[CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600

[onemoorebaby]

I used to play at clubworld ALOT and played there yesterday for the first time since i can remember and I felt weird the whole time i played like a this doesnt feel right feeling.

Dismissing Sophie and Jason is the WORST thing they ever could have done. Everything went downhill from then.

They now have no clues at all and Tom has this I dont give a shit attitude.

they tend to change the rules now to suit them and I think its a load of crap

 

[Zoozie]

Again, again and again

Some casino managers just never learn. Whenever new owners take over casino they seem to start from scratch again and repeating the last 10 years of online-casino mistakes, instead of reading Casinomeister's page 1 on casino-management.

I believe you have documented you case pretty good and at least they are accredited. And I would be as pissed as you are.

But generally I have warned strongly (many times) about depositing with max-cashout restrictions because the effect of this is much more severe that players might image. (For free money you can not complain of course, but it still sucks and make unhappy customers).

A 95% high variance slot can easy become a 80% slot if you are using 2-5$ bet size, because of the maximum cash-out restrictions. Also the bonuses are slots only and RTG video-slots slots all has jackpots which the casino then take themself (very convinient) because of the max-cashout. I have seen RTG casinos with max-restrictions even on no-bonus deposits, making the big slot jackpots merely an illusion.

 

[Casinomeister]

Admin note

ftg - your email is bouncing. Clubworld is trying to PM you. You need to change your email address so that you can receive email notifications. Thanks!

 

[Casinomeister]

Just jumping in here real quick like.

If the casino made a mistake, I can guarantee they'll fix it. There is no need to begin a slam fest when it seems like there has been some confusion or miscommunication. Let's try to find out what went wrong before going ape-shit. Thank you.

 

[Casinomeister]

Moved posts

I've consolidated the posts that concern ftg's issue here in this thread. ftg had two threads going which is a bit messy.

@ftg - please understand that Club World's main offices are in the UK. You are making one post right after the other at 3am UK time. No one who can solve your problem is reading these at 3am. Please chill and let them fix this. Thank you.

 

[ftg]

Thanks, Bryan,

1. In fact, I did call and talk to their support manager Charlie for over 30 mins before posting the first message about this case. (which happened more than 24 hours ago)

2. I just receive a PM from Steve of ClubWorld and he replied me in the PM that:

"I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.

The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum cashout of 10x the bonus amount for our free chips, this fact was the topic of discussion for the first thread that you posted in."

3. I emphasize that
- They didn't include the terms in the offer e-mail.
- They changed their terms in their website to include max. 10x cashou.
- They are still using the reason that "The terms of all our offer are well known and made readily availabe" (sorry! I don't think so!)

 

[ftg]

Adding some info to the gameplay:

Before they announced that they cancelled the 10x max cashout (which is before July of last year), as far as I can remember, I tried once when I reached the max. cashout and I stopped there immediately.

After they announced the cancellation, this time I didn't know that there is such "well known" 10x max cashout, and I continued to bet crazily and risking the balance there.

I just want to say I am a guy that would follow and honour the game rule, and I am not taking advantage of this.

Like I said earlier, it's their fault, their mistakes and I am the player the victim of their mistakes.

 

[winbig]

Adding some info to the gameplay:

Before they announced that they cancelled the 10x max cashout (which is before July of last year), as far as I can remember, I tried once when I reached the max. cashout and I stopped there immediately.

After they announced the cancellation, this time I didn't know that there is such "well known" 10x max cashout, and I continued to bet crazily and risking the balance there.

I just want to say I am a guy that would follow and honour the game rule, and I am not taking advantage of this.

Like I said earlier, it's their fault, their mistakes and I am the player the victim of their mistakes.

ok, I'm confused now....

So you signed up and took the ND before the max cashout rule was lifted? This would mean they would have to make the term retroactive if you were to be able to cash out above the 10x rule that was in effect when you played.

If that's the case, then would you expect them to retroactively change T&C that went against the player?

Not taking any sides here, but just looking at it from another angle.

 

[ftg]

no. no. no.

I just recall how I played differently before and after Jason's (last July) announcement:

Comps no longer have a max cashout rule, this is already in effect.

Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.

and I have no idea that Jason's "bonues" only covered deposit bonuses.

 

[heatherad]

I'm not sure why you keep referring to July of 2007 when October 25, 2007 the terms where posted to clarify for another poster.


Welcome Bonuses this is the $750 3 deposit bonuses have a maximum cashout of $2000,
Normal daily email promotions that deposit coupons have no maximum cashout.
Also deposit coupons recieved from Customer Services, has no maximum cashout
Comp Points have no maximum cashout
Non deposit bonuses, Cashback bonuses, or promotions with prizes have a maximum cashout of 10x chip value.

Wagering requirements:

15x for welcome bonuses this is the deposit & Bonus together.
non deposit bonuses, have a playthrough of also 10x,

promotional emails, have a playthrough of either 10x or 15x, which they can find out from customer services, also deposit bonuses given by CS will also have a playthrough of 15 or 10x which they also can ask CS

Before playing with bonuses, its always a good idea to double check with Customer Service beforehand.

Maybe your issue at hand has nothing to do with the above stated.
Hope all gets straightened out soon though.

 

[ftg]

Thanks, heatherad.

I am NOT aware there was a thread dated "October 25, 2007"

Anyone my reference to the post of July is because this post is search result of Casinomeister.com web site when I showed to Support Manager (Charlie) over the phone that I am aware that the 10x max cashout was cancelled.

The two posts actually are not 100% irrelevant, just as a reference.

We are not coming to this forum to check terms and conditions. We are here for more important stuff...

When there is any dispute,we should referr to the official location, i.e. casino web site and the e-mail the offer was sent.

In my case, both proved to be failed and that's why I am making complaint.

Again, I can't agree to the casino Manager/support manager that since I am a regular player, I should be well informed and known of the special terms of the casino.

The terms and conditions page is actually for clarification purpose. If we can't rely on their own web site t&c, what else we can count on?

 

[heatherad]

The terms and conditions page is actually for clarification purpose. If we can't rely on their own web site t&c, what else we can count on?

After learning the hard way of using a bonus, I very rarely use any. The odd time I did, I always went to Live Support and made sure I knew the terms and conditions of the bonus at hand.
I will agree that all casino websites should be updated on a regular basis. Good luck in getting your issue resolved soon.

 

[ftg]

Club World,


You forfeited my fund because of your mistakes, not my fault.

I am not saying you are cheating me, but definitely you changed your terms and condition in your web site immediately after my complaint!

You may be getting my $1600, but you are losing me as a very good customer.

As actually I played more and more in Clubworld, in Dec 2007 alone, my deposit to YOU (Clubworld) is over $4,000

The forefeited $1,600 is just not a great deal compared to my total deposit and I can easily lose back to you but you have made a very stupid decision to make me an unhappy customer.

Do you see how stupid you are?

 

[Nifty29]

Hi ftg

Its difficult to see who is right and who is wrong here - Ive always been aware that there is a 10x cashout max on no deposit bonuses, and have been a player since they opened. Of course, if this wasnt explicitly stated on the website or in the email, then the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player IMO.

Is there any way you could post a copy of the email you received from Charlie actually awarding you the bonus? If it was given via live chat etc, do you have the transcript? One of my golden rules is never accept a bonus via anything other than email to avoid any problems when cashing out. If you arent 100% sure, then get it in writing.

It also seems that you wont be able to hang your hat on that post from July 2007, given that there is a more recent one (October 2007) stating that there is a 10x max cashout.

Having said all that, I hate these max cashout things and it also concerns me that all RTG casinos seem to have them (considering that MG and Crypto etc dont). Perhaps this says something about the financial reserve requirements of RTG licensees.

There is no need to begin a slam fest when it seems like there has been some confusion or miscommunication. Let's try to find out what went wrong before going ape-shit.

NOTE OF ADVICE: Saying something like 'Do you see how stupid you are?' is very counter-productive and is showing immense disrespect for Bryan, his forum (his 'home'), and what he tries to achieve for his members and the industry as a whole. If you visited my home and went 'apeshit' or started a 'slamfest' when I asked you not to, then I would ask you to leave.

 

[lojo]

Hope this isn't just muddle, but what I recall was that there was a discussion here and Jason clarified that Comps, as in comps, not no deposit bonuses, have no max cashout. Free money (not earned by play) always has and will have a 10x.

Just my recollection and nothing to argue about: the terms are the terms.. I'm out

 

[ftg]

Hi ftg

Its difficult to see who is right and who is wrong here - Ive always been aware that there is a 10x cashout max on no deposit bonuses, and have been a player since they opened. Of course, if this wasnt explicitly stated on the website or in the email, then the benefit of the doubt should be given to the player IMO.

Is there any way you could post a copy of the email you received from Charlie actually awarding you the bonus? If it was given via live chat etc, do you have the transcript? One of my golden rules is never accept a bonus via anything other than email to avoid any problems when cashing out. If you arent 100% sure, then get it in writing.

It also seems that you wont be able to hang your hat on that post from July 2007, given that there is a more recent one (October 2007) stating that there is a 10x max cashout.

Having said all that, I hate these max cashout things and it also concerns me that all RTG casinos seem to have them (considering that MG and Crypto etc dont). Perhaps this says something about the financial reserve requirements of RTG licensees.



NOTE OF ADVICE: Saying something like 'Do you see how stupid you are?' is very counter-productive and is showing immense disrespect for Bryan, his forum (his 'home'), and what he tries to achieve for his members and the industry as a whole. If you visited my home and went 'apeshit' or started a 'slamfest' when I asked you not to, then I would ask you to leave.

Thanks for your advice.

The e-mail is shown below:

Hi xxx,

I hope you are well and enjoying the Casino

As you will agree here at clubUSAcasino we pride ourselves on our Professional Service and treating our players in the best possible way.

In view of the Bonuses we give our players, these are probably the best and most often than any online Casino.

Usually I would not be able to offer a bonus at this time, as your account is showing over 100% of your deposits.

What I am prepared to do is to deposit $50 into your account and deduct this amount from your Loyalty Bonus for this month.

I hope this meets with your approval.

Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of any further assistance

Kind Regards



Charlie

Customer Support Manager

ClubUSAcasino

 

[winbig]

Usually I would not be able to offer a bonus at this time, as your account is showing over 100% of your deposits.

Most other RTG's wouldn't give you a penny if you tried to cashout, for the above reason alone.

 

[ftg]

And this is what I received in PM about 9 hours ago:

Dear xxx,

Thank you for contacting me.

I have reviewed this case thoroughly I have come to the conclusion that you were not treated unfairly.

The terms of all our offers are well known and are made readily available. There has always been a maximum cashout of 10x the bonus amount for our free chips, this fact was the topic of discussion for the first thread that you posted in.

The bonus was administered according to our terms and conditions, and so you will not be receiving any further funds from play on this bonus.

Kind Regards
Steve Morgan
Casino Manager
__________________
www.clubworldcasinos.com

 

[ftg]

I am adding to my previous post about my standpoint:

I believe that this is the REASONs of the forfeit of $1600:

1.They know they have such terms (and many poster here but sorry I swear that I was not aware of scuh 10x max cashout thing.)

2.They forgot to make the 10x max cashout rule available to their website (human mistake?)

3. They mistakely didn't attach the terms when they sent out the bonus e-mail to me.

And these are the two actions Clubworld taken to remedy the situation and their own mistakes:

A. Forfeited my $1,600

B. Changed the terms to include the 10x max cashout rule.

 

[vinylweatherman]

If casinos are going to try the old "it's well known...." trick it doesn't wash. If PLAYERS claim they should be allowed to do something, because it is "well known to be OK with ***** casinos", players are tomd they should not rely on forum posts or the general opinion and knowledge of players, but to read the specific terms and conditions. With this in mind, casinos have to accept that this has to work when "general knowledge" works the other way. In this case, it was "well known" that RTG casinos have max cashout rules, but it is also "well known" that RTG casinos are rogue. If we are to accept that there are exceptions to what is "well known" in the player community, then casinos have to accept that they must define everything in terms and conditions, and if a term isn't there, it doesn't apply.

We are also discussing information supplied by Jason, but he has been dismissed, so any of those threads should no longer apply, and it is the casino terms and conditions that should.
Perhaps some decisions made under the old management were reversed, but the terms and conditions were not updated to fully reflect the policy of the new management. I get the impression that progress under the new regime has been backwards, not forwards as it should be, and Club World will quite possibly sink back into obscurity as "just another RTG casino", unless action is taken to prevent this by the new management.

 

[ftg]

That they changed (added actually) the terms on their web site after my complaint fully indicates that they have something wrong there.

Clubworld stops to further discuss with me on this.

Quite appointed.....This casino is an accredicated casino listed here......

 

[lojo]

Have you pitched a bitch, made a formal complaint with CasinoMeister? If so, you should probably try to be patient. The odd part to me, is that the 'no deposit bonus' was deducted from your Loyalty account for the month. That money, if I recall, has No 10x cashout.
Clubworld has always been fair in the past. I'm not forming an opinion on what is fair in your case, but if you haven't PaB, you should, and if you have, you might want to be as patient as you can and not post more until Max has done all he can.

Good luck.

 

[ftg]

yes. I also agree that Clubworld has been fair until and except this time, when they changed their terms after my complaint and used the "well known", "should know" excuse to forfeited my $1,600.

By the way, (you should also know and it is well known that) their loyalty bonus is classified as "non-deposit bonus" --- you see, that's why where there are unclear terms, we should follow the terms and conditions of their web site.

 

[uungy]

a google cache from the 12th Jan 08 Link Removed ( Old/Invalid) clearly shows that clause is not there

 

[wobble33]

hi,

i got a free chip off these guys also a while back..i was lucky too, and cashed x10 the free chip out. i knew it was x10 the value of the free chip, so cant really say who"s to blame here...