[CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600

[ftg]

They changed their web site to include the terms and improve their operation after my complaint.

BUT I am only the victim of their mistakes/fault/carelessness.

 

[ftg]

I am losing confidence on online casinos.

Over the last few years, I have been quite positive on this industry. There are many rougue operations, I know but I thought as long as I avoid those rougue, there's nothing to worry about and that's why I had apparently no dispute with the casinos in the past.

But now even an accreditated casino listed here behavor so disappointedly?

Perhaps it's time to quite.......

 

[RobWin]

They changed their web site to include the terms and improve their operation after my complaint.

BUT I am only the victim of their mistakes/fault/carelessness.

Have you tried this:

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[Mousey]

This thread must have caused a pretty big stink because last week I had deposit issues.......(like so many other people are still having) and I received a free chip via chat for my troubles. The person that I was speaking to in chat did note that the ND chip had a 10x max cashout. That is the 1st time I recall ever seeing a statement to that effect in chat.

Yeah, well, they were going to give me a free chip since I couldn't get a deposit to go through, but strangely enough... I never got it. LOL I had a small cash out a couple of months ago, so didn't really expect one.

A free chip at any RTG casino has scared me to death for years because of the max cash out rule. (I just know that if I ever hit a RJ it will be when I'm playing a $5 free St. Pat's holiday chip or something. ) And most RTGs have a max cashout with ANY bonus. **shudder** You have to be so careful....

 

[RobWin]

Yeah, well, they were going to give me a free chip since I couldn't get a deposit to go through, but strangely enough... I never got it. LOL I had a small cash out a couple of months ago, so didn't really expect one.

A free chip at any RTG casino has scared me to death for years because of the max cash out rule. (I just know that if I ever hit a RJ it will be when I'm playing a $5 free St. Pat's holiday chip or something. ) And most RTGs have a max cashout with ANY bonus. **shudder** You have to be so careful....

Damn, that's just what I was thinking about yesterday Mousey as I was playing on a small free chip they had gave me. I was thinking that it would just be my damn luck to hit a $9,000.00 RJ while I was playing so I couldn't stand the thought any longer and switched over to cards....

 

[maxd]

To whom it may concern,

At the ICE conference in London this past week I had an opportunity talk, in depth, with the Clubworld people. In particular we discussed the complaint that ftg raised here on the forum.

The bottom line is that they have viewed and reviewed this player's complaint and their conclusion remains the same. Based on the information they shared with me I support their conclusion and have explained in some detail to the OP why. Since those details center on the private communications between the player and the casino, and are somewhat personal in nature, I leave it to the OP to explain their situation to the readership as they see fit.

In light of this I am closing this issue, at least insofar as the OP's complaint goes.

 

[ftg]

I am very disappointed at this.

Max, please discuss with Clubworld and confirm that
1. They change their terms on the page after my complaint
2. They forfeited my winnings of $16000.

If they admit these two and still think that they are correct and you support this, I will quite Clubworld as well as Casinomeister.

 

[elscrabinda]

I'm sure we'd appreciate it if ftg (as Max says it would be inappropriate for him to do it himself) could explain what he has been told and what their explanation for this is.

Otherwise there's a risk that people read this thread and think that what ClubWorld did was in some way justified, which based on the facts that we have (incomplete maybe) it clearly wasn't.

 

[winbig]

I'm sure we'd appreciate it if ftg (as Max says it would be inappropriate for him to do it himself) could explain what he has been told and what their explanation for this is.

Otherwise there's a risk that people read this thread and think that what ClubWorld did was in some way justified, which based on the facts that we have (incomplete maybe) it clearly wasn't.

Great point. I don't think we're hearing the whole story here, based on these new facts that Max presented.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This max cashout rule is very common with RTG casinos. This often means their bonus rules can get very complicated indeed, and are clearly not designed for the casual player, but for the more experienced ones.

The vast majority outside RTG (and Playtech), do not have nearly so many complications, and with MG (using the bonus system) and Cryptologic there should be no problems with max cashouts, and second guessing WR.
A free chip with Microgaming has clear rules under EZBonus, and no max cashout, they are not given out as freely though.

When I joined ClubWorld through GG, the terms, including the max cashout rule, were there, but it took quite some time to track them all down because of the three different locations, and the fact that each bonus code had it's own separate set of rules, which would often differ from each other. This is the RTG trick, it is designed to appeal to clever players, but hit complacent players who tend to "assume", based on the general terms, rather than read the rules for the codes each time one is taken.

ALL RTG casinos are guilty of this, not just ClubWorld. iNetBet also have separate rules for their no-deposit chips, and these include the 10x max cashout. Care should be taken to play games that are not going to deliver large wins that will only be lost due to a max cashout rule. This rules out Real Series slots, however the classic slots should be OK, as well as some of the low variance card games, or very low bets on Video Poker (because of the chance of getting a RF!). Most free chips have game exclusions, and this may leave only the classic slots available.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The appropriate page in the web archive (

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) indicates that the term has been in place at least since July of 2007:

Max cash-out of free chips is 10x the amount of the chip

That said, this group seems to have declined since the new owners took over. Is there some sort of process in place to review the status of Accredited Casinos once they change hands?

For example, if iNetBet were to sell their casino to the best friend of the cousin of the current owner of the Virtual Group, would iNetBet remain accredited before the complaints started piling up?

 

[lojo]

I suppose that if the terms were on the website (as shown by SW) when ftg redeemed the chip as a free chip, then the casino was within their rights to deny anything beyond 10x the chip. And though ftg may have had a reasonable expectation to only be bound by the readily visible terms, it is the player's responsibility to fully investigate all offers. Communication with the casino would most likely have informed him of the limiting clause.

As well, if the free chip was 'converted' from loyalty points, and loyalty points have no max cashout, then they are probably technically okay too. The key point being 'converted'. As a matter of opinion only - I do not consider that fair IF the early converted comps would have had no max cashout if played as comps/loyalty points. I consider this unfair and will be assessing any future personal recommendations or play at Clubworld. If comps have a max cashout, I will be reassessing anyway.

 

[SlotsWizard]

If comps have a max cashout, I will be reassessing anyway.

No place worth their salt should put a WR or max cashout on comps. They're difficult enough to get in the first place, unless you bet $100/spin and play thousands of spins per session.

The only truly decent slot comps these days can be found at Rival casinos.

 

[ftg]

Hi all,

I emphasize once again:

1. Clubworld changed their web page for the T&C immediately after my complaint. See below for the T&C I captured immediately after I spoke to Charlie (the Support Manager).

2. At the time I chatted to Stephen (live chat) and spoke to Charlie. They failed to point out where the 10x rule was.

3. Steve (Casino Manager) used "The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available." excuse to made a final decision to forfeite my $1600.






Re: Can you help my issue with your casino?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear xxx,

Thank you for contacting me.

I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.

The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum cashout of 10x the bonus amount for our free chips, this fact was the topic of discussion for the first thread that you posted in.

The bonus was administered according to our terms and conditions, and so you will not be receiving any further funds from play on this bonus.

Kind Regards
Steve Morgan
Casino Manager

I'm sure we'd appreciate it if ftg (as Max says it would be inappropriate for him to do it himself) could explain what he has been told and what their explanation for this is.

Otherwise there's a risk that people read this thread and think that what ClubWorld did was in some way justified, which based on the facts that we have (incomplete maybe) it clearly wasn't.

 

[ftg]

more T&C

 

[maxd]

ftg, you can post all the screencaps you like but you're still not being candid with those who have given you their time and attention in this thread.

Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff.

Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.

Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.

And last but not least, tell them what you admitted to Clubworld staff regarding your knowledge of the 10x max withdrawal and it's relevance to this particular complaint.

When you have been forthright with this information then I think the readers will have a clearer picture of what went on. Until then you're not being respectful of those who have acted in good faith to try and help you.

 

[SlotsWizard]

The link to the T&C page which applies to the non-deposit bonus you used is clearly visible in the last screenshot you posted. They did not add this page right after you submitted your withdrawal request. It is listed in the July 2007 archived snapshot of the page. The only thing it appears they did after your complaint was add the term in a second location, making it redundant.

I don't see what's so confusing about that. You didn't look in the right spot for the T&C that applied to your bonus.

 

[ftg]

max, you can post whatever you want but you also forget I have responded to you PM, especially for the point " I knew the 10x thing".

ftg, you can post all the screencaps you like but you're still not being candid with those who have given you their time and attention in this thread.

Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff.

Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.

Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.

And last but not least, tell them what you admitted to Clubworld staff regarding your knowledge of the 10x max withdrawal and it's relevance to this particular complaint.

When you have been forthright with this information then I think the readers will have a clearer picture of what went on. Until then you're not being respectful of those who have acted in good faith to try and help you.

 

[ftg]

I don't know why you conclude before you have the right information. You think I captured all screens then was unware of this point?

Please check out this first:

Link Outdated / Removed


And if you are still unhappy with that, I can give you the source code of the page. I also saved a copy of it.

BR>14. In the event of a
dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be
final.<BR><BR>Bonus terms regarding no deposit bonuses and
forum bonuses can be found by clicking <A class=Link
href="http://www.clubworldcasinos.com/Promotions.aspx">here</A><BR><BR></TD>
<TD width=50></TD></TR>
<TR height=20>

The link to the T&C page which applies to the non-deposit bonus you used is clearly visible in the last screenshot you posted. They did not add this page right after you submitted your withdrawal request. It is listed in the July 2007 archived snapshot of the page. The only thing it appears they did after your complaint was add the term in a second location, making it redundant.

I don't see what's so confusing about that. You didn't look in the right spot for the T&C that applied to your bonus.

 

[ftg]

Tell them how you behaved towards the Clubworld support staff..

I admit that I did say improper words to the support staff but that's a few days after my complaint, after they have stopped to respond.

But did they tell you that in the first day I talked to them (Stephen and Charlie) I have been very polite?

Did they tell you that I call their phone no. and talked to Charlie for 30 minutes and the conversation has been very normal?

Tell them the _real_ reasons you gave for going after Clubworld in this particular instance.

Max, you are also mixed up.

The real reason they gave me had always been the 10x thing has been "well known" and "available".

It's well known, perhaps. So we judge the terms by well-known reaons, no more black and white.

It's definitely not avalabe at the time I received the bonus and at the time I made the withdrawal request!

Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.

Does this really matter? We are talking about this particular bonus issue. If they have anything with me, they can always raise out but not at the time I made the complaint.

And last but not least, tell them what you admitted to Clubworld staff regarding your knowledge of the 10x max withdrawal and it's relevance to this particular complaint.

This one is really making me unhappy with Clubworld.
But I also explained some hours ago.

I don't know what they have given you to read. But I can provide my version.

In a chat session, which is a few days after I made the complaint to Charlie, I did write a sentence something like "I knew now that the terms is there" and then Charlie concluded that I know the terms and I had immediately clarify to him that at the time I chatted in that particular session, I knew the terms was there but I didn't know such terms when I received the bonus. Of course I knew the terms was there after they have changed the webpage.

 

[bb28]

FTG.....I understand your frustration and disappointment but you are beating a dead horse so to speak. Don't you think it would be best for you to just let it go now? There is nothing else you can do at this point.....so why not just let it rest!

 

[ftg]

Tell them track record you already had at Clubworld regarding bonuses prior to this particular bonus issue.

OK. I think I need to respond to this directly after a second thought, though I think it has nothing to do with this particular bonus issue.

I received two PM from Steve Morgan, the Casino Manager where you can find the track record underlined.


The first PM responding to my enquiry after failing to get it resolved with Charlie:

15th January 2008, 10:55 PM
Re: Can you help my issue with your casino?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear xxx,

Thank you for contacting me.

I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.

The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum cashout of 10x the bonus amount for our free chips, this fact was the topic of discussion for the first thread that you posted in.

The bonus was administered according to our terms and conditions, and so you will not be receiving any further funds from play on this bonus.

Kind Regards
Steve Morgan
Casino Manager
__________________
www.clubworldcasinos.com

This is the second PM.


17th January 2008, 10:27 PM
Re: Can you help my issue with your casino?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear xxx,

We always make every effort to look after our players and if there is anything we can do, we will do it.

I will always rule in the favour of the player where there is any doubt. The most obvious example of which was when you claimed over $600 in bonus chips by guessing the coupon codes for loyalty bonuses you were not invited to claim. I took no further action in this case.
The terms of our bonuses have remained unchanged over the last six months and the associated conditions will be enforced. You may take whatever action you feel appropriate at this stage, however my decision has been made and it is final.

My customer services team have informed me that you have been requesting further bonuses and have even admitted to understanding the terms prior to claiming the $50 in question. While you continue to dispute my decision it would be inappropriate to credit bonuses to your account.

I would be happy for you to return to Club World and resume our normal service when you accept my decision.

Kind Regards,
Steve Morgan
Casino Manager
__________________
www.clubworldcasinos.com

 

[ftg]

FTG.....I understand your frustration and disappointment but you are beating a dead horse so to speak. Don't you think it would be best for you to just let it go now? There is nothing else you can do at this point.....so why not just let it rest!

Thanks, bb28.

I rasied the issue because I thought there is a case. I am not those who take any cases up.

You know, when I first chatted to Stephen and Charlie of Clubworld, if they did point me to where they had the 10x thing, I just would say "OK. I don't know the terms, you e-mail didn't include the terms but your web site did say this 10x thing" and I would let it go.

But they changed ther terms page and then did nothing.

And now even say the track record thing.

I admit they have been overall good to me and their customer has been good until this case. But so what?

===========================


Yes. Perhaps it's time to quit online gaming as well as Casinomeister.

 

[tim5ny]

I will always rule in the favour of the player where there is any doubt. The most obvious example of which was when you claimed over $600 in bonus chips by guessing the coupon codes for loyalty bonuses you were not invited to claim. I took no further action in this case.

__________________
www.clubworldcasinos.com [/B]

Am I reading this right? This statement makes it sound like theft by the player. Why were you even allowed to have an account after doing this? I must be missing something.

 

[maxd]

max, you can post whatever you want but you also forget I have responded to you PM, especially for the point "I knew the 10x thing".

Yes, well, suffice it to say that I did not forget our PM exchange nor did I forget that what you said in the PM and what you imply here are hardly the same thing.

As to me posting "whatever you want" I think you're quite missing the point. I haven't posted anything really, just urging you to be forthright about your relationship with Clubworld before and during this fiasco.

In any case nothing has changed: as you know they've said "Case Closed". Based on my face-to-face discussions with them and a review of their chat transcripts with you I agree with them. I believe we, and they, have been fair and thorough in this case and are satisfied with our decision.