Ludicrous rule at All Star Slots!

[KasinoKing]

Now don't get me wrong - I really like this place, but look what I spotted in their banking T&C's:-

Withdrawing is only possible for those who have played for real money at All Star Slots and have wagered their deposits at least by 1x.
Fair enough.

If you have not wagered fully your deposits by at least 1x, All Star Slots reserves the right to place a charge or even restrict a withdrawal.
Yep - that's understandable.

Players from Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark) are not eligible for any bonuses upon their deposits and have to wager 50x their first deposit to be eligible for a withdrawal.
WHAT????

You are having a blinking laugh, aren't you?
So "evil bonus abusing Scandinavians" can deposit & play at your casino without getting any bonuses, but STILL have to complete Dx50 WR...

Sorry, but that is the most ridiculous rule I have ever read.
Why not just say they can't play at your casino at all?

KK (Racism sucks!)

 

[kmay87]

Perhaps they are hoping such people won't notice this term.......

Although if that only applies to the first deposit, excluding how unethical it may be, perhaps the casino wants to separate the abusers from the honest players. Someone who is prepared to lose their deposit and play again will become more of a loyal player.

But still, it doesn't really seem fair. Will be interesting to hear what the rep has to say.

 

[Rusty]

Wow that is probably the most evil T&C ever:icon_evil
Hey Scandinavians hope you like being shafted :xxx

Good spot KK as you say it would be fine if they decided they did not want certain members at their Casino but to have such an unreasonable and prejudice rule buried in their T&C's just make them look draconian and backward.

PS

I have just noticed they have only just updated that as a T&C so no doubt it is a knee jerk reaction to Scandinavian bonus abusers.
Why they have gone this route instead of just not accepting Scandinavians I do not know. (revenge probably) but only the innocent players will suffer.


This T&C is not great either though;

5.3 CASH OUT:
You can always cash out your money from your account by using one of the methods described in our Cash-out/Withdraw section. The casino management reserves the right to pay withdraw requests exceeding $3000 in instalments.

People deposit more than that at Casinos!

 

[KasinoKing]

Perhaps they are hoping such people won't notice this term.......

Although if that only applies to the first deposit, excluding how unethical it may be, perhaps the casino wants to separate the abusers from the honest players. Someone who is prepared to lose their deposit and play again will become more of a loyal player.

I think you might have missed a thing or two:-

a) How can anyone abuse a deposit which does not have a bonus?

b) It does not say the WR is cleared if the player busts out. Looks to me like the WR carries forward to subsequent deposits...

Crazy!

 

[kmay87]

I think you might have missed a thing or two:-

a) How can anyone abuse a deposit which does not have a bonus?

b) It does not say the WR is cleared if the player busts out. Looks to me like the WR carries forward to subsequent deposits...

Crazy!

Seriously? If that's the case, it basically means they will never cash out, which like you rightly said, why not just forbid them from playing altogether.

My comment was worded as such because if Scandinavians are really that bad when it comes to bonus abuse (I never knew of that) then as a whole they have a bad rep. So by the casino witnessing some Scandinavians who are prepared to play 'in the correct way' they could lose that negative rep.

 

[Pinababy69]

Players from Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark) are not eligible for any bonuses upon their deposits and have to wager 50x their first deposit to be eligible for a withdrawal.
WHAT????

You are having a blinking laugh, aren't you?
So "evil bonus abusing Scandinavians" can deposit & play at your casino without getting any bonuses, but STILL have to complete Dx50 WR...

Sorry, but that is the most ridiculous rule I have ever read.
Why not just say they can't play at your casino at all?

KK (Racism sucks!)

Absolutely unfreaking real KK!!! You also have to wonder if they may just "slip" in a few other countries as time goes on. Good spot.

b) It does not say the WR is cleared if the player busts out. Looks to me like the WR carries forward to subsequent deposits...

Crazy!

We must think alike, because I was thinking the exact same thing. If true, and you deposit $50 your first time....you would NEVER be eligible for a withdrawal until you have wagered a total of $2500.

Between this thread....and the one about GoWild deciding to keep progressive jackpots for themselves (and only pay them out 5K a month) and apparently Rival as well....I seriously have to wonder how hard up are these casinos today? Have things gotten that bad that they are resorting to these types of measures to make money?

Which brings me back to what I have always said.....nothing wrong with making an honest buck, with the emphasis on honest. All of this is sneaky, underhanded and downright unethical.

 

[silcnlayc]

Ok, , just wondering why one should care if they are not Players from Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark)? It does not affect any other players...the only thing I would be concerned about would be casino management reserves the right to pay withdraw requests exceeding $3000 in instalments.

Just wondering what the big deal is since it is the casinos right to place any T&C's they want in their language of play for players. All casinos do it...if one does not like the T&C's just don't play there is the way I look at it..I guess...no? Yes?


.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Absolutely unfreaking real KK!!! You also have to wonder if they may just "slip" in a few other countries as time goes on. Good spot.



We must think alike, because I was thinking the exact same thing. If true, and you deposit $50 your first time....you would NEVER be eligible for a withdrawal until you have wagered a total of $2500.

Between this thread....and the one about GoWild deciding to keep progressive jackpots for themselves (and only pay them out 5K a month) and apparently Rival as well....I seriously have to wonder how hard up are these casinos today? Have things gotten that bad that they are resorting to these types of measures to make money?

Which brings me back to what I have always said.....nothing wrong with making an honest buck, with the emphasis on honest. All of this is sneaky, underhanded and downright unethical.

The current crisis is all about liquidity (rather, the lack of it). Businesses simply CANNOT use traditional forms of borrowing for their operating "float". A recent TV program showed that BIG businesses were telling their smaller suppliers that they would take far longer to pay their bills. This is evidence that these businessess are using delayed payments as a replacement for the normal forms of borrowings to provide their operating "float" that they can no longer get.
There is no reason to assume casinos to be unique in the business world in NOT trying this.

The Scandinavian issue is worse though, they have suffered from PAST players "abusing bonuses", but are recovering the losses from NEW and INNOCENT Scandinavian players, which is unethical.

Scandinavians CANNOT abuse an UNBONUSED first deposit IF THE GAMES ARE FAIR. Such a rule makes sense only IF it is possible to "abuse" WITHOUT bonuses, and this is a pretty damaging position for this casino to imply through this term. Is there something about this software that these Scandinavians have found out that makes this possible (it's happened before with other software ).

 

[Pinababy69]

Ok, , just wondering why one should care if they are not Players from Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark)? It does not affect any other players...the only thing I would be concerned about would be casino management reserves the right to pay withdraw requests exceeding $3000 in instalments.

Just wondering what the big deal is since it is the casinos right to place any T&C's they want in their language of play for players. All casinos do it...if one does not like the T&C's just don't play there is the way I look at it..I guess...no? Yes?

.

I'm sure you're not alone in your thinking Silc....but IMO, that is a big part of what is wrong with this industry. People just don't get concerned enough about ALL issues like this, if it doesn't concern them directly. It's no different than someone who plays at a Virtual shit hole, and then says "well, they always pay me". In other words, doesn't matter if others are getting screwed over, as long as number one is looked after.

I bitch and moan all the time about unscrupulous affiliates and webmasters who promote rogue casinos. But, players who don't take a pro-active role in assuring that there is a level playing field for ALL....are just as much a part of the problem.

People would be well served to remember that quote "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing". Maybe a bit over the top, but I'm sure my meaning comes through.

 

[jetset]

Just when you thought you had seen everything bad management can do in this business, along comes another example like this Scandinavian "none bonus" rule.

First time I've ever heard of an online casino requiring a wagerthrough when no bonus has been offered or taken...it's just crazy.

I'm not too impressed with the paying amounts over $3K in instalments rule, either - what are these guys doing - operating on a shoestring?

I realise that this is an operator fault, but in Wizard Gaming's shoes I think I would have to offer this licensee a little CRM guidance.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Just when you thought you had seen everything bad management can do in this business, along comes another example like this Scandinavian "none bonus" rule.

First time I've ever heard of an online casino requiring a wagerthrough when no bonus has been offered or taken...it's just crazy.

I'm not too impressed with the paying amounts over $3K in instalments rule, either - what are these guys doing - operating on a shoestring?

I realise that this is an operator fault, but in Wizard Gaming's shoes I think I would have to offer this licensee a little CRM guidance.

Didn't see the Winward issue then. Players who refused the bonus were told they would STILL be required to make 30x WR on their starting bankroll.

Perhaps the Wizard gaming rep could explain this 50x WR on an unbonused deposit, and exactly how this combats "bonus abuse". Surely, banning the Scandinavians from bonuses has achieved this already.

Maybe they have a deficiency in maths. There is NO ADVANTAGE in the big bet with entire bankroll once you remove the leverage of the bonus. This applies even when taken over a big sample, such as each Scandinavian player signing up at each Wizard gaming casino, not taking the bonus, and wagering his entire deposit on Red (or Black). There is even no advantage if the deposit is doubled at the next venue until there is a win. It might LOOK like there is, but this is simply a Martingale progression, but with each bet being from a new deposit at a new casino.
I have heard that there are some players that believe this Martingale approach works online, but it will fail in the end, although it can appear to work for quite a while. It DOES work if bonuses are used (medium term), which is why the strategy is now outlawed in nearly all online casinos.

 

[winbig]

Didn't see the Winward issue then. Players who refused the bonus were told they would STILL be required to make 30x WR on their starting bankroll.

Actually Winward was worse. Even if you didn't take a bonus, you were still required to play through ALL of your deposits 30x no matter where you lived.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Actually Winward was worse. Even if you didn't take a bonus, you were still required to play through ALL of your deposits 30x no matter where you lived.

That was true, this rule was not directed at "bonus abusers", but at players who wanted to avoid the fun & games by not taking bonuses. It demonstrates that there was intent to stall, and they certainly didn't want to encourage players to refuse bonuses, thus robbing them of excuses for stalling payment.

I was one of the lucky few. Joined Winward around 2005, and despite the UK already being banned, their CS said they would let me in because they wanted to see if it was "safe" for them to start accepting UK players. Like a lamb to the slaughter, I deposited $500, and "advantage played" my way to a sizeable profit. They paid, and they paid again .... and then again

They were fooled. I noticed that once released, the bonus was sticky, but NOT phantom, so each time I withdrew my cash, I WAITED about a week, before playing again, bigish bets, and all BLACKJACK Every time I was up a round $100 to $200, I cashed out AGAIN, and waited another week, not playing til I saw the money. I was able to ride the variance this way, since if you LOST a hand, and then "won" one afterwards, EVERYTHING was cash - and this little "feature" is what made the bonus VERY profitable indeed

They later invited me to take a birthday bonus, but said I had to make a nominal deposit in order to qualify. I gave them $50, and they belatedly realised they had ensnared a Wolf, not a lamb, and it took a year to prise the remaining $25 out of them. I probably also found out what "bonus abuse" was all about during my time with them, it was like taking candy from a baby. I was only "following orders" from one of THEIR affiliates, and it took a lot longer for me to find out what THIS was all about. IF casinos were more choosy about their affiliates, they would ensure that they didn't get featured on "bonus hunting" portals, and thus fleeced from both ends.

 

[pmhcfc]

Just when you thought you had seen everything bad management can do in this business, along comes another example like this Scandinavian "none bonus" rule.

First time I've ever heard of an online casino requiring a wagerthrough when no bonus has been offered or taken...it's just crazy.

I'm not too impressed with the paying amounts over $3K in instalments rule, either - what are these guys doing - operating on a shoestring?

I realise that this is an operator fault, but in Wizard Gaming's shoes I think I would have to offer this licensee a little CRM guidance.

Wasn't that guy who won the $5.5 M Mega Mollha JP from a Scandinavian country?

 

[All Star Slots]

Answers to your posts

Hello all,

Thank you KasinoKing for starting this thread. There have been a lot of comments and posts and hopefully I will be able to answer these here.

The new Terms and Conditions update was introduced due to high cases of players from the listed Scandinavian countries (Norway, Finland, Sweden, Iceland and Denmark) displaying a trend in bonus abusing.

Denying players from these countries from being credited bonuses was the first step to counteracting such trends in bonus abuse, which as many of you have noted, is a reasonably understandable update.

The part that has caused controversy in this thread is the decision to place the 50x wagering requirements on their deposits before players from these countries are eligible for a withdrawal. As KasinoKing rightly asks, and as VinylWeatherMan points out:

Scandinavians [or any player at All Star Slots] CANNOT abuse an UNBONUSED first deposit IF THE GAMES ARE FAIR.

This 50x wagering requirement was not introduced to stop any other form of abuse. This 50x wagering requirement was introduced to act as a deterrent to all prospective players from these aforementioned countries and nothing more. Until last nights minor upgrade we simply did not have the ability to exclude players from taking a bonus therefore this acted as a fail safe.

It is understandable that the 50x wagering requirements may seem excessively high, however as you all may know, it is far from impossible to surpass these wagering requirements on all our games (a first deposit of $25 would require $1250 of wagering). It also provides a good setting for honest players from these countries who genuinely wish to play at All Star Slots, to prove they are not bonus hunters and abusers. We have in place an internal policy to individually contact genuine players from these countries and agree individual regular terms if they are fully verified at the managements discretion, similar to something you may find for VIPs in other software. This last point is not something we would normally publish as you can imagine scenarios involving numerous bonus abusers signing up to play as if they are honest, genuine players and then ultimately abusing the system once they are taken off this wagering requirement.

With regards to the wagering requirements following on (re:KasinoKing), we should have stated this clearer. If a player from one of these countries does not reach the wagering requirements and ultimately loses their funds, the wagering requirements do not follow on top of the wagering requirements for their next deposit. This is similar to our bonus system, as a players wagering requirements are directly related to whatever remains in their bonus balance.

With regards to Jetsets comment:
I'm not too impressed with the paying amounts over $3K in instalments rule, either - what are these guys doing - operating on a shoestring?

I can assure you first and foremost that All Star Slots does not operate on a shoestring. This is a common industry rule that you will find in other casinos, but may I stress that it states The casino management reserves the right a right that we have never had to enforce since operations began.

I would also like to emphasize that All Star Slots champions the cause of putting its players first but would like to assure people that whilst we try to look after our legitimate players as best we can, it would be nave to ignore our interests in the form of bonus abusers.

I would also like to add, since this update to the Terms and Conditions, we have had players from the above countries deposit and withdraw with minimal fuss. All changes to our T&Cs can be seen here: Old / Expired Link so its easy to check.

Finally, we have worked with, and play host to many CasinoMeister members who have grown with us over the months - offering advice and feedback. We fully hope that this will continue and thank you all for your ongoing support.

Kindest regards,
Denny
All Star Slots
New Slots, Classic Thrills

 

[RobWin]

Just when you thought you had seen everything bad management can do in this business, along comes another example like this Scandinavian "none bonus" rule.

First time I've ever heard of an online casino requiring a wagerthrough when no bonus has been offered or taken...it's just crazy.

I'm not too impressed with the paying amounts over $3K in instalments rule, either - what are these guys doing - operating on a shoestring?

I realise that this is an operator fault, but in Wizard Gaming's shoes I think I would have to offer this licensee a little CRM guidance.

Winward Casino was doing this exact same thing last year before Bryan rogued them here and IIRC they were making the player play their own money thru around something like 30x before they could cash out their own money without even using a bonus. Winbig, Max and myself gave them a purdy hard time over that very issue I believe.

I believe it was discussed in the "Winward Garbage" thread or something like that before Max renamed the thread.

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya. There are many Online Casino's with such restrictions. Why? In some area's, Bonus abuse is the RULE, rather than the exception. There are Teams, operating out of PC sweat shops, "for lack of a better term", that do nothing but take advantage of Casino bonus.

If this happens, and there are operations like this for Online Games, like UO, Everquest, World of Warcraft, then you KNOW there are operations like this for On Line Casiono's, and Poker Rooms.

Yes, the innocent end up suffering because of the actions of the Guilty, but it is like that in all aspects of life. I would not like it if i lived there. I don't like it that %90 of all Online Casino's wont let me play because i am in the US.

 

[winbig]

Hiya. There are many Online Casino's with such restrictions. Why? In some area's, Bonus abuse is the RULE, rather than the exception. There are Teams, operating out of PC sweat shops, "for lack of a better term", that do nothing but take advantage of Casino bonus.

We're talking about players having to roll over their first deposit by an insane amount WITHOUT a bonus, and BEFORE they can cash out. This is certainly a ROGUE term, because you have slim to no chance of being able to meeting these absurd WR's before busting out with your own money and no bonus attached.

 

[love2winalot]

I understand that. They simply are using, "profiling", and making it so no one from their, "Profile area", will even try to play there. I do not own a suit or tie. There are resturants i would like to eat at, that require a suit and tie to enter. It kind of falls under the term, "We have the right to refuse service", type of thing.

A better example is this. Some hown owner associations to not want people to have those direct tv satalites as they made the property LOOK BAD. Legally, they must allow them, so what do they do? They add in restrictions, "It must be on a certain side of the house, enclosed in a box, painted same color as building, the cable must be in a conduit, also painted", and on and on, so as to make it not worth the effort for people to get them.

 

[KasinoKing]

This 50x wagering requirement was not introduced to stop any other form of abuse.
This 50x wagering requirement was introduced to act as a deterrent to all prospective players from these aforementioned countries and nothing more.

Thank you for contributing to this thread - much appreciated!

So it's nothing to do with abuse then. Good.
What is it then that you don't like about Scandinavians which causes you to 'discourage' them from playing at your casino?

I'm genuinely curious..!

KK

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thank you for contributing to this thread - much appreciated!

So it's nothing to do with abuse then. Good.
What is it then that you don't like about Scandinavians which causes you to 'discourage' them from playing at your casino?

I'm genuinely curious..!

KK

Well, it was "bonus abuse", but surely if Scandinavians were not getting bonuses, then ANY Scandinavians STILL prepared to play are NOT in it to abuse the bonus. While honest players might wager 50x their deposit, what about the RESPONSIBLE GAMBLING aspect of the Scandinavian player who hits big after a relatively short time. This term forces them to play some (or all) of these winnings back, whereas players from anywhere else could apply the principles of responsible gambling and go for an early cashout, and leave themselves perhaps a little to continue playing.

I can't imagine these "sweatshops" in places like Iceland, Norway etc. Far too cold for a start but apart from that these are "first world" countries, and not places where such "sweatshop" operations are able to obtain the necessary "slave labour", due to lack of poverty and the welfare systems.

Scandinavian "bonus abuse" is more likely down to players who have taken "responsible gambling" to it's logical comclusion, and are playing from home, on one PC, and using their own ID. They simply know what they are doing, and participate in forums discussing playing strategy.

IF Scandinavian players were misrepresenting the facts to claim a bonus they were not allowed, this would be fraud, and there is no excuse for fleecing newcomers to pay the costs of earlier players who beat the bonuses, and fled with the money.

Many casinos have special VIP terms, including bigger and better bonuses, but these do NOT start out by holding a deposit without a bonus to much more than 1x WR (designed to deter casinos being used for money transfer, rather than gambling).


I thought us Brits were champion "bonus abusers" too, or is it too warm here to bonus ban us and make us play our deposits 50x

 

[Rusty]

That reply was sugar coated nonsense.

Rep;
This 50x wagering requirement was not introduced to stop any other form of abuse.This 50x wagering requirement was introduced to act as a deterrent to all prospective players from these aforementioned countries and nothing more. Until last nights minor upgrade we simply did not have the ability to exclude players from taking a bonus therefore this acted as a fail safe.

Bold
I can think of a better deterrent, do not allow Scandinavians to sign up at your Casino.
Why deter when you can ban?
A ban makes no money while a rogue term such as wager deposit 50X does.
Those are the facts are they not?

Underlined (let us look at the logic of that statement)
So up until last night bonus amounts were still being automatically credited to Scandinavians accounts in which case the term makes little sense since they would be playing with a bonus and 25Xbonus+deposit.
That does not sound like much of a deterrent to a bonus abuser.

Which is wrong your statement that you could not exclude people from the bonus or that the T&C acted as a fail safe?

Next;
It also provides a good setting for honest players from these countries who genuinely wish to play at All Star Slots, to prove they are not bonus hunters and abusers.

Hang on I thought it was supposed to be a deterrent?
Never mind, let us take a trip into La La land then where honest players are queuing up to prove their integrity by depositing at your Casino that enforces a draconian measure of 50XWR of THEIR OWN MONEY before they can even consider a withdrawal of THEIR OWN MONEY no doubt leaving messages of thanks to let you know how pleased they were that even though you assumed they were a fraud or bonus abuser you still gave them this wonderful opportunity to prove they are just genuine players.

It sounds so wonderful perhaps you could extend it to the UK and other countries.

Was that sarcastic enough?

I have no time for frauds or bonus abusers so sure protect your Casino but do it in an intelligent and professional way, a little foresight may not go amiss Once in a while.
I posted earlier this looked like a knee jerk reaction to bonus abuse and how Casinos get themselves into such a mess time and time again I can not fathom.

Remove this rogue T&C and do not allow new players from Scandinavian countries period, instead of trying to shake them down.

 

[silcnlayc]

I guess I am wondering if the logic was that it was a new launch for a casino that had many things going for it and needed time to adress certain areas and have certain stops put in place. Just like Rival, who has never fixed many glitches/terms etc that were found, this casino was trying to cover themselves until these protections were put in place by software add ons (code lines that needed to be written or re written) to help lock down some of the abuses that they knew came with launching a new casino with new software platform.

I personally think, that they are on top of these issues and are listening to what is suggested and maybe they will be changing these T&C"s as they grow. But right now they are still in infancy stages and are taking baby steps to keep from being over run and put out of the running before they have a chance to learn to walk?

Just my thoughts...

.

 

[winbig]

This 50x wagering requirement was not introduced to stop any other form of abuse. This 50x wagering requirement was introduced to act as a deterrent to all prospective players from these aforementioned countries and nothing more. Until last nights minor upgrade we simply did not have the ability to exclude players from taking a bonus therefore this acted as a fail safe.

Then BAN THEM FROM JOINING.

This is what every other casino does if they don't want a particular group of people playing at their casino.

You can't have your cake, and eat it, too. You want their deposits, but you don't want them to win.

This was one of the major factors in Winward joining the rogue pit, and although not a threat, but IMO, you're treading on very thin ice right now by having this term in place. Even with them, they only required a 30x rollover when a bonus wasn't taken.

Case closed.

BTW, the math:

$100 deposit, 50x wagering @ 97% payout: $5000 in wagers = -$150 - Net loss of $50 is to be expected. If you bump it to 98%, Then they'll break even.

And as everyone knows, a more realistic RTP during a session with only a $100 starting bankroll would only be around 85%...IF that.

 

[Marie2473]

I downloaded the casino and played a while for fun to test it out. Really liked it and was thinking about making a deposit and trying it out tonight.
however This thread made me deposit somewhere else.
I am swedish and I do not wanna have to wager my own money 50 times before making a withdrawl.
Imagine if I hit a 500 dollar win or something and Not beeing able to withdrawl coz I still have to wager a thousand or more?
Nope, they are not getting my money!