Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

[thelawnet]

I have just forwarded the PABs that have come in since yesterday (after I opened the PAB back up) to Playtech and Joyland.

So far a total of 16 complaints have been filed via the Pitch a Bitch section totalling in the neighboorhood of around $111,000 in claimed winnings.

So what's your opinion of casino shills posing as avid readers of bonuswhores.com 'for sanctioned poker bonuses' and yet giving themselves away by posting such intricate detail of what the casino had or hadn't done, and describing in deep technical detail the inner workings of Playtech casinos, as to leave us in no doubt what they are.

Sorry qazwsx, you've been busted.....

Next time, leave it at 'these people are so evil', and leave off all the identifying in depth technical information.

Better luck next time.

It's all part of the fun at the land of joy! Where happiness never stops!

 

[The Dude]

So what's your opinion of casino shills posing as avid readers of bonuswhores.com...

The jury is still out on that one in my opinion. qazwsx did make some odd statements though - I'm still looking into this by the way.

As for a general statment about this situation, I'm waiting for a response from Joyland before I tell everyone how I feel about this.

 

[thelawnet]

The jury is still out on that one in my opinion. qazwsx did make some odd statements though - I'm still looking into this by the way.

Oh well, I guess nothing can be proven 100%. But comments like this are extremely technical

Promo log entries for Playtech partners are not the responsibility of Playtech.

'Playtech partners'? IMO, only someone who is dealing with Playtech would describe a casino as a partner. And there's the statement itself, distinguishing between 'promo log entries' and other transactions. How would this guy know that if he doesn't work at Joyland or Playtech?

Regardless, for the record, this site can't alter play logs.

That's a very strong statement coming from someone posing as a player.

 

[GrandMaster]

If someone sees a slot machine paying every pull, many would sit and play rather than contact the casino. In this case, they all called their buddies over to play. Then when the error was found, instead of moving on and being happy they got their funds back, they had the nerve to bring it to a regulatory forum and waste precious time of the Webmaster.

They are thieves for pursuing their claims and should all be added to the EVIL list. For the record, I am an active member of that community so the previous poster that mentions my motives a disgruntled, I respond that I posted there as recently as 2 hours ago.

I read the story below in Gambling 102 by Michael "The Wizard of Odds" Schackleford :notworthy and I think it has many similarities with the Joyland case.

The Grand Casino in Biloxi introduced Sic Bo with the wrong payout table, it paid 80:1 instead of 60:1 on 4 and 17, which transformed these bets from sucker bets with house edge 15.3% to ones with a 12.5% player's edge. Stanford Wong found this out, published it on bj21.com, and the professional advantage players descended on the casino. The casino pulled the game after a few days, but it did not try to reclaim the money from the players or call them criminals for spreading this information on the internet instead of telling the casino.

I would also like to know who qazwsx really is. He seems to know too much.

 

[jetset]

I read the story below in Gambling 102 by Michael "The Wizard of Odds" Schackleford :notworthy and I think it has many similarities with the Joyland case.

The Grand Casino in Biloxi introduced Sic Bo with the wrong payout table, it paid 80:1 instead of 60:1 on 4 and 17, which transformed these bets from sucker bets with house edge 15.3% to ones with a 12.5% player's edge. Stanford Wong found this out, published it on bj21.com, and the professional advantage players descended on the casino. The casino pulled the game after a few days, but it did not try to reclaim the money from the players or call them criminals for spreading this information on the internet instead of telling the casino.

I would also like to know who qazwsx really is. He seems to know too much.

That is an excellent precedent imo Grandmaster, as are the precedents set by CON online when they took a million dollar plus hit on two occasions that I can recall where they screwed up and still honoured their obligations to the player community.

But perhaps we are not dealing with the same level of integrity and professionalism here at Joyland?

Mary also made a very valid point here some posts back - complain to the Antigua authorities as well - Ms. McDonald over there as the new director has said that she intends to run a clean ship - now is a very good opportunity for her to prove that her words were not merely empty promises.

 

[freakin]

I read the story below in Gambling 102 by Michael "The Wizard of Odds" Schackleford :notworthy and I think it has many similarities with the Joyland case.

The Grand Casino in Biloxi introduced Sic Bo with the wrong payout table, it paid 80:1 instead of 60:1 on 4 and 17, which transformed these bets from sucker bets with house edge 15.3% to ones with a 12.5% player's edge. Stanford Wong found this out, published it on bj21.com, and the professional advantage players descended on the casino. The casino pulled the game after a few days, but it did not try to reclaim the money from the players or call them criminals for spreading this information on the internet instead of telling the casino.

I would also like to know who qazwsx really is. He seems to know too much.

Don't forget the

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. Yet another case of a casino screwup that cost them money which they paid out.

Freakin

 

[andrew26]

Don't forget the

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. Yet another case of a casino screwup that cost them money which they paid out.

Freakin

Very interesting read.

It's amazing how these casino operators, who always have a mathematical advantage, start acting like sleazy morons when the players, through the fault of the operators, temporarily gain the same advantage.

 

[qazwsx]

Very interesting read.

It's amazing how these casino operators, who always have a mathematical advantage, start acting like sleazy morons when the players, through the fault of the operators, temporarily gain the same advantage.

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

 

[TheBloke]

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

What's terrible is your analogy.

A better one would be: "Pounced on it like a safe left open at the bank with a sign next to it saying 'This money is for to you' and a bank teller helping you put it in your wallet"

The casino entered the comp rate, the software clearly displayed it, and people used it. End of story.

 

[Vesuvio]

you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank.

Now there's a strange accident. Sorry, but even without forums don't you think the favourable comp rate was likely to attract players?

Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Remind me again, when was clicking on the button to convert comp points at a casino criminalised? The only entity that might have broken the law (if laws applied to on-line casinos...) is the casino.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted.

There's no "looting" going on. Players always try to win at casinos. If you offer them a good bonus they'll take it. If you offer them a good comp rate they'll make use of it. Usually they'll still lose overall, of course, but if you're inept enough to lose a lot of money it's entirely your own fault.

You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino.

You don't seem to have any more idea about forums than you do about casinos - a Joyland employee then?

Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

I love your way with words Bargain hunting may well be greedy - it's hardly stupid. The only thieves we're dealing with here are Joyland. It's not an excuse for theft that you're doing it to cover your own mistakes.

 

[thelawnet]

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

'They are a casino'

You aren't convincing anyone with your pretense that you are just some charitable onlooker defending poor Joyland.

Describing players who cashed in comps at the rate you offered as thieves is not going to improve your casino's reputation one iota. Like oh my god, the players had an advantage, that makes them thieves. And they cashed in every 15 minutes because they were busting out otherwise, or because they thought you might change the rate. Shocking behaviour!

The fact that you are so obviously connected to Joyland, and have been trying to portray this image of being a player defending the reputation of casinomeister (suddenly appearing from nowhere), of joyland, or whatever else, just makes your casino look even worse than it already did.

I have said this before in this thread, but it's utterly senseless to respond to the substance of your posts, as you are not who you say you are, and frankly the anonymous deceptive posts of a Joyland person in the context of your casino's incompetence, and your subsequent response of stealing the winnings, are worthless.

 

[andrew26]

You aren't convincing anyone with your pretense that you are just some charitable onlooker defending poor Joyland.

If it is ever conclusively shown that this poster actually has a connection to Joyland, in my opinion, that would be grounds for instant rogue-ing.

Of course that would not be at all surprising from an outfit as sleazy and dishonest as Joyland.

 

[boogaooga]

You aren't convincing anyone with your pretense that you are just some charitable onlooker defending poor Joyland.

Personally, I'm still undecided whether our mystery poster is actually a Joyland employee, or merely someone from a fellow Playtech casino who sympathizes with their situation.

One thing is for certain though: for someone who claims to be an avid reader of BW and not associated with Joyland/Playtech, he sure seems to know an awful lot about how the latter works, and awfully little about the way the former works.

 

[The Gunslinger]

One thing is for certain though: for someone who claims to be an avid reader of BW and not associated with Joyland/Playtech, he sure seems to know an awful lot about how the latter works, and awfully little about the way the former works.

LOL.

The Gunslinger

 

[Andy9999]

To claim that a player is a thief because he or she did not point out to the casino that an advantageous situation existed in the players behalf is ludicrous. I used to play Keno quite a bit when I first started gambling, and not once did I have a casino stop me by saying, "HALT ANDY!!!! The game your playing has a 20% house advantage. We are making a fortune off of you. Please discontinue your play immediately". Of course they didn't stop me, nor am I upset they didn't. I made a mistake in that I played a bad game for the player, and I take responsibility for the money I lost. Just like this casino made a mistake in determining their comp conversion rate, and they too should take responsibility for the money they lost and payout accordingly.

 

[qazwsx]

If it is ever conclusively shown that this poster actually has a connection to Joyland, in my opinion, that would be grounds for instant rogue-ing.

Of course that would not be at all surprising from an outfit as sleazy and dishonest as Joyland.

I have zero connection to Joyland or Playtech. I am what I said. You have heard from the casino and they we're polite. IMO, you people are lucky you got your $500 back. Grow up!

Go back home to yor buddies and find another scam. This leak has been plugged.

NO MORE FREE MONEY!

 

[Jay]

I have zero connection to Joyland or Playtech. I am what I said. You have heard from the casino and they we're polite. IMO, you people are lucky you got your $500 back. Grow up!

Go back home to yor buddies and find another scam. This leak has been plugged.

NO MORE FREE MONEY!

I know why I'M emotional about this situation.

What I can't understand is why YOU'D be so emotional about it, so eager to jump in and defend every fraudelent action of the casino as being so great and honest. According to your claims, you're basically a poker player who frequents BW looking for poker bonuses to play, and who occasionally reads the casino side as well. You also apparently hang out here at the CM forums (though you're newly registered under this anonymous identity).

Nothing in that profile corresponds with someone who leaps into this thread screaming that all the "comped" players are thieves who should be added to CM's "evil players" list. Certainly there are dozens of other people around here with the profile you claim to have, and none of them, not even JohnGalt, have taken the position that Joyland is Infallible. Only you and Joyland itself. And Joyland's own posts here can easily be shown to contain lies on the subject (e.g. their "posted comp point rate" has always said that it depends on your VIP level.. It didn't give a specific rate as claimed here)

Your claim that you're a BW regular (who posted there only "two hours ago" recently) is certainly easy enough to prove... right?

 

[raol]

Your claim that you're a BW regular (who posted there only "two hours ago" recently) is certainly easy enough to prove... right?

Yeah... come on qazwsx, give your BW username and let CM and BW cross-check your IP:s. Or if you don't want to reveal you BW identity in public, send a PM to CM and a moderator at BW. I'm sure they'll be more than willing to help out in verifying that your claim is correct.

Or.. CM, if you send his IP to someone in the management at BW, maybe they can check if there is a user with this IP over there.

 

[Vesuvio]

You have heard from the casino and they we're polite.

Freudian slip?

 

[ElDuderino]

I have zero connection to Joyland or Playtech. I am what I said. You have heard from the casino and they we're polite. IMO, you people are lucky you got your $500 back. Grow up!

Go back home to yor buddies and find another scam. This leak has been plugged.

NO MORE FREE MONEY!

This guy's mangling of grammar is EERILY similiar to the Joyland casino rep who posted in this thread and the limited e-mail contact I've had from Joyland, and I'm DEAD serious.

 

[scrollock]

This guy's mangling of grammar is EERILY similiar to the Joyland casino rep who posted in this thread and the limited e-mail contact I've had from Joyland, and I'm DEAD serious.

the numeracy is the same aswell

as posted by joyland rep:

"We had a player, who used a weird way of gambling. He was playing roulette, and his wager was Black-Red and 0 (Green) at the highest possible bet he could place. I am not sure what can be won this way, but he sure wagered enough to convert quite a lot of comp points."

Even with the benefit of hindsight, they still can't figure what has gone on, except that the points system was being too generous. (incidently this is further proof that the comp point rate was set at the level it was intended).

 

[qazwsx]

Or.. CM, if you send his IP to someone in the management at BW, maybe they can check if there is a user with this IP over there.

Hey fool! If I wanted my posting name from Bonuswhores or Casinomeister or RGP used here, I would not have made this account. I made it because I knew it was going to be 50 against 1.

I wish to use the forums in the future under my real name, especially this one, but knew I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread. You have proven this in your zeal to match the IP's.

I can't stop either Webmaster from comparing my information, but I would think that non-thieves would want to stick to the topic at hand, not my identity.

 

[andrew26]

I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread.

Ha.

That's the first thing you have said that makes ANY sense.

 

[Annorax]

Hey fool! If I wanted my posting name from Bonuswhores or Casinomeister or RGP used here, I would not have made this account. I made it because I knew it was going to be 50 against 1.

I wish to use the forums in the future under my real name, especially this one, but knew I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread. You have proven this in your zeal to match the IP's.

I can't stop either Webmaster from comparing my information, but I would think that non-thieves would want to stick to the topic at hand, not my identity.

Non-thieves want to know once and for all whether you're a Joyland employee, a clueless monkey, or a troll. My money's on "all of the above"

 

[Jay]

Hey fool! If I wanted my posting name from Bonuswhores or Casinomeister or RGP used here, I would not have made this account. I made it because I knew it was going to be 50 against 1.

I wish to use the forums in the future under my real name, especially this one, but knew I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread. You have proven this in your zeal to match the IP's.

I can't stop either Webmaster from comparing my information, but I would think that non-thieves would want to stick to the topic at hand, not my identity.

So you have an account here, and then you created a second account solely so that you could call other CM forum members liars and thieves while you remained anonymous.

Wow, you're right, you clearly have higher morals than the rest of us. If I were running a forum, I'd ban someone who made multiple accounts like that. And then I'd warn people who run other forums about him.

 

[GrandMaster]

Don't forget the

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. Yet another case of a casino screwup that cost them money which they paid out.

It is a great story, I read about it in Blackjack Autumn by Barry Meadows. It is surprising that it took so long for the casino to figure out what was going on. It must have been odd that that a casino where $5 bettor were high rollers was suddenly full of people betting $100, who were literally winning all the chips the casino had. Even afterwards the manager blamed a gang of card counters when this promotion could be exploited by simple basic strategy. The sad thing is that if it had been properly managed, it could have been a good promotion. For example, Harrods Casino offers promotions that if you win 5 hands in a row, you get the smallest stake credited to your account as a bonus, which gives a tidy advantage to the player, but the total bonus is capped at 100.

Joylands' management must have noticed that their turnover was vastly increased, yet they were losing money, but their only reaction was to reduce the comp rates. I have to assume that they evaluated the situation and they were happy with the new comp rate. After that point they have no right to complain.

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

If you want a bank analogy, then imagine a bank that offers 5% interest per diem, instead of 5% per annum. People large amounts and just withdraw the 5% interest every day. After a few days, management notices that the bank is losing money, so they reduce the interest rate to 3% per diem. After a week they lock the accounts and call the customers thieves.

Let me quote Barry Meadows on casino errors (Blackjack Autumn, pp. 120-121):
"The moral code in the gambling world states that if the dealer makes a mistake against you, point out the mistake immediately. If he makes a mistake in your favor - overpays you, calls a loss a push, fails to collect the proper insurance money - mum's the word. Dealer mistakes are rare, but it is gauche to tell a dealer about a mistake that helps a player. A priest who would trudge 5 miles in the snow to return a $1 bill to a supermarket clerk who gave him too much change will, at the blackjack table, overlook a $1 error in his favor. As he should. After all, it's the casinos' goal to shake every last player by the ankles to get every last penny, and they don't have much guilt over that."

I must have lost several hundreds dollars at the blackjack table at various online casinos through pressing the wrong button. No casino has ever offered to refund my money, although it must be obvious that I did not mean to hit all those hard 17s, 18s, 19s and 20s. It would be nice if I could keep my money if I win, but get a refund if I bust.

 

[ElDuderino]

This thread is rapidly closing in on 10,000 views. I'd guess that, what, 2500 unique people have seen this thread, minimum. Joyland is getting so many chances to rectify this situation before CM gets involved, yet does nothing. I'm just glad we have a champion in Bryan. I have NO DOUBT that after he sees how poorly Joyland is acting, he will choose to side with the players in this argument.

I'll tell you one thing. Even if Joyland doesn't GAFF about this fiasco, Monaco Gold, New York, and all the other Playtech/Crown casinos that are losing business because of Joyland's behavior will eventually force Joyland to step up to the plate. Of this I have no doubt.

 

[GrandMaster]

The top hit for Joyland casino on Google is the thread at WinnerOnline, the second one is the casino's own website. I am sure this is not good for business. Surprisingly, this thread is much further down.

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

So you have an account here, and then you created a second account solely so that you could call other CM forum members liars and thieves while you remained anonymous.

No, he said he wish to, there is a difference. If you're going to stick your nose into a conversation and insult somebody else, at least get your quote right.

 

[Jay]

No, he said he wish to, there is a difference. If you're going to stick your nose into a conversation and insult somebody else, at least get your quote right.

Hey fool! If I wanted my posting name from Bonuswhores or Casinomeister or RGP used here, I would not have made this account. I made it because I knew it was going to be 50 against 1.

Maybe you should take your own advice.

The shill said he already has an account at BW, here at CM, and he posts at RGP too. He made a second account so he could attack people without future repercussions in his "real" accounts.

 

[TrixSlice]

and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino.

This is the worst lie of them all. So the non existant portal changed transaction logs?

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

Maybe you should take your own advice.

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

I wish to use the forums in the future under my real name, especially this one, but knew I would never be able to discuss my opinion in the future without losing credibility because of this thread. You have proven this in your zeal to match the IP's.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

 

[thelawnet]

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

He can *state* whatever he wishes. That doesn't change the fact that his behaviour is *extremely* odd. He seems to know exactly what happened at the casino, and intricate technical details of the operation of Playtech casinos, which would be nigh on impossible for him to have if he wasn't a shill.

His persistence and venom in defending Joyland is something that is very strange as well. Have you ever seen anyone defending any casino in this manner before, just because they felt the casino was being taken advantage of?

Bizarre value judgements - players who have cashed in comps are 'thieves', etc. I can't see any person behaving in this manner, and going in so hard to defend Joyland, unless they were in some way connected to the Joyland.

And the fact that the player claims he is protecting his alter ego identity by creating a new one here? Again, doesn't make sense. An existing forum member would have far greater credibility, and words would mean much more than some strange newly registered user.

We do not know who this person is for sure, but to my mind it seems almost impossible that some onlooker could get as worked up about things as this guy has, without him actually having a direct involvement with that casino.

He displays an incredible devotion to Joyland casino, sufficient that he can redefine 'cashing in comp points' as 'theft', and has made at least four statements that could ONLY have been made by someone on the inside there. So on the one hand we have an anonymous person claiming to be something, and on the other we have very strong evidence that he actually works for Joyland casino. And you think we should believe the anonymous poster?

I could accept, barely, that someone could make a dozen posts simply defending one casino for its screwup, but this and the obvious inside knowledge about what the casino has and hasn't done, and how it operates?

It's too much for me.

 

[Jay]

I was referring to this comment, not the one you quoted.

He plainly states that he wishes to post under his real name, but can't because of posters like you flaming his every word. I suspect the person you refer to as a "lying shill" is more knowledgable than you think.

Yes, exactly.

But most forums won't let you make multiple accounts just so that you can make inflammatory statements without repercussions in your other accounts, just because you "wish" to keep those accounts clean. In fact, that would usually be grounds for immediate banning.

I have no problem believing that the poster is "more knowledgable than I think". In fact, he seems to have far more knowledge of the details of maintaining a Playtech casino than anyone I've ever heard of. How odd. I've personally played at dozens of Playtech casinos in my life, and I'm a VIP at more than one, and I wouldn't have a clue about what logs are maintained on what servers, etc.

 

[Bruce Hamilton]

In fact, he seems to have far more knowledge of the details of maintaining a Playtech casino than anyone I've ever heard of.

Which would indicate that he is possibly a former casino manager, or at the very least, an employee... Possibly of Joyland, but that doesn't necessarily make him responsible for their current problems.

We shouldn't castrate him until we know for sure, right?

 

[Jay]

Which would indicate that he is possibly a former casino manager, or at the very least, an employee... Possibly of Joyland, but that doesn't necessarily make him responsible for their current problems.

We shouldn't castrate him until we know for sure, right?

He called me a thief (I'm a player owed money by Joyland, so therefore I'm a thief and I should be added to CM's "evil players" list). He started it.

He's probably not *responsible* for their problems even if he is a Joyland employee. But if he's an employee of any Playtech casino (especially Joyland), he's the worst kind of liar and that casino would be one I'd consider essentially dishonest.

Which is why I'd like to know, one way or another. Nothing else to talk about here, since neither Playtech nor Joyland have responded to my complaints, even just to email me the info they posted here.

 

[JimMorrison]

If you and your friend's had not pounced on it like an accident that resulted in a safe being left open at a bank, you would have no issues with this casino. Act like a criminal and you will be treated as one.

Just because they are a casino, and not a bank, does not mean they should be looted. You guys are pathetic, and the cover up after the fact was done by the portal, not the casino. Any player who hit the "convert" button every 15 minutes is a terrible thief. Terrible meaning greedy AND stupid.

That's actually the funniest post I've ever read.

 

[The Dude]

Just a quick interjection here. This is a moderated board, and I am usually in the background keeping an eye on things. There is no conclusive evidence that qazwsx is connected to Joyland - if he were, you'd know about it by now. IMO this is a moot issue unless I'm convinced to think otherwise. Let's try not to dwell on this matter - it's become a side issue. Thanks!

 

[jetset]

I agree - the heat on Q-???? is detracting from the central issue here - it's a sideshow (albeit an entertaining one) that serves only to indicate that the casino *may* be less than honest in having a cloaked affiliate or employee defending their actions here.

These Joyland guys have screwed up their credibility big time, and this poster prancing around the public thread here at present is only exacerbating their problems.

Joyland screwed up on the comp points; did not have the smarts to realise it for a week or more; went in and adjusted the system to a better level for themselves but it was still a screw-up, and they then unilaterally tried to blame players, for whom they have shown absolutely no respect and disqualified winnings on what looks like a blanket basis (or at best on those players they *thought* had *abused* them)

It is remarkable that they could think that they could get away with simply returning deposits TO WINNERS.

Their communications systems either didn't or wouldn't work as they ignored the stiffed players, and only when they realised they were in a world of the proverbial on Casinomiester and elsewhere did they start trying to reverse the situation by agreeing to review the cases of those players smart enough to use the fora.

The comps mess at the root of this dispute was their own mistake. It wasn't the software although they tried at one stage to blame that. It was their own people who messed up imo....and they are now trying to lumber the players with the bill.

We know that there are ample precedents from both land and Internet operations on how to handle this honourably. CON has on two occasions shown the best route - take your lumps and learn from the experience.

It is not the players' responsibility to save a casino from its own incompetence.

If the speculation that this online casino was part of the Empire Online deal is right, then you can bet that EO are not too happy with this situation right now.

 

[jetset]

P.S. And don't forget the tampered transaction logs, too!

 

[The Gunslinger]

It is not the players' responsibility to save a casino from its own incompetence.

Honestly. I think this right here is the heart of the issue. Very well said.

This one sentence should have been the beginning and the end of the debate regarding who is responsible for this comp point issue.

Everything beyond that is either Joyland refusing to pay and covering it up or not, there is no backpedeling the comp fiasco onto the players.

The Gunslinger

 

[Jay]

You're right, it's just a distraction (though the evidence seems pretty clear to me). I just don't like being called a thief by an anoymous troll, when my only crime is to NOT GET PAID BY JOYLAND. They steal my money and I get called a thief.

But since nobody is willing to even acknowledge me (over a week now, waiting for my "72 hour response" from Playtech, even after a second query to them, and Joyland is completely silent, refusing even to email me the bogus explanations they posted here), I don't have much else to do on the topic other than wait for a PAB resolution.

 

[scrollock]

the thing that has been puzzling me, was the change in the points coversion rate of 100 points to 150 points per dollar, which gives player returns of 4% and 2.66% respectively.

now particular attention has been drawn to a players or players that were playing roulette, now roulette has an edge of 2.7%, which is pretty close to changed comp rate of 2.66% is this a coincidence?

or is it because they seen what was going on with the roulette and changed the comp point system to take this into account.

hence they were happy with their comp policy till they seen that it could be taken advantage of by playing roulette, thus they took the decision to change to comp point policy by the minimun to neutralise roulette.

is this what happened

did something along the lines of the following coversation happen

casino manager: hows our comp points policy doing?

casino employee: not very well, some guy is making a fortune by covering all the options on roulette.

casino manager: well change the comp points conversion rate so that he makes a slight loss on each spin.

casino employee: shouldn't i make the comp coversion rate a bit higher than that?

casino manager: no!!, we want the least impact on our original comp policy as possible.

if as we know that the original comps policy was what was intended, then the situation above certainly fits the facts as to what happened subsequently.

this kind of stupidity is not unknown in the world of online casinos judging by the amout of them that still exclude roulette, even new ones that have no history of bonus abuse, where the WR is so high that its impossible to abuse the promos by using this game.

 

[GrandMaster]

now particular attention has been drawn to a players or players that were playing roulette, now roulette has an edge of 2.7%, which is pretty close to changed comp rate of 2.66% is this a coincidence?

or is it because they seen what was going on with the roulette and changed the comp point system to take this into account.

hence they were happy with their comp policy till they seen that it could be taken advantage of by playing roulette, thus they took the decision to change to comp point policy by the minimun to neutralise roulette.

I was wondering about this, too.

 

[jetset]

You're right, it's just a distraction (though the evidence seems pretty clear to me). I just don't like being called a thief by an anoymous troll, when my only crime is to NOT GET PAID BY JOYLAND. They steal my money and I get called a thief.

But since nobody is willing to even acknowledge me (over a week now, waiting for my "72 hour response" from Playtech, even after a second query to them, and Joyland is completely silent, refusing even to email me the bogus explanations they posted here), I don't have much else to do on the topic other than wait for a PAB resolution.

From what I have seen I have to agree that Playtech Disputes has not done an acceptable job of handling this crisis. Joyland have bungled it from the start, ignoring their irate players' complaints, so between the two of them I can understand why guys like Jay are pissed.

Here's a suggestion to pass some time, Jay - what about contacting the licensing jurisdiction? Here's an email:

Kaye MacDonald

[email protected]

Business Information:
Company: Antigua Gaming Authority
Phone: (268) 481 3300
Web Page:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Ms. MacDonald has been fairly high profile with her claims that this licensing jurisdiction is not just a flag of convenience - let's see how she reacts to a few player complaints about bad casino practice and uncommunicative conduct toward players with complaints?

 

[JohnGalt]

I'm hesitant to post this because of all the heat I've taken over at BW for my position here, but you guys have actually changed my mind. My initial reaction when I saw the comp rate was that it was a mistake that would be fixed, and I think the fact that I thought it was so obvious colored my opinion.

I was going to wait for an official response from Joyland, but the fact they haven't given any explanation so far I think shows that they do not have any amazing excuse for the mistake they made. If they had one, it would have come out immediately. It's just too hard to believe that they made some numerical error and then allowed it to continue for a whole week, even changing it partway through that time period. In fact, even if that was the case, I think the duration of the error makes them clearly at fault. If you have a policy running for an entire week, people are going to start relying on it. It would be like if a sportsbook offered bad odds on one team over and over again for a whole week, paying people out as they won, and then later tried to retroactively take back everyone's winnings for that entire week.


Combine that with the fact that we have received no good explanation for the mistake, or any explanation of the altered logs, and that innocent people still haven't gotten their money back, and we're talking serious wrongdoing. This casino has not earned the benefit of the doubt. Didn't Empire buy these guys? I wonder how happy they would be to find they own a bunch of rogued casinos. Now I kind of regret not taking advantage of this.

 

[Daffy]

Roulette

I have to admit that math was not my best subject in school...

I take it the player was playing european roulette (no 00)...

He bet 500 red...500 black...30 zero...

This would be 1000@4%(comp)=$40-$30(zero)=$10 profit per roll until the rate was changed to 2.67% (rough est because zero pays more when it hits)

100-120 rolls/hr=$1000-$1200/hr

Anybody know the timeline between the change from 4% to 2.67% ???

********************************************************

Note to Q....

Namecalling is highly overrated as a debate tool...it usually alienates your opposition to the degree that any valid points you might make are missed.

the dUck

 

[casinomike]

what about the players who didn't even touch the roullete wheel ?

I played a little video poker and a lot of blackjack. I'm sure if joyland went over my play log in detail they'd see I made so many basic strategy mistakes in my play they'd see I was seriously gambling and not certainly not using some math equation to beat their roullete game or something

still never been called or emailed by joyland, I guess I'm lucky I heard at least something here on these forums from joyland, but havent heard anything good

 

[caruso]

How much money is involved? One poster tallied the reports in this thread, and came up with approximately sixty thousand. Gunslinger on the other hand, who would appear to be in the know on this one, quoted five hundred thousand - which would suggest there is a LOT more involved than has been accounted for at Casinomeister.

An actual figure?

 

[TrixSlice]

He bet 500 red...500 black...30 zero...

This would be 1000@4%(comp)=$40-$30(zero)=$10 profit per roll until the rate was changed to 2.67% (rough est because zero pays more when it hits)

100-120 rolls/hr=$1000-$1200/hr

Joyland has a $15 max bet on Roulette. And even if they have changed it since then, I highly doubt you could bet much higher than a hundred. I rarely see a casino with high roulette limits.

How much money is involved?

Casino Meister quoted so far 111,000. From that, I doubt it's over 200k. I'm sure he'll release an updated number as the days pass and more winners (losers) find this thread on their quest for Joylands respectability.