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Microgamings idea of random

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by Rusty, Aug 28, 2010.

    Aug 28, 2010
  1. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    Slot Mega Moolah 5 wheel drive.
    lines = 15 bet= 60

    Total spins 250
    spins before win greater than x3 hit 160!
    Largest win x8!
    Jackpot attempts given Zero
    Free spins won Zero
    RTP 50%
    :notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy:notworthy

    View attachment 23290

    Please come again. :D
     
  2. Aug 28, 2010
  3. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    :lolup::lolup::lolup: its RANDOM honest !
     
  4. Aug 28, 2010
  5. liquuid_fusion

    liquuid_fusion Meister Member PABnorogue PABnononaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    I expect the average RTP is pretty low anyway considering it's a Progressive version, maybe 90%.

    Pretty unlucky there though!
     
  6. Aug 28, 2010
  7. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    you should try roulette for even worst results at mg casinos , i could safely say another slot type of play. but they keep telling its random . what would be the odds of covering 83.6 on the single numbers & losing 10 spins ???
     
  8. Aug 28, 2010
  9. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    Hiya: MrJones. You had bet 31 of the 37 numbers. Please post the 6 numbers you did not bet on, and i will scim through my recorded Roulette results and give you a, "Better/Real World" answer to your question.

    Here is a real example of real spins. you bet the 0, and leave numbers 1-6 open. breaking it down into 111 spin sequences, here is some results of most losses in a row. 2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-2-3-2-3-2.2-2-3-2-2-4-2-2-2-2-2. This is the results of a total of 1554 spins.

    Using this as the true life example. Here are your results.
    Bet $1 ea on 31 numbers. = +5 on a win, and -31 on a loss. My initial review showed 4 losses a row as the most. Also, were you just flat betting?

    Oh, for anyone interested on this, if you decided to use a progression, betting this many numbers, here is the deal.
    $1 bet on 31 numbers, is +5, or a loss=-$31 on that spin, and -$31 total
    $7 bet on 31 numbers, is $4 net, or a loss of $217 on that spin, and -$248 net
    $44 bet on 31 numbers is $3 net, or a loss of $1364 on that spin, and -$4836 net

    Most casino's have a $25 max bet on a single number. So, if you had bet $1, then $7, then $25, you have a net loss of $1023 every time #'s like 6-2-4 hit in a row. If you had bet like this for real over the 1554 spins, you would have a net gain of $1305. But one more loss when they hit 3 or more in a row and you net gain goes down to $282, and of course 1 more loss and you are at minus $740, and need 165 wins in a row to get back to positive.
     
  10. Aug 28, 2010
  11. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    hi love2win . neighbours bets mainly , these are numbers missed , 7,28,29 ,0 3,35,15 ,26 last 4 spins was by memory was what came in . 15,32,15,32, what are those chances total loss just in those four spins over 500 pounds, tbh im thinking that the software knows where my bets are placed , ive done maybe of 10,000 + spins at mg casinos & can vouch that pretty much 9 times out of ten you know you get that little pause then you already know your going to lose it hits these uncovered numbers by the book most of the time , time & time again i hear that these are random , i just cant get it round my head ,if its a machine it knows ,if it was live i wouldnt even bother to mention it.
     
  12. Aug 29, 2010
  13. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    Hiya: Mr Jones, at the 4 Queens, here in Las Vegas, i have seen the number 6 hit five times in a row. At the Flamingo i have seen this hit in a row, 7-12-12-7-12-7. So Yes it is rare, but things like this DO happen every once in a while.

    THE RNG has Idenified my betting pattern, and is MAKING me Lose.:mad:

    This has been said a lot. The Casino, and type of RNG does not matter, there are Players who Truely do believe this. To those players I say this, "Hit the REPEAT Bet Button, and after that remove a couple of chips, and add a couple of chips someplace else, then hit SPIN.

    If you think the Casino is not giving you a fair game, cash out what ever is left, and go play someplace else. If you think, "All" casino's on the Net, do not give a fair game, Then don't gamble on the Net anymore.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Aug 29, 2010
  15. Rusty

    Rusty Banned User - repetitive flaming

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    Manchester UK
    You could also add that you could try to make things fairer by bringing issues to light and publicising them.

    If I were testing the roulette I would bet 36 numbers which would give a clearer indication if there were any manipulation of the results. (I know you can't win but this is a test)
    You would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.
     
    1 person likes this.
  16. Aug 30, 2010
  17. love2winalot

    love2winalot Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Roulette Player
    Location:
    Philippines/Visiting Las vegas
    [quoteYou would still need an awful lot of data though before you could make any reasonable conclusions.][/quote]

    Hiya: This is totally correct. Not only would you need a lot of data, but you would need data from different sources, Different On Line casino's, Different RNG's, and then be able to compair that data with, B&M Casino's Results.

    This would require some kind of Nut Case to be the guinnie pig to do all this. They would have to move to a Casino town like, Las Vegas or someplace. They would have to walk around like an Idiot recording all the results. They would have to open several On Line Casino accts:, and record all the results from there. They would have to be risking their own money, and not just playing for free. But where on earth could you ever hope to find such a person?:confused: hehehehehehe........;)
     
  18. Aug 30, 2010
  19. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    C'mon Rusty. You have been around long enough to know that 250 spins means absolutely nothing when it comes to measuring RTP - and also to know that a progressive slot will pay a lower RTP on the reel portion to pay for the progressive jackpot.

    The results you posted could be of a random nature - just about any results can be random, as they are just that - random - and future results do not depend on past results.

    If you suspect that these games are not random, then why do you continually play them???? ]

    Coming back time and time again making these 'casinos cheat' statements while continuing to play reduces the credibility of those statements to zero IMO. I mean, you obviously dont give your own thoughts any credence as you just keep playing, so why should anyone else??

    Post something like "I think all casinos cheat and arent random and I am never playing another cent as a result" and you would have my respect for sure.
     
  20. Aug 30, 2010
  21. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    You seem to think that a non random game equals cheating? Why?

    My guess is that Rusty knows that the games are not random and sometimes when it becomes too obvious for him he has to tell someone. I understand it.

    I will continue the funny rant then.

    The totally random game Tunzamunni :)D) is one of my favourites.

    Almost 10 times I have seen
    in a row on the line just above or below my payline.

    If that one occurs on payline jackpot is won (It's on 34 000$ right now). The same with 3 white sevens in a row, I only see that one above or under my payline. I think 3 white sevens pays 500$.

    All other combinations have been seen on my payline and not just above or under.

    Do I get mad over this even if the game isn't totally random?

    No, of course not. I play it and when 3 sevens occurs (minimum 20 bucks) I take the win and then leave the machine with a win. Because the machine never hits for a while after 3 sevens occurs.
     
  22. Aug 30, 2010
  23. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    If the casino states that the game is random, and it actually is not, then it is cheating - its a long way from saying that all non-random games are cheating.

    Rusty is saying that MG claims their slot spins are random, but he believes they are not. So, in his eyes, they are 'cheating'.

    The 3-reel slots are almost always programmed using the 'near miss' principle....it is a ploy to make players think they 'just missed' the big win, when in fact they were no closer than if there were no 7's on the screen at all.
     
  24. Aug 30, 2010
  25. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    Just the answer I wanted! :thumbsup:

    Do you really mean that they programmed the random game to fool me to believe that I was close to the big win? How is it then random? ;)

    Give me your explanation and then I will give you mine.
     
  26. Aug 30, 2010
  27. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Well, first let me say I am not a programmer and can only speak about what I have read from several experts etc over the years from several sources.

    To make it easier, lets just say there are 100 possible results @$1 per spins and all of them must add together to make the 95% RTP. The spin result is decided by 2 questions - is it win or lose, and (if win) how much.

    So, the total of the 'win' spins must equal $95 and will be made up of different winning combinations, with the specific amount of each win being displayed as a certain arrangement of symbols on the winning line e.g. 3 7s or 3 bars etc etc. In other words, the win amount is decided first and then the program displays the appropriate images. Lets leave this bit now.

    If it is a 'lose' spin, then the program can decide what the 'lose' spin will look like. So, what I am saying in essence, is that the programmers can code in such a way that the 'lose' spins are often displayed as being 'close' to a big win, when in fact its just a way of saying 'you lost' - the difference being that they want to 'tease' you into playing some more.

    It is possible for the results to be random, but the display of those results to be manipulated. In this way, the game will still pay what it should. After all, what does it matter what the losing spin displays? You lose just the same as if you had 3 blanks etc, but you are more likely to keep spinning if you seem to be 'close' to a win.

    I know its a very simple example but I hope it makes sense.
     
    2 people like this.
  28. Aug 30, 2010
  29. aceking123

    aceking123 Ueber Meister CAG PABnononaccred MM

    Occupation:
    chippy
    Location:
    uk
    hi , winalot , im saying that over more than 10 years of playing more often than not, you tend to see these blank numbers coming into play more & more often , & yes you have to have a fair number of spins to got a full good audit ,but as a semi skilled player , im saying that the software does in fact know where your betting & if roulette is losing it will switch to hitting those numbers, how come i see sometimes 4 28,s 0r 5 28s come in a row , now bare in mind i dont play that number , but this never ever happens to one of my numbers ive had this on many occasions & before people jump up to defend the casinos & software ,ive never ever had such a bad run at a land based casino which ive been doing for over 20 years , yes ive lost but at least ive hit a single number ,roulette & blackjack on mg,rtg is just as bad ,i could ask how many people would would say that these games are correct & no doubt find that alot of people would get what im saying & i dont mind losing at all ,but i at least would like a fair game wins losses , but rarely do you get these with mg casinos & rtg casinos ,also i shall point out that i dont realy play chicken feed i play normal stakes , i see the format between mg & rtg softwares where it comes to table games you either win or lose mainly lose i would say round about one session win in 20-30 sessions .jmop though .:thumbsup:
     
  30. Aug 30, 2010
  31. DiamondGeezer

    DiamondGeezer Dormant account PABnononaccred2 PABnoaccred PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Antiques Dealer
    Location:
    NOT Pennsylvania!!!
    No that is not it. It's not a case of programming but reel layout I think. Am sure someone cleverer than me can prove this.
     
  32. Aug 30, 2010
  33. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    Nifty: I understand your point, but you are not describing a totally random game.

    According to your answer I get the picture of a lot of eye candy when it comes to this machine. I have found one single eye candy in this machine and that is when the third reel corrects itself before the final result is displayed. Just like an old real slot machine does.

    I can tell you that your theory probably wouldn't pass those RNG test they have done on these slots. I sure hope not anyway.


    My answer when it comes to a totally random game


    It all comes to reel layout and their RNG. If they have 50 symbols (even the blank one is a symbol) on all reels you have a total of 50x50x50 combinations. 125000 combinations. If it exist only one white 7 on each reel the chance of hitting that combination is 1/125000.
    If it exists 25 blanks on all reels the chance of hitting that combination is 0.5x0.5x0.5 = 0.125 (1/8 or 12,5 % chance)

    RNG produces for example 13-33-08 and this is 7 -single bar -blank and this is no win. The payline shows exactly this and above that you see the combination 14-34-09..below the payline you see the combination 12-32-07..

    Next spin is 02-22-48 and is then of course 3 blanks in a row and you win 0.50. above and under the payline you see the combinations 01-21-47 and 03-23-49.

    This is the exact same as on 5 reel videoslots as Tomb Raider and Thunderstruck as well but there you have numbers like 11-34-38-43-11.

    But what is it with these slots that is not totally random then?

    The reel layout already has decided what RTP the game is supposed to have.

    All slots have a "stabilizer" which is based on passed rtp and betsizes. This can be the last 500 spins or the last 100 spins, we can't know. And Microgaming for sure don't tell us. :D My own guess is that the stabilizer values the last 50 spins more than the last 500 spins.

    Every time a combination is drawn by RNG they pass it on to the stabilizer to see if this one is ok. If the RTP has been 150% the last 100 spins 3 sevens in a row will not pass the stabilizer. A new number is drawn and this one is three blanks in a row and this will pass. Congratulations, you won 0.50 instead of 20 bucks. :D

    If the stabilizer notice a low RTP on the passed games it will on the other hand not approve to many losses.

    I have seen it, trust me. That 40 line slot Prime Property actually throwed out money once I saw it. Every other spin was showing 4 scatters and there was Prime Property signs all over the board.

    Also remember when Aussiedave won a lot on Break da Bank again 5 months ago, the machine obviously wanted to pay..

    To the Tunzamunni slot again, I checked and I have not seen 3 white 7 in a row above or below more than once.
    It's only the jackpot figures I have seen almost 10 times.
    According to reel strips it has to be easier to get white seven-red seven-blue seven than three white sevens in a row.
     
  34. Aug 30, 2010
  35. liquuid_fusion

    liquuid_fusion Meister Member PABnorogue PABnononaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    Maphesto, what you're saying about reel layout is correct for some slots (Thunderstrcuk for example) but as far as I know all the 3-reel slots are "weighted". 5 reel drive is also a weighted slot. This means that certain symbols or blanks on the reels have a greater chance of falling into the payline than others. The game is still random, it's just impossible to calculate the RTP without knowing what the weightings are.

    Many blank combinations will have high paying symbols next to them to make it look like a win might be close, but obviously the chance of a big win never changes.

    The "stabilizer" stuff you mention is all completely false.
     
  36. Aug 30, 2010
  37. maphesto

    maphesto Ueber Meister CAG MM webmeister

    Location:
    Sweden
    Is it? :rolleyes:


    About the "weighted" slots, there is a possibility that they have a lot of blanks not showed on reels. That is correct, but the "stabilizer" still is there.

    And if they have a weighted slot it still is getting close to a cheating machine..
    Then my theory with a stabilizer is a lot more fair.

    I think that Microgamings slots are fair and they are not cheating. They are just stabilizing the slots to their estimated RTP.
     
  38. Aug 30, 2010
  39. liquuid_fusion

    liquuid_fusion Meister Member PABnorogue PABnononaccred2 PABaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    UK
    Apart from being completely unneccesary, a slot with a "stabilizer" is open to abuse and would be the death of any casino online. UK fruit machines have this feature and people can learn to beat them because of it despite the average 78% RTP!

    It's just completely impossible and unthinkable that this would be the case online. Incidentally the AWP slots on MG simulate this feature (but the mechanics behind it are different).


    "weighted" slots are not just a theory. Some slots are weighted. You can tell by determining the reels and putting them into a simulator. If the RTP is wildly away from expectation then the slot is weighted (eg a weighted slot may indicate a RTP of 250% just from the reels alone).
     
    1 person likes this.

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