Club World VS. CDS (Montana) resolution

towik007

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
PL
hello

For some reason I can't post on complain section, so I have to put it here. Mods - feel free to move it.

Because I do EVERYTHING I could to resolve my problem without success i decided to make it public. I will try to explain what is the problem:

I played at CWC for about year.
suddenly they closed my account and returned deposit
winnings were voided
they told me it's because they banned my country few days before
I didn't agree to that because they didn't give me any notification they were closing doors for players from my country. Also they accept my deposit and gave bonus AFTER they banned my country - so they should accept winnings as well - right?

What I do...
1) I tried to contact casino but nice lady from phone support told me that they cant paid me out because "casino manager have to protect casino profits" :rolleyes::eek:
2) I tried to contact them by email but of course they didn't replay - ever.
3) I sent PM to casino rep here but no answer
4) i submitted PaB but max said he can do nothing and that casino is right in their decision
5) finally i submitted complain in Montana (central dispute system) ... and after 2 months of waiting they tell me that they will rule ON MY FAVOR. yuppie I said ... i finally get my money..... or not!

CWC casino was proved to be wrong in my case but they still don't paid me. and what is even worse tom from this forum don't answer to my PMs where I ask him why they don't follow CDS resolution.

So now I'm asking CWC in public forum why they don't want pay me and why "best customer support" casino don't answer on emails?
 

deltoid

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Location
canada
Not cool. if they ban a country, all existing accounts should have been locked. We've seen how easy that is with RTG (cough).

The bottom line, they took your deposit and your bets, they should pay out. Would they have returned your deposit had you lost? Unlikely.

I call shenanigans!
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
That makes me think there is more to that story.
Gee - must be that female intuition. :rolleyes: :D

The crux of the matter is - the player is wrong.

He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up. All have similar email addresses, user names etc., so the casino decided to ban Poland on the 5th of September. This player had been paid for his winnings accrued from deposits prior to that.

He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here :rolleyes:

As for Montana Disputes, I'd like to see the email he is referring to.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I assume that these players from Poland all took advantage of sign-up bonuses otherwise why the hassle.
Clubworld can answer this better than I can.

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response, but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up. All have similar email addresses, user names etc., so the casino decided to ban Poland on the 5th of September. This player had been paid for his winnings accrued from deposits prior to that.

He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here :rolleyes:

As for Montana Disputes, I'd like to see the email he is referring to.

I'd like to see the email as well, even copied and pasted here.

My only question is....whether the guy is a part of a fraud ring, or just suspicious or whatever....I'm going to assume that ClubWorld locked his account when they banned Poland? Was it locked on the 5th of September, or did it remain open and was he allowed to deposit? If it was locked on the 5th, then obviously he couldn't have deposited after that date. If it wasn't locked, and he did deposit.....why was he allowed to do so?

I know that he says he was allowed to play after the date of banning....but I'm more interested in what you have to say ie. what they've shown you in reference to the date, last deposit, etc.

EDIT: Forget the Montana email...just read the above post in its entirety....duh on me.
 

deltoid

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Location
canada
Yeah I agree - if they did ban the country on the 5th, they should have locked the accounts on the 5th as well. Failing to do that would be a mistake on the casino's part, and in as much we ALL read the terms and conditions before every sign-in, the casino took the deposit and the bets (unless the player is leaving something out about that as well).
 

towik007

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
PL
He is playing from a village in Poland where for some reason a whole bunch of players are popping up.

Im glad you replied to my post Casinomeister. As I see you belive to what casino said. Thats OK. I also know about dozen other polish players which were locked before me without ANY proper information from the casino. I believe this is the case you are refering to. They come from same village as I do.

Name of this village is Warsaw - 4 milion people city. But still village for people from Club World :D :)

I will give more details in the evening.
 

towik007

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
PL
Casinomeister said:
He claims that the casino banned Poland on the 12th, but he never responded to our emails when we asked him to prove it. And now he's posting here

As far as I remember you never asked me for prove anything. I just submit PaB and Max replay quoting casino manager. CWC said that cut off date was on 5 SEP, after that my comments were ignored.

But if You want proofe here you have:

Hi Tomasz,

How are you? hope all is well.

Thank you for contacting customer support.

As far as I am aware this was on the Sep 12 2008.

If you are having any difficulties or require any assistance please do not hesitate to contact our friendly team, who is available 24/7.

Kind Regards

Natasha
Customer Support Advisor
ClubUSAcasino

This is e-mail from CWC which I recive on 14 SEP!

I also phoned cwc around 12-14 sep and girl from phone support told me that ban was introduced "couple of weeks ago"

.... isnt that strange? 3 people and 3 dates!

Casinomeister said:
@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response,

Its not true, the site is still up and running with OLD TERMS... check yourself if you dont belive me:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


check the botom of the site, there is cwc copyright so who is running this site? cwc or afflites? if afflites why cwc allow them to do so?


Casinomeister said:
but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.

i dont agree with this, I have no information of CDS changeing the rulling in my case. As I know CDS they never change theirs rulling once they make it.... never. :)

but thats not all, after cwc didnt paid me i submited complain again and CDS replay to me saying that they cant do anything more and they will forward this to RTG. Would they do this if they had changed rulling?

Pinababy69 said:
I'd like to see the email as well, even copied and pasted here.

there is nothing interesting in e-mail from CDS. they are only saying that they ruled in my favor. Im also not sure can i paste here private communication between me and the CDS (?)

Pinababy69 said:
My only question is....whether the guy is a part of a fraud ring, or just suspicious or whatever....I'm going to assume that ClubWorld locked his account when they banned Poland? Was it locked on the 5th of September, or did it remain open and was he allowed to deposit? If it was locked on the 5th, then obviously he couldn't have deposited after that date. If it wasn't locked, and he did deposit.....why was he allowed to do so?

That is my point. If I were banned on 5 SEP how could I possible be depositing few days after that? I was because my account was open.

CWC have point in their T&C - I think their forget about it:

"CWC reserves the right to change this agreement from time to time, whenever a need arises. Although we will try to inform players of any changes when they occur, "

I wasnt informed. As well as I was in situation where I could only lose money to CWC. And that is unfair IMHO ... thats why im wasteing you time :D :p

t.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Clubworld can answer this better than I can.

@this issue: the player is telling half the story. He signed up via
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
which was an affiliate site with a copied version of Club World and its old terms and conditions. (this site has been shut down BTW). When Montana originally saw the .us, they thought it was Club World thus their initial response, but when they realized their error, they changed their ruling.


A player cannot be held responsible for using an affiliate site. Certainly, if that affiliate site is set up to look like the proper casino site, then surely it is the responsibility of the casino to control their affiliates. Affiliates are supposed to submit the names of the sites they are using, and these are supposedly checked out for content that might bring the casino into disrepute.

Club World are STILL not controlling their affiliates that constantly spam ME, and the spam can be pretty realistic at times, and look EXACTLY like a genuine offer.

Today, I received a spam for Lucky Red - this is out of control!!

Whilst clever advantage players and fraudsters will take advantage of errors such as this, innocent players get caught up too.

We should end the policy of affiliates who spam "getting a good talking to", they should be treated like this PLAYER was for breaching the rules, no-nonsense confiscation of winnings. If CS did indeed give a date of the 12th, and this player won BEFORE this, then it is STILL the responsibility of the casino to TRAIN IT'S CS STAFF in the importance of giving a CORRECT answer to such a CRITICAL query. If they don't know, say so, and find out from management.

Banning a country such as Poland is not logical, UNLESS there is access to the bigger picture, so it is unreasonable to expect an individual player to know their country is banned unless they are informed, or have had their account locked to enforce the ban. Thinking an individual player should have known their country was banned presupposes guilt, in that they were acting with others in a manner that was bound to attract a ban of some sort.

Since Poland is now in the EU, it MAY even be against EU trade rules simply to outright ban the entire country. Casinos are fighting tooth & nail when it is the other way around, with some EU states banning online casinos, with casinos then suddenly remembering these EU trade rules do NOT allow individual EU states to restrict trade from another EU state.

If it just takes a "village" of players to beat the casino by taking bonuses, then there has to be something wrong with the design of the promotions. Club World bonuses are non withdrawable, so ONLY player's own deposits and winnings can be withdrawn, which limits many methods for beating bonuses.



EDIT:-

Couldn't view that fake site, but now I have:-

href="http://www.clubusacasino.com/SmartDownloadCasino.asp?casinoID=181&gAID=17803&subGid=0">DOWNLOAD NOW!</a></b>&nbsp;&nbsp;-&nbsp;&nbsp;<a id="Header1_lnkHome" class="Menu"

It's a complete fake, a landing page from SPAM quite possibly. HOWEVER, it is pretty much INDISTINGUISHABLE from the real thing until you try to navigate anywhere.

The only thing that is a dead giveaway is that everything, home, promotions, offers, etc, all simply fetch the download from the GENUINE Club World US site.

17803 ? Is that the affiliate whose account is about to get closed over this?


Given this affiliate tag (looks like one, anyway), it should be a simple matter to see if this affiliate is connected to these Warsaw players, such as being in the same area. If this is just a load of players responding to spam, and being fooled, then there should be a fairly even, even if local, distribution, and the affiliate is likely to be a spammer, squirrelled away elsewhere.
 
Last edited:

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
I was wondering if ClubWorld were going to comment on this situation? If Poland was banned on the 5th of September......can they confirm or deny that the player was able to deposit and play AFTER the 5th? If he was, and it was just casino error, then I think they need to honour his withdrawal/winnings. His account should have been locked at the time of the banning.

If his withdrawal is being denied, due to the casino claiming some sort of fraud by the player, then that is a different scenario. But going on the info so far in this thread, that doesn't seem to be the case.
 

towik007

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
PL
i didnt commit any fraud - if I would maxd or casinomeister itself would banned me long time ago when i submited PaB. Also CDS rule in my favor so i cant be 'fraudser'. At the end even casino didint close my account for 'fraud' but after they banned my country.
 

clubworld

Rogue casino operator
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Location
UK
Hello,

To clarify the dates, the ban was implemented on the 5th however Towik had a significant balance and playthrough on his account at the time from a deposit he made on the 4th.

I could see from his past activity that he would take a few days to make the playthrough with small bets and then cashout, so I left his account open so he could do so. This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.

He did manage to get another deposit on after this which, was refunded in full and his account closed. It is unfortunate that his account was not blocked immediately after paying the withdrawal, and I have apologised to him for this. And yes, I would have refunded the deposit had he lost.

Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th, and he has said that he checked the terms before making this additional deposit, however Poland was not in the excluded countries list as he was looking at a site owned and operated by an affiliate.

You will notice that if you visit the link to the terms he provided it is a very old copy of our terms page, however if you visit the root of the domain (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
) it redirects to English Harbour. We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.

Kind Regards
Tom
 

Pinababy69

RIP Lisa
Joined
Oct 15, 2004
Location
Toronto, Ontario - Canada
Hello,

To clarify the dates, the ban was implemented on the 5th however Towik had a significant balance and playthrough on his account at the time from a deposit he made on the 4th.

I could see from his past activity that he would take a few days to make the playthrough with small bets and then cashout, so I left his account open so he could do so. This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.

He did manage to get another deposit on after this which, was refunded in full and his account closed. It is unfortunate that his account was not blocked immediately after paying the withdrawal, and I have apologised to him for this. And yes, I would have refunded the deposit had he lost.

Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th, and he has said that he checked the terms before making this additional deposit, however Poland was not in the excluded countries list as he was looking at a site owned and operated by an affiliate.

You will notice that if you visit the link to the terms he provided it is a very old copy of our terms page, however if you visit the root of the domain (
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
) it redirects to English Harbour. We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.

Kind Regards
Tom

Thanks very much Tom, I, for one, appreciate the reply and the explanation. It puts things in a much clearer light, for me anyway. You could easily have locked his account on the fifth, and just returned the deposit existing on his account at that time, without allowing him to continue to play. What you did do seems a fair compromise. It is unfortunate that he managed to deposit again after that last withdrawal, but I doubt that you had anyone sitting at the "lock account" button, waiting for him to finish play and withdraw his existing balance.

The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was. It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site), and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

Thanks again Tom....and Towik, an unfortunate situation, but I'm not sure I believe that you had NO idea about Poland being banned. It sounds like you weren't sure one way or another...and thus you should have verified this fact prior to making another deposit.
 

towik007

Dormant account
Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Location
PL
clubworld said:
Towik knew that players from Poland were no longer permitted to play as we had contacted him on the 5th,

Could You tell me how did CWC contacted with information of ban? (I state that I WAS NOT contacted - that is my main concern in this case)

clubworld said:
This withdrawal (thousands of EUR) was paid in full on the 8th.
He did manage to get another deposit on after this which,

Account you are refering to is in USD, not EUR.
Withdraw was made on 8th SEP - thats corect - on 11:54 CET.
After that I recive promotion offer from Lauren offering me deposit bonuses.
I made my first deposit on 20:14 CET 8 SEP - 8 hours later. Thats indeed to short. But AFAIR my account remain open for at least another 48h. but this is not immportant here.

Pinababy69 said:
The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was.

At the time i was depositing on 8 SEP I had ABSOLUTLY no clue of CWC banning polish players. Im not an idiot to risk my money in no win situation... in order to gain what? bonuses... oh yeah i get 270 for my 600 deposit and this bonus had large WR and it was sticky so not worth the hassle.

It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site),

i didnt check anything because i was sure everything was perfectly ok. i start checking after I discover that they void my deposit.

and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

as i show before even CS didnt know what was the ban date.

---

again:
1) CWC said I was contacted - i said i wasnt ... could you prove that?
2) CWC said that I knew PL was banned - i say that im not kamikaze to deposit in casino that just banned me to not be able to withdraw winning i possible may win. im casino player but im also realistic - CWC is not the only casino in the internet :p
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks very much Tom, I, for one, appreciate the reply and the explanation. It puts things in a much clearer light, for me anyway. You could easily have locked his account on the fifth, and just returned the deposit existing on his account at that time, without allowing him to continue to play. What you did do seems a fair compromise. It is unfortunate that he managed to deposit again after that last withdrawal, but I doubt that you had anyone sitting at the "lock account" button, waiting for him to finish play and withdraw his existing balance.

The only discrepancy seems to be the player's assertion that he wasn't aware of the banning at the time it occurred....yet you say he was. It seems he was unsure enough of this to check the terms (on the wrong site), and the easiest solution to that would have been for him to check with support prior to depositing.

Thanks again Tom....and Towik, an unfortunate situation, but I'm not sure I believe that you had NO idea about Poland being banned. It sounds like you weren't sure one way or another...and thus you should have verified this fact prior to making another deposit.

He says he did, and got a reply from CS that the ban was from the 12th. This looks like another issue, one of management failure to keep CS up to date with developments.

I would have expected MORE action on this affiliate though, he should have had his affiliate account LOCKED, and revenue CONFISCATED, after all he broke so many rules (and even LAWS) by running that fake website.

We made a concerted effort to contact this affiliate and acquire control over the domain however the email address we had on file bounced and the phone number was invalid.

It took a considerable amount of sleuthing to get hold of this affilate but we have done so now and are in the process of having these pages removed.


This from Tom looks worryingly like this affiliate was to be given "a talking to", if he could be contacted, rather than having his account immediately locked. There would have been no need to establish contact to lock his affiliate account, and confiscate his revenue - access to his fake website would suffice.

This is NOT the FIRST time that there have been FAKE Club World landing pages, there is a bigger problem here.

Locking this affiliate account, and confiscating his revenue, would have made HIM seek to contact YOU to offer an explanation. Given the trouble this affiliate has caused with this copyright infringing marketing practise, he should NEVER be able to open another affiliate account, and ideally, the industry should treat rogue affiliates with the same contempt they do rogue players, after all, BOTH breeds are after YOUR MONEY, and are prepared to break the rules in it's pursuit.
 
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