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[CLOSED] ClubWorld: change the terms ... and forfeited $1,600

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by ftg, Jan 14, 2008.

    Jan 14, 2008
  1. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="


    I had a problem with my withdrawal at Clubworld recently about 10x Max cashout.

    They imposed 10x max cashout rule in non-deposit bonus.

    Jason left & I talked to Charlie, the Customer Support Manager just a few minutes ago.

    I promised I would give Charlie 30 minutes before giving out the details. Actually Charlie rejected to reconsider but I would just wait for 30 minutes.
     
  2. Jan 14, 2008
  3. daera

    daera Ueber Meister webmeister

    Occupation:
    The Hodgepodge
    Location:
    USA
    But what were the terms of the non-deposit bonus? Was there a max cashout on it? There is a max cashout on non-deposit bonuses, at least for some I know for sure. These terms have been on their site for awhile. Why post something without including the terms of that specific bonus or telling us what bonus it was exactly?

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  4. Jan 14, 2008
  5. heatherad

    heatherad Senior Member

    Occupation:
    counsellor
    Location:
    Canada
    ftg..
    Unless things have changed(which I've not heard), all non-deposit bonuses have a max 10x cashout. I made the post right after checking it out with Customer Support.

    I'm guessing if they are saying it is 10x that it has not changed. :)
     
  6. Jan 14, 2008
  7. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    where is the terms of 10x max cashout

    Even Charlie can't tell where I can find the terms of 10x max cashout.

    The story is as follows:
    1. 12 Jan: I e-mail the support asking for a non-deposit bonus.

    2. 13 Jan: Charlie e-mailed me personally with $50. (no terms and condition attached in the e-mail)

    3. 13 Jan: I had a decent run of BJ (as well as some slots) and ran up to $2150 and requested an cashout.

    4. 14 Jan: I chatted to Live Chat stephen asking for cashout status. He told me that there's a max. of $500 for that bonus. I asked where I can find the terms. (I really don't know. I just remember that Clubworld cancelled the 10x cashout stuff)

    5. Stephen pointed me to
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
    and said the 10x max cashout rule was there.

    He's absolutely wrong here, as I went through every single word of it and couldn't find any mentioning of 10x cashout.

    He then said it was manager decision.

    I even followed the link at the end of the page:

    Bonus terms regarding no deposit bonuses and forum bonuses can be found by clicking here.

    But it leads to You must register/login in order to see the link. only.

    6. I capture the whole page of You must register/login in order to see the link.
    in case they change it later on.

    7. I called and talked to Charlie and asked him why there is a 10x max. He pointed again to me to
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    I stated again there was no such terms there.

    He then said that I should know that there was a 10x cashout limitation since I was a regular player and this was included when the casino sent e-mail to all players to state there was no max cashout for deposit bonus. I told him what I can really remember is just the max cashout is cancelled (I am really honest, I don't know there's such 10x max cashout policy.)

    I challenged what if there's a new player joining the casino last month but there's no direct answer from him.

    He then said that earlier I received a non-deposit bonus from them by e-mail which include 10x terms. I said that I am not aware of this and this was not the bonus that we are talking about.


    8. I then search Casinomeister while talking to Charlie over the phone since I remember Clubworld did announce this in Casinomeister and I thought if it really stated that, I have nothing to say.

    I searched and found this thread. I refer this to him.

    9. Charlie commented that Jason left.

    10. I argued that there's no mention about the types of bonus


    9. I emphasized that Jason stated that:
    Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.


    ================================================

    So my arguements are:
    1. Stephen and Charlie can't point out there is a 10x cashout in You must register/login in order to see the link.

    This is the official terms and conditions and we should follow strictly there.

    2 The e-mail containing the bonus has no terms included and should refer it to the official terms and conditions but not on any earlier e-mail which may or may not be relevant to the bonus being given. (If I received several bonus with different terms and condition by email, how can I refer the issue to which e-mail?)

    3 this of course existed some time ago but this is definitely not existing terms: You must register/login in order to see the link.
    I don't think you can follow any link the web site normally to the page. I mean there may be other old terms and conditions in the web servers with no links to them. They should no longer be valid.

    4. I have no doubt that there may be 10x cashout there (and they know it internally) but it's their responsibility to let players know there's such terms attached when they give out bonus. If there's no such terms attach, player can only refer to the official terms and condition which is
    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    That's it!


    ===================================================

    Charlie decided to just send me $500, foreiting my $1600.

    I WAS UPSET and think Clubworld is UNFAIR and UNREASONABLE.
     
  8. Jan 14, 2008
  9. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    This is what Charlie sent me regarding the withdrawal

    ===============================================

    ith regards to our telephone conversation about the max cash out on a non deposit bonus I have listed the terms below for you:



    Bonus Terms:

    Please note that the maximum cash out on all Non-Deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

    All our bonuses/coupons are non cash able and the amount of the bonus/coupon will be deducted from the withdrawal.



    As for your recent withdrawal on a non max cash out



    A $50 was given with a max cash out of 10x the bonus amount.

    ========================================================

    It was quite obvious the terms was written when he wrote the e-mail by his understanding but not referring to their official t&c:

    Bonus Terms:

    Please note that the maximum cash out on all Non-Deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

    All our bonuses/coupons are non cash able and the amount of the bonus/coupon will be deducted from the withdrawal.
     
  10. Jan 14, 2008
  11. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This just shows how confusing max cashout rules are, and why most casinos just don't have them. It seems odd that MG casinos can safely run with no max cashout rules on their bonues, yet RTG have to stick rigidly to this rule or risk going bust.
    It has been made worse by the forum rep saying one thing, but casino management limiting what "no max cashout" actually means in practice.

    I dislike the rule, as it punishes those rare runs of luck, and they DO happen, yet when the run is in favour of the casino, there is no similar rule to help the player limit their total loss, such as a 100% rebate on losses beyond the highest max cashout.
    This could also distort the house edge. A player could deposit many times with these bonuses, and FINALLY hit somethig that merely wins him back his money, yet this positive run could be cut by the max cashout, and he would NOT win back his money, but only a fraction of it. In this way, the rule caps positive variance, but does nothing to limit the negative variance.

    I also found SERIOUS problems with their bonus mailers, they had a bonus for, say, 2nd Feb, but the link took you to a page giving the terms for a bonus dated 24th Jan, which had nothing to do with the offer. This happened repeatedly, and all these offers came from "Lauren", probably a made up name like "Lyris" of "Lyris Listmanager" to make it look like a real person had sent it, instead of a general player mass mailer. I ignored them all, since it was impossible to get at any terms and conditions, and eventually "Lauren" got the push, and I have received nothing since.
    I have not played there in quite a while, and have replaced them with iNetBet recently. They have a more stable bonus regime, all the terms can be seen, and max cashouts only apply to simple free chips, better still, the bonus itself is CASHABLE, proven after my recent first cashout where the amount of the bonus was NOT removed from the total. In my final session, I won back all but $100 of my total deposits, but had a max cashout and phantom bonus rule applied, I would have probably only got half my money back, not nearly all of it.
     
    2 people like this.
  12. Jan 15, 2008
  13. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    Clubworld got my $1,600 but lost me as a loyalty player foreover.

    Shame on Clubworld.
     
  14. Jan 15, 2008
  15. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    It clearly states (#14 on You must register/login in order to see the link.):

    14. The maximum cashout on all non-deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.


    The problem lies in the fact that this is a dynamically generated page (ASP), so there's no telling when/if this was updated recently.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Jan 15, 2008
  17. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    This is newly added. I have saved the screen a few hours ago.

    Here it goes!

    Like I said earlier, no one from Clubworld can point out where they could find the max cashout rule!

    The new terms #14 was newly added.

    -------------------------------------

    But this is also indicating that they don't put the rule of max cashout rule on non-deposit on their website after Jason announced here that:

    Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.
     
  18. Jan 15, 2008
  19. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    Clubworld,

    OK. The change on the page is correct and absolutely needed so that you will have ground to impose max cashout rule.

    But, how about my case?

    It's quite sure now that you don't have this rule properly stated in your website as well as the email that you sent me the offer but when I win, you just want to take advantage of the rule that you are aware of but I have no idea of ?

    Shame! Shame! Shame!

    Is this a case for PAB? I never used it. Anyone can suggest?
     
  20. Jan 15, 2008
  21. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    This NEWLY added terms is no help on the clarification of max. cashout policy of Clubworld, after a second thought. It created another confusion.

    How about Comps? In my dictionary, Comps is non-deposit in nature, but I believe they don't have max. cashout limit on Comps.

    That's why I though all bonuses are without any max. cashout limit when Jason (former rep. of Clubworld here) wrote in the forum:

    Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July. (of 2007)



    My fault or their responsibility?
     
  22. Jan 15, 2008
  23. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania

    IIRC, they came flat out and said that there's no max cashout on comps...
     
  24. Jan 15, 2008
  25. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    I know their policy now but they should state very clearly in their web site.

    Some casinos do classify Comps as non-deposit bonus and apply rules to Comps as if it is non-deposit bonus.

    Now the point is they have just newly added the term #14

    14. The maximum cashout on all non-deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

    to their terms in their web site without anywhere mentioning on Comps.

    What if one day Charlie leaves the company and then the new support manager intrepret that non-deposit bonus includes Comps? This is just the reverse of what is happening:


    Jason (the former Clubworld employee) stated openly in the forum last year

    Bonuses will not have a 10x max cashout rule starting on Tuesday 3rd July.

    and now when I cashout, another manager said that Jason left already, and the rule of bonus above doesn't apply to non-deposit bonus.

    My point is if they say Bonuses without classfying types of bonuses, the Bonueses should includes all types of bonuses.
     
  26. Jan 15, 2008
  27. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    ClubWorld: change the terms in their web site after my complaint and forfeited $1,600

    I decided to make a formal complaint here:

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/211128-post68.html


    In short,

    1. Clubworld didn't included the 10x max. cashout rule in the terms and condition but they claimed they have that for non-deposit bonus. They didn't include any terms about that in the e-mail when they sent me the bonus.

    2. Clubworld added the terms in their web site after my complaint and after they forfeited my $1600 payout. ($2150 total request, $50 bonus, $500 sent to me, $1600 forfeited.)
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Jan 15, 2008
  29. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    Finally I decided to open a new thread to make a complaint at here
     
  30. Jan 15, 2008
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom

    If they did indeed ADD this term after your complaint, and not merely made an existing, BUT VISIBLE, term more prominent, then they have broken one of the Casinomeister standards, one that holds the casino to the terms PUBLISHED AT THE TIME AN OFFER WAS TAKEN UP, and NOT what they have been changed to at a later date.
    Can you show evidence that the change happened AFTER you received the bonus, and that the term did not exist on the website, OR the Email, at the time you were made the offer.
     
    2 people like this.
  32. Jan 15, 2008
  33. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

  34. Jan 15, 2008
  35. jas2587

    jas2587 Ueber Meister

    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    FL
    any time I recieve a bonus
    this is always included in the email
    Kind Regards



    Charlie

    Customer Support Manager

    ClubUSAcasino





    Bonus Terms:

    Please note that the maximum cash out on all cash back/loyalty/free bonuses given is 10x the bonus amount.

    The maximum cashout on the Loyalty % deposit bonus is $2500.

    For full details and terms on our bonuses, please go to: You must register/login in order to see the link.



    Cindy
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Jan 15, 2008
  37. ftg

    ftg Banned User - bogus claim - violation of <a href="

    The above is the terms and conditions page that I capture about 12 hours ago.

    They did change the page after my complaint. Very efficient!
     
  38. Jan 15, 2008
  39. jas2587

    jas2587 Ueber Meister

    Occupation:
    none
    Location:
    FL
    but when I click the link from my email
    there is a difference in the wording


    13. The first three deposit bonuses claimed at Club World Casinos are subject to a maximum cash out restriction of $//2,000.

    14. The maximum cashout on all non-deposit bonuses is 10x the bonus amount.

    15. In the event of a dispute, all decisions made by the casino will be final.

    hmmm....

    Cindy
     

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