Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

You worry too much!
Didn’t you say almost nobody access the info pages? Put some more info for me and anybody else that wants it.

Put 3 out of 10 highest wins, or something like that. I just want confirmation that it is possible, because right now I am sure it isn’t. I don’t care that the odds are small, I know they are.
Do you see this, the reels from Avalon II (from an old forum member)?

View attachment 76222

That makes me happy, that makes me want to play it because I see a full screen of wilds possible.
Don’t care how difficult it is to get 15 wilds in DOA. But I do want to know if it is possible to get. And of course I want to know what are the odds of a wildline and how much you change the hit frequency of things inside a feature.

I will go back to Bonanza (sorry). Right now I am sure the odds for 20 or 30 way diamonds in free spins are 0. Not 1 in a trillion, just 0. That makes me stop playing it. Keeping the information for themselves only makes people sure they have something to hide. Tell me a 20 way diamonds is naturally* possible in base game and free spins and it will become my favorite slot. Don’t care if the odds are getting naturally* super small.

*Naturally: the deference in the odds from 10 way to 20 way is just the hit frequency of 2 instead of 1 same symbols in any row, or just like the diference from 1 way to 2 way.

I can't comment on whether those reels are true or not... would be easy to work out though with some rudimentary programming or excel shenanigans.

As mentioned earlier in Singapore we have to state the odds for the top award (on a single payline)...

To be honest though, as much as it may make no difference, I would still be against it for the reasons I gave... not because I WANT to hide anything but just because perception is better than reality a lot of the time and slot design is a lot about perception.

 

[Ork]

You obviously do not fully understand the concept of RTP. With online random slots, the RTP is NOT controlled - it is the result of maths.
EVERY spin is an independent random event - real or fun mode.

Sorry if someone already answered that - I'm just catching up on the last 100+ posts in this thread!

KK

Okay I think I get it, So each spin is a completely random event independent of any past or future spin but with a slightly weighted choice of outcomes against the player which is determined by the RTP.
Thanks For your patience

Great thread!

I didn't then but somewhere within this thread the penny dropped, thanks

 

[PatrickNess]

Near misses, RTP weight, regulations (again!)

(...) not because I WANT to hide anything but just because perception is better than reality a lot of the time and slot design is a lot about perception.

Thank god there are regulations : near misses in the end result, cannot occur more frequently than they should.
As everyone knows,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

Wait a minute.... everything can happen before the reels stop.


Gee, that's a lot of stacked high symbols at almost every spin. Yet, stops less than 1% of the time on the stacked symbol.
Same with almost all other video slots. Wow, I really have a chance to get 5 scatters in DoA!


The same regulations that allow casinos/devs to weight RTP as they want (as long as no combination is strictly 0%), in order to let player think that any of the symbol combinations contribute more than 2% to RTP...

and all weight on the 5 reel WD, 0.000001% on 2,3,4 WD etc...
An event which happens every hundred thousand, million, or billions spins... and since when it happens, winner almost always plays it back. So actual rtp around 1%, the elusive "withdrawal". But don't worry, casinos still have their last weapon, T&Cs, should any "RTP" be not enough.

and

these regulations allowing to play whatever loud music/display beautiful effects on wins that pay <1x (=losses), as often as necessary to condition the brain of the rich player.


Casino industry is like any industry, a greedy industry. IMHO, the greediest.

You can blame them or not.

Everything that's not forbidden is allowed.

I thing the regulators are to be blamed... should they be considered as a separate, impartial entity that is!

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank god there are regulations : near misses in the end result, cannot occur more frequently than they should.
As everyone knows,

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

.

Wait a minute.... everything can happen before the reels stop.

View attachment 76229
Gee, that's a lot of stacked high symbols at almost every spin. Yet, stops less than 1% of the time on the stacked symbol.
Same with almost all other video slots. Wow, I really have a chance to get 5 scatters in DoA!


The same regulations that allow casinos/devs to weight RTP as they want (as long as no combination is strictly 0%), in order to let player think that any of the symbol combinations contribute more than 2% to RTP...
View attachment 76230
and all weight on the 5 reel WD, 0.000001% on 2,3,4 WD etc...
An event which happens every hundred thousand, million, or billions spins... and since when it happens, winner almost always plays it back. So actual rtp around 1%, the elusive "withdrawal". But don't worry, casinos still have their last weapon, T&Cs, should any "RTP" be not enough.

and

these regulations allowing to play whatever loud music/display beautiful effects on wins that pay <1x (=losses), as often as necessary to condition the brain of the rich player.


Casino industry is like any industry, a greedy industry. IMHO, the greediest.

You can blame them or not.

Everything that's not forbidden is allowed.

I thing the regulators are to be blamed... should they be considered as a separate, impartial entity that is!

There are regulations around near misses and that kind of reel spin would probably be disallowed in most retail jurisdictions as it's misleading.

The B&M jurisdictions we operate in don't allow us to show reel symbols during a reel spin that can't be won.

Also, wins less than stake should never be celebrated as "wins", but are a necessary part of game design sometimes (stacked reels games, cascading games, etc.)... if we didn't give wins less than stake, you'd end up with much narrower game designs, less lines and a much lower win frequency.

And of course everything that isn't forbidden is allowed... that's a ridiculous comment to make. This is how all laws and regulations work all over the world in every walk of life.

The main thing is that we try to be fair and we try and design games that are exciting and fun to play. I have never purposely designed a game to be misleading.

Everyone will have an opinion on what is fair and what isn't.... there is an obvious difference of opinion on here! However, if you feel able to explain to me how you would go about making the fairest slot game that was also fun to play, had a high Max win but not with a very low chance of happening, with a good win frequency and everything else you might want, let me know... as I've been doing this a long time and I still don't know

 

[nikantw]

... perception is better than reality a lot of the time and slot design is a lot about perception.

Fine with perception, as long as it is not deception. If odds are 1/10000 but feel like 1/10 it is fine. If odds are 0 it is deception. We forget the odds the minute we start playing. We always think “this is my lucky day”. Perception will always be there, no need for deception.

If odds are 0 and you let us think it is 1/1000 it is deception.
If odds drop considerably inside a feature and we don’t know it, it is deception.
Wrong perception can also cause the feeling that there is a deception where there is not.
Trust is important, giving some info goes a long way. You wont lose perception, you will even have more!

 

[trancemonkey]

Fine with perception, as long as it is not deception. If odds are 1/10000 but feel like 1/10 it is fine. If odds are 0 it is deception. We forget the odds the minute we start playing. We always think “this is my lucky day”. Perception will always be there, no need for deception.

If odds are 0 and you let as think it is 1/1000 it is deception.
If odds drop considerably inside a feature and we don’t know it, it is deception.
Wrong perception can also cause the feeling that there is a deception where there is not.
Trust is important, giving some info goes a long way. You wont lose perception, you will even have more!

Completely agree... hence we are never allowed to show reel bands that can't land in view (I know some games spin through reel bands with symbols that just can't land in view)...

This is wrong.

I can't speak for everyone, just myself and the companies I've worked for, but I know that integrity is a big part of what we try and do... mainly because we don't want to piss the players or the regulators off. Neither would benefit us...

 

[brianmon]

Completely agree... hence we are never allowed to show reel bands that can't land in view (I know some games spin through reel bands with symbols that just can't land in view)...

This is wrong.

I can't speak for everyone, just myself and the companies I've worked for, but I know that integrity is a big part of what we try and do... mainly because we don't want to piss the players or the regulators off. Neither would benefit us...

Have you played the new HTML5 version of DOA, and if so, what are your thoughts on the way they're gimping the reels?

On every spin, they show a glimpse of the symbols above the top line. The symbols are almost always scatters and wilds. which aren't actually in that position on the reel strips.

Making almost every spin a 'near miss'

You can often get a scatter or wild on the top line (line 2), and right above it you'll get a glimpse of another scatter or wild. Yet you'll never ever see 2 scatters or wilds stacked above each other in the main 5x3 play area

 

[chris87]

I'm late into this, but a really interesting thread and thank you for all the answers.

Many of my questions have been answered and I get it about the random outcome of each bet based on the RNG when the button is pressed. I have noticed, however, over my years of slot playing that my luck seems to almost have a pattern, for example-

-After a big win, my luck goes, not just at the casino I'm playing at, but at all 10 casinos I use.
-Conversely, if my luck is in, it seems to be replicated across most of the casinos I play at, until it drops again.
-After a break, on return my luck seems better and in fact I've hit my best wins after a break.

I know you've covered the issue of the RNG by provider knowing the player identity, but I'm sure there is a pattern, at least I have a very strong perception. I've brought this up before and there was a thread a while ago in the same vein. Its as if all the casinos/providers have an outcome to hit a personal RTP, even though I believe the RTP per game is across all players and casinos.

I'd be interested in your thoughts, thanks again for the thread.

Chris

 

[trancemonkey]

Have you played the new HTML5 version of DOA, and if so, what are your thoughts on the way they're gimping the reels?

On every spin, they show a glimpse of the symbols above the top line. The symbols are almost always scatters and wilds. which aren't actually in that position on the reel strips.

Making almost every spin a 'near miss'

You can often get a scatter or wild on the top line (line 2), and right above it you'll get a glimpse of another scatter or wild. Yet you'll never ever see 2 scatters or wilds stacked above each other in the main 5x3 play area

If that's on purpose, which i sincerely doubt, it's not something I would ever do... as is obvious here, it makes you distrust the machine. We have reel code that makes sure that this never happens....

It certainly shouldn't happen and I agree it's annoying

 

[trancemonkey]

I'm late into this, but a really interesting thread and thank you for all the answers.

Many of my questions have been answered and I get it about the random outcome of each bet based on the RNG when the button is pressed. I have noticed, however, over my years of slot playing that my luck seems to almost have a pattern, for example-

-After a big win, my luck goes, not just at the casino I'm playing at, but at all 10 casinos I use.
-Conversely, if my luck is in, it seems to be replicated across most of the casinos I play at, until it drops again.
-After a break, on return my luck seems better and in fact I've hit my best wins after a break.

I know you've covered the issue of the RNG by provider knowing the player identity, but I'm sure there is a pattern, at least I have a very strong perception. I've brought this up before and there was a thread a while ago in the same vein. Its as if all the casinos/providers have an outcome to hit a personal RTP, even though I believe the RTP per game is across all players and casinos.

I'd be interested in your thoughts, thanks again for the thread.

Chris

I can (almost*) guarantee that what you are seeing is perception. I'll explain it a bit like this...

A big win (say 100x) is rare. So when you get it you've been lucky... statistically you are therefore more likey NOT to continue that run of luck... but of course you can.

A random profile can absolutely "run hot and cold".. it's just the nature of random games. I could swear blind sometimes by own games behave like they are compensated... and if I didn't know for definite they weren't I could very easily say the same as you.

I don't expect to change everyone's, or even anyone's, mind - but I'm just telling you what I know

*as I've repeated many times I can only go off my own knowledge and experience

 

[oldschooldm]

Bonus rounds

Hi,

First of all thank you very much to TranceMonkey, Captain Rizk, as well as everybody else for contributing to this thread and shedding light on some questions that I have asked myself for quite some time.

Trancemonkey has explained that the results of a Spin are determined once you click Spin - that makes sense to me and I read this before. My question is, if you take the game Eye of the Kraken for example, and you make it to the bonus feature. You can choose between 6 chests, if your first pick fails, you get another chance, if your fist pick is successful you can try again until you a) pick the remaining 2 chests that contain money b) pick another empty chest (as far as I know). If the results are predetermined, does it then actually matter, which chest(s) I choose, or does it not matter meaning that no matter which of the 6 chests I pick, I will always receive, let's say 10 times my bet?

Thank you for taking the time.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi,

First of all thank you very much to TranceMonkey, Captain Rizk, as well as everybody else for contributing to this thread and shedding light on some questions that I have asked myself for quite some time.

Trancemonkey has explained that the results of a Spin are determined once you click Spin - that makes sense to me and I read this before. My question is, if you take the game Eye of the Kraken for example, and you make it to the bonus feature. You can choose between 6 chests, if your first pick fails, you get another chance, if your fist pick is successful you can try again until you a) pick the remaining 2 chests that contain money b) pick another empty chest (as far as I know). If the results are predetermined, does it then actually matter, which chest(s) I choose, or does it not matter meaning that no matter which of the 6 chests I pick, I will always receive, let's say 10 times my bet?

Thank you for taking the time.

We've covered this before but it's a big thread now so I've no problem in explaining again....

Whilst it is not impossible (or unheard of) for the outcome of a pick to be determined at the time the pick is actioned, it is much more likely that the entire outcome of the pick round is predetermined either on the initial spin request, when the game server knows you are getting the bonus, or at the start of the bonus round (before any picks are made). This is because the server needs to know the outcome in case the game needs to recover....

 

[oldschooldm]

Thanks for your reply. I know that it was brought up when we spoke about Secrets of the Stones but I wanted to be 100% sure. I have read through all of this thread so sorry if this question was redundant

Another question, if you don't mind (I am quite sure this one was not posed before): When it comes to progressive slots, for example Mega Fortune, where in theory each spin can trigger the jackpot round, and also the biggest jackpot, do you think the chance to win one of the jackpots increases in a linear way, so let's say it is twice as high when you spin for 0,50 Euro as opposed to 0,25 Euro? Most paytables/rules quote that the chance to win progressive slots increase the more you bet. I mean most "jackpot hunters" probably play max bet on progressive jackpot slots since this gives them the biggest chance to win, but personally I can not fathom that the chance to win a progressive jackpot is 20x as high for a 5,00 Euro bet compared to a 0,25 Euro bet.

I know that you are working mostly with landbased slots, but maybe you (or somebody else) has an idea.

Thank you

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks for your reply. I know that it was brought up when we spoke about Secrets of the Stones but I wanted to be 100% sure. I have read through all of this thread so sorry if this question was redundant

Another question, if you don't mind (I am quite sure this one was not posed before): When it comes to progressive slots, for example Mega Fortune, where in theory each spin can trigger the jackpot round, and also the biggest jackpot, do you think the chance to win one of the jackpots increases in a linear way, so let's say it is twice as high when you spin for 0,50 Euro as opposed to 0,25 Euro? Most paytables/rules quote that the chance to win progressive slots increase the more you bet. I mean most "jackpot hunters" probably play max bet on progressive jackpot slots since this gives them the biggest chance to win, but personally I can not fathom that the chance to win a progressive jackpot is 20x as high for a 5,00 Euro bet compared to a 0,25 Euro bet.

I know that you are working mostly with landbased slots, but maybe you (or somebody else) has an idea.

Thank you

Hey... great questurn. Whether land based or online most slots work the same way... so feel free to ask about either...

There are a few ways of doing progressive jackpots such as this but yes the most obvious and easiest way is that you keep the chance of getting to the feature that awards the progressive the same (in the case of Mega Fortune) but you alter the chance of the prizes linearly in line with bet size.

The other option is to just award the progressive (assuming no feature in the middle) on a chance which is linearly proportionate to the bet size

 

[PatrickNess]

Everyone will have an opinion on what is fair and what isn't.

Anything that is documented or that complies with regulations (=not forbidden) is fine*! If regulations say it's ok to display full screens of wilds before reels stop, I'm totally ok with that. I'd play that game. Actually if I were in the industry, I'd push it to the limit and beyond as the benefits would certainly be worth the little annoyance of a warning or a fine of couple of million euros, or a backlash of players who'd eventually come back (because of their addiction) !

* The only critical point, what's fair, is that for every single bet the player must be able to verify that the win or loss doesn't depend on bet amount. If the outcome is set but unknown to the player before the spin, then it's ok. If moreover over 100 billions spins it is mathematically random (aka no patterns, uniform distribution if we talk of numbers between 0 and 1), then it's even better. Suppose I bet big on a single spin and loose. If I can't verify that the casino/game/provider did not make me loose because of big bet, I cannot say the game is fair no matter how unpredictable or statistically likely the loss was. This is all addressed by the said provably fair technology or algorithm or whatever.

The state of online slots nowadays is like playing head or tails without first checking that there is a head side and a tail side. Test labs toss 1 million times, finds ~50/50 or not, maybe even checks if there is head and tails. BUT the player cannot verify 1) that he's playing with the same coin and 2) most importantly that his coin has head and tails.

Of course, this forces to disclose the game mechanics and hence paytable frequency, exact distributions. Damn you intellectual property ! But 99% of players know absolutely shit what a distribution function is. Let alone those who know and give a damn to the details. And :

If two games share the exact same paytable frequency or distribution (for example Gonzo's Quest and Thunderstruk II- ok they don't but let's assume), I'd play the one with sound, graphics, theme, the way big wins looks big, or small wins looks big I like the most. Still is a lot that can be protected by intellectual property. But if a third game with same paytable frequency is ugly as shit, sounds like crap, but allows me to verify its integrity. then I would play that one 90% of the time.... and I do (not slots).


So how to make an entertaining good fair game ? Keep being creative, do whatever you like with the mechanics, distributions, graphics, sounds. But make it fair.


Imagine the blast when Microgaming or NetEnt publish their first provably fair slot. That's not gonna happen. Because... (no need to repeat, I know, IP etc).

IMHO, the secret can only be detrimental to the player, unnecessary for the professionals, and last but not least, beneficial to the thieves .

People who say "they don't need to rig the games because it has a built-in house edge" are either dishonest or ignorant.

 

[trancemonkey]

[Sic]

So how to make an entertaining good fair game ? Keep being creative, do whatever you like with the mechanics, distributions, graphics, sounds. But make it fair.


Imagine the blast when Microgaming or NetEnt publish their first provably fair slot. That's not gonna happen. Because... (no need to repeat, I know, IP etc).

IMHO, the secret can only be detrimental to the player, unnecessary for the professionals, and last but not least, beneficial to the thieves .

People who say "they don't need to rig the games because it has a built-in house edge" are either dishonest or ignorant.

I understand where you're coming from. But I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Firstly, all my games are fair. Regulations for the most part are there to make sure games are fair... do some companies push that boundary? Sure...

But then what is fair... having worked in this industry for a long time I bet my definition of fair is very different to yours.

I GUARANTEE that on every spin of my games you have THE SAME chance of winning every prize as on every other spin. The only time this might not be true is on games with persistence in the base game (for example a game with wilds that can stay for a number of spins in the base game).

I get, I really do, some people's obsession with provably fair... but unless it is forced by a regulatory it will never happen with any major supplier because we already have to be provably fair in order to get a licence for the game through an accredited test house.

People who say "they don't need to rig the games because it has a built-in house edge" are either dishonest or ignorant

Then I'm happy to be called dishonest and ignorant... because, on all good honest casinos (and there are a lot - and definitely some not so honest ones) there is no need to rig the games. There isn't. Accept it.

I've never done it. Never needed to do it. Never been asked to do it. Never considered doing it. Don't see any advantage in doing it. Don't want to do it.

Believe what you want of me... I couldn't care less if you think I'm lying here... but I will sleep soundly knowing I wouldnt cheat players. I am a player....

 

[TheAddict]

Doa gimped reels are annoying. Not to echo brians comment regarding the 2 scatters where 1 lands 1 above top the payline and another lands on the middle payline of the same reel (obv something which is impossible,as if the reels were to be shifted down one step you would have 2 scatters on the same reel)
Had a 1100x win with 5 extra spins yesturday, didnt even make a wildline to acheive itJust like all the other big wins ive had on html version which.
Its sad but i would actually appreciate if the bonus roundsalso produced MORE of the occasional 0 win results from the spins and also produce 0 wilds with more frequencly, just so i can remove the tin foil hat and be content with beleif the varience has not been altered.
That is something that has almost not happened at all in my previous 500 or so bonus rounds, a 0 win or 0 wiilds.. and now i bloody want to see a bit more of them lol, Where the old version (for me, having played it a crap load) enjoyed giving 2-3 of such bonus rounds in a row at times with such a result and as far as i can remember over 5 out of 100 bonus rounds doing it, not 2-3 in 500 like html does for me. Just left feeling that each time i get a fair few wilds or close to a wl (often on html for me) there is no point getting excited, like i used to with the 20 wild lines i hit on the previous version.
And dont get me started on the frequency of the double 5oak sherrif winning combination, which seems to have been removed from existance
So tin foil hat is not removed, and glued like a mofo. Almost feels as if the none ability to reduce paylines (making it easier to recode the trtp or something along those lines if i remember reading here correctly), was more so to make it easier to recode the game varience itself while alsomaking it easier to calculate the trtp.
Again , tinfoil hat is on, but i do not trust these html one bit.

I was also playing lights last night, which ran smoother and faster than where i used to play it (money draining much faster as well as a result, especially with the unusual lack of bonus rounds) .. but ther reason i mention lights is that when i came out of one of the bonus rounds, the reels were all in the correct position as they had landed in order to trigger the bonus round... only this time i had 2 scatters on reel 1 instead of what before the bonus round was only 1 scatter, why the other one decided to join the part late and when the show was over is beyond me! . Alike much of the gimped crap you see on doa html now, that really did just look stupid. Pure Gimpedness.

i appreciate this may not be the right thread to mention it, but after another 14 hour binge on html doa since 2 days ago, brians question got me thinking.

 

[PatrickNess]

(...)

People who say "they don't need to rig the games because it has a built-in house edge" are either dishonest or ignorant

Then I'm happy to be called dishonest and ignorant...
I've never done it. Never needed to do it. Never been asked to do it. Never considered doing it. Don't see any advantage in doing it. Don't want to do it.
(...)

Noooo. Wasn't aimed at you but often heard in "unbelievable bad luck" discussions (aka 99% of Slots Discussion). I explain myself :

I) For the individual player that we all are 1) we don't know how many spins is needed to approach that RTP within a certain margin 2) assuming it is a high number, it cannot be achieved in most games (roulette < 1 million ok; DoA > ??? billions?; progressives > x times age of universe?) because of max spins per hour (and money!).

II) The player cannot even know if the TRTP is or can be approached by a pool of players or all players ! Sometimes an actual casino RTP given by some "independent auditors"

Bottom line is, there is a built-in house-edge ok. But the player cannot verify if it is the one or even remotely close to the one announced. Hence the "rig", "cheat", "deception", "tricked" comment.


No offenses there. I wasn't pointing fingers at you, your company(ies), or anything but (I must admit) the regulators allowing the current state of things. Players must trust third parties (while the technique to offer at least a partial alternative exists).

 

[Playford7]

I understand where you're coming from. But I wholeheartedly disagree with you.

Firstly, all my games are fair. Regulations for the most part are there to make sure games are fair... do some companies push that boundary? Sure...

But then what is fair... having worked in this industry for a long time I bet my definition of fair is very different to yours.

I GUARANTEE that on every spin of my games you have THE SAME chance of winning every prize as on every other spin. The only time this might not be true is on games with persistence in the base game (for example a game with wilds that can stay for a number of spins in the base game).

I get, I really do, some people's obsession with provably fair... but unless it is forced by a regulatory it will never happen with any major supplier because we already have to be provably fair in order to get a licence for the game through an accredited test house.

People who say "they don't need to rig the games because it has a built-in house edge" are either dishonest or ignorant

Then I'm happy to be called dishonest and ignorant... because, on all good honest casinos (and there are a lot - and definitely some not so honest ones) there is no need to rig the games. There isn't. Accept it.

I've never done it. Never needed to do it. Never been asked to do it. Never considered doing it. Don't see any advantage in doing it. Don't want to do it.

Believe what you want of me... I couldn't care less if you think I'm lying here... but I will sleep soundly knowing I wouldnt cheat players. I am a player....

Fantastic and honest post. Kudos for that alone, never mind the questions your answering. Thanks

 

[trancemonkey]

Noooo. Wasn't aimed at you but often heard in "unbelievable bad luck" discussions (aka 99% of Slots Discussion). I explain myself :

I) For the individual player that we all are 1) we don't know how many spins is needed to approach that RTP within a certain margin 2) assuming it is a high number, it cannot be achieved in most games (roulette < 1 million ok; DoA > ??? billions?; progressives > x times age of universe?) because of max spins per hour (and money!).

II) The player cannot even know if the TRTP is or can be approached by a pool of players or all players ! Sometimes an actual casino RTP given by some "independent auditors"

Bottom line is, there is a built-in house-edge ok. But the player cannot verify if it is the one or even remotely close to the one announced. Hence the "rig", "cheat", "deception", "tricked" comment.


No offenses there. I wasn't pointing fingers at you, your company(ies), or anything but (I must admit) the regulators allowing the current state of things. Players must trust third parties (while the technique to offer at least a partial alternative exists).

I know you didn't aim it at me dude... I'm just saying that they aren't rigged. RTP doesn't vary an enormous amount after 1m games on most machines. You'll be very close to RTP after that. When I'm doing my simulations (I write my own sometimes) to prove the spreadsheets are correct, I rarely run more than 10m to prove it to 2 decimal places.

DoA has some monster wins in it... of course... but these will account for a small amount of the RTP and in 10m games I imagine they are very close to the RTP too

 

[trancemonkey]

Bottom line is, there is a built-in house-edge ok. But the player cannot verify if it is the one or even remotely close to the one announced. Hence the "rig", "cheat", "deception", "tricked" comment.

Daft question time ..

When you buy a chicken and mushroom pie... why are you sure it's chicken. Why don't you think it's turkey. How would you check it was chicken? Or would you trust the manufacturer and the ingredients.

When you buy a car, do you trust the guy that tells you its a 1.6 engine. How do you know is not a 1.7?

When you fill up with fuel, how do you know the petrol pump dispensed the amount of fuel it said it did?

You do all of those things on trust don't you. You don't question it. So why do you think we are any different? My belief is that, rightly or wrongly, when we as gamblers lose money we can't accept it was through luck (slots) or poor judgement (betting) so we throw the rigged word around. It's far easier to believe the games are against us than believe in bad luck..

It's the same reason people still believe in God... it's probably easier to believe in God than believe in the fact everything came from the big bang for some people...

Let's not turn this in to a religious debate... but hope you can see the point I'm making.

 

[chris87]

Thanks for your answer to my question earlier about slots going cold following a big win. It may well be perception, but it's a strong one. Also after a withdrawal at a particular casino, the casino in question seems to go cold for a while after.

Re the DOA new version issue, it is absolutely true that the reels show a scatter just off the reel in a situation which would lead to the potential of two scatters falling in view on the same reel, which isn't possible as we know, so there's something not right here. Also, it's clear that almost every time you get 2 scatters at least one has just missed on another reel. Very much fits in with the psychology of slot design.

Thanks again- Chris

 

[Playford7]

Thanks for your answer to my question earlier about slots going cold following a big win. It may well be perception, but it's a strong one. Also after a withdrawal at a particular casino, the casino in question seems to go cold for a while after.

Re the DOA new version issue, it is absolutely true that the reels show a scatter just off the reel in a situation which would lead to the potential of two scatters falling in view on the same reel, which isn't possible as we know, so there's something not right here. Also, it's clear that almost every time you get 2 scatters at least one has just missed on another reel. Very much fits in with the psychology of slot design.

Thanks again- Chris

Like that. All slots, any gambling platform infact is there to real in a gambler, whether it be sounds, gameplay, graphics...even icons...there where they are and do what they do to make money from us. Fair enough just wish they where more honest with there dealings.

 

[oldschooldm]

Excluded games

Thanks again for your answer.

Another question that I've put some thought into is excluded games, when it comes to bonuses. There seem to be sites that barely exclude any slots, while others sport 10 or even more games. It makes perfect sense to me to exclude games such as Blood Suckers (RTP) and Dead or Alive (volatility).

However, when games such as Eye of the Kraken oder Lucky Angler are mentioned, which do not seem to have a very high RTP (unless I am mistaken), what is the main reason these are excluded? Is it just the potential, for example due to Sticky Wilds in Lucky Angler, is it the Free Spins/Bonus Round in Eye of the Kraken, could it also be a mix or RTP/Volatility/amount of features?

Depending on your answer, can you think of a reason why not all casinos exclude the same games? Could it be due to let's say increased wagering on bonuses compared to other sites?

 

[Playford7]

Thanks again for your answer.

Another question that I've put some thought into is excluded games, when it comes to bonuses. There seem to be sites that barely exclude any slots, while others sport 10 or even more games. It makes perfect sense to me to exclude games such as Blood Suckers (RTP) and Dead or Alive (volatility).

However, when games such as Eye of the Kraken oder Lucky Angler are mentioned, which do not seem to have a very high RTP (unless I am mistaken), what is the main reason these are excluded? Is it just the potential, for example due to Sticky Wilds in Lucky Angler, is it the Free Spins/Bonus Round in Eye of the Kraken, could it also be a mix or RTP/Volatility/amount of features?

Depending on your answer, can you think of a reason why not all casinos exclude the same games? Could it be due to let's say increased wagering on bonuses compared to other sites?

Awesome question that!.. angler I agree with mind, can pay huge in the base game for little wager

 

[zap987]

Almost every case of excluded games is because the game lets you save up something with bonus money that you can later collect without bonus to bypass wagering requirements. Sometimes casinos throw a couple random games on the list too that don't make much sense but the same ones are almost always there for the collection reason.

 

[trancemonkey]

Like that. All slots, any gambling platform infact is there to real in a gambler, whether it be sounds, gameplay, graphics...even icons...there where they are and do what they do to make money from us. Fair enough just wish they where more honest with there dealings.

I think the industry as a whole is quite honest.. aside from the rogue casinos, which CM is set up to show!

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks again for your answer.

Another question that I've put some thought into is excluded games, when it comes to bonuses. There seem to be sites that barely exclude any slots, while others sport 10 or even more games. It makes perfect sense to me to exclude games such as Blood Suckers (RTP) and Dead or Alive (volatility).

However, when games such as Eye of the Kraken oder Lucky Angler are mentioned, which do not seem to have a very high RTP (unless I am mistaken), what is the main reason these are excluded? Is it just the potential, for example due to Sticky Wilds in Lucky Angler, is it the Free Spins/Bonus Round in Eye of the Kraken, could it also be a mix or RTP/Volatility/amount of features?

Depending on your answer, can you think of a reason why not all casinos exclude the same games? Could it be due to let's say increased wagering on bonuses compared to other sites?

A little out of my area of expertise, and maybe Captain Rizk will be able to shed more light on things if I can't... but I would imagine it is pretty much exactly what yyou say... Volatility, RTP or persistence.

Some casinos will be more worried about risk management than others...

 

[BosjeR]

Dave, you should go international and do an AMA on reddit! ;-)

 

[Captain Rizk]

There are a lot of good points raised that are somewhat interlinked so I have tried to gather them all here to see if I can make some sense of them as it maybe gives some better understanding of the daily operations that we go through.

Before doing so, there was a post earlier about this but i couldnt find it, it is worth explaining the integrations between a casino and a 3rd party game provider. Very little data about a player is shared by the casino and the games provider as it simply isnt necessary. Each player has a unique player number for use as identification and a wallet balance and theoretically this is pretty much all the 3rd party provider needs - sometimes other generic data such as age, sex and country, these are necessary for a couple of things but mainly used for statistical analysis. You might have 10 accounts at different casino's and play DoA on all of them but the 3rd party provider has absolutely no idea that 10 of the accounts belong to 1 player so they cannot be linked in any way

Thanks for your answer to my question earlier about slots going cold following a big win. It may well be perception, but it's a strong one. Also after a withdrawal at a particular casino, the casino in question seems to go cold for a while after.


Thanks again- Chris

RTP has been discussed many, many times in this thread plus how many game rounds does it need etc. Bear in mind that the RTP is specific to the game and not the player and not the casino. So Net Ent released Wild Wild West to all casino's on Thursday last week - within a few hours of release this game will reach it's RTP (within a few decimal points) for the Malta version, same for the Italian version etc. However the players RTP can be way off the theoretical RTP and the same with the RTP for that game for any specific casino. Therefore it follows that the casino cannot "go cold" after a big win because every spin is independent and the RTp is based on a pool of game rounds that is many thousands of times bigger than the number of rounds at their casino. Thats long winded but i hope it makes sense.

Thanks again for your answer.

Another question that I've put some thought into is excluded games, when it comes to bonuses. There seem to be sites that barely exclude any slots, while others sport 10 or even more games. It makes perfect sense to me to exclude games such as Blood Suckers (RTP) and Dead or Alive (volatility).

However, when games such as Eye of the Kraken oder Lucky Angler are mentioned, which do not seem to have a very high RTP (unless I am mistaken), what is the main reason these are excluded? Is it just the potential, for example due to Sticky Wilds in Lucky Angler, is it the Free Spins/Bonus Round in Eye of the Kraken, could it also be a mix or RTP/Volatility/amount of features?

Depending on your answer, can you think of a reason why not all casinos exclude the same games? Could it be due to let's say increased wagering on bonuses compared to other sites?

This is a great question. To me it doesnt make perfect sense to exclude Bloodsuckers or Dead or Alive. Bloodsuckers is low volatility but yet it still has a 97% theoretical RTP so if the wagering requirement is set correctly then most people will fail to convert bonus money to real money. With higher volatility games like Dead or Alive it still has an RTP that we know will come out in the long run so why exclude it? Yes it might be painful when someone gets a 10k or a 20k win but the vast majority of players will lose and lose it more quickly due to the volatility.

The major reason for doing this is, in my opinion, is that there is a very high percentage of players that will only ever make 1 deposit to convert a welcome bonus and they target certain games, such as DoA, to do this with. However if you build a casino and an offering that retains those players that will make more than 1 deposit then you can live with the costs from the "bonus hunters" and in my view that is the best way to combat this because we cannot stop them coming, but by doing this a casino is penalising many good long term players by removing their favourite games from a bonus. So then it comes down to a judgement call by the casino and how good they believe their retention is or will be.

The only time that this is slightly different is where you have ultra high RTP games 98%+ and in this instance we give 75% wagering contribution for these few games. If we didnt do this we would have to increase the wagering requirement for the bonus as a whole and that would be to the detriment of all players.

Awesome question that!.. angler I agree with mind, can pay huge in the base game for little wager

Please see above!

Almost every case of excluded games is because the game lets you save up something with bonus money that you can later collect without bonus to bypass wagering requirements. Sometimes casinos throw a couple random games on the list too that don't make much sense but the same ones are almost always there for the collection reason.

This is a very valid point and we cover this with terms and conditions combined with a healthy dose of understanding. The other way to go is to throw all of these games into a big pot of "restricted games" that makes the bonus terms and conditions overwhelming for the vast majority of recreational players.

 

[steveh35]

If a game is random then and every spin is individual and it is all up to the time you press the button how can certain casinos have a hot and cold policy on games.

Surely this should be banned as it is false as there is no such thing as hot or cold games.

 

[Playford7]

If a game is random then and every spin is individual and it is all up to the time you press the button how can certain casinos have a hot and cold policy on games.

Surely this should be banned as it is false as there is no such thing as hot or cold games.

Think that's down to the amount of people actually playing the games at the time.
Nothing to do with its payouts I believe

 

[aceking123]

If a game is random then and every spin is individual and it is all up to the time you press the button how can certain casinos have a hot and cold policy on games.

Surely this should be banned as it is false as there is no such thing as hot or cold games.

Not false due to the games spiking sometimes & having a very high rtp% 234% over a couple of hours & some other games having poor rtp% 48% over time , makes the conclusion of hot & cold games i would think .

 

[trancemonkey]

Not false due to the games spiking sometimes & having a very high rtp% 234% over a couple of hours & some other games having poor rtp% 48% over time , makes the conclusion of hot & cold games i would think .

Correct.. Same as you can have hot and cold numbers on roulette

 

[oldschooldm]

This is a great question. To me it doesnt make perfect sense to exclude Bloodsuckers or Dead or Alive. Bloodsuckers is low volatility but yet it still has a 97% theoretical RTP so if the wagering requirement is set correctly then most people will fail to convert bonus money to real money. With higher volatility games like Dead or Alive it still has an RTP that we know will come out in the long run so why exclude it? Yes it might be painful when someone gets a 10k or a 20k win but the vast majority of players will lose and lose it more quickly due to the volatility.

The major reason for doing this is, in my opinion, is that there is a very high percentage of players that will only ever make 1 deposit to convert a welcome bonus and they target certain games, such as DoA, to do this with. However if you build a casino and an offering that retains those players that will make more than 1 deposit then you can live with the costs from the "bonus hunters" and in my view that is the best way to combat this because we cannot stop them coming, but by doing this a casino is penalising many good long term players by removing their favourite games from a bonus. So then it comes down to a judgement call by the casino and how good they believe their retention is or will be.

The only time that this is slightly different is where you have ultra high RTP games 98%+ and in this instance we give 75% wagering contribution for these few games. If we didnt do this we would have to increase the wagering requirement for the bonus as a whole and that would be to the detriment of all players.

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I am working in the igaming industry for a little while now and the company I work for has quite a few different brands, where different games are excluded. We usually point out a few games when it comes to "using bonus funds purely to progress..." such as Tower Quest and Wishmaster, but it makes sense, to exclude more games where this is possible. I for one am very happy about the transparency provided in this thread and I hope it also helps more players/customers to understand how RNG works, and so on. Great stuff!

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you for taking the time to explain this. I am working in the igaming industry for a little while now and the company I work for has quite a few different brands, where different games are excluded. We usually point out a few games when it comes to "using bonus funds purely to progress..." such as Tower Quest and Wishmaster, but it makes sense, to exclude more games where this is possible. I for one am very happy about the outcome provided in this thread and I hope it also helps more players/customers to understand how RNG works, and so on. Great stuff!

If you now understand how slots and RNGs work a little better, can you help AnnaTS in the Fruit Warp thread because she just can't get it at all

 

[aceking123]

another Q

you make the games for IGT land based

Would you know when a online game has passed all its testing if you as a provider have a unique gaming server for all your games combined & how many back up servers would you have to have if the main server went down ? although clearly not many people see the servers albeit i can kinda imagine floors of flat boxes all air cooled running at the same time. all doing there jobs as such.

Would each provider have one unique main server & many back up servers ? & do all the working servers all come from one location or can these be changed to another location ?

 

[oldschooldm]

If you now understand how slots and RNGs work a little better, can you help AnnaTS in the Fruit Warp thread because she just can't get it at all

Hahaha... I actually read this thread in the morning conincidentially, that was really good. Maybe she'll have a peak at this thread as you have advised

 

[aceking123]

If you now understand how slots and RNGs work a little better, can you help AnnaTS in the Fruit Warp thread because she just can't get it at all

i think Annas point is that anything that is made programmed/set/fixed or bound by a % is indeed not random , because its bound by the % it may well be random within the 94% or whatever it was designed for but over time shall be programmed to meet its required design of that %, or at least this is my take on it

 

[trancemonkey]

i think Annas point is that anything that is made programmed/set/fixed or bound by a % is indeed not random , because its bound by the % it may well be random within the 94% or whatever it was designed for but over time shall be programmed to meet its required design of that %, or at least this is my take on it

But it's still random.... She doesn't understand random. Still. Even after the bag of balls explanation.

 

[chris87]

Thanks to trancemonkey & Captain Risk for replying to my points.

I do understand. However, since I got a good withdrawal at one casino on Friday, I've been battered everywhere I've played since! I guess my luck will turn again eventually.

I guess the random nature of this is that when I reconcile my playing history I'm up at some casinos and down at others, they all don't deliver a straight RTP of 98%! Overall though my total RTP across all casinos and all games is over 100%, so I guess I should count myself lucky!

Chris

 

[syntynyt]

Few day ago i played an IGT machine for the first time. On IGT site i cant found the model but is very much like CrystalDual with tall margin with couple of buttons, dual screen the main with touchscreen. When you select the game a women voice is loudly tell the selection. If you are aware of this machine can you tell what is the most high variance game from the dozen and what game is the most frequent in bonus rounds. Played kitty glitter as i knew it from online, the design is great pays without retrigger pretty bad but im willing to try it more... im fed up with wazdan roulette and novos. And totally fed up with online where i was nothing but a donator.

 

[orion]

So Net Ent released Wild Wild West to all casino's on Thursday last week - within a few hours of release this game will reach it's RTP (within a few decimal points) for the Malta version, same for the Italian version etc.

RantOn

for the not italian readers, I would like to inform that between the above two, there are ONLY 12 little insignificant % points difference.

RantOff

 

[brianmon]

If removing the option to play with less than maximum lines, makes it easier to calculate the TRTP etc, during development, which is fair enough as far as the development of new games goes.

Why then is the option being taken away from existing games when changing them to HTML5.

Supposedly the maths, reel strips and paytables haven't been changed. So they should already have been proven to attain their TRTP from the development of the original flash versions WITH the lines option.

 

[Savatage79]

Thanks for replying so much trance,good thread.

My beef right now just seems that yes random is random, but it feels like slots can swap out reels with lower percentages. I won nice last year say about close to 20k in a few months span. During that process it was highs, lows, in between etc... I could have a day that was awful but then come back that night or the next day and get some hits and it was a great running of cat and mouse almost for weeks. It never felt like I won nonstop, it never felt like I was losing nonstop, it was simply what I'd expect in terms of up and down gameplay sort of like flipping the coin you mentioned.

Since I made the withdrawals tho it's as if the "coin" is now tails on both sides lets say if tails equals losing. Because now it feels near impossible to even build a bankroll to 2 or 300 bucks, even after weeks, months. But it feels more like the reels are just of a lower percentage which doesn't seem hard to do give they're programs. If someone withdrawals 5000 bucks to have that account get reels with lower percentage hits until a percentage is regained. If say a normal reel is 8% chance, then it feels like I'm spinning now with reels that are 1% chance to do anything.

My dad won some nice payouts during the same time period with same casino, bovada. And we have both been on the exact same linear path almost, which to me just doesn't coincide with flipping a coin in which its a 50 50 chance to either lose or win some.. It's now just nonstop loses and it doesn't matter the day, time nothing. I'm sure if I flipped a coin a 1000 times every day, I'd get so many mixed varied results that it'd be endless. But I don't feel id ever flip that coin and get tails for a 100 200 or 300 flips in a row.

I'm not saying that slots aren't random, but there still seems to be a control mechanism like different reels pending money losses on their end. It's nuts tho that's all I know. I enjoy them but since I've won I can barely put in 100 bucks and turn it into 125 or 150 to just keep playing. It's just deposited and gone, as if I'm getting the same coin flip nonstop 100 200 300+ times in a row every single day.

 

[slotplayer]

Hey all

I've been a member of CasinoMeister since 2013, but to be honest i signed up and then didn't use the site (i know, i'm bad!)
However, as someone who plays slots and has working in the Fruit Machine and Slots industry over the past 20 years as a producer/coder (although i haven't coded for 10 years!), i have a real passion for the games!

Therefore, i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want Fruit Machine / Slot machine related - i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have about maths design, games production, etc. that you might want to know, and dispel (or even support) any myths you may have and want to discuss.

I also promise to be a lot more active on here from now on...

Regards
Dave

Something I noticed playing the US land based casino IGT slot CLEO II is this game goes dead late at night, typically between 2-am and 5am. Doesn't matter if its the 5 cent model or the 10 cent model. The change is so obvious it isn't even funny. You get absolute zero play, even when tossing a $100 bill in them.

It's so consistent it seems like there is some sort of built in timer to automatically change the rtp. Either that or the casino is doing it via the network.

 

[chris87]

Thanks for replying so much trance,good thread.

My beef right now just seems that yes random is random, but it feels like slots can swap out reels with lower percentages. I won nice last year say about close to 20k in a few months span. During that process it was highs, lows, in between etc... I could have a day that was awful but then come back that night or the next day and get some hits and it was a great running of cat and mouse almost for weeks. It never felt like I won nonstop, it never felt like I was losing nonstop, it was simply what I'd expect in terms of up and down gameplay sort of like flipping the coin you mentioned.

Since I made the withdrawals tho it's as if the "coin" is now tails on both sides lets say if tails equals losing. Because now it feels near impossible to even build a bankroll to 2 or 300 bucks, even after weeks, months. But it feels more like the reels are just of a lower percentage which doesn't seem hard to do give they're programs. If someone withdrawals 5000 bucks to have that account get reels with lower percentage hits until a percentage is regained. If say a normal reel is 8% chance, then it feels like I'm spinning now with reels that are 1% chance to do anything.

My dad won some nice payouts during the same time period with same casino, bovada. And we have both been on the exact same linear path almost, which to me just doesn't coincide with flipping a coin in which its a 50 50 chance to either lose or win some.. It's now just nonstop loses and it doesn't matter the day, time nothing. I'm sure if I flipped a coin a 1000 times every day, I'd get so many mixed varied results that it'd be endless. But I don't feel id ever flip that coin and get tails for a 100 200 or 300 flips in a row.

I'm not saying that slots aren't random, but there still seems to be a control mechanism like different reels pending money losses on their end. It's nuts tho that's all I know. I enjoy them but since I've won I can barely put in 100 bucks and turn it into 125 or 150 to just keep playing. It's just deposited and gone, as if I'm getting the same coin flip nonstop 100 200 300+ times in a row every single day.

You'll have noticed my posts earlier in the same vein.

Chris

 

[Simmo!]

Something I noticed playing the US land based casino IGT slot CLEO II is this game goes dead late at night, typically between 2-am and 5am.

I've played that game at that time in Vegas a number of times: gonna have to test your theory on my next trip I think

 

[trancemonkey]

Few day ago i played an IGT machine for the first time. On IGT site i cant found the model but is very much like CrystalDual with tall margin with couple of buttons, dual screen the main with touchscreen. When you select the game a women voice is loudly tell the selection. If you are aware of this machine can you tell what is the most high variance game from the dozen and what game is the most frequent in bonus rounds. Played kitty glitter as i knew it from online, the design is great pays without retrigger pretty bad but im willing to try it more... im fed up with wazdan roulette and novos. And totally fed up with online where i was nothing but a donator.

I know the machine - but I couldn't tell you which one is the most volatile. Sorry

 

[trancemonkey]

Something I noticed playing the US land based casino IGT slot CLEO II is this game goes dead late at night, typically between 2-am and 5am. Doesn't matter if its the 5 cent model or the 10 cent model. The change is so obvious it isn't even funny. You get absolute zero play, even when tossing a $100 bill in them.

It's so consistent it seems like there is some sort of built in timer to automatically change the rtp. Either that or the casino is doing it via the network.

So the operator can change the rtp of the game as they have lots of different options. Whether they do this though I can't say....