Casino Reps Please Respond Here

[4 of a kind]

Many here are aware of my will to get a response from Reps concerning Video Poker software being used. It's not fair to ask them to respond in any of the threads concerning this topic that already have gone on for pages and already consist of many other topics and assumptions.

So, let's try to keep this thread on the one topic. Here's the questions:

If video poker is actually based on a random shuffle the hands will come up with their expected probability in the long run. If the cards are being drawn based on RTP settings (pre-determined house edge percentages) like slots then the decisions are being decided by variable programming with secondary decisions to eventually equate to the pre-set RTP setting eliminating expected probabilities if the RTP setting is to low.

So which type of software is being used?

1) Pre-set house edge percentages (RTP) (slot machine)

or

2) Random Draw (expected probabilities)

 

[Rusty]

post deleted

 

[jod5413]

It would be very interesting to hear from all the different software reps, but I am not holding my breath. It is an excellent topic, but I personally feel like they won't want to answer. And, if they did, we might not like the answer, I am afraid.

Come on reps, step up to the plate here!!!!

 

[love2winalot]

Hiya: Well, there have been many other threads entitled, "Casino Rep's respond", or like that, and i can not remember anyone ever responding?

We always have, 'Plan-B".................

 

[NicolasJohnson]

The answer to your question, is both. I think this question demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of these concepts.

Random Draw = Random Number Generator = Random Results
This means that the results are random, based on set odds. For example, if you flip an evenly weight coin, it has a 50/50 chance of coming out. By flipping it you create the randomness. If you have a evenly weighed dice, it has a 1/6 chance of coming out. By throwing it you are creating randomness (assuming you aren't using dice control; whether it exist or not is not at debate here, please create a separate topic if you wish to debate dice control). Depending on the payout on of a bet and the odds of a an event happening, that is what makes a theoretical % of Return to Player, also known as RTP. So if in the coin flip game you are paid one on one, the theoretical RTP would be 100% (since there is a 50/50 chance and you are paid the same amount as you bet). If on the coin you were paid $0.95 on the dollar, then the theoretical RTP would be 95%. Theoretical RTP differs from actual RTP for the very reason that it is random. The coin flip that pays $1 for a $1 has a theoretical RTP of 100%, but if you are betting heads and heads come up only 1/4 of the time, your RTP will be 50%. Of course under this circumstance, someone else is winning with tails 3/4 of the time and therefore has an RTP of 150%, which completes the theoretical RTP of 100%.

Now that I made the differentiation between theoretical RTP and actual RTP, for the rest of the post I'm going to say RTP and by this mean theoretical RTP.

If on a dice game you are paid 6:1, then that would have a 100% theoretical RTP.

Randomness doesn't affect RTP. RTP is based on the number of potential results and the payout of a bet on those odds.

Now to bring this into cards. When you are sitting with a 2 of diamonds and a 7 of spades, and the dealer is sitting with a 4 of clubs and a 7 of clubs, there are real life odds of what will happen next if you stand or hit based on the number of decks being used and the rules of the specific blackjack game. Now online blackjack should imitate these natural odds using the casinos Random Number Generator.

Now you can ask, can a software provider NOT use the real odds in creating their software, and instead skew the real life odds to ensure a higher keep and a lower RTP to player? Yes. But that is exactly why there are reputed 3rd party companies that audit, test and certify that online gaming software is what is it supposed to be.

These are brilliant people, like the guys at wizard odds, people much smarter than myself, who I'm sure can answer better than I can. I'm simply giving it my best to answer your question.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Add "the then defunct" AA

The answer to your question, is both. I think this question demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of these concepts.

Random Draw = Random Number Generator = Random Results
This means that the results are random, based on set odds. For example, if you flip an evenly weight coin, it has a 50/50 chance of coming out. By flipping it you create the randomness. If you have a evenly weighed dice, it has a 1/6 chance of coming out. By throwing it you are creating randomness (assuming you aren't using dice control; whether it exist or not is not at debate here, please create a separate topic if you wish to debate dice control). Depending on the payout on of a bet and the odds of a an event happening, that is what makes a theoretical % of Return to Player, also known as RTP. So if in the coin flip game you are paid one on one, the theoretical RTP would be 100% (since there is a 50/50 chance and you are paid the same amount as you bet). If on the coin you were paid $0.95 on the dollar, then the theoretical RTP would be 95%. Theoretical RTP differs from actual RTP for the very reason that it is random. The coin flip that pays $1 for a $1 has a theoretical RTP of 100%, but if you are betting heads and heads come up only 1/4 of the time, your RTP will be 50%. Of course under this circumstance, someone else is winning with tails 3/4 of the time and therefore has an RTP of 150%, which completes the theoretical RTP of 100%.

Now that I made the differentiation between theoretical RTP and actual RTP, for the rest of the post I'm going to say RTP and by this mean theoretical RTP.

If on a dice game you are paid 6:1, then that would have a 100% theoretical RTP.

Randomness doesn't affect RTP. RTP is based on the number of potential results and the payout of a bet on those odds.

Now to bring this into cards. When you are sitting with a 2 of diamonds and a 7 of spades, and the dealer is sitting with a 4 of clubs and a 7 of clubs, there are real life odds of what will happen next if you stand or hit based on the number of decks being used and the rules of the specific blackjack game. Now online blackjack should imitate these natural odds using the casinos Random Number Generator.

Now you can ask, can a software provider NOT use the real odds in creating their software, and instead skew the real life odds to ensure a higher keep and a lower RTP to player? Yes.But that is exactly why there are reputed 3rd party companies that audit, test and certify that online gaming software is what is it supposed to be.

These are brilliant people, like the guys at wizard odds, people much smarter than myself, who I'm sure can answer better than I can. I'm simply giving it my best to answer your question.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

They may be brilliant but also totally unreliable which is giving them the benefit of the doubt.

See The Wiz's work on English Harbour.

Even better is Jacobson's BJ audit fiasco on 3 Dice where there has never been anything even close to full transparency to date. If so, heads would turn and that is a no-no!!

Ever heard of that reputable accounting/auditing firm Arthur Andersen?? What a crock!!.........and yes I know the then defunct AA had it's good name restored on appeal, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!

Try again pal!!

 

[funeral979]

Even better is Jacobson's BJ audit fiasco on 3 Dice where there has never been anything even close to full transparency to date. If so, heads would turn and that is a no-no!!

Did I miss something? Can you point me to a link so I can catch up?

 

[NicolasJohnson]

They may be brilliant but also totally unreliable which is giving them the benefit of the doubt. See The Wiz's work on English Harbour. Even better is Jacobson's BJ audit fiasco on 3 Dice where there has never been anything even close to full transparency to date. If so, heads would turn and that is a no-no!!

I'm sure a mistake has happened someplace somewhere. Even lunar landings don't go perfect. But that is different from what you are insinuating; which is a conspiracy. Also a small mistake may not alter the statistics (if you are sampling 20 million gaming results, one wrongly annotated result may not result in a statistically significant error).

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

If you believe that the Software providers, independent auditors, webmasters like casinomeister and everyone in this industry is conspiring to earn a little more, then I suggest you don't gamble online.

But if you truly believe that, then why do you think casinos bonus restrict you from Blackjack? I know, I know, what someone is going to answer: to keep up with the conspiracy. But don't you think that at least one operator out of thousands would go ahead and offer a 1000% cash able bonus with 5x play on blackjack and crooked software and be able to pay because of the artificial game play?

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I'm sure a mistake has happened someplace somewhere. Even lunar landings don't go perfect. But that is different from what you are insinuating; which is a conspiracy. Also a small mistake may not alter the statistics (if you are sampling 20 million gaming results, one wrongly annotated result may not result in a statistically significant error). There is no such thing as perfect, only 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% perfect.

If you believe that the Software providers, independent auditors, webmasters like casinomeister and everyone in this industry is conspiring to earn a little more, then I suggest you don't gamble.

But if you truly believe that, then why do you think casinos bonus restrict you from Blackjack? I know, I know, what someone is going to answer: to keep up with the conspiracy. But don't you think that at least one operator out of thousands would go ahead and offer a 1000% cash able bonus with 5x play on blackjack and crooked software and be able to pay because of the artificial game play?

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Thanks for the suggestion. I certainly can believe whatever I wish. Accountability, transparency, factual information, etc. are one of the primary basis(es) pal for what I believe and/or know.

The online gambling industry, nothing more than a bunch of fanantics that are an insult to the heads of the religious cults. Just a bunch of crap the masses are to believe as you just proved!!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Did I miss something? Can you point me to a link so I can catch up?

You can do a search but most is meaningless as the BJ audit SOF I was billed for and paid in full was pulled from this site 10 minutes after I posted it. There would eventually be another 4 or 5 more SOF's, LOLOLOLOLOL, with the last one (several months after the prior fiasco) being the most disturbing and unethical (in so many ways that still have never been revealed to this forum.)

 

[maxd]

... the BJ audit SOF I was billed for and paid in full was pulled from this site 10 minutes after I posted it ... the last one (several months after the prior fiasco) being the most disturbing and unethical (in so many ways that still have never been revealed to this forum.)

Not sure what you're on about Nash but could you direct us to where your posts were deleted? While you're at it perhaps you could clarify this "never been revealed to this forum" stuff.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Not sure what you're on about Nash but could you direct us to where your posts were deleted? While you're at it perhaps you could clarify this "never been revealed to this forum" stuff.

CM deleted the SOF (I was told per Eliot's request.....WTF?)........I would be more than happy to post all but as I said (to date) that was a no-no from your Boss and also Eliot requested time and time again that I not post it.......it's nasty and hundreds of pages of documents (from the chain of events over 3 to 4 months) and as mentioned I could not reveal the facts with proof per the powers that be......Give or get me permission to go head to head with all involved and it will happen!!

 

[maxd]

Give or get me permission to go head to head with all involved and it will happen!!

Please read what I posted. I said "show us where it was deleted". I did not say "please do it again". Big difference.

The conspiracy innuendo is my point here, not your "hundreds of pages of documents".

PS. I think we can read your text without the unnecessary bolding, SVP.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Please read what I posted. I said "show us where it was deleted". I did not say "please do it again". Big difference.

I know what you said, it dissappeared without a trace Einstein......I'm sure the thread is still there so like I said do a search.....I don't take orders from you, got it!

 

[maxd]

..I don't orders from you, got it!

Take a chill pill Nash. It's not about taking orders, it's about backing up your conspiracy theories with facts as opposed to skating by on vague suggestions and innuendos.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Take a chill pill Nash. It's not about taking orders, it's about backing up your conspiracy theories with facts as opposed to skating by on vague suggestions and innuendos.

Chilling, the audit fiasco was before your hire here and it has a history that involved quite a few threads. I will go out on limb and predict Bryan can you fill you in on the deletion. Maybe later I will find some links here and PM you.

 

[maxd]

Chilling

... the audit fiasco was before your hire here ... Bryan can you fill you in on the deletion.

I'm sure he could but he isn't here right now, as I'm sure you know.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are going to take (what could be seen as) a swipe at Casinomeister then you need to back it up with some facts. In the absence of facts your statements come off as empty accusations and conspiracy theories. It's not Bryan posting this stuff so it's not up to Bryan to provide the supporting material.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

I'm sure he could but he isn't here right now, as I'm sure you know.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you are going to take (what could be seen as) a swipe at Casinomeister then you need to back it up with some facts. In the absence of facts your statements come off as empty accusations and conspiracy theories. It's not Bryan posting this stuff so it's not up to Bryan to provide the supporting material.

Oh the irony!!..........There is not a statement I can not back up. See prior posts but it will not happen at command, lol!

Warm up with this though!! BTW, the audit fiasco would get worse after this post.

https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...t-i-think-even-3dice-will-vouch-for-me.21921/

 

[Pinababy69]

Just to show that Nash is not losing his mind....his audit was definitely deleted. I remember it well...it was at the request of Eliot Jacobsen, to the best of my recollection. Post #63 and #64 here:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/3dice-support-issue.21587/

EDIT: You owe me Nash for digging that up, it took a while.

Not trying to get in the middle of anything, but I did remember what Nash was speaking of, and thought it could settle this dispute, which I see headed down a not so nice route. Just trying to help.

 

[maxd]

....There is not a statement I can not back up. See prior posts but it will not happen at command, lol!

Jeez louise! I didn't say you __couldn't__ back your statements up, I said that if you are going to make out-of-context statements like that you __should__ back them up. Your prior posts provide no such back-up material, hence my request.

As to whether you will or will not take "orders" or "commands" I have no idea what you're on about. I'm telling you what is expected of you if you with to post stuff like that. If you don't want to comply then I'm asking you nicely to either keep it to yourself or take it elsewhere. It's not an order, it's a request to respect the forums and follow the rules.

... the audit fiasco would get worse after this post.

Sorry, that post tells me nothing. The guys says you hired him, he had a rough patch and dropped the ball, he thinks 3Dice needs an audit and he's trying to get his life together. That has zero to do with you saying that your posts were suppressed and "the full story was never told here", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Take it how you like but the bottom line is this: provide reverences if you are going to make such out-of-context claims -- if for no other reason than we can see what really happened -- or keep your accusations to yourself.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Jeez louise! I didn't say you __couldn't__ back your statements up, I said that if you are going to make out-of-context statements like that you __should__ back them up. Your prior posts provide no such back-up material, hence my request.

As to whether you will or will not take "orders" or "commands" I have no idea what you're on about. I'm telling you what is expected of you if you with to post stuff like that. If you don't want to comply then I'm asking you nicely to either keep it to yourself. It's not an order, it's a request to respect the forums and follow the rules. Otherwise take it elsewhere.



Sorry, that post tells me nothing. The guys says you hired him, he had a rough patch and dropped the ball, he thinks 3Dice needs an audit and he's trying to get his life together. That has zero to do with you saying that your posts were suppressed and "the full story was never told here", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Take it how you like but the bottom line is this: provide reverences if you are going to make such out-of-context claims -- if for no other reason than we can see what really happened -- or keep your accusations to yourself.

Dude you are a tool............now delete my membership........another member who has had enough of you, yep just you!

 

[maxd]

Just to show that Nash is not losing his mind....his audit was definitely deleted.

Thank you Pina, and yes, apparently it was. And the reasons (as made obvious in posts there)?

(1) Apparently Elliot, the guy who wrote it, requested that it be deleted.

(2) In Bryan's words:

I think it may be a little premature to post Dr. J's findings until a thorough audit is 100% complete. I don't want this to be misconstrued or misinterpreted as faulty BJ software thus unfairly damaging a company.

Eliot stated "I have no reason to doubt the fairness of the software at 3Dice.com". Let's keep it at that for now.

Hardly the suppression of incendiary material that Nash implied above. At that's exactly my point: context is critical and the onus was on Nash to provide it if he's going to dredge up stuff that is almost three years old. Failure to do so is irresponsible at best. At worst it is being a troll and that get's us into Forum Rules territory.

...now delete my membership.....

I'll forward your request to Bryan.

 

[maphesto]

On topic first:

The answer to your question, is both. I think this question demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of these concepts.

I think you misunderstood it, you have below this perfectly described 4oaks example 1.

Now online blackjack should imitate these natural odds using the casinos Random Number Generator.

First of all, 4 of a kind asked for Video Poker, you haven't mentioned this.

To imitate natural odds, you definately use an RTP based software.
4oaks other example, Random Draw, means that your software actually have one virtual deck in Video Poker and deals from that.

Now you can ask, can a software provider NOT use the real odds in creating their software, and instead skew the real life odds to ensure a higher keep and a lower RTP to player?

This is not the issue, even if the RTP is set to 99.99% it's not the Random Draw method.

Off topic/derail

At that's exactly my point: context is critical and the onus was on Nash to provide it if he's going to dredge up stuff that is almost three years old.

In this issue it doesn't matter if the stuff was three years old. Or 4 years old if we instead use the "Wiz work on English Harbour".

When I read 4 of a kinds post I almost knew that some casino rep would mention that the games are random and that their games are tested and proved to be random. The reps are used to defend their casino when many losing players screams that the games are rigged or the RTP is below 80%.

Nash answered this:

But that is exactly why there are reputed 3rd party companies that audit, test and certify that online gaming software is what is it supposed to be.

These are brilliant people, like the guys at wizard odds, people much smarter than myself, who I'm sure can answer better than I can. I'm simply giving it my best to answer your question.

If you believe that the Software providers, independent auditors, webmasters like casinomeister and everyone in this industry is conspiring to earn a little more, then I suggest you don't gamble online.

And with this in mind I can't see that those three years matter. Nicolas thinks that independent auditors are trustworthy, Nash feels different.

Don't forget that Nash already has published the story/proof/whatever and it was deleted!

When I read the two linked threads I get the feeling that Dr J. uses a more advanced method than others to test BJ. I might be wrong, but this is what I read from this:

For example, in blackjack, from what I understand PWC samples subsets of cards of various sizes and makes sure that no matter what subset they choose, those cards are equally distributed between the 52 cards. They sample subsets of dealer cards, player cards, and other subsets, and in every case they verify the normal distribution of the cards.

That is not how I proceed. I have 10 tests that I have designed, plus I also do whatever tests a particular client requests. For example, I verify distribution of every possible 2 card starting hand. I look at blackjacks and aces. I consider draw cards to hard totals for the player, draw cards for double downs. I have many more tests. This is much more detailed (from what I understand) than the PWC proceedure. It is not possible to say that my methods are any better. Both PWC and myself are just looking for some indication that something should be looked at in more detail.

This can indicate that Nash himself had found something strange that some independent auditors would have missed and that Dr J. also found this strange. Maybe we will never know?

Nash!

You are so stupid! If you are planning to end your membership, at least be such a PITA that you will be banned instead..

Stay!

 

[4 of a kind]

Other then Nicolus's response I have received a PM from Louise directing me where to find this answer (which of course I will pursue) and one answer surprisingly from SEGA.

Sega said their games run from RTP settings and are set at 97% with a 3% house edge. I only would assume that this could be adjusted since that is a discussion for another topic.



Nicolus,

Your theory's and examples defining random are much appreciated but don't respond to the direct question posed here. So to make the question much easier;

Can your casino (RTG software) regardless if it could be done at the back-end or needed to be requested and approved via RTG provider; change the HOUSE EDGE PERCENTAGE Setting on Video Poker?

 

[maxd]

And with this in mind I can't see that those three years matter. ... Don't forget that Nash already has published the story/proof/whatever and it was deleted!

At no point did I say that the old post, deleted or otherwise did not matter.

What I did say is that if Nash is going to dig up three-year-old posts, and make accusations and innuendos about it being deleted and "the full story" not being told here as if it was suppressed or somesuch, then the least he can do is provide a reference to whatever it was he was talking about.

How many people reading this thread would have had a clue what he was referring to? Not a lot I reckon, me included. Asking for a reference is not unreasonable, especially not in this case.

Whatever else this was it certainly was no cause for him to start calling me fool and a "tool" and openly stating that he was happily ignoring what I said. I asked him to provide references to back up his statements, he responds by being rude and abusive. And then he takes that as his queue to quit the forums. I don't think I'm going out on a limb to say that a reality check is in order here.

That said I realize this has become one big fat derail so I'm sure everyone welcomes a return to the topic at hand.

 

[maphesto]

Sega said their games run from RTP settings and are set at 97% with a 3% house edge. I only would assume that this could be adjusted since that is a discussion for another topic.

Very interesting, especially since I already have thought this about Playtech Roulette.

This also puts things in perspective for all those who think that they have same chance to hit a straight flush online (at Playtech casinos) as they have in real live games.

The game is random, but still not randomly drawn cards from a 52 card deck.

I don't think that they can adjust it, I think they use that kind of stabilizer I am talking about in this thread:

https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/microgamings-idea-of-random.39789/

They are stabilizing the RTP to 97%. That's my guess at least.

OT:

What I did say is that if Nash is going to dig up three-year-old posts, and make accusations and innuendos about it being deleted and "the full story" not being told here as it is was suppressed or somesuch, then the least he can do is provide a reference to whatever it was he was talking about.

I probably misread your post, I thought at the time I read it that you bolded three years just to mark that this was old stuff not related to the story.

I now realize that you bolded the three years to mark that readers can't remember storys that old.

I hope that Bryan or Nash could post that deleted one later. I want to read it.

 

[LinkinFart]

I`ve been playing Video poker since I was 14 years old in local pubs. My country has just declared independence and there was very little law if any related to gambling so ALL of those VPs were managed and owned by gangsters, legally, no state control whatsoever. Once or twice a week a guy would come to take the money earned from pub owner.

In more than one occassion we were there when that guy came. He had a key for a machine with which he could open settings for that machine, we saw these "Settings" for VP RTP and other RTP adjustments. He would then set RTP to some level, usually it was between 70%-80%, but he did put it few times to 90% and couple times more to 60%.

So, if online VPs use the same method to determine winner or loser as those used in BM casinos and I dont see a reason why they shouldnt, yes they do have their RTP set to some percentage and there is nothing random about it. Those are slots with cards instead of symbols IMO. I didnt stop playing it even though I knew it was "fixed" game. Stopped after 12 years of almost everyday play, just lost interest one day. Rough calculation of my RTP in 12 years playing, yup its around 80% overall .

 

[Nate]

Sega said their games run from RTP settings and are set at 97% with a 3% house edge. I only would assume that this could be adjusted since that is a discussion for another topic.

The RTP (if true at 97%) is within line for a B&M on a $1 machine. As mentioned before in a previous thread, the online VP should be no different from a B&M Casino. They are all RTP Based... Roulette and BJ are exactly the same.

What is of interest though is: Does the RTP change with Bigger Bet sizes? - According to a post from a Rep in another thread - NO.

In B&M's it is FACT that higher denominations have higher RTP's for VP. In some instances the RTP can be as high as 99%+... If the RTP remains the same irrelevant of bet size, your chances of coming out ahead on bigger bets are HIGHER at B&M's ...

Just my 4 cents

Nate

 

[maxd]

I now realize that you bolded the three years to mark that readers can't remember storys that old.

Yup, very much three years as in "we need some references and context here", not at all three years as in "we don't talk about such things".

 

[love2winalot]

now delete my membership........

Will you actually stay away this time? How many times do you have to get banned/suspended/ask to get kicked out? And this is a Fact, just as you had requested....

This is why Casino Reps do not respond. Why should they, when people like Nash just call all of them Liars? Why would anyone want to be around Cheats and Liars? If you do not like On Line Gambling, and do not trust the casino's, Fine, "Don't Gamble". It is apparent that you do not anyway.

We are asking for Casino Reps to chime in, on how actual end results in VP, and maybe other games are selected? Any other Reps, please also post, and just Ignore the Negative......Thanks.

 

[Nifty29]

I know that when an RTG casino wants to change its RTP on VP, the actual payouts for each hand are adjusted - which would seem to suggest that the cards themselves are completely random (otherwise why bother changing anything?)

It may well be that other operators can change the RTP without anything obviously changed in what the player sees. It is also interesting that my VP results for RTG are, and always have been, better than any other software..? The worst results Ive had are from 3Dice - I get creamed there almost every time and just avoid the VP there now. Ive never had a RF there since they opened, compared with several at MG and RTG.

Interesting topic this....

 

[rouletteguy]

So sega casino responded and said games are set at 97% RTP did anyone ask them to confirm if this was table games as well? or just slots?

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Yup, very much three years as in "we need some references and context here", not at all three years as in "we don't talk about such things".

Yup, what is the "search" function for as I mentioned in a reply to Funeral. He seemed to locate the subject threads without a problem.

Please define "context" for me or give me a list of questions pursuant to what you are not satisfied with per my so-called innuendos (sp) and now I will break forum rules (hell KK is allowed to-another innuendo-uh oh) and be fully transparent. What a concept!!

To avoid further derailing this thread, a new thread would be appropriate imo. I await your start of the thread.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

On topic first:



I think you misunderstood it, you have below this perfectly described 4oaks example 1.



First of all, 4 of a kind asked for Video Poker, you haven't mentioned this.

What I said applies to Video Poker.

To imitate natural odds, you definately use an RTP based software.
4oaks other example, Random Draw, means that your software actually have one virtual deck in Video Poker and deals from that.

I've answered this question yet you guys don't want to accept it. It is fundamentally flawed to ask if software is RTP or RNG (what you call random draw) based. The reason, is it is both. It is kinda like asking if a motor's power is based on horse power or torque. Well, a motor has both; each having their own meening.

Please re-read my post for definitions of the terms being used.

Just try and think of it in terms of real life, shuffling the cards creates Randomness (or throwing the dice or tosing a coin), each move when betting has an expected RTP which is based on the odds of an event happening and the payout for those odds. Online, randomness is created by an RNG or as you call it, Random Draw Software, and just like in real life, each move has an expected RTP. Can casinos modify it to unnatural settings? Sure. But that is why there are 3rd party auditing and system tests to ensure the software providers are honest.

If you believe there in this huge conspiracy Nash is talking about, then I suggest you don't gamble online. But if you do, try and answer the question in my previous post of this thread:

But if you truly believe that, then why do you think casinos bonus restrict you from Blackjack/Video poker? I know, I know, what someone is going to answer: to keep up with the conspiracy. But don't you think that at least one operator out of thousands would go ahead and offer a 1000% cash able bonus with 5x play on blackjack and crooked software and be able to pay because of the artificial game play?

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[The Dude]

Admin note - I'm on holiday

Just a quick admin note that I'm on holiday, and I plan to keep it that way.

@Nash - if you have an issue with this site (or me for that matter) I'm requesting that you keep it to yourself until I return next Monday. Max has diddly squat to do with your 3Dice issue from three years ago and I'd appreciate it if you'd let him focus on his job (the PABs) and not your conspiracy alarmist concerns. Thanks!

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Sorry, that post tells me nothing. The guys says you hired him, he had a rough patch and dropped the ball, he thinks 3Dice needs an audit and he's trying to get his life together. That has zero to do with you saying that your posts were suppressed and "the full story was never told here", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Take it how you like but the bottom line is this: provide reverences if you are going to make such out-of-context claims -- if for no other reason than we can see what really happened -- or keep your accusations to yourself.

Perhaps you missed this at https://www.casinomeister.com/forum...t-i-think-even-3dice-will-vouch-for-me.21921/

Essentially all the versions of my audits said the same things, with small explanations about how I arrived at numbers (with the exception of fixing the aces in the first version), and then I abrubtly changed course, and just said something like "The game is fair, but a full audit should be conducted of all the games at 3-dice."

Just standard audit operating procedure, not, with all of the above (including multiple on-going SOF versions) occurring after I had received an invoice from Eliot which included the words "all work complete". I also then remitted payment in full before any of the above as well as before the deletion by CM and his odd statements thereafter. I know what was going on and so does Eliot. I will review my PM's and e-mails accordingly.

 

[NASHVEGAS]

Just a quick admin note that I'm on holiday, and I plan to keep it that way.

@Nash - if you have an issue with this site (or me for that matter) I'm requesting that you keep it to yourself until I return next Monday. Max has diddly squat to do with your 3Dice issue from three years ago and I'd appreciate it if you'd let him focus on his job (the PABs) and not your conspiracy alarmist concerns. Thanks!

Missed this as we were posting at the same time. My issues are not with you but I have issues.

I will honor your request!

 

[Rusty]

What I said applies to Video Poker.



I've answered this question yet you guys don't want to accept it. It is fundamentally flawed to ask if software is RTP or RNG (what you call random draw) based. The reason, is it is both. It is kinda like asking if a motor's power is based on horse power or torque. Well, a motor has both; each having their own meening.

Please re-read my post for definitions of the terms being used.

Just try and think of it in terms of real life, shuffling the cards creates Randomness (or throwing the dice or tosing a coin), each move when betting has an expected RTP which is based on the odds of an event happening and the payout for those odds. Online, randomness is created by an RNG or as you call it, Random Draw Software, and just like in real life, each move has an expected RTP. Can casinos modify it to unnatural settings? Sure. But that is why there are 3rd party auditing and system tests to ensure the software providers are honest.

If you believe there in this huge conspiracy Nash is talking about, then I suggest you don't gamble online. But if you do, try and answer the question in my previous post of this thread:



Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

I think it is pretty obvious what they want to know.
Can the RTP be changed without a change to the paytable?

 

[NicolasJohnson]

...Can casinos modify it to unnatural settings? Sure...

I think it is pretty obvious what they want to know.
Can the RTP be changed without a change to the paytable?

Sorry I wasn't more clear. To answer your question; in theory yes, some crooked software provider could do this by altering the odds of each play. But that is why we have testing and auditing done by 3rd parties.

There are evil software providers:
https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

You can see RTG, Micro, Rival, etc aren't on that list. The thing is, developing a casino software is something that requires a budget anywhere from high 7 digits to lower 8 digits. It takes YEARS before a casino software provides the owners with an ROI. This makes it so that software developers are GENERALLY in it for the long run, and as such, wouldn't allow their licensees to hurt their reputation. Remember, in most cases the software providers earn whether the casino does or doesn't make money.

It also doesn't make sense to believe respected software companies would do this. After all, if this conspiracy going on here were true; that all software providers, independent auditors and technical standard providers, all webmasters, promotions managers, casino managers, etc were in on this, then one casino or another would feel the competitive pressure and put out a 1000% bonus with 10x play on blackjack. But since any casino that puts out such a bonus would go broke (or are rogue and simply won't pay) since the software is fundamentally honest, then that should tell you something.

Also, if we were all in on this together, then someone would step forward no? I mean, we are a lot of people in this industry from all over the world and many with no direct ties to one another, many competing very heavily with each other (i.e. if RTG did it, Rival would point it out, if Rival did it, someone else would point it out, if one casino would do it, another would point it out, etc).

But then, if you really wanted to go off on conspiracies you could say Vegas casinos don't shuffle the cards, roulette wheels have stop buttons, dice are weighed in the casino's favor, etc. If you are going to go off into deep, totally unproven, baseless conspiracies, why stop online?

And if you believe in such conspiracies, then there is a simple solution: Don't gamble or don't gamble online, depending on what level of conspiracy you believe in.

Any business transaction implies a certain level of trust, whether it is buying a car, booking a flight, buying a 6 pack at the supermarket or gambling online or offline, there is trust involved. You trust providers and authorities to ensure you get a quality service and product. Without trust, business couldn't exist. Now does that mean that the trust is blind? Of course not, but at some level you must trust others and that is why reputation is important. No one can understand every last bit of modern life (i.e. how the aviation standards are ensured, how food standards, how cars are built, defects detected, etc, etc etc)

Hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[love2winalot]

now delete my membership........

But NashVegas is willing to quit his membership here. Does this not mean you, and the other casino reps are just dirty rotten liars? Is not the 3rd party doing the audit, just a hooker on the street corner you paid $25 to?

Are not Most/All the winning screenshots just post made by Shills from your casino's? Are not my Prior post I made that I won money just Troll post?

insert: "by the way, the Troll reward check you send me bounced"......

Nicolas Johnson, "i am done being sarcastic now", why is it, do you think, that you are the only Casino Rep. to actually respond here so far?

 

[rouletteguy]

What I said applies to Video Poker.



I've answered this question yet you guys don't want to accept it. It is fundamentally flawed to ask if software is RTP or RNG (what you call random draw) based. The reason, is it is both.
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

No it is not both If I am random player and start your roulette game am I on average expected to lose 3% of my money or not? (not including standard house edge)

Will the RNG intentionally produce a losing outcome in order to keep my win/loss in check? But balance it out by awarding another player winnings.?

Pretty simple question and it does not require a page long answer.

I appreciate your response and don't appreciate those who attacked you because it is exactly the reason you guy's don't respond. This is the question no one is forth coming with.

Will your table games screw me over and keep me from winning too much?

 

[Rusty]

Sorry I wasn't more clear. To answer your question; in theory yes, some crooked software provider could do this by altering the odds of each play. But that is why we have testing and auditing done by 3rd parties.

There are evil software providers:
https://www.casinomeister.com/rogue-casinos/

You can see RTG, Micro, Rival, etc aren't on that list. The thing is, developing a casino software is something that requires a budget anywhere from high 7 digits to lower 8 digits. It takes YEARS before a casino software provides the owners with an ROI. This makes it so that software developers are GENERALLY in it for the long run, and as such, wouldn't allow their licensees to hurt their reputation. Remember, in most cases the software providers earn whether the casino does or doesn't make money.

It also doesn't make sense to believe respected software companies would do this. After all, if this conspiracy going on here were true; that all software providers, independent auditors and technical standard providers, all webmasters, promotions managers, casino managers, etc were in on this, then one casino or another would feel the competitive pressure and put out a 1000% bonus with 10x play on blackjack. But since any casino that puts out such a bonus would go broke (or are rogue and simply won't pay) since the software is fundamentally honest, then that should tell you something.

Also, if we were all in on this together, then someone would step forward no? I mean, we are a lot of people in this industry from all over the world and many with no direct ties to one another, many competing very heavily with each other (i.e. if RTG did it, Rival would point it out, if Rival did it, someone else would point it out, if one casino would do it, another would point it out, etc).

But then, if you really wanted to go off on conspiracies you could say Vegas casinos don't shuffle the cards, roulette wheels have stop buttons, dice are weighed in the casino's favor, etc. If you are going to go off into deep, totally unproven, baseless conspiracies, why stop online?

And if you believe in such conspiracies, then there is a simple solution: Don't gamble or don't gamble online, depending on what level of conspiracy you believe in.

Any business transaction implies a certain level of trust, whether it is buying a car, booking a flight, buying a 6 pack at the supermarket or gambling online or offline, there is trust involved. You trust providers and authorities to ensure you get a quality service and product. Without trust, business couldn't exist. Now does that mean that the trust is blind? Of course not, but at some level you must trust others and that is why reputation is important. No one can understand every last bit of modern life (i.e. how the aviation standards are ensured, how food standards, how cars are built, defects detected, etc, etc etc)

Hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

I stopped reading when you started rambling about conspiracies.
Is it a conspiracy that different Casinos have different RTP settings for their games?
Let's stay real here.

So you are saying that the probability of outcome of Video poker is exactly the same as its real life counter part and not only do these probabilities never change the RTP is also never changed?

 

[NicolasJohnson]

No it is not both If I am random player and start your roulette game am I on average expected to lose 3% of my money or not? (not including standard house edge)

Will the RNG intentionally produce a losing outcome in order to keep my win/loss in check? But balance it out by awarding another player winnings.?

Pretty simple question and it does not require a page long answer.

I appreciate your response and don't appreciate those who attacked you because it is exactly the reason you guy's don't respond. This is the question no one is forth coming with.

Will your table games screw me over and keep me from winning too much?

No, our table games won't screw you over and keep you from winning too much. In fact, I've seen players take $20 and turn 'em into $50k, other times I've seen players deposit and play thousands and hardly get any play. That is what randomness is all about.

Think of it this way: there are 38 numbers in a roulette weal. Each number will come up an expected number of times (1 in 38). This will remain the same online. Now, will each number come up 1 in 38 times in any given data set; no. That is why it is THEORETICAL RTP. In gambling, when it is random, and by definition gambling has to be random, then RTP is theoretical. Nothing in our software is going to say, if you hit 32 five times in a row, then another number will come up. That WON'T happen. If you hit 32 five times in a row, there are the same odds of 1 in 38 each time you bet, no matter which number it is. Each roulette spin is independent, that is the reason martingale systems are fundamentally flawed.

Just like with flipping a coin, it is expected that heads and tails come up 50/50, but if you flip it, you might get 20 heads and 3 tails. Because randomness means that each time it is flipped, there are the same 50/50 odds at play. The coin, just like the roulette wheel, doesn't 'keep track' of whether you have won or lost. In fact casinos some games during some times players win more then they loose. This happens in land based casino as well as online. That is what is called variance, and it is the inevitable consequence of randomness. Why some games have more variance than others? The number of variables and prizes is greatly influential. To give an example, flipping a coin, which has a binary result, will have less variance than say throwing a dice (which has 6 possible combination). Try it and you will see. Flip a coin 20 times, and throw a dice 20 times. You are most likely going to get a greater variance with the dice. To find out more about variance, I suggest you check these articles:

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If you are saying that our casino software CAN'T have a RTP and an RNG, then you fundamentally don't understand these concepts. I'd suggest you read my posts again where I explain them.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[NicolasJohnson]

I stopped reading when you started rambling about conspiracies.
Is it a conspiracy that different Casinos have different RTP settings for their games?
Let's stay real here.

So you are saying that the probability of outcome of Video poker is exactly the same as its real life counter part and not only do these probabilities never change the RTP is also never changed?

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[takethemoney]

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Nicolas,
I have asked this to other casino managers and never gotten an answer, but maybe they just didn't see it. Does the game server reside on the casino operator's property, or with RTG themselves. I think you can see where I am going with this....
Who ensures the honesty and that some underground pro has not been paid to gaff the program? With hot swappable server drives or Eprom chips that can be switched back if an operator knows there is an audit coming. These are real possibibilities, not that I think your casino would do this, but you have to admit it's possible.

 

[4 of a kind]

So sega casino responded and said games are set at 97% RTP did anyone ask them to confirm if this was table games as well? or just slots?

He made a blanket statement with this exact quote: "Now to answer you query, our machines are set to 97% RTP with the house edge of 3%." I would assume that means all machines and Video Poker in this case being classified a slot machine???

Since this thread went into a tailspin rather quickly 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Although the 3Dice reading was interesting, maybe the question isn't as clear as we think it is since like Nicolus's responses it too appears evasive and topic changing. So I think the question should now be re-worded like I posted earlier to Nicolus.

Can your casino regardless if it could be done at the back-end or needed to be requested and approved via your software provider; change the HOUSE EDGE PERCENTAGE Setting on Video Poker?

 

[Rusty]

As I said, I'm sure there are bad software providers out there; hence the section here at casinomeister of evil software providers.

But I'm quite sure honest software providers that have been audited, tried and tested by people much smarter than me work as they should; with the same real life counter part randomness, odds, payouts and therefrom RTP. It doesn't make sense for it to work otherwise.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

So therefore the RTP of a video slot with the paytable the same will be exactly the same whether it be MGS, RTG, Playtech Rival or other software provider?
And if two video poker games have the same paytable yet state different RTP at least one of them must be rigged?

 

[maxd]

... 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Ask 3Dice if it's okay to post it. They'll almost certainly say "yes" and then there's no problem.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

Nicolas,
I have asked this to other casino managers and never gotten an answer, but maybe they just didn't see it. Does the game server reside on the casino operator's property, or with RTG themselves. I think you can see where I am going with this....
Who ensures the honesty and that some underground pro has not been paid to gaff the program? With hot swappable server drives or Eprom chips that can be switched back if an operator knows there is an audit coming. These are real possibibilities, not that I think your casino would do this, but you have to admit it's possible.

Whether the software is on their servers or ours, doesn't matter much from my understanding. The thing is, the casino licensees don't have the source code to change things. If casinos had all the source code, they could simply stop working with the software providers.

He made a blanket statement with this exact quote: "Now to answer you query, our machines are set to 97% RTP with the house edge of 3%." I would assume that means all machines and Video Poker in this case being classified a slot machine???

Since this thread went into a tailspin rather quickly 3Dice elected to answer my question via PM and not participate in this thread. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to show this response and then be charged with exposing private mail. Can a mod please let me know the ruling here...

Although the 3Dice reading was interesting, maybe the question isn't as clear as we think it is since like Nicolus's responses it too appears evasive and topic changing. So I think the question should now be re-worded like I posted earlier to Nicolus.

Can your casino regardless if it could be done at the back-end or needed to be requested and approved via your software provider; change the HOUSE EDGE PERCENTAGE Setting on Video Poker?

As far as I'm concerned: No, not with RTG or Rival. I can't guarantee that though, I'm not a casino owner, I don't have master access. But in general, if that would be the case, I'd more than likely know about it.

So therefore the RTP of a video slot with the paytable the same will be exactly the same whether it be MGS, RTG, Playtech Rival or other software provider?
And if two video poker games have the same paytable yet state different RTP at least one of them must be rigged?

Well, assuming they didn't use different rules, different number of decks, etc, then from my understanding you would be right. But again, keep in mind this is my understanding.

I'm not an expert on the topic. This is getting awfully technical, and I'd like to have more answers, but I think it would be good to invite some casino odds expert like Wizard Odds people to really help you all get down to the bottom of this. :notworthy

I can explain the concepts of RTP and RNG, but the level of technical understanding that we are headed into is starting to go over my head to be honest, sorry.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[rouletteguy]

No, our table games won't screw you over and keep you from winning too much. In fact, I've seen players take $20 and turn 'em into $50k, other times I've seen players deposit and play thousands and hardly get any play. That is what randomness is all about.

Think of it this way: there are 38 numbers in a roulette weal. Each number will come up an expected number of times (1 in 38). This will remain the same online. Now, will each number come up 1 in 38 times in any given data set; no. That is why it is THEORETICAL RTP. In gambling, when it is random, and by definition gambling has to be random, then RTP is theoretical. Nothing in our software is going to say, if you hit 32 five times in a row, then another number will come up. That WON'T happen. If you hit 32 five times in a row, there are the same odds of 1 in 38 each time you bet, no matter which number it is. Each roulette spin is independent, that is the reason martingale systems are fundamentally flawed.

Just like with flipping a coin, it is expected that heads and tails come up 50/50, but if you flip it, you might get 20 heads and 3 tails. Because randomness means that each time it is flipped, there are the same 50/50 odds at play. The coin, just like the roulette wheel, doesn't 'keep track' of whether you have won or lost. In fact casinos some games during some times players win more then they loose. This happens in land based casino as well as online. That is what is called variance, and it is the inevitable consequence of randomness. Why some games have more variance than others? The number of variables and prizes is greatly influential. To give an example, flipping a coin, which has a binary result, will have less variance than say throwing a dice (which has 6 possible combination). Try it and you will see. Flip a coin 20 times, and throw a dice 20 times. You are most likely going to get a greater variance with the dice. To find out more about variance, I suggest you check these articles:

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If you are saying that our casino software CAN'T have a RTP and an RNG, then you fundamentally don't understand these concepts. I'd suggest you read my posts again where I explain them.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

Nope atleast you answered the question everyone else is avoiding thank you.

as for RTP and RNG we as players consider RTP to be a catch all phrase for any game that operates like a slot machine r.e. 5 cents in 4 back. And we classify a fair RNG for tables to be one where your odds are the same as a real table. All luck with wins or losses depending how you play the game not a program that will hit everywhere your money isn't.

The RNG's throw out some very odd sequences which is why they gain their criticism online. Espescially when they coincide with working against strategy.
runs of 10 same color are supposed to be 1024 to 1 but I haven't played an online session yet where I haven't seen at least 1 run of 10 EVERY single time I play. Which of course leads people to believe their fixed.