calls for his stack with 10 high, no draws on the turn? I'm sorry, this is frankly unbelievable for a high stakes winning limit and no limit player with very strong win stats.

Another super-suspicious hand to me involving another questionable account. This time, GrayCat:



STAGE #746856569: HOLDEM NORMAL $200/$400 - 2007-08-28 11:47:04 (ET)
Table: LOC NESS AVE (Real Money) Seat #7 is the dealer
Seat 7 - GEMMER ($7200 in chips)
Seat 3 - GOFETCH ($11990 in chips)
Seat 4 - GRAYCAT ($24027.89 in chips)
Seat 5 - MNTBIKR18 ($7880 in chips)
GOFETCH - Posts small blind $100
GRAYCAT - Posts big blind $200
*** POCKET CARDS ***
Dealt to GEMMER [5d 5c]
MNTBIKR18 - Raises $400 to $400
GEMMER - Raises $600 to $600
GOFETCH - Folds
GRAYCAT - Raises $600 to $800
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
GEMMER - Calls $200
*** FLOP *** [2c 2s 5s]
GRAYCAT - Checks
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $200
GRAYCAT - Folds
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $200
*** TURN *** [2c 2s 5s] [10h]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** RIVER *** [2c 2s 5s 10h] [Ah]
MNTBIKR18 - Checks
GEMMER - Bets $400
MNTBIKR18 - Calls $400
*** SHOW DOWN ***
GEMMER - Shows [5d 5c] (Full house, fives full of twos)
MNTBIKR18 - Mucks
GEMMER Collects $4495 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total Pot($4500) | Rake ($5)
Board [2c 2s 5s 10h Ah]
Seat 3: GOFETCH (small blind) Folded on the POCKET CARDS
Seat 4: GRAYCAT (big blind) Folded on the FLOP
Seat 5: MNTBIKR18 HI: [Mucked] [Jh 10c]
Seat 7: GEMMER (dealer) won Total ($4495) HI$4495) with Full house, fives full of twos [5d 5c - B:5s,P:5d,P:5c,B:2s,B:2c]

So, GrayCat caps the betting preflop, putting in the fourth bet, only to check-fold on an extremely harmless looking flop of 2/2/5?

What hand could he possibly have capped with that he can the so conveniently get away from when his opponent flops a 5 with his pocket fives for his monster hand of 5s full of deuces?

 

[ZFitz]

OK, for the record.... this whole thing is JUST a RUMOR and a bad one at that.

Just show one little bit of proof... Thats all I ask, just one small piece of PROOF.

Every hand that has been discussed, has at least one explanation that makes far far more sense than your "Super User" Theory.

I cant believe your post and Ive registered just to ask you are you trolling or do you just not understand the stats that have been posted? You are asking for "just one small piece of proof" presumably after you have read the thread on 2+2 where there is completely incontrovertible evidence of cheating. The only way you don't see this is if you dont understand how to read the stats.


Then there is the supporting evidence, (although uneccessary as the stats alone are more than sufficient proof of cheating), of never calling on the river, always either raising or folding; winning more than anyone else playing 90%+ of hands, a percentage you would likely not find even on a play money table. How can you honestly believe that someone can turn a massive profit playing some of the biggest names in online poker at very high stakes playing this (beyond retarded donkey) style without having inside info, so I'll ask again do you not understand pokertracker stats?

The hand BBKPoker is the one that I found most amazing of all - calling all in with 10 high on the turn when down to the last two of a mtt.

As one of the posters at 2+2 said
Maybe they are so bad at it, because they are not doing it...

As every other poster on 2+2 says
They are cheating......

pokeraddict, All you have to do is provide one fact.... One small piece of evidence that is not easily explained away... And I'll side with you and Black List Absolute Poker.

But first you have to provide some real proof of your accusations against Absolute Poker. Proof which you have not provided. So far, all I have seen is rumor and innuendo and not a single fact.

I'll take it you just don't understand the stats at this stage because you are actually making yourself look very stupid. This is not rumor and innuendo, the statistics have been posted for all to see. Some of the stuff I have seen posted I would imagine would more improbably winning the lottery - a good example being winning "37 buyins (assuming a buyin = 100BB) in 440 hands playing 90/70".