Demistifying the "A.I." argument in casinos, the hoax of "Provably fair" and why P/RNGs do not need to be manipulated.

TaurineBoost

Newbie member
Joined
Feb 1, 2020
Location
U.K.
I am sure many of you are familiar with this new trend of some online casinos taunting their provably fair gaming system.

And I am sure that many people (as expressed on this and many other forums) tried these new casinos in hopes of a better gaming experience, as something for years has just not felt "right" when playing on all our beloved government approved and regulated online casinos.

The amount of posts we see from people all saying the same thing, about manipulated RNGs etc. And all these concerns are always met with the same responses, you know, the ones that the casino reps and support dish out. The "9x.xx% RTP is calculated over a billion plays yadda yadda yadda"

I would like to share what I know as it is first hand knowledge ;)
I personally was involved in a transaction with one of the largest casino brands where they purchased the means and technology to implement A.I. and machine learning throughout their network. The reasons for this, as it is public knowledge at this point, is to improve users experiences on their platforms. Fair enough.

Many people then go on to believe that this A.I. is being used against them to make their success rate 0%. But how can this be? The RNGs are all tested and regulated and there is a whole industry set up to make sure that games are fair.

This is where it gets interesting. For the ease of explanation we will use video card games as the example, but this is just to make it easier to visualise, as whether slot machine or video blackjack/poker/etc, the execution of the maths is exactly the same and it does not require the use of any supreme being type A.I.

So, without wanting to bore anyone before we get started let me post what I know in a concise manner and get going.

The human mind is condition to recognize patterns, this is one of our greatest strengths, but also an Achilles heel as that it is why predicting and manipulating human behavior has been so achievable throughout our history.
We all know a computer can not truly do "random". This is why we need P/RNGs and a regulative body to ensure that they are accurate in being as random as possible.

So why does playing on provably fair gaming sites feel exactly the same as playing on the mainstream casino platforms we are all used to then? If there was suspicion that there was some sort of manipulation then surely provably fair gaming would prove that the outcome could not be manipulated after the game/hand/cards are played/dealt?

Once I share this information I invite you all to go and test this for yourself and have some fun with it.
We are using video BlackJack as the example as it is the simplest to describe. We all know optimal strategy for giving one the best odds and reducing the house edge when playing this game. But I am sure many people have attempted to use this stratergy online and have been bankrupted after their disbelief of literally winning only 1 in 7 hands or so over 100/200/300 hands. And no matter how long you play the wins are few and far between using optimal strategy.

And we already know that the cards cannot be altered once they are dealt, this is exactly what regulation is for, to stop blatant cheating.

So here is the trick, as you will.

Imagine 1000 different stacks of cards that are all shuffled in a very different but intentional manner that for all purpose to the regulators is "random" . When you play, one of these packs of cards is used and the game commences.

I can guarantee you that the first pack of cards selected will be one that has been arranged in such a way that playing optimal strategy will yield the lowest returns. But like I said humans are very good at spotting patterns, so if you start playing the exact opposite of optimal strategy you start winning far more hands. At this point the human mind has identified a pattern. The dealer has face card of 6 and you have 2x 10s? Split the tens, you'll see what cards the dealer was going to get then ;) Yipee, let's make some money! (is the next thought)

Well, as soon as you start winning more hands than the software has encountered for, they switch the pack of cards to a different one that now favours a different strategy. For example now optimal strategy is working. Spot that pattern and it won't be long until the pack of cards are switched to a new one that makes it close to impossible to win one hand in 10 plays no matter what you do.

Now you understand what I am saying is the cards are not manipulated after they are dealt, but that the operators software has a selection of 1000 different sets of cards that have already been "shuffled" each one separate and in a specific manner that will make it disadvantageous to a particular strategy.

How do you test this for yourself? Load up any video blackjack game, and play like a complete novice with no clue of optimum strategy. Hey presto, you winning! Stick at it for 10minutes, suddenly it stops working. Switch to optimal strategy, hey presto, winning again. Stick with that a little longer etc etc

And once you have done this,and hopefully taken a little profit. Go back in a week. A month, whatever, you are already now flagged on the serves for being good at spotting patterns, and as such, you will lose literally every single hand dealt to you no matter what strategy you use.

All casinos like to get people hooked by winning, what they do not want is you making a hobby of it. If you are smart enough to take profit and walk away, you can be guaranteed that you will never be able to win again.

Enjoy and use responsibly! ;)
 

goatwack

Get dunked, big buns!
Joined
Aug 29, 2012
Location
Londonia
Sounds like some very smart A.I cookies to me

tenor.gif
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
I dont really play black jack all that much.

But just to be safe ill print your strategy and put it with the rest of the awesome tactics coming from people with great insider knowledge, but never any proof for anything they say.
In case i dont want to use it in the future.

ko2.gif
 

Playford7

Permanent Ban: Too much flaming
MM
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Location
North east England
I am sure many of you are familiar with this new trend of some online casinos taunting their provably fair gaming system.

And I am sure that many people (as expressed on this and many other forums) tried these new casinos in hopes of a better gaming experience, as something for years has just not felt "right" when playing on all our beloved government approved and regulated online casinos.

The amount of posts we see from people all saying the same thing, about manipulated RNGs etc. And all these concerns are always met with the same responses, you know, the ones that the casino reps and support dish out. The "9x.xx% RTP is calculated over a billion plays yadda yadda yadda"

I would like to share what I know as it is first hand knowledge ;)
I personally was involved in a transaction with one of the largest casino brands where they purchased the means and technology to implement A.I. and machine learning throughout their network. The reasons for this, as it is public knowledge at this point, is to improve users experiences on their platforms. Fair enough.

Many people then go on to believe that this A.I. is being used against them to make their success rate 0%. But how can this be? The RNGs are all tested and regulated and there is a whole industry set up to make sure that games are fair.

This is where it gets interesting. For the ease of explanation we will use video card games as the example, but this is just to make it easier to visualise, as whether slot machine or video blackjack/poker/etc, the execution of the maths is exactly the same and it does not require the use of any supreme being type A.I.

So, without wanting to bore anyone before we get started let me post what I know in a concise manner and get going.

The human mind is condition to recognize patterns, this is one of our greatest strengths, but also an Achilles heel as that it is why predicting and manipulating human behavior has been so achievable throughout our history.
We all know a computer can not truly do "random". This is why we need P/RNGs and a regulative body to ensure that they are accurate in being as random as possible.

So why does playing on provably fair gaming sites feel exactly the same as playing on the mainstream casino platforms we are all used to then? If there was suspicion that there was some sort of manipulation then surely provably fair gaming would prove that the outcome could not be manipulated after the game/hand/cards are played/dealt?

Once I share this information I invite you all to go and test this for yourself and have some fun with it.
We are using video BlackJack as the example as it is the simplest to describe. We all know optimal strategy for giving one the best odds and reducing the house edge when playing this game. But I am sure many people have attempted to use this stratergy online and have been bankrupted after their disbelief of literally winning only 1 in 7 hands or so over 100/200/300 hands. And no matter how long you play the wins are few and far between using optimal strategy.

And we already know that the cards cannot be altered once they are dealt, this is exactly what regulation is for, to stop blatant cheating.

So here is the trick, as you will.

Imagine 1000 different stacks of cards that are all shuffled in a very different but intentional manner that for all purpose to the regulators is "random" . When you play, one of these packs of cards is used and the game commences.

I can guarantee you that the first pack of cards selected will be one that has been arranged in such a way that playing optimal strategy will yield the lowest returns. But like I said humans are very good at spotting patterns, so if you start playing the exact opposite of optimal strategy you start winning far more hands. At this point the human mind has identified a pattern. The dealer has face card of 6 and you have 2x 10s? Split the tens, you'll see what cards the dealer was going to get then ;) Yipee, let's make some money! (is the next thought)

Well, as soon as you start winning more hands than the software has encountered for, they switch the pack of cards to a different one that now favours a different strategy. For example now optimal strategy is working. Spot that pattern and it won't be long until the pack of cards are switched to a new one that makes it close to impossible to win one hand in 10 plays no matter what you do.

Now you understand what I am saying is the cards are not manipulated after they are dealt, but that the operators software has a selection of 1000 different sets of cards that have already been "shuffled" each one separate and in a specific manner that will make it disadvantageous to a particular strategy.

How do you test this for yourself? Load up any video blackjack game, and play like a complete novice with no clue of optimum strategy. Hey presto, you winning! Stick at it for 10minutes, suddenly it stops working. Switch to optimal strategy, hey presto, winning again. Stick with that a little longer etc etc

And once you have done this,and hopefully taken a little profit. Go back in a week. A month, whatever, you are already now flagged on the serves for being good at spotting patterns, and as such, you will lose literally every single hand dealt to you no matter what strategy you use.

All casinos like to get people hooked by winning, what they do not want is you making a hobby of it. If you are smart enough to take profit and walk away, you can be guaranteed that you will never be able to win again.

Enjoy and use responsibly
Great story bro...
 

Playford7

Permanent Ban: Too much flaming
MM
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Location
North east England
I am sure many of you are familiar with this new trend of some online casinos taunting their provably fair gaming system.

And I am sure that many people (as expressed on this and many other forums) tried these new casinos in hopes of a better gaming experience, as something for years has just not felt "right" when playing on all our beloved government approved and regulated online casinos.

The amount of posts we see from people all saying the same thing, about manipulated RNGs etc. And all these concerns are always met with the same responses, you know, the ones that the casino reps and support dish out. The "9x.xx% RTP is calculated over a billion plays yadda yadda yadda"

I would like to share what I know as it is first hand knowledge ;)
I personally was involved in a transaction with one of the largest casino brands where they purchased the means and technology to implement A.I. and machine learning throughout their network. The reasons for this, as it is public knowledge at this point, is to improve users experiences on their platforms. Fair enough.

Many people then go on to believe that this A.I. is being used against them to make their success rate 0%. But how can this be? The RNGs are all tested and regulated and there is a whole industry set up to make sure that games are fair.

This is where it gets interesting. For the ease of explanation we will use video card games as the example, but this is just to make it easier to visualise, as whether slot machine or video blackjack/poker/etc, the execution of the maths is exactly the same and it does not require the use of any supreme being type A.I.

So, without wanting to bore anyone before we get started let me post what I know in a concise manner and get going.

The human mind is condition to recognize patterns, this is one of our greatest strengths, but also an Achilles heel as that it is why predicting and manipulating human behavior has been so achievable throughout our history.
We all know a computer can not truly do "random". This is why we need P/RNGs and a regulative body to ensure that they are accurate in being as random as possible.

So why does playing on provably fair gaming sites feel exactly the same as playing on the mainstream casino platforms we are all used to then? If there was suspicion that there was some sort of manipulation then surely provably fair gaming would prove that the outcome could not be manipulated after the game/hand/cards are played/dealt?

Once I share this information I invite you all to go and test this for yourself and have some fun with it.
We are using video BlackJack as the example as it is the simplest to describe. We all know optimal strategy for giving one the best odds and reducing the house edge when playing this game. But I am sure many people have attempted to use this stratergy online and have been bankrupted after their disbelief of literally winning only 1 in 7 hands or so over 100/200/300 hands. And no matter how long you play the wins are few and far between using optimal strategy.

And we already know that the cards cannot be altered once they are dealt, this is exactly what regulation is for, to stop blatant cheating.

So here is the trick, as you will.

Imagine 1000 different stacks of cards that are all shuffled in a very different but intentional manner that for all purpose to the regulators is "random" . When you play, one of these packs of cards is used and the game commences.

I can guarantee you that the first pack of cards selected will be one that has been arranged in such a way that playing optimal strategy will yield the lowest returns. But like I said humans are very good at spotting patterns, so if you start playing the exact opposite of optimal strategy you start winning far more hands. At this point the human mind has identified a pattern. The dealer has face card of 6 and you have 2x 10s? Split the tens, you'll see what cards the dealer was going to get then ;) Yipee, let's make some money! (is the next thought)

Well, as soon as you start winning more hands than the software has encountered for, they switch the pack of cards to a different one that now favours a different strategy. For example now optimal strategy is working. Spot that pattern and it won't be long until the pack of cards are switched to a new one that makes it close to impossible to win one hand in 10 plays no matter what you do.

Now you understand what I am saying is the cards are not manipulated after they are dealt, but that the operators software has a selection of 1000 different sets of cards that have already been "shuffled" each one separate and in a specific manner that will make it disadvantageous to a particular strategy.

How do you test this for yourself? Load up any video blackjack game, and play like a complete novice with no clue of optimum strategy. Hey presto, you winning! Stick at it for 10minutes, suddenly it stops working. Switch to optimal strategy, hey presto, winning again. Stick with that a little longer etc etc

And once you have done this,and hopefully taken a little profit. Go back in a week. A month, whatever, you are already now flagged on the serves for being good at spotting patterns, and as such, you will lose literally every single hand dealt to you no matter what strategy you use.

All casinos like to get people hooked by winning, what they do not want is you making a hobby of it. If you are smart enough to take profit and walk away, you can be guaranteed that you will never be able to win again.

Enjoy and use responsibly! ;)
Mate, wasting your time with such finesse and style whilst rambling on forever is a art form.
The guardian loves this type of thing, seriously get in touch.
you would put Owen Jones to shame.
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
My mind is to blown from the OP.
I struggle regarding if my bread is mouldy, or not too mouldy to dip in soup.

Just follow this list to make it easier.
I was not convinced at first, but now im 100% sure its all true.
You see my brain likes to pick up patterns.
And this story is kind of similar to alot of other true stories from people on the inside.

Inside information - check
Not saying where said inside information is from - check
Big casino brand involved - check
Not naming casino brand - check
No evidence to support any of the claims made - check
Waay to much fluff to make the point/reveal - check

ma.gif
 

Playford7

Permanent Ban: Too much flaming
MM
Joined
Jul 10, 2016
Location
North east England
Just follow this list to make it easier.
I was not convinced at first, but now im 100% sure its all true.
You see my brain likes to pick up patterns.
And this story is kind of similar to alot of other true stories from people on the inside.

Inside information - check
Not saying where said inside information is from - check
Big casino brand involved - check
Not naming casino brand - check
No evidence to support any of the claims made - check
Waay to much fluff to make the point/reveal - check

View attachment 122873
That’s way above my pay grade mate lol
 

Nordog

Experienced Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Location
Norge
Im no Expert at blackjack , but if a player draw unexpected the whole idea he present is flawed?
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Im no Expert at blackjack , but if a player draw unexpected the whole idea he present is flawed?
He is saying the AI will then change to a deck that counters unexpected draws.
So instead of just rigging the game to make you lose, they use a sophisticated artificial intelligence and 1000s of different decks to....uh...make you lose.

It all makes so much sense. But his advice is probably what makes most sense.
"Load up any video blackjack game, and play like a complete novice with no clue of optimum strategy"
Yup, that sounds like a good plan.

I think what has happened is that he has probably played alot of black jack, and noticed that the longer you play, the more likely you are of losing.
Most people would correctly guess that this is the house edge doing its thing.
But not willing to accept that he cant "beat the game" he instead invented an explanation that explains why even a masterful player like him would lose. Bj-Bot 3000 is born.

Meet BJ-Bot 3000
And no, it can not be used for what you are thinking.

robo.gif
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
No idea how these video board games exactly work, but would assume that game where you don't have live dealer, is not using same set packs of cards like in live games but these are more random for every coming round (new pack, shuffled again etc...) which makes card counting such strategies useless.

In live games, Evolution and co. are quite good at finding players doing card counting and playing absolutely tight as possible based on that, operator made aware and player banned from their tables.

So my best guess is that OP is right that all strategies are useless in video games as they for sure not provide you these same patterns and probabilities what real X amount of card packs but live games players are able to use these strategies and get banned (last one knowing for sure :) ).

It's huge difference and make all strategies useless if you get new random cards every round but that's probably how these video versions are working, instead of pre-arranged 6 packs of cards when you know all the time almost exactly what cards are left or taken.
 

bamberfishcake

Senior Member
MM
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Location
Essex
Not going to declare i fully understand this provably fair thingy but i get the jist of whats being said.

Its interesting and ive been on wiki and am now being schooled.

It might be useless to some and some might be useless to all but i like the OP, its food for thought.

Totally agree that if some of what is said is true that the best tactic is no tactic.
 

neilw

Moderator of Live Games forum
Staff member
webmeister
CAG
MM
Joined
Feb 11, 2013
Location
Kent - England
RNG Card Games follow an x Deck strategy, but those x decks are shuffled before each new game round. They have no penetration, you're not working your way through a deck, it's not how the games have been coded, which is why I don't play them and makes card counting impossible.

As for Live Games and card counting, each of the software providers like Evo, Playtech etc all run a count as the game is played and compare it to the betting patterns on the table. Any prolonged betting matching the count is likely to be dealt with quite quickly.
 

Mouche12

Kitty Lover
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Location
Amsterdam
So, if you hop from table to table and continue your counting you've got a better chance of not getting caught?
 
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