Joyland Casino: Problem withdrawal request

freakin said:
Luckily, players received automatic withdrawal emails from Joyland when they initiated their cashout. These email contain the correct amount of the withdrawal. If a player left money in their account, there is probably zero record of it.

Freakin

I took screenshots of both my pending withdrawals page and my livechat confirming my cashout(s)... I wouldn't have done so if I hadn't discovered CM months ago... Thanks to all the horror stories, I figured it would happen to me sooner or later. :( I'm sincerely glad I did.
 
caruso said:
This wasn't the best organised coup, and the analogy with CON 007 isn't perfect on all front's: even way back then, CON was the market-leader. In addition, that promo was unequivocal. On the other hand, here we have a lil' ole' Playtech casino, and a "mistake". The player mustn't be made to pay for casino mistakes, but mistake it was nonetheless - of gargantuan proportions.

I would put a conservative per-player take on this, maxing out with sleeping and eating time kept to a minimum, at about $200,000 over the course of a week on this manna-from-heaven 103.5 / 104% return casino. Taking a conservative (again) estimate of the players in the group, say 15, that's $3,000,000 for the lot of them. Kudos to whichever member it was who found the "mistake" and passed it on to the other 15 or so, but this was a disaster waiting to happen. At the very least there was never going to be less than an almightily bloody fight, and even then, at this level, chances of payment were slim - maybe 5%. The amount of money involved is simply too great for even Playtech to cough up. Remember RTG and the "Pirate"? Did he get his $1,400,000? Not even close - and that WAS unequivocal, with no possible opt-out clause for the casino.

Kudos to you folks for a ballsy coup attempt in which the potential rewards MIGHT have outweighed the absurd risks, but this wasn't a wise endeavour. Best of luck to you, though.

What if a player hit a sequential Royal Flush at iNetBet playing Joker Poker with $5 coins? Would they pay? Would they be expected to pay? That's a quarter million dollars, which I'd assume the sum in the Joyland case does not reasonably exceed.

Chips in Vegas are covered 1:1 by cash on hand. Even if this is not the case with online casions, the same principle should hold true. If they don't have $80,000 on hand, they shouldn't have a $5 coin size on 4-line Video Poker, period. All of this is adjustable within the Playtech back-end I'm sure, and for this reason. If I've only got $50,000 in my bank to pay players, I can't let four of them play $5 coin single line JoB now can I? Why? Because if I can't pay them, I can't accept their wager. This is custom accross the gambling world, Joyland has violated this compact, and should be held accountable. A casino should not except wagers that may result in wins beyond what they are capable of paying. Period.

The Gunslinger
 
This wasn't my point, which seems to have been read into beyond its scope. I made no comment about the rights, wrongs or anything else of the case - simply that to take advantage of this error - and error it was, ain't no doubting that - was highly risky. At the end of the day, this is a Playtech we're talking here, who, with all due deference to Bryan's recently improved relations with them, are dodgy. Risk / reward: was it worth it? Taking all the factors into consideration (Playtech, gross casino oversight, huge potential winnings, etc) I would say, no.

Again I repeat: this is not a comment on the rights or wrongs of the actual situation as it now stands.
 
For what it's worth (maybe offtopic?):

I've generated a list of all casino's listed on the Playtech
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
and sorted them on their primary IP number. This shows which casino's are hosted by the same provider or share the same physical server.

A fragment:

Code:
clubdicecasino.com.     83831   IN      A       212.111.40.5
usacasino.com.          84004   IN      A       212.111.40.5
newyorkcasino.com.      84026   IN      A       212.111.40.5
carnivalcasino.com.     84339   IN      A       212.111.40.5
monacogoldcasino.com.   84228   IN      A       212.111.40.5
joylandcasino.com.      86400   IN      A       212.111.40.5

The full list is attached.
 
Update

I regret that I have to report that after four days of exchanging views with both Joyland and Playtech management there has thus far been no useful progress on this matter.

Joyland is adamant that the only players penalised were taking blatant advantage of their comp point miscalculation, and they have not shifted a millimetre from their position posted earlier by LiatK in this thread.

I would therefore urge players directly affected by this to consider what action they intend taking in the immediate future.

Using the Playtech disputes channel would not appear to be a viable option in this particular Joyland case, as imo the management there would appear to be supporting the casino.

I would therefore suggest that PABs to Bryan here at Casinomeister is the best way forward. Bryan will hopefully be able to achieve a better result with these people than I have.
 
To All Joyland players participating in Casinomeister's forums and all players in general.

I have read all of this thread and was keeping track on your replays and complaints. I hope this will be an answer to all of those.

A few weeks ago, Joyland casino had a problem, which we couldn't quite trace, until this situation. The problem was that our comp points system had a problem with calculating the amount of comp points per wager, crediting more then $1 to a $10 bet. This is unreasonable.

On August 7th we have received a few e-mails from concerned players, explaining us the situation. Those players were pointing out, that it looks like there is a bug in the software, crediting quite a lot of comp points (and therefore real money). When we found out about it, we made a decision about what to do.

Players who did not abuse the system, and accidentally "used" the comp points system got their withdraw (if they made any) without a problem.
Players who DID abuse the system, thus used the comp points system to keep on playing and playing (until, eventually they hit and withdrawn), we have decided to remove their winnings, and refund their funds back to their choice of deposit method.

We are aware of the fact that the comp points error was posted in forums on August 2nd and 3rd (and earlier), resulting a lot of players who read about it to log in and abuse the system. Most of those forums have already removed this thread (surprisingly) , but you can still locate some forums discussing about Joyland comp points system.
I Find it hard to believe that players converted more then $1000 (!) worth of comp points at one time (they later converted more and more), and didn't think it was a problem.
We have the comp system explained completly on our website (It was always there) at :
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The comp point system until august 7th was not working according to what stated at the website due to this software problem.

Those players, who abused the system, will not receive their withdraws, because they used a breach, instead of letting us know about it.
I am aware of the fact that this should had been traced by us, and it was, but only after a few players though they could take enormous amounts without even "winning" anything.

We had a player, who used a weird way of gambling. He was playing roulette, and his wager was Black-Red and 0 (Green) at the highest possible bet he could place. I am not sure what can be won this way, but he sure wagered enough to convert quite a lot of comp points.

We have Video poker players that played and wagered, until they have lost their initial deposit and bonus, but had quite a lot of comp points to convert and keep on playing, until, eventually, they won (naturally). Those players used a bug in the software to gain winnings, and eventually withdraw what they consider to be their winnings, but we consider as an abuse of the system.

We had players who were playing for more then 13 hours in a row, with a very unique way of playing - every 15 minutes of playing they would have converted the comp points (probably because they didn't know when the bug will be fixed) and kept on playing. 13 hours every day, 3 days in a row, without letting us know.

We have tried contacting (by phone and e-mails) and explaining all players involved in this case what had happened and why we have made this decision. If anyone was not contacted, we urge you to contact us at our toll free number - 1-866-516-0607, or our international phone number - 1-268-481-2265.

Please be assured that players who did not abuse the comp points system did receive their winnings. Players who won using their own deposit and bonus have already received their winnings. We are a respectful casino, and we will honor any win and withdraw our satisfied players have. But as a casino, we will not tolerate abusing a system. We thanked and rewarded players who have told us about the problem.

If any of Joyland players who did not receive his winnings think that we have made a mistake with his account (and again, mistakes do happen, and we are sorry if they did), please make sure to contact us, explaining the situation.
Any case will be investigated and handled again, to be sure that we haven't made a mistake with any specific player.
If you feel that you are not a part of the people who have used the problem, and are eligible to your winnings and any other player who wish to be contacted or contact us, please do so.

We are available at the phones i have entered, and available through e-mail at support@joylandcasino.com or management@joylandcasino.com .
You may also send me a private message in this forum, and I will replay.

We are not suggesting, and never suggested that these players are bonus abusers.

Thank you for the understanding in this matter.

Joyland casino.
 
Joyland said:
To All Joyland players participating in Casinomeister's forums and all players in general.

I have read all of this thread and was keeping track on your replays and complaints. I hope this will be an answer to all of those.

A few weeks ago, Joyland casino had a problem, which we couldn't quite trace, until this situation. The problem was that our comp points system had a problem with calculating the amount of comp points per wager, crediting more then $1 to a $10 bet. This is unreasonable.

On August 7th we have received a few e-mails from concerned players, explaining us the situation. Those players were pointing out, that it looks like there is a bug in the software, crediting quite a lot of comp points (and therefore real money). When we found out about it, we made a decision about what to do.

Players who did not abuse the system, and accidentally "used" the comp points system got their withdraw (if they made any) without a problem.
Players who DID abuse the system, thus used the comp points system to keep on playing and playing (until, eventually they hit and withdrawn), we have decided to remove their winnings, and refund their funds back to their choice of deposit method.

We are aware of the fact that the comp points error was posted in forums on August 2nd and 3rd (and earlier), resulting a lot of players who read about it to log in and abuse the system. Most of those forums have already removed this thread (surprisingly) , but you can still locate some forums discussing about Joyland comp points system.
I Find it hard to believe that players converted more then $1000 (!) worth of comp points at one time (they later converted more and more), and didn't think it was a problem.
We have the comp system explained completly on our website (It was always there) at :
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The comp point system until august 7th was not working according to what stated at the website due to this software problem.

Those players, who abused the system, will not receive their withdraws, because they used a breach, instead of letting us know about it.
I am aware of the fact that this should had been traced by us, and it was, but only after a few players though they could take enormous amounts without even "winning" anything.

We had a player, who used a weird way of gambling. He was playing roulette, and his wager was Black-Red and 0 (Green) at the highest possible bet he could place. I am not sure what can be won this way, but he sure wagered enough to convert quite a lot of comp points.

We have Video poker players that played and wagered, until they have lost their initial deposit and bonus, but had quite a lot of comp points to convert and keep on playing, until, eventually, they won (naturally). Those players used a bug in the software to gain winnings, and eventually withdraw what they consider to be their winnings, but we consider as an abuse of the system.

We had players who were playing for more then 13 hours in a row, with a very unique way of playing - every 15 minutes of playing they would have converted the comp points (probably because they didn't know when the bug will be fixed) and kept on playing. 13 hours every day, 3 days in a row, without letting us know.

We have tried contacting (by phone and e-mails) and explaining all players involved in this case what had happened and why we have made this decision. If anyone was not contacted, we urge you to contact us at our toll free number - 1-866-516-0607, or our international phone number - 1-268-481-2265.

Please be assured that players who did not abuse the comp points system did receive their winnings. Players who won using their own deposit and bonus have already received their winnings. We are a respectful casino, and we will honor any win and withdraw our satisfied players have. But as a casino, we will not tolerate abusing a system. We thanked and rewarded players who have told us about the problem.

If any of Joyland players who did not receive his winnings think that we have made a mistake with his account (and again, mistakes do happen, and we are sorry if they did), please make sure to contact us, explaining the situation.
Any case will be investigated and handled again, to be sure that we haven't made a mistake with any specific player.
If you feel that you are not a part of the people who have used the problem, and are eligible to your winnings and any other player who wish to be contacted or contact us, please do so.

We are available at the phones i have entered, and available through e-mail at support@joylandcasino.com or management@joylandcasino.com .
You may also send me a private message in this forum, and I will replay.

We are not suggesting, and never suggested that these players are bonus abusers.

Thank you for the understanding in this matter.

Joyland casino.

i think it has been pretty well figured out that it was not a "software bug" it was more like a casino employee entering the wrong conversion rate
 
More than $1 per $10 bet? I believe it was actually a 4% comp rate. I would find it somewhat incredible that a representative of the casino could be so wrong. All then again, maybe I shouldn't. Perhaps exagerating the situation to make the player look bad?
 
largeeyes said:
More than $1 per $10 bet? I believe it was actually a 4% comp rate. I would find it somewhat incredible that a representative of the casino could be so wrong. All then again, maybe I shouldn't. Perhaps exagerating the situation to make the player look bad?

perhaps meant more then 1 comp point per $10 bet
 
Joyland said:
Those players, who abused the system, will not receive their withdraws, because they used a breach, instead of letting us know about it.
You offered a generous comp point conversion rate - there wasn't any breach or software error. Perhaps you entered the wrong number, but that's your fault and you can't transfer any blame onto players. No-one "abused" your system, they just used it. Yes, it was favourable for players, but it's up to you to choose and monitor your systems, not players. If you are a "respectful" casino, as you claim, then you should accept it was your error and pay all involved. You might also want to explain why you deleted player logs and transaction records.
 
Joyland said:
To All Joyland players participating in Casinomeister's forums and all players in general.

I have read all of this thread and was keeping track on your replays and complaints. I hope this will be an answer to all of those.

A few weeks ago, Joyland casino had a problem, which we couldn't quite trace, until this situation. The problem was that our comp points system had a problem with calculating the amount of comp points per wager, crediting more then $1 to a $10 bet. This is unreasonable.

You couldn't quite trace it? Why not? The only way the comp points ratio could have got this way is if you set it like that. This doesn't ring true.

And unreasonable is a matter of opinion. 4% is quite a lot (40 cents per $10 bet), enough to give players at best a 3.5%+ edge. I don't see how it's unreasonable if you set a certain comp point ratio that people will play for it. Any more than it's reasonable for players to play keno, complain there's an 8% edge to you, the casino, and then ask for their money back when they lose.

On August 7th we have received a few e-mails from concerned players, explaining us the situation. Those players were pointing out, that it looks like there is a bug in the software, crediting quite a lot of comp points (and therefore real money). When we found out about it, we made a decision about what to do.

Players who did not abuse the system, and accidentally "used" the comp points system got their withdraw (if they made any) without a problem.
Players who DID abuse the system, thus used the comp points system to keep on playing and playing (until, eventually they hit and withdrawn), we have decided to remove their winnings, and refund their funds back to their choice of deposit method.

We are aware of the fact that the comp points error was posted in forums on August 2nd and 3rd (and earlier), resulting a lot of players who read about it to log in and abuse the system. Most of those forums have already removed this thread (surprisingly) , but you can still locate some forums discussing about Joyland comp points system.
I Find it hard to believe that players converted more then $1000 (!) worth of comp points at one time (they later converted more and more), and didn't think it was a problem.
We have the comp system explained completly on our website (It was always there) at :
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The comp point system until august 7th was not working according to what stated at the website due to this software problem.

It seems disingenuous to describe this as a software problem. The software can behave in only one way - the way it was set by the operator.

It was set to pay out one comp for every $0.25 set, with 100 comps converting to $1, and then later to 150 comps to $1.

Did the software change itself to 150 comps to $1? I don't think so.

A casino employee set it to $0.25/1, 100/$1, and then again set it to 150/$1.

That's not what I would call a software problem.

Those players, who abused the system, will not receive their withdraws, because they used a breach, instead of letting us know about it.
I am aware of the fact that this should had been traced by us, and it was, but only after a few players though they could take enormous amounts without even "winning" anything.

We have Video poker players that played and wagered, until they have lost their initial deposit and bonus, but had quite a lot of comp points to convert and keep on playing, until, eventually, they won (naturally).

Naturally? We have already seen one poster in this thread say that he lost, so there is certainly no guarantee whatsoever that you will win.

I'm sure we've all experienced times when we've lost all our money in rates well over 4% as well.

I'm not sure why you would expect people to contact you. Your software behaves in a certain way, because you set it that way.

Those players used a bug in the software to gain winnings, and eventually withdraw what they consider to be their winnings, but we consider as an abuse of the system.

Again, this was not a bug. The software behaved exactly as designed.

The comp rate was set a particular way, and the software paid out accordingly.

We had players who were playing for more then 13 hours in a row, with a very unique way of playing - every 15 minutes of playing they would have converted the comp points (probably because they didn't know when the bug will be fixed) and kept on playing. 13 hours every day, 3 days in a row, without letting us know.

Please be assured that players who did not abuse the comp points system did receive their winnings. Players who won using their own deposit and bonus have already received their winnings. We are a respectful casino, and we will honor any win and withdraw our satisfied players have. But as a casino, we will not tolerate abusing a system. We thanked and rewarded players who have told us about the problem.

This is not a very good attitude. Players played because you offered a generous comps ratio. Playtech displays this comp ratio clearly in the software. People will have played purely because of the comps. Some will have lost. Some will have won. One player indicated that he hit a large Royal Flush win very quickly ($20,000). Obviously with such a win you would normally cash out straight away, but he continued to play I can only imagine purely because of the comp point ratio that you had set.

Given this, it's not very fair to say that: given (a) player wins, (b) player keeps playing knowing that generous comps are being given, and only because of that reason keeps playng (c) player forfeits winnings.

It's impossible to fairly withhold winnings from people who had every right to claim and redeem the comps you offered, and to somehow claim this is abuse. When a casino doesn't like the player counting cards while playing blackjack, it has every right to ask him to leave, but no right to wait till he has won $10,000, and then take him to the back room before taking his chips from him and kicking him out the back door.

We are not suggesting, and never suggested that these players are bonus abusers.

Really? So why do you use the word 'abuse' in your post so much?
 
Players who won using their own deposit and bonus have already received their winnings. We are a respectful casino, and we will honor any win and withdraw our satisfied players have.


Does this mean I get my 1K+ sign up win no dispute you are going to pay me.

Not happy that every customer is obliged to tell you it is not that obvious. I for one did not notice anything unsual I just thought I was very lucky and went to bed very happy.
 
On August 7th we have received a few e-mails from concerned players, explaining us the situation. Those players were pointing out, that it looks like there is a bug in the software, crediting quite a lot of comp points (and therefore real money). When we found out about it, we made a decision about what to do.

Those players, who abused the system, will not receive their withdraws, because they used a breach, instead of letting us know about it.

We thanked and rewarded players who have told us about the problem.
I'm a neutral observer in this whole mess. But the thing that strikes me most (other than Joyland's utter lack of an explanation as to why they falsified player logs), is the underlying tone that players have an obligation to report the fact that they are winning to the casino, and that if they don't, then the casino is perfectly within their rights to take their winnings(!).
 
Joyland said:
We have the comp system explained completly on our website (It was always there) at :
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
. The comp point system until august 7th was not working according to what stated at the website due to this software problem.

I believe it has been all but proven this was no software problem.

about your comp points terms page
quoted from your page:
At Joyland Casino, the more you play, the more comp points you accumulate.
The more Comp points you accumulate, the more money you will have available to win!
This is exactly what I was doing
And the best thing of all, is that once you are in a VIP Club, you get more money, for less Comp points... Therefore you win more, even if you play less...
By taking your high roller signup bonus and and wagering highly risky bets at video poker and blackjack, and I wasnt even playing very good basic strategy? for my VIP welcome I was given a locked out account, erased history and to this day have not been contacted. Nor will I continue to call an unanswered phone
 
Posting another belated, detailed (and very controversial) *explanation* like this is not a solution to this mess, although players should note the offer to review specific cases where they (the players) feel they have been treated unfairly.

Unfortunately, this *solution* does not cover the probably significant number of players who don't frequent message boards and legitimately thought the comp points were intended as a real incentive to play....and win.

Judging by the comments made by players here and elsewhere, I get the feeling that all the disqualifications were NOT (as Joyland claims) justified. This was clearly a casino error, and the players are being made to pay for it imo. That is not treating the customer with respect or integrity imo.

And we still have that expunged transactions log question unanswered.

This is not reflecting well on Joyland in my view.
 
Update:

After the post on this forum, I contacted Joyland Management and asked them to re-examine my betting pattern for abuse of the comps system. Because I believe I didn't abuse the system, I just hit the Convert Comps button after playing.
Today I was called by Joyland and was told they have credited my account with my winnings, minus the money from the comps. What I think is a fair solution.

So if you believe you didn't abuse the system, contact the Joyland Management and ask them to re-examine your betting history.
 
Amsterdamn said:
Update:

After the post on this forum, I contacted Joyland Management and asked them to re-examine my betting pattern for abuse of the comps system. Because I believe I didn't abuse the system, I just hit the Convert Comps button after playing.
Today I was called by Joyland and was told they have credited my account with my winnings, minus the money from the comps. What I think is a fair solution.

So if you believe you didn't abuse the system, contact the Joyland Management and ask them to re-examine your betting history.

So lets say they offered an incredibly generous $1000 bonus with a 2x wagering requirement because of their own error which you deposited for and played through.

You cash out a healthy profit (D+B+Winnings) and they first steal all of your profits (including B+Winnings) then they decide they'll give you your winnings later, you think thats fair?

You weren't abusing the system and they still didn't pay you what they owed you from their 'software glitch.' I'd be pissed.

Freakin
 
freakin said:
So lets say they offered an incredibly generous $1000 bonus with a 2x wagering requirement because of their own error which you deposited for and played through.
The situations are not entirely analogous: in what circumstances could this be claimed as an error by the casino? If you had screenshot confirmation of written terms at 2X, there would be no way for them to claim an error.

With such a gargantuan cock-up this was always on the cards. Sucks, I know, but shooting for payment on this 4% comp rate was playing with some serious fire.
 
caruso said:
With such a gargantuan cock-up this was always on the cards. Sucks, I know, but shooting for payment on this 4% comp rate was playing with some serious fire.

I understand what you're getting at, but I respectfully disagree.

I don't really think that a casino's likelyhood not to pay should lend to it's consideration when defending the non-payment of players.

Players "cashing in" comp points is not actionable proof that they were "abusing" it.

The Gunslinger
 
caruso said:
The situations are not entirely analogous: in what circumstances could this be claimed as an error by the casino? If you had screenshot confirmation of written terms at 2X, there would be no way for them to claim an error.

With such a gargantuan cock-up this was always on the cards. Sucks, I know, but shooting for payment on this 4% comp rate was playing with some serious fire.

Joyland's webpage during the time period in question said that comp points were paid out one for every .25 wagered (just like the rest of the Crown Solutions casinos) and it said that the rate at which you can cash in comp points depends on your VIP status. Is it unreasonable to assume a player depositing for a VIP High Roller bonus would not be made a VIP with a higher than average comp point cashin rate?

Freakin
 
All I can say is WOW!

If Playtech will not fix this mess, then Playtech software should be list as rogue. If the software allows for doctoring of logs, then the software is risky to play.

I understand that Casino really screw up, but players play to win. They don't play to lose money, and they make the rules before hand. THEY SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO CHANGE THE RULES AFTERWARDS!!

This is BS and Playtech needs to fix it.
 
After my account got credited (~ $1100) and I cashed-in, Joyland contacted me saying they forgot to subtract the 808 bonus. On the previous call I was told I could cash-in the full amount.
I only got ~$300, so that sucks. I'm done with this casino.
 
The Gunslinger said:
I understand what you're getting at, but I respectfully disagree. I don't really think that a casino's likelyhood not to pay should lend to it's consideration when defending the non-payment of players.
I think your disagreement comes from misinterpretation of my post as defense of non-payment, which it absolutely wasn't; my point was simply that this was an extremely risky situation to attempt to exploit - it had nightmares written all over it, for the reasons I suggested above.

Freakin said:
Joyland's webpage during the time period in question said that comp points were paid out one for every .25 wagered (just like the rest of the Crown Solutions casinos) and it said that the rate at which you can cash in comp points depends on your VIP status. Is it unreasonable to assume a player depositing for a VIP High Roller bonus would not be made a VIP with a higher than average comp point cashin rate?
The key being "assume". However VIP anyone is, a 4% comp rate is extraordinary. To achieve such a level, if such exists, a player would have to be a seriously known quantity as a provenly serious sucker, with a lot of sucker-play history in the bag at the casino in question. To achieve that 4% level on signup is, I'm sure, unheard of. On that basis, yes, this was an unreasonable assumption. And again, the key is "assumption": there was no written backup to any of this. It was always going to be far too easy for the casino to fudge its way out of.

At the risk of chasing my own tail here, again I say: kudos to you folks for a good spot and a ballsy shot, but the potential payment issues in my opinion far and away outweighed the potential winnings. Ten bucks or a million, if they ain't going to pay, don't touch it.
 
Amsterdamn said:
After my account got credited (~ $1100) and I cashed-in, Joyland contacted me saying they forgot to subtract the 808 bonus. On the previous call I was told I could cash-in the full amount.
I only got ~$300, so that sucks. I'm done with this casino.

These guys just go from bad to worse, it seems and by now they know damn well that their actions lack integrity and fairness.

That being the case, they are best left to sink into oblivion in my view - who knows what trick they will next try to play.
 

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