Complaints Section

[reject726]

My point is that it's not like you've been kicked to the curb or anything like that, it's just that until you've earned your stripes here you can't contribute to a particular section of the site. That isn't much different than just about any club, group or organization that I can think of: contributing members get wider access, no biggie.

The difference being that this site sells itself as a casino watchdog. To restrict who can be part of that for whatever reason is wrong.

 

[Casinomeister]

The difference being that this site sells itself as a casino watchdog. To restrict who can be part of that for whatever reason is wrong.

Well then you haven't a clue on how to "complain" tactfully and effectively.

No one is restricting anyone - newbies are free to complain as much as they want via the PAB system. Don't confuse this with restriction - the complaints are being heard and dealt with daily.

And please don't forget, we wouldn't have this issue if newbies had not continually abused the complaints section. I didn't just do this on a whim.

Far too many newbies either abused the complaint sections, or they failed to read the forum rules (which are posted all over the damn place) or they chose not to abide by them. So we made complaining here a privilege you have to invest some time and effort into this forum if you want to bitch in public. I'm surprised that some members find fault in that.

All newbies are allowed to complain via PAB which in my opinion is much more effective than posting a complaint in public.

I could lift the "restriction", but what do we do when members start effing up? If you have any reasonable suggestions, I'm listening.

BTW, some of you need to remember this is Casinomeister, not Complainomeister Complaining is not the heart and soul of Casinomeister: <gasp!> it's providing information. This place is not providing viable information when newbie members are spewing spewage without a care.

 

[lots0]

Don't agree.

Anyone can Pitch A Bitch.

You can also contribute your opinion (like you just did)... Right now.

Most of the folks that been around here for a while get tired of seeing posts by newbees where some casino is irrationally and improperly accused of cheating because someone had a losing session...

The difference being that this site sells itself as a casino watchdog. To restrict who can be part of that for whatever reason is wrong.

 

[Antonia1953]

Honestly, I do not understand the problem with this. The new members still have access to assistance and support with problems. The only restriction is not being allowed to publicly display the problem. What is most important...assistance in fixing the problem or venting frustration?

I would be interested to know, how many newbie complaints in the last year there were in total and what percentage of that total were fraudulent. An enormous amount of time and effort are invested in these supportive activities. It is a free and valuable benefit of this forum, which is a privately owned site. A new member can receive assistance prior to making any contribution to the forum at all!

Any forum can be used for a variety of bad conduct and unfair publicity. What is it about this that is so confusing?

 

[maxd]

... how many newbie complaints in the last year there were in total and what percentage of that total were fraudulent.

I'm just finishing up the PAB report for December, and then I'll be able to produce the stats for the year as a whole. At a guess I'd say that 20-30% of the PABs filed turn out to involve player fraud in one form or another.

 

[reject726]

Well then you haven't a clue on how to "complain" tactfully and effectively.

What a wonderful, professional response. Have you lifted the restriction on people PABing non accredited casinos? No? Then they are restricted. Have you allowed people to even reply to posts in the complaints section? No Then they are restricted.

I dont see why people are restricted. Is it because the casinos dont appreciate coming on forums and clearing their names? Im afraid thats life and ordinary people are faced with it every day. If they have nothing to hide then they would be afraid of nothing.

 

[Pinababy69]

What is most important...assistance in fixing the problem or venting frustration?

For myself, it's got nothing to do with venting, publicly or otherwise. It's about information. I want to know which casinos are screwing up, whether that be through pure error, or more sinister motives.

At a guess I'd say that 20-30% of the PABs filed turn out to involve player fraud in one form or another.

Okay, so even on the high end, approximately 30% involve player fraud. That leaves 70% unaccounted for. Obviously some are legit, some have no basis, some are a simple case of the player not reading the T&C's. I understand that. I realize that not every PAB that is submitted is legitimate, nor would I take as gospel every new complaint posted on the forum.

But to just quote percentages of resolved complaints, etc.....not enough for me. I want to know which casinos are doing what. Even if they resolve an issue satisfactorily, that doesn't mean it would be a casino I would ever play at. Point is that players shouldn't have to PAB, or go to eCOGRA, or worry about non-payment...and so on. I realize it's a part of this game...I'm just saying for myself, I prefer to deal with casinos who play fair all of the time...not just when Casinomeister brings them a PAB or someone files a dispute with eCOGRA.

I don't want to play at a casino where it took a player getting Casinomeister involved to collect their winnings...and as it stands now, I don't know who those are. That's the problem I have with this whole thing.

I get the other side as well..but honestly, I don't see where casinos need protecting from libelous claims. I'd say the majority of long-time posters here are savvy enough to determine what constitutes a legit complaint and when someone is yanking our chains. Maybe not always...but that would be the time when I would expect Bryan or Max to step in, and provide further info, if needed.

The way it stands now, this past month could have seen a dozen complaints filed against 32Red, Inetbet, 3Dice, Club World, etc. Who knows? I seriously doubt it, but who knows. And I'm sure they would be dealt with satisfactorily. But the point I'm trying to make is that I personally don't want to play at a place that has a dozen complaints filed against it....I don't care who it is. If they're screwing up that bad, I want to know.

I've stayed well clear of this debate.....and for good reason. This is Bryan's site, his name, his work...I respect that. If this is the way he wants to do things, his choice, and I'm not about to argue with him about it. I just wanted to weigh in as the topic once again got brought up. Obviously, I'm still here, and still contributing....so I can live with it. Just doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

EDIT: I post here, and go to Online Casinos, and see this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/club-world-vs-cds-montana-resolution.31275/

See, perfect example of what I'm trying to say. I want to know if one of the casinos that I personally consider reputable is up to anything hinky. I'm not making any judgements, I don't have near enough info as yet....but I still wanna know about it. That's about all I'm gonna say on this.

 

[vegetagirl2008]

What a wonderful, professional response. Have you lifted the restriction on people PABing non accredited casinos? No? Then they are restricted. Have you allowed people to even reply to posts in the complaints section? No Then they are restricted.

Its because its wasted time and effort to PAB a casino that's not accredited because the majority of the time they will not pay, so why even bother.

 

[RobWin]

For myself, it's got nothing to do with venting, publicly or otherwise. It's about information. I want to know which casinos are screwing up, whether that be through pure error, or more sinister motives.



Okay, so even on the high end, approximately 30% involve player fraud. That leaves 70% unaccounted for. Obviously some are legit, some have no basis, some are a simple case of the player not reading the T&C's. I understand that. I realize that not every PAB that is submitted is legitimate, nor would I take as gospel every new complaint posted on the forum.

But to just quote percentages of resolved complaints, etc.....not enough for me. I want to know which casinos are doing what. Even if they resolve an issue satisfactorily, that doesn't mean it would be a casino I would ever play at. Point is that players shouldn't have to PAB, or go to eCOGRA, or worry about non-payment...and so on. I realize it's a part of this game...I'm just saying for myself, I prefer to deal with casinos who play fair all of the time...not just when Casinomeister brings them a PAB or someone files a dispute with eCOGRA.

I don't want to play at a casino where it took a player getting Casinomeister involved to collect their winnings...and as it stands now, I don't know who those are. That's the problem I have with this whole thing.

I get the other side as well..but honestly, I don't see where casinos need protecting from libelous claims. I'd say the majority of long-time posters here are savvy enough to determine what constitutes a legit complaint and when someone is yanking our chains. Maybe not always...but that would be the time when I would expect Bryan or Max to step in, and provide further info, if needed.

The way it stands now, this past month could have seen a dozen complaints filed against 32Red, Inetbet, 3Dice, Club World, etc. Who knows? I seriously doubt it, but who knows. And I'm sure they would be dealt with satisfactorily. But the point I'm trying to make is that I personally don't want to play at a place that has a dozen complaints filed against it....I don't care who it is. If they're screwing up that bad, I want to know.

I've stayed well clear of this debate.....and for good reason. This is Bryan's site, his name, his work...I respect that. If this is the way he wants to do things, his choice, and I'm not about to argue with him about it. I just wanted to weigh in as the topic once again got brought up. Obviously, I'm still here, and still contributing....so I can live with it. Just doesn't mean I have to agree with it.

EDIT: I post here, and go to Online Casinos, and see this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/club-world-vs-cds-montana-resolution.31275/

See, perfect example of what I'm trying to say. I want to know if one of the casinos that I personally consider reputable is up to anything hinky. I'm not making any judgements, I don't have near enough info as yet....but I still wanna know about it. That's about all I'm gonna say on this.

Pina, you make a hell of a lot of good points there and I agree with at least 98% of them..

On the one hand though I can understand maybe one of the reasons that Bryan set it up this way. The other problem too is that a newbie comes in here bashing one of the casinos with a Frivolous Thread Title and then later it's found out to be untrue or a fraudulent player making these outrageous claims, now the problem is that the casino has been found innocent but the damage has already been partially done to the casinos reputation in the SERP's by that Frivolous Thread Title.

Now on the other hand if it could somehow be setup as to not bash the casinos in the thread title then I would not see any problem at all with all the newbies coming in here and complaining and telling their story. That is something that we all do need to know about and make our own decisions upon whether we choose to believe them or not believe them. I also think that the senior members here are purdy damn good too at smelling a rat and flushing them out amongst ourselves. I think most of us would fry their ass for any public bashing that we thought was unfair to the casino in question.

I made this point before in another thread around here someplace that it could be set up in a way for only the original OP to post in the thread along with only senior members here and that way the thread would not get out of control and the senior members could agree or rebut the claims and then escalate it up the chain to Max or Bryan. Something along those lines anyway.

 

[Casinomeister]

What a wonderful, professional response. Have you lifted the restriction on people PABing non accredited casinos? No? Then they are restricted. Have you allowed people to even reply to posts in the complaints section? No Then they are restricted.

I'm glad you appreciate my frankness.

You're confusing "restrictions" with rules. Perhaps you fail to understand the nature of the PAB. It's a tool which ought not to be abused. Anyone - even you can PAB against ANY casino accredited or not. If it's in the rogue pit, we usually discard it since most of these operators no longer respond. It's a waste of time.

After you have PABd the first time, then you can only PAB on an accredited casino. Why is that? It's because PABing is a learning experience for the member - they are on their own if the continue to frequent xyz clipshot joint casino.com. Another reason for this is that we have a number of members who have 5 or more PABs. They are problematic gamblers who expect me to bail them out every time they run into a problem. Sorry, but that is not what this FREE service is all about.

So it's not restricted - we merely have rules to keep things in order. Just like you can't call someone a muthafucka in the forum. We have rules to maintain civility and common respect; perhaps you define this as a "restriction".

The ironic thing is a couple of days ago I was considering reopening the complaint section for all, but a number of you reminded me why this is a bad idea.

 

[Casinomeister]

Note: I'm still looking for some viable suggestions to enable everyone to post in the complaint sections. Some of you may feel that I like doing this - I don't. I want this forum to be open for everyone.

Maybe I need a hall monitor or two to slap newbies upside the head when they eff up.

 

[maxd]

I dont see why people are restricted. Is it because the casinos dont appreciate coming on forums and clearing their names? Im afraid thats life and ordinary people are faced with it every day. If they have nothing to hide then they would be afraid of nothing.

I believe it has been explained to you why we have the current system in place, (newbie) user abuse being the primary reason. If you still "don't see why" then either you have not listened or you choose to ignore what you've been told. In neither case do your fanciful speculations about the casinos contribute meaningfully to this discussion.

For myself, it's got nothing to do with venting, publicly or otherwise. It's about information. I want to know which casinos are screwing up, whether that be through pure error, or more sinister motives.

I'm going to respond in some detail to your post for two reasons:

#1: it is a pretty good example of an argument we hear from time to time, which unfortunately fails to take a barge-load of real-world issues into consideration.

#2: although you may not have specifically intended it so your post demonstrates a contempt and disrespect for what we do and how we do it. I'm not confronting you personally here but I do not think such offhand disregard should be allowed to pass unremarked.

So, first things first: we all want to know about casinos that are screwing up etc. The problem is that actually finding that out, knowing for a fact whether something is a screw-up or not, is a non-trivial issue.

Is it really a screw-up or is it fraud, for example? Casino or player fraud? Or it is a misunderstanding? Or an attempt to smear the casino? Or a change of rules that has caused people to be upset that things weren't like before? Or? Or? Or?

I spend almost all of my time here at Casinomeister answering exactly those questions and it often takes me weeks or months to get a real, solid answer to any given question. It's a complicated, tricky, sneaky, convoluted business that is almost never fairly addressed by a quick one-liner early in the process.

Given the nature of the beast it is by far the greater service to all involved to withhold information about ongoing cases until those cases have been resolved, for exactly the reason that few cases end up anywhere near where they started.

So, yes, you have a desire to know. But the bottom line is that there is no easy way to satisfy that desire. We offer a number of things -- PAB monthly reports, annual and bi-annual summaries, etc -- to help satisfy that desire for information but it's an imperfect, evolving thing. Comparatively speaking I think we do pretty well, if I may say so.

Okay, so even on the high end, approximately 30% involve player fraud. That leaves 70% unaccounted for.

This is a serious case of mixing up the apples and the oranges, with a dash of belittlement thrown in for good measure. First of all I was reporting the rough percentage of fraud from completed PABs, not from claims that used to be made here in the Complaints forums by newbies.

In the case of PABs nothing is "unaccounted for". You asked how much fraud, I told you my guesstimate. If you wanted other things "accounted for" you should have asked.

This is like me asking you how much your burger costs and when you tell me I get all blustery and say that the rest of your paycheque is "unaccounted for". Don't accuse someone of hiding information you never asked for, however back-handed the accusation.

As it happens the PABs break roughly into thirds: 1/3 player-related fraud, 1/3 casino fault, mistakes, etc and about 1/3 garbage cases (incomplete, abandoned, etc). These are rough numbers but they're not too terribly far off.

If we look back at how things used to be in the Complaints forums though -- that is, the unrestricted posting of casino complaints by any member -- things were very different. I recall it being more like 2/3 player-related fraud and the rest jumbled up in the remaining 1/3. And most of those posts were by newbie members who were basically doing hit-and-run: the seldom returned whether the case was resolved in their favour or not.

Ok, so now stop and think for a moment. Once you allow someone to post "Casino Z stole my money!" on the forums where does the issue go from there? Two things happen pretty quickly: (1) forum members demand that something be done, and (2) the casino peeps demand that something be done. Fine, now we have a new incident that needs attention. And who exactly is supposed to follow through on this? Is that instead of doing PABs, because you know an hour spent is an hour gone? And all this knowing that fully 2 in 3 of these is going to be a scam of one kind or another, if not simply spurious bitching because the forum provided a place to do it?

Your "right to know" needs to be weighed against the costs involved and since the Complaints forums posts are, or at least have been, the least reliable source of information on the subject it's a pretty logical step to start evaluating their worth.

But to just quote percentages of resolved complaints, etc.....not enough for me. I want to know which casinos are doing what.

Show me the money! Who's going to pay for all the time and effort it takes to compile, process, collate, update, revise, publish and republish all that information? Oh, you just want the raw free-for-all stuff of the forums? Great, who's going to chase all that down for you? Who's going to spend hour after hour per day trying to maintain order in there? Where's the manpower to do that? And the money to pay their wages?

If you want people to give you something you have to start asking these questions. And remember that nothing will happen until you can provide meaningful answers. I suspect you'll find it's a lot easier to make your demands than it is to offer workable solutions to providing them.

Point is that players shouldn't have to PAB, or go to eCOGRA, or worry about non-payment...and so on. I realize it's a part of this game...I'm just saying for myself, I prefer to deal with casinos who play fair all of the time...

All casinos, and I mean ALL casinos, get complaints. Casino Mother Teresa would get complaints! Casino Lady Di would have players bitching about getting screwed over for nickles. Why? Because there is money involved, plain and simple. If there is money on the table people will start reaching for it and that's when the squabbles begin, guaranteed!

There are no innocents in this business and so there will always be disputes. Fortunately though there are a good percentage of honest people too and their issues, if you look at them over time, do get resolved well and fairly. And that is precisely why the longer range view is the only way to get a fair picture of any given casino, or player for that matter. An instantaneous snapshot tells you nothing meaningful and will more often than not lead you to the wrong conclusion.

I don't want to play at a casino where it took a player getting Casinomeister involved to collect their winnings...and as it stands now, I don't know who those are.

And nor should you! Because without due process you have absolutely no clue whether a given complaint against a casino is player fraud, an honest mistake, casino skulduggery or just some wingnut at the computer after a fifth of bourbon. Raw data means almost nothing.

I don't see where casinos need protecting from libelous claims.

Ask around, I think you'll find that even the most reputable casino operators would take strong objection to that. I know from my own experience that casinos never want to be slandered, whether the claims against them are false or otherwise. This is a reputation-based business and it's all too easy for a forum wild-fire to damage or even destroy years of good, honest work. You not seeing the need for casinos to be protected from false claims is not an accurate reflection of the needs of the industry. Trust me, the casinos want a fair and level playing field just like the players do. And they have just as much right to it.

I'd say the majority of long-time posters here are savvy enough to determine what constitutes a legit complaint and when someone is yanking our chains.

Oh really? Well tell me where you bought your crystal ball because we could use a few of them around the office. Either I'm a lot stupider than you or I have a different reality to deal with because in my experience gut-feeling on these isn't much better than a coin toss. And I say this as one of the longest serving professionals in this business, with the full help and cooperation of at least two other of the longest serving professionals in this business.

If you've got the gift you should do something with it because it would be a shame to let it go to waste .. or are we talking armchair coaching here? Sitting in the bleachers calling out the fights? I'm sorry if I sound a little skeptical but it's a lot easier to say "oh you can tell" than it is to sit with a bunch of cases in front of you, make your intuition-based calls and end up with satisfactory resolutions at the end of the day. Much, much easier.

this past month could have seen a dozen complaints filed against 32Red, Inetbet, 3Dice, Club World, etc. Who knows?

Indeed, it could have happened. And what if it had? What possible difference would it, or should it, make? No offense but you seem to be resting an awful lot of faith on the supposition that if complaints occur then there is something to complain about. This is a momumentally false assumption.

Complaints occur for many reasons, not the least of which is group attempts to defraud or defame a casino. If this strikes you as unlikely or improbable then I'm sorry but that's because you haven't seen it, dealt with it, experienced it.

So, there we are. In conclusion I'll reiterate that this was not a rebuttal to you personally but to these types of criticisms in general. As it happens your points are fairly typical and thus made good talking points. My apologies in advance if I hurt your feelings in the pursuit of my arguments.

Regards,
Max Drayman
Casinomeister.com, Player Grievance Manager

 

[Casinomeister]

...
EDIT: I post here, and go to Online Casinos, and see this:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/club-world-vs-cds-montana-resolution.31275/

See, perfect example of what I'm trying to say. I want to know if one of the casinos that I personally consider reputable is up to anything hinky. I'm not making any judgements, I don't have near enough info as yet....but I still wanna know about it. That's about all I'm gonna say on this.

Aha! and you see how easy it is to get jerked around by newbie

Do you think a member who has invested his/her time would have jerked us around like this? The complaint section is still open - and the members who post there have earned this privilege. Most of them know the deal about posting and understand what is expected of a member.

 

[Pinababy69]

#2: although you may not have specifically intended it so your post demonstrates a contempt and disrespect for what we do and how we do it. I'm not confronting you personally here but I do not think such offhand disregard should be allowed to pass unremarked.

Honestly Max, there was no disrespect meant...I think I actually made a point of saying that I DO respect that this is Bryan's site, and his work, and his name....and obviously it's his choice how he runs the site. And certainly no contempt. I was simply offering my own viewpoint....if it doesn't agree with others, I'm sorry for that. But I've never been a conformer anyway. And I didn't take your post personally, so no worries.

I spend almost all of my time here at Casinomeister answering exactly those questions and it often takes me weeks or months to get a real, solid answer to any given question. It's a complicated, tricky, sneaky, convoluted business that is almost never fairly addressed by a quick one-liner early in the process.

I don't profess to know what goes on behind the scenes here, never have....and honestly, I wouldn't want your job Max. I'd end up getting so pissed off, I'd probably end up drinking six days out of seven. I'd be pissed at the shady casinos who rip off innocent people, I'd be pissed at the stupid players who insist on frequenting the roguest of the rogue establishments, and yes, I'd be pissed at the fraudsters who waste my time.

But neither was I speaking of addressing issues based on a quick one-liner, in this case posted on a forum.....or assessing their validity without having as many facts as are available to us.

But the bottom line is that there is no easy way to satisfy that desire.

Never said it was easy. If it were, we wouldn't be here having this discussion. I know there are no easy answers, and no way to satisfy everyone.

You asked how much fraud, I told you my guesstimate. If you wanted other things "accounted for" you should have asked.

I haven't asked for anything. I simply stated an opinion, and perhaps (mis?) quoted your stat of 30% of PAB's being player fraud.

This is a serious case of mixing up the apples and the oranges, with a dash of belittlement thrown in for good measure. First of all I was reporting the rough percentage of fraud from completed PABs, not from claims that used to be made here in the Complaints forums by newbies.

This is like me asking you how much your burger costs and when you tell me I get all blustery and say that the rest of your paycheque is "unaccounted for". Don't accuse someone of hiding information you never asked for, however back-handed the accusation.

Belittlement? Back-handed accusation? I didn't belittle anyone, nor did I accuse you or anyone else of anything, including hiding information. Again, I simply made a comment about the 30% of PAB's being player fraud, and then extrapolating that the rest consisted of legit and non-legit complaints.

As it happens the PABs break roughly into thirds: 1/3 player-related fraud, 1/3casino fault, mistakes, etc and about 1/3 garbage cases (incomplete, abandoned, etc). These are rough numbers but they're not too terribly far off.

See, it's those 1/3 casino fault that I want to know about. Notice that I used the word "want"....never said "need" to know. It's simply all about info, plain and simple. IMO, the more for the player, the better.

If we look back at how things used to be in the Complaints forums though -- that is, the unrestricted posting of casino complaints by any member -- things were very different. I recall it being more like 2/3 player-related fraud and the rest jumbled up in the remaining 1/3. And most of those posts were by newbie members who were basically doing hit-and-run: the seldom returned whether the case was resolved in their favour or not.

Ok, so now stop and think for a moment. Once you allow someone to post "Casino Z stole my money!" on the forums where does the issue go from there? Two things happen pretty quickly: (1) forum members demand that something be done, and (2) the casino peeps demand that something be done. Fine, now we have a new incident that needs attention. And who exactly is supposed to follow through on this? Is that instead of doing PABs, because you know an hour spent is an hour gone? And all this knowing that fully 2 in 3 of these is going to be a scam of one kind or another, if not simply spurious bitching because the forum provided a place to do it?

Your "right to know" needs to be weighed against the costs involved and since the Complaints forums posts are, or at least have been, the least reliable source of information on the subject it's a pretty logical step to start evaluating their worth.

Show me the money! Who's going to pay for all the time and effort it takes to compile, process, collate, update, revise, publish and republish all that information? Oh, you just want the raw free-for-all stuff of the forums? Great, who's going to chase all that down for you? Who's going to spend hour after hour per day trying to maintain order in there? Where's the manpower to do that? And the money to pay their wages?

If you want people to give you something you have to start asking these questions. And remember that nothing will happen until you can provide meaningful answers. I suspect you'll find it's a lot easier to make your demands than it is to offer workable solutions to providing them.

Agreed on the fact that there probably were a good number of hit and runs under the old format. But see, I give the members here (at least most of them), alot more credit to be able to weed out the legit from the bogus. Maybe not every time, but alot of the time. For you to make a statement like "forum members demand something be done"? I really can't recall there being a huge uproar ever raised over anything that turned out to be a non-issue, or frivolous complaint. Anytime the members of this forum have banded together, shown solidarity and "demanded" action, has usually been over something pretty significant.

Again, you're accusing me (or not me?) of making demands. I haven't demanded a thing, simply stated my opinion that I didn't agree with the present format. I'm still allowed to do that right? Disagree?

You're right, I don't have a solution to the dilemma, I wish I did. I never said you job was easy, or Bryan's job. I didn't realize that not having the answer precluded me from having an opinion (or anyone else for that matter).

All casinos, and I mean ALL casinos, get complaints. Casino Mother Teresa would get complaints! Casino Lady Di would have players bitching about getting screwed over for nickles. Why? Because there is money involved, plain and simple. If there is money on the table people will start reaching for it and that's when the squabbles begin, guaranteed!

There are no innocents in this business and so there will always be disputes. Fortunately though there are a good percentage of honest people too and their issues, if you look at them over time, do get resolved well and fairly. And that is precisely why the longer range view is the only way to get a fair picture of any given casino, or player for that matter. An instantaneous snapshot tells you nothing meaningful and will more often than not lead you to the wrong conclusion.

And nor should you! Because without due process you have absolutely no clue whether a given complaint against a casino is player fraud, an honest mistake, casino skulduggery or just some wingnut at the computer after a fifth of bourbon. Raw data means almost nothing.

If Casino Lady Di is petty enough to screw a player over for nickels, then I definitely don't wanna play there. You give one the impression that because it's a small amount, it's not a valid complaint. Imagine that casino screwing over 5000 people for nickels and dimes, and doing that every week or two. Maybe only a few of those 5000 find their way here to Casinomeister, and PAB. Those nickels and dimes that go unrecovered sure do add up over a period of time, don't they? Nice little side profit for someone at the casino. Maybe if those three people had been allowed to post about the nickels and dimes the casino stole from them, there'd be others who would also come forward, and add their stories as well. Turns out it's not such a small issue after all. Point I'm trying to make is that the sharing of information is such a valuable tool, IMO anyway.

I strongly disagree that I have no idea if a complaint has ANY validity when it's posted on a forum. And no...I don't use a crystal ball, I use Tarot Cards.....much more reliable and they don't break when I drop them (okay, I'm being a smartass now).

If it's player fraud or a wingnut (I can usually spot the wingnuts right off), I would guess that info would get added to the thread once it's verified, either by yourself or Bryan. In the meantime, again, I stress the fact that the majority of the membership here are not that gullible to believe every word written.

I never used the phrase "right to know", I said want to know. And yes, I do want to know if complaints arise due to mistakes, honest or otherwise, or casino skullduggery. If there start being too many honest mistakes, that tells me that someone (or more than one someone) at the casino is dropping the ball. If it's skullduggery, well that speaks for itself. Either scenario, it's MY money that's helping to keep them in business if it's a place I personally play at...and I don't want them having any of it. Not until they clean up their act, period. I don't care just how I get treated, I want to know how they treat other players as well.

Ask around, I think you'll find that even the most reputable casino operators would take strong objection to that. I know from my own experience that casinos never want to be slandered, whether the claims against them are false or otherwise. This is a reputation-based business and it's all too easy for a forum wild-fire to damage or even destroy years of good, honest work. You not seeing the need for casinos to be protected from false claims is not an accurate reflection of the needs of the industry. Trust me, the casinos want a fair and level playing field just like the players do. And they have just as much right to it.

I think that good and honest operators deserve a level playing field, I'll agree with that. As for the dishonest, shady ones....all they deserve is a good, swift kick in the ass and a trip to the rogue pit. Same goes for dishonest players, fraudsters, people who chargeback, shady affiliates, etc. Casino reps have just as much right as anyone to post here. I understand they may not have the same liberties as far as information sharing, but they certainly have the right to defend themselves.

Oh really? Well tell me where you bought your crystal ball because we could use a few of them around the office. Either I'm a lot stupider than you or I have a different reality to deal with because in my experience gut-feeling on these isn't much better than a coin toss. And I say this as one of the longest serving professionals in this business, with the full help and cooperation of at least two other of the longest serving professionals in this business.

If you've got the gift you should do something with it because it would be a shame to let it go to waste .. or are we talking armchair coaching here? Sitting in the bleachers calling out the fights? I'm sorry if I sound a little skeptical but it's a lot easier to say "oh you can tell" than it is to sit with a bunch of cases in front of you, make your intuition-based calls and end up with satisfactory resolutions at the end of the day. Much, much easier.

Actually, totally sincere here....I do have amazing gut instinct. Not being a smartass at all...I haven't been wrong too many times when I've read posts on here, and made judgements on those posts/complaints. Not saying a perfect record, but pretty damn good. Unfortunately, not really a marketable asset is it?

Indeed, it could have happened. And what if it had? What possible difference would it, or should it, make? No offense but you seem to be resting an awful lot of faith on the supposition that if complaints occur then there is something to complain about. This is a momumentally false assumption.

Complaints occur for many reasons, not the least of which is group attempts to defraud or defame a casino. If this strikes you as unlikely or improbable then I'm sorry but that's because you haven't seen it, dealt with it, experienced it.

By your own admission, you stated that approximately 1/3 of player complaints result in a finding of player fraud. I trust you guys here that those figures are accurate, never said I didn't. But that's hardly a majority of complaints. It's the other 2/3 (minus the ones determined to be bogus) that bother me. It bothers me, because it's important to me how a company conducts business. I wouldn't buy a big ticket item from a company that has a history of consumer complaints, whether those complaints are all resolved satisfactorily or not. I'd rather buy from the company who gets it right the first time.

So, there we are. In conclusion I'll reiterate that this was not a rebuttal to you personally but to these types of criticisms in general. As it happens your points are fairly typical and thus made good talking points. My apologies in advance if I hurt your feelings in the pursuit of my arguments.

Regards,
Max Drayman
Casinomeister.com, Player Grievance Manager

Not a problem Max, I didn't take it personally at all...and it takes alot more than that to hurt my feelings.

I have to be honest though....from the tone, it seemed like maybe you took my post personally. And you shouldn't have, because it wasn't directed at you, nor Bryan, nor anyone. It was merely my opinion on the subject in general. I have alot of respect for Bryan, what he does, and what he's accomplished. And anyone who knows me, knows if that weren't the truth, I wouldn't be here. But I don't think that me having an opinion which may be in conflict with yours, or his, or anyone's....should be construed as confrontational, or a put-down, or anything even remotely like that. It's just an opinion, we all have them.

Bottom line...no, I don't have the answer, or any answers. Honestly, I'm not the creative thinking type. If it stays the way it is...fine. Up to you guys. If I had that big a problem with it, or your integrity, or Bryan's....I wouldn't contribute here. And with that, I will bow out gracefully.

 

[Pinababy69]

Aha! and you see how easy it is to get jerked around by newbie

Do you think a member who has invested his/her time would have jerked us around like this? The complaint section is still open - and the members who post there have earned this privilege. Most of them know the deal about posting and understand what is expected of a member.

AHA!! LOL...reminds me of that stupid Sherlock Holmes game they took away from RTG.

I saw the thread just a few minutes before I came here, and had one question I wanted to ask....which I will now go and do. I certainly didn't take his/her post at face value, not at all. I said I wanted to know more, that's all. I know CW's rep, and when it comes to a good casino, I'll always give them the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I'm a freak? And the point that Max was trying to make is that there are just too many members who "automatically" assume that because it's written on a forum....it's true?

But honestly, we can't stop players from playing at Virtual, nor affiliates from promoting them. They just keep on going strong as ever, even with all the legitimate and verified complaints that have been posted against them. So how could one post like that damage CW's rep? Especially if the truth comes out at the end? I bet you're gonna say that the good ones worry about their reputation, while the shitty ones just don't give a shit right?

No easy answers I know...and it's not too often I regret any posts, but I sort of wish I had just stayed out of this. Unless I could have offered you a viable alternative/suggestion, which I can't.

 

[maxd]

Honestly Max, there was no disrespect meant...I think I actually made a point of saying that I DO respect that this is Bryan's site....

Ok, nice to hear it. That said we all know how often we hear statements that start "of course I have great respect" and end up with "shoot the bastard and piss on the corpse". Saying "I respect" means nothing unless the rest of what you say and do supports that. I have to say that no small part of what I read in your post made me think otherwise.

See, it's those 1/3 casino fault that I want to know about.

First of all I must reiterate: 1/3 as stated here applies to PABs only. In other words of cases that go through the PAB weeding process and have had dozens of man-hours or more devoted to them then and only then do 1/3 of them turn out to involve casino fault, error, etc.

It's not the raw, unrestrained forum stuff that is 1/3, not even close. It is very important to make the distinction between a complaint issue that goes through the screening of the PAB process and one that is randomly posted on the forums. It's a HUGE difference!

And if you're really interested in the cases where the casinos were at fault then read the monthly PAB reports: every case is reported there, who was at fault and how the case was concluded. Reporting the cases once they've been properly dealt with is exactly the point here.

Agreed on the fact that there probably were a good number of hit and runs under the old format.

Thank you ... but not so hasty! This is a critical issue here, and I can tell you that "a good number" is something like 60 or 70%. In other words the majority of forum-posted issues turned out to be bogus or red-herrings or un-read forum rules or the like, in one way or another. That is way too high a crap ratio to make it a source of good information for anything, never mind a way to judge the casinos mentioned.

I admire your faith in the membership at large and their ability to reasonably evaluate cases but I'm afraid I don't share your enthusiasm. In my decade of forum management experience I have come to see that mob mentality has a lot to do with forum dynamics. Lots of folks like to get excited about lots of things most of the time. How accurately does this instantaneous behaviour reflect the truth behind the issues? Not very well IMHO and that makes forum dynamics a rather poor way to evaluate complicated issues.

Does that mean that I deny that _some_ members can reliably exercise good and careful judgment? No, of course not, but they are a small minority and are easily drowned out by the howling mob, and often are. Again, that makes the forums a poor place to evaluate these issues.

I really can't recall there being a huge uproar ever raised over anything that turned out to be a non-issue, or frivolous complaint.

Try being a forum moderator some time, I suspect your perception of the situation would change. It happens all the time, so much so that it's almost a truism of forum life. It's just the way it is.

If Casino Lady Di is petty enough to screw a player over for nickels, then I definitely don't wanna play there. You give one the impression that because it's a small amount, it's not a valid complaint.

Then I've given the wrong impression. My point, and a failed attempt at humour, was that if Lady Di was in the casino biz even she would be accused of such petty crimes as stealing nickels and dimes. If you're in the biz, you will be accused of the most outrageous things on a regular basis. Again, that's just the way it is.

As to small players, etc. Trust me, I defend the large and the small with equal vigor. In fact I often have no idea how much is involved until it comes time to verify that what was paid matches what was claimed. My interest is in the points of the case not it's value. And in case you're wondering I've resolved many more nickels cases than 'buckets of money' cases: again, the record of past PABs is your prime source of such information.

Imagine that casino screwing over 5000 people for nickels and dimes, and doing that every week or two.

Do you seriously think that that would not have crossed my mind? As I've said before, a significant part of our job is to watch out for exactly this sort of underhanded behaviour. That's what we do! Of course I have "imagined" it! I sometimes wonder if you, or the other folks out there, have any idea what it means to handle hundreds of player complaints a year, year after year. You see a lot, and are forced to imagine a lot more. The accumulative effect of nickles and dimes are not beyond our imaginings.

If it's player fraud or a wingnut (I can usually spot the wingnuts right off), I would guess that info would get added to the thread once it's verified, either by yourself or Bryan.

Again, time is money. Where's the money to track these, update them, verify claims, cross-reference documentation ... and all for a 1-in-3 legitimacy ration? You're not hearing me are you? It is too costly to spend all that time wading through what you know will mostly be garbage!

Again, I admire your assessment of your skills but I hope you'll hear me when I say that doing it recreationally and doing it full-time are two very different things. I guess that's another way of saying that there are a lot more wingnuts out there than you can imagine.

And yes, I do want to know if complaints arise due to mistakes, honest or otherwise, or casino skullduggery.

Great! Read the monthly reports because that's what they're there for. Unfiltered forum posts are not the way to make those kinds of evaluations.

By your own admission, you stated that approximately 1/3 of player complaints result in a finding of player fraud. I trust you guys here that those figures are accurate, never said I didn't. But that's hardly a majority of complaints.

Again, observe the difference between PABs -- where the 1/3 number was mentioned -- and raw Complaints forum posts where I've said that fully 2/3 of the issues end up being false, fraudulent, or woefully misguided. Very different numbers!

... it seemed like maybe you took my post personally. And you shouldn't have, because it wasn't directed at you, nor Bryan, nor anyone.

Your criticisms were fairly pointed and aimed at how we do things and why we do them. I think it's fair to conclude that you are in fact talking about me and Bryan as opposed to some generic webmasters out there in the great internet beyond who might theoretically have a website about casino stuff.

Anyway, of course you are entitled to your opinion and all the better if it differs from mine, or ours. However when you say that this and that is wrong with how we do things then you've swung from "I have an opinion" to "I have a criticism" and the will likely garner different responses, as indeed I think they were intended to.

 

[reject726]

I'm glad you appreciate my frankness.

Frankly, I think it embarrasses you. As does your attempted sarcasm.

 

[maxd]

Not that you asked but my opinion is that you've been something of a pissy troll in this discussion. In response Bryan has been pretty restrained.

 

[Antonia1953]

First of all I must reiterate: 1/3 as stated here applies to PABs only. In other words of cases that go through the PAB weeding process and have had dozens of man-hours or more devoted to them then and only then do 1/3 of them turn out to involve casino fault, error, etc.

It's not the raw, unrestrained forum stuff that is 1/3, not even close. It is very important to make the distinction between a complaint issue that goes through the screening of the PAB process and one that is randomly posted on the forums. It's a HUGE difference!

And if you're really interested in the cases where the casinos were at fault then read the monthly PAB reports: every case is reported there, who was at fault and how the case was concluded. Reporting the cases once they've been properly dealt with is exactly the point here.



Thank you ... but not so hasty! This is a critical issue here, and I can tell you that "a good number" is something like 60 or 70%. In other words the majority of forum-posted issues turned out to be bogus or red-herrings or un-read forum rules or the like, in one way or another. That is way too high a crap ratio to make it a source of good information for anything, never mind a way to judge the casinos mentioned.

Thanks for the information, maxd. The estimated 30% was way below the percentage in my head. I figured about 75% overall, which is a crippling amount of time to contribute to any non-productive and unnecessary effort.

I understand the concept of wanting to know about every complaint, whether legitimate or not, but I also recognize the loss of perception and ability to distinguish specifics when there is too much "clutter" in the mix.

Complaints made by more established members are more reliable and tend to be more reasonably presented. I wish these members were more forthcoming with the problems they experience...especially when the offending casino is one that the member is an affiliate for. How often does this happen?

What surprises me with this discussion is the lack of appreciation for the folks that are performing these functions. For instance, when I want to know how much salvage/waste material is involved with producing a certain product, I don't ask the producer of the material. I ask the technician that has been building the product on a daily basis. The producer will give me concepts and estimates. The labor that molds the material and builds the product will give me the most immediate and specific information.

Most of the members that have commented here, are people whose views I have come to respect through the history of their communications. I don't always agree with them, but their view is usually worthy of
consideration.

 

[Antonia1953]

I would like to put forth a concept to consider. A more detailed account of THE NUMBERS portion of the Pitch A Bitch report would provide the names of the casinos involved in the processing, rather than just the total numbers. Newbie issues being specifically identified as such. It would diminish the appearance of cloaking complaints, yet still limit the damages and abuses that a fraudulent complaint might inflict.

 

[maxd]

As I've indicated before, I resist posting info on cases in progress because there's no straightforward way to make it clear how those cases end up. And it isn't fair to do one without doing the other. All of this adds up to extra work and that I don't need.

If someone can suggest a straightforward, low maintenance and balanced way to include that info I'll take it into consideration. Until then we run with what we've got.

 

[Antonia1953]

I wasn't suggesting any detail other than the name of the casino. As you say, any play-by-play reporting would only create more work and would not be realistic due to the nature of the activity involved. The Pitch-a-Bitch process need not be altered in anyway-just THE NUMBERS part broken down by casino name in each category, with the ones from Newbies being flagged.

 

[Jasminebed]

It is unfortunate, but many players first make their voyage to Casinomeister because they have a complaint, legimate or otherwise.

I do understand that restricting access to the complaints forum was necessary. But the result has been that new members post their complaints elsewhere in the forum.

Perhaps a New Members Complaint Section, shielded from the search engines the way the America the Beautiful section in would enable new players to air their grievances without damaging the reputations of casinos overly so.

Not all the complaints players have about casinos can be resolved through PAB services...poor service, no response to emails, confusing terms, inordinate wait times for payments, etc.

I think Casinomeister is a great forum, and that the moderators here do a stellar job. I am proud to be a member of this community, and always glad to see new members join.

 

[bb28]

It is unfortunate, but many players first make their voyage to Casinomeister because they have a complaint, legimate or otherwise.

I do understand that restricting access to the complaints forum was necessary. But the result has been that new members post their complaints elsewhere in the forum.

Perhaps a New Members Complaint Section, shielded from the search engines the way the America the Beautiful section in would enable new players to air their grievances without damaging the reputations of casinos overly so.

Not all the complaints players have about casinos can be resolved through PAB services...poor service, no response to emails, confusing terms, inordinate wait times for payments, etc.

I think Casinomeister is a great forum, and that the moderators here do a stellar job. I am proud to be a member of this community, and always glad to see new members join.

Good Idea!

 

[reject726]

Not that you asked but my opinion is that you've been something of a pissy troll in this discussion. In response Bryan has been pretty restrained.

I have made two posts in this thread (now three) hardly trolling.

But wait, I have disagreed with you and your master. How remiss. That is of course unforgiveable. I must be pissy because I dare to speak out and say that I regard the new measure as restricting. Didnt Bryan fight for free speech?