Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Simmo!]

How do you decide how many free spins to award when you're designing a game? Why choose 7, or 10, or 12, etc..?

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes you are right about the free spin...and probably abount MG too...LOL.. Viper Download software also crash in 50% of startups...and 50% sooner or later ingame.. Haha. But still I think all 100 free spins are known before they starts...the 100spins are just a grphical illusion of a lottery ticket win..just good coding thatshow each win added to balance. Otjer adds it in abig chunk at the end like NetEnt WMS and IGT..and majority of total wins are pretty even amounts...like 1000 coins or 1500 or 7500 so on.. Or 99,6 or 100,30.. That is somthing too that crossed my mind...you often get a feature when you pass an even amount like...like when uou have had millions of dead spins and have €1001 in balance and next €1,5 spin trigger a feature...noticed it many many times...and when you are about to lower the bet cause you reaching last €100 from like €500 and that last spin before €100 balance triggers it...I bet others here been there done that...

Now in trancemonkeys head.."Wow..this tourettsguy have found out everything about how we program slots!!"

The only thing i know for definite is that you definitely know nothing about slots, how they work or how they are programmed. This thread was designed to help people like you who aren't sure about things begin to understand them - instead you are full on conspiracies and whacky ideas.

There are certainly some manufacturers (as previously said) who predetermine the free spins at the point they are won - this isn't underhand, illegal or anything else... it's just the way the game was coded. There are probably far less that do it like this than don't...

 

[Steviedoo]

Who decides what the cost of a spin will be? Or how many lines it will have? Or just how big the highest prize will be?

 

[slotter999]

Trance monkey,

Do you consider to be a developer first and a mathematician second or a mathematician first and a developer second or equal in both?

The reason I ask is the leading providers appear use dedicated mathematicians to create the game maths yet I notice that you said you do both if I understood you correctly.

What do you think are the disadvantages / advantages of both approaches (dedicated mathematician / no dedicated mathematician)?

Another question I have is the highest number of actual played spins you've personally observed for a live slot over its entire lifetime?

 

[trancemonkey]

Answers inline below

1) are reels, reels ? I mean, is a reel a fixed, finite strip of non changing symbols with probability of landing on a bet line equal the frequency of that symbol on that reel ? (actually joins questions 2-3)

A reel is a reel, but not all reels are the same. There are many, many ways to do reelstrips - some are as you say: they are a list of x number of symbols that all have an equal chance of landing in view. Then you have weighted / virtual reel strips, where not every position has the same chance of landing in view. These are just two examples of how we do things - and there are many more that (due to my job, and the fact i might get sacked!) i can't say on here.

2) is it (point in question 1) required by law/regulations ?
The way that we do the control for games is always scrutinized by test labs (such as GLI or NMI or BMM). We have to satisfy them that all outcomes are possible at the start of every spin - this is an ABSOLUTE in every jurisdiction i'm aware of for random slots. They also have to be satisfied that the games are fair (a Chi Square Test can tell you a lot about whether a game is random or not - although that kind of scientific maths is NOT my area of expertise at all!)

3) why are almost all slots illegal and why are authorities not doing anything about it? I explain myself. By regulation, when betting on something that represents a physical device, like a coin with head and tails, odds must be that of a fair device (in this case 0.50 0.50). But for (video) slots, non physical things happen
- sticky wilds, walking wilds, expending wilds are non physical events.
- change of reels (Jack and the Beanstalk -> no scatter symbol appear when there is a walking wild; by far not the only example)
- on jackpot wheels, the odds of having the needle point the JP section do not correspond to a that of uniform distribution on a circle. Same for JP bonus with cards etc. (Mega Fortune-like JP wheels are little more correct)

Video slots don't fall under that category - that legislation is for things like roulette, a coin flip, baccarat, etc...
What that rule is saying is that if you do a video version of a physical game, it must be representative of the physical device and you must not change the odds or do anything weird to the rules / pays etc. Some jurisdictions will allow changes IF they changes are clearly displayed to the player.

So, to answer your question - no, i would quite happily argue all slots are legal (i can't think of any illegal ones off the top of my head )

Also, your other points - there is nothing wrong with using different reel strips in a feature / bonus game. You can even have dependencies in a feature or a bonus game, because it is all within one credit.

3) are undocumented "hot modes" legal? aka Terminator2 reels are different depending on the hot/cold mode, kind of "non physical thing".

That only happens in the feature, so it's perfectly legal... and "hot games" or "fever modes" are actually legal in some jurisdictions (paid free games, for example, where you pay for each spin with enhanced reel bands)

4) how and where should every player who ever played a video slot make a complaint about any thing I mentionned?

First, as CM says, always play at an accredited casino, and if (like Betfair) they aren't accredited here, at least make sure they have a UKGC licence if you're playing in the UK. If you're not UK based, look for a regulator you can trust (i.e not bloody Curacao). If you have a dispute, you can take it up with the UKGC or the regulator (or of course through the PAB here!)

5) [asking a personal opinion here] if developers/operators were required by law/regulation to disclose the distribution of paytable [aka math model of slot], do you think the market will change in any way ? loss/gain of global revenue, some games played more than others ?

Never gonna happen - the maths model is the most important part of IP. More important than graphics, sounds, etc... The vast, vast majority of people (except Tourettesguy) trust slots and have good experiences with them. People still don't trust roulette in bookmakers - and that isn't hiding anything!

6) Other than a drastic change in
a: regulations or
b: loss of revenue (assuming the 5% of players providing 90% of business suddenly get their gambling addiction under control/get a brain/realize how easily they can be or are cheated)
can you think of anything else that would push the industry towards more transparency from a player point of view, force casinos to implement tools to verify integrity of the game/each bet instead of trusting 3rd party paid by the casinos/game developers themselves, or disclose paytable distribution ?

Not really - if the whales suddenly started leaving in droves and it was proven that it was through a lack of trust, then maybe...
Interestingly, in Singapore, we have to display the odds of getting the top award (for example 5 wilds on a single line - not a full screen of wilds, even if they are stacked) along with some other information. We also have to display the odds for the progressives in Macau. If you're ever in either of those two places - check the paytable (help pages)...

However, we know through data that the help pages are almost NEVER accessed... so even though the data is there, no one cares about it...

Hope that helped

 

[trancemonkey]

How do you decide how many free spins to award when you're designing a game? Why choose 7, or 10, or 12, etc..?

Hahah - it was only a matter of time...

Quite often it's a guesstimate... but an educated one. And each producer has a different opinion about things like this...

For example, i might want to design a game which has lots of free spins on purpose (i.e Rhino) where you're just waiting for that 1 spin in 100 which pays big.
Or I might want to do a game where you only have 5 free spins, but each one pays well! It is quite personal to the producer - although sometimes market forces come in to play.
For example, you might be told my the market team "hey, we'd like a game with loads of free spins like the Konami games that award hundreds of free spins". Obviously then you're at the will of the market, but mostly it's up to us as producers to decide the personality of the game. I like to mix it up a bit and try different things...

 

[trancemonkey]

Who decides what the cost of a spin will be? Or how many lines it will have? Or just how big the highest prize will be?

At my current company, the cost of a spin is a factor of market forces, game design (i,e what i as a producer wants to do) and maths. Some countries like low line count games, some like high. We just try and mix it up a bit mostly - although higher line count games and bigger reel grids are becoming more popular.

How big the highest prize will be is again down to multiple factors - what do casinos want there maximum liability to be can often be a big one (although in places like Vegas, they probably don't care!). I ALWAYS try and build in a 1000x or higher win in to my games - obviously it isn't going to happen very often, but it will be there.

Luckily i get a LOT of freedom to determine most things about the game. Sometimes we have guidelines, but mostly it's "come up with an idea and make it"

 

[trancemonkey]

Trance monkey,

Do you consider to be a developer first and a mathematician second or a mathematician first and a developer second or equal in both?

The reason I ask is the leading providers appear use dedicated mathematicians to create the game maths yet I notice that you said you do both if I understood you correctly.

What do you think are the disadvantages / advantages of both approaches (dedicated mathematician / no dedicated mathematician)?

Another question I have is the highest number of actual played spins you've personally observed for a live slot over its entire lifetime?

Hey Slotter999

I started as a coder and game designer (what you'd now call a producer) at Mazooma in the UK. Then went to JPM, Impulse and finally Maygay - at all three i was a coder and games designer - i designed all the fruit machines i coded, as well as did all the maths and control for them.

Now however, and for the last 10 years or more i've mainly been a producer - which means this:

I have to come up with the game concept - theme, features, bonuses, etc...
I have to guide the artists and make sure they make the game clear, interesting, exciting, etc...
I have to guide the mathematicians, giving them guidelines on what i want - how volatile, what hit frequency, discuss with the HOW to control the game (i.e set up the structure of the game)
I have to guide the devs - make sure that they put the game together in the way it is in my head and that the timings, the flow, the story of the game is correct and works.
And on top of all that, i have to try and convince Tourettesguy i know what i'm talking about

The game is all mine - i have total responsibility for the success or failure of the game. Of course, we get a lot of feedback from other producers and people in the office, but the final call on everything is 99% mine. I have enough rope to hang myself with - and i really enjoy that.

 

[PatrickNess]

I have to guide the artists (...)
I have to guide the mathematicians (...)
I have to guide the devs (...)
And on top of all that, I (...)

Please list them in increasing salary order and give mean salary for each group )

 

[TheAddict]

Hey Slotter999

I started as a coder and game designer (what you'd now call a producer) at Mazooma in the UK. Then went to JPM, Impulse and finally Maygay - at all three i was a coder and games designer - i designed all the fruit machines i coded, as well as did all the maths and control for them.

Now however, and for the last 10 years or more i've mainly been a producer - which means this:

I have to come up with the game concept - theme, features, bonuses, etc...
I have to guide the artists and make sure they make the game clear, interesting, exciting, etc...
I have to guide the mathematicians, giving them guidelines on what i want - how volatile, what hit frequency, discuss with the HOW to control the game (i.e set up the structure of the game)
I have to guide the devs - make sure that they put the game together in the way it is in my head and that the timings, the flow, the story of the game is correct and works.
And on top of all that, i have to try and convince Tourettesguy i know what i'm talking about

The game is all mine - i have total responsibility for the success or failure of the game. Of course, we get a lot of feedback from other producers and people in the office, but the final call on everything is 99% mine. I have enough rope to hang myself with - and i really enjoy that.

Did you design roller coaster for jpm? that game was freakin amazing, still regarded by many as one of the best games ever designed. If so, were you the one who coded it to start "numbering" as a sign that the jackpot was obtainable?
Jpm were amazing during that period.. unfortunately, not so much and often quite the opposite in their latter days (hope you wasnt a part of that )

 

[Steviedoo]

Do you ever look at a competitor's slot machine and say...wow...we should have done that.....and speaking of competitors...can you look at a slot machine and see/guess/intuit the math they used?

 

[trancemonkey]

Please list them in increasing salary order and give mean salary for each group )

Hahaha - all i can say is we are all handsomely paid at this company
But obviously the producers earn a good wage as we have the a lot of responsibility...

 

[trancemonkey]

Do you ever look at a competitor's slot machine and say...wow...we should have done that.....and speaking of competitors...can you look at a slot machine and see/guess/intuit the math they used?

Absolutely we do - sometimes the opposite is also true where we look at competitors machines and think "i wouldn't have done it like that, i'd have done it like this" - and then maybe we do it the better way

And yes, when i'm playing games i like i'm always trying to dissect the maths in my head. Part of the job....

 

[interlog]

Hahah - it was only a matter of time...

Quite often it's a guesstimate... but an educated one. And each producer has a different opinion about things like this...

For example, i might want to design a game which has lots of free spins on purpose (i.e Rhino) where you're just waiting for that 1 spin in 100 which pays big.
Or I might want to do a game where you only have 5 free spins, but each one pays well! It is quite personal to the producer - although sometimes market forces come in to play.
For example, you might be told my the market team "hey, we'd like a game with loads of free spins like the Konami games that award hundreds of free spins". Obviously then you're at the will of the market, but mostly it's up to us as producers to decide the personality of the game. I like to mix it up a bit and try different things...

So is it like the result of the free spins has been pre-determined and all those many spins in Rhino is just eye candy? Each individual spin should have the same chance of hitting those 4 connecting wilds so you could theoretically have unlimited spins with 4 wilds?

That brings us to re-triggers during free games. Is it programmed that there is really no unlimited number of free spins or that it ends when the max win is achieved?

 

[trancemonkey]

Did you design roller coaster for jpm? that game was freakin amazing, still regarded by many as one of the best games ever designed. If so, were you the one who coded it to start "numbering" as a sign that the jackpot was obtainable?
Jpm were amazing during that period.. unfortunately, not so much and often quite the opposite in their latter days (hope you wasnt a part of that )

I started after RollerCoaster - although i owned one of those for many years. I was at JPM when Red Arrow was released... i was only there 6 months before Impulse poached me... loved working at that place. Great people, great games - some really odd games, admittedly, but good fun!

Numbering was in there on purpose but wasn't in there on purpose as a show (although a by-product of the code was that you could tell it was not in "mode 0" - i.e the compensator had money on it it could pay out. The numbering was in there so that if you got a reel win, it never gave you a 1 or 12, therefore being able to kill you on the hi-lo gamble and not guaranteeing a feature exchange...

Eventually they had to take it out after the operators complained....

 

[trancemonkey]

So is it like the result of the free spins has been pre-determined and all those many spins in Rhino is just eye candy? Each individual spin should have the same chance of hitting those 4 connecting wilds so you could theoretically have unlimited spins with 4 wilds?

That brings us to re-triggers during free games. Is it programmed that there is really no unlimited number of free spins or that it ends when the max win is achieved?

Oh god, not the predetermined conversation again

I would imagine that each spin DOES have the same change of picking the reel bands that are likely to award the 4 wilds, but that that chance is probably very small indeed, hence it won't happen very frequently at all!

With regards to "unlimited" free spins - this might be true in theory, but in practice you're very unlikely to go over a certain amount of free spins. Rhino is technically open ended, but i would be amazed if anyone has ever gone much over 200 spins. Also, as free spins are a feature (and therefore all within one credit) it WOULD BE ALLOWABLE to use a different set of reel bands after, say, spin 150 where the chance of a re-trigger was infinitely small.

In land-based casinos, retriggers are normally limited by how many games you can store for game recovery (which is normally a fair few hundred) - if this is the case, it will be written in the help pages in games in the US (for example).

 

[TheAddict]

Very interesting, had always wondered about the real reason for the implementation. Thanks for taking the time to explain trancemonkey.
(Also owned one to for a while).

 

[Simmo!]

Also, as free spins are a feature (and therefore all within one credit) it WOULD BE ALLOWABLE to use a different set of reel bands after, say, spin 150 where the chance of a re-trigger was infinitely small.

That answers a question I had always wondered when it comes to Novomatic slots

Without meaning to get you into trouble, do you find it quite hard to convince IGT to develop high variance games, especially as "entertainment" slots are more lucrative for the operator? Historically, although there have been a few cracking games like "Cleopatra II" (and "Bitten") and "Pharaoh's Fortune", I find most IGT slots very medium / low variance. When I see a game like Ghostbusters come out ad a Big Win is awarded at something like 6 or 8x I cry...although I understand that brand reputation plays a big part in some games.

I'd be interested to know what IGT games other than those i mentioned are HV (excluding Wagerworks stuff from the early days). As an aside, the best medium/low variance online slot from IGT IMO was Star Trek (the first one) ... had a really good balance.

 

[nikantw]

Hey Nikantw - we were just talking about your trip to Malta last year to see us the other day!!

You know, not a day passes without me thinking about that trip!
I can’t thank you enough about that! I only hope I will be able to make many more trips like that in the future, preferably with money from a big win.

 

[trancemonkey]

That answers a question I had always wondered when it comes to Novomatic slots

Without meaning to get you into trouble, do you find it quite hard to convince IGT to develop high variance games, especially as "entertainment" slots are more lucrative for the operator? Historically, although there have been a few cracking games like "Cleopatra II" (and "Bitten") and "Pharaoh's Fortune", I find most IGT slots very medium / low variance. When I see a game like Ghostbusters come out ad a Big Win is awarded at something like 6 or 8x I cry...although I understand that brand reputation plays a big part in some games.

I'd be interested to know what IGT games other than those i mentioned are HV (excluding Wagerworks stuff from the early days). As an aside, the best medium/low variance online slot from IGT IMO was Star Trek (the first one) ... had a really good balance.

I'm not in the online sector, but if you're doing an entertainer style game for Vegas you're going to do different maths than if it is a gambler game for standard casinos or Street markets. I'm sure you'll start to see better HV games as well as some MV and LV games from IGT

 

[lockinlove]

Are you familiar with playtech at all?

With their slots, if you get disconnected during a bonus, that bonus is lost and coming back into the game will not recover it.

This happened to me a few times with great blue and buffalo blitz. The casino contacted playtech with my screenshots showing I was in a bonus round and it wasnt completed. Playtech stated they have no way of knowing what the bonus paid. I personally find this hard to believe that such a large and popular software provider does not have a recovery mode built into it.

They have been around for an awfully long time, so I assume there is no recourse here? I think they should be forced by the industry to have a recovery or at least be able to trace results. I mean seriously, they do offer the most jackpot slots how can they be so irresponsible?


The above is what I was told by the casino when I wanted my winnings from the bonus round. It was 15 free spins with 10x multiplier. The casino told me there isnt anything they can do about it but awarded me a prize of 200x out of 'goodwill'

Strange?

 

[trancemonkey]

Are you familiar with playtech at all?

With their slots, if you get disconnected during a bonus, that bonus is lost and coming back into the game will not recover it.

This happened to me a few times with great blue and buffalo blitz. The casino contacted playtech with my screenshots showing I was in a bonus round and it wasnt completed. Playtech stated they have no way of knowing what the bonus paid. I personally find this hard to believe that such a large and popular software provider does not have a recovery mode built into it.

They have been around for an awfully long time, so I assume there is no recourse here? I think they should be forced by the industry to have a recovery or at least be able to trace results. I mean seriously, they do offer the most jackpot slots how can they be so irresponsible?


The above is what I was told by the casino when I wanted my winnings from the bonus round. It was 15 free spins with 10x multiplier. The casino told me there isnt anything they can do about it but awarded me a prize of 200x out of 'goodwill'

Strange?

So, for any games provider or casino operator in the UK, they must abide by the Remote Gambling and Software Technical Standards (link below). This document covers a lot of what we've discussed on this thread so far but the section referring to game recovery is section RTS 10 - interrupted gaming. My understanding is that in this document it states that games must recover to the last known state. If they can't recover on the client, then the server is supposed to play out the game and award the prize (add it to the balance).

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Simmo!]

This happened to me a few times with great blue and buffalo blitz. The casino contacted playtech with my screenshots showing I was in a bonus round and it wasnt completed. Playtech stated they have no way of knowing what the bonus paid. I personally find this hard to believe that such a large and popular software provider does not have a recovery mode built into it.

I think you were misinformed. Not quite an identical scenario but a similar event: I had an instance on Sky Casino where a massive winning spin on a Great Blue bonus went missing (later turned out to be caused by a "responsible gaming" popup popped up at exactly the same moment). After the bonus finished, not only didn't it add the win to my balance but the winning spin wasn't shown in the play logs! I took it to the casino and they took it to Playtech who found the win in their own logs and credited the money (a week later).

 

[lockinlove]

What do you think the reasoning is for them saying they couldnt track my win is then?

I appreciate the casino giving me $200 as compensation but I am not satisfied because I dont think they should just be able to say sorry its been lost nothing we can do. And the strange thing is, a player from the same casino had the same issue but playtech was able to find what they won. But not mine?

So basically what im asking is, is there any recourse on this issue. I would like to see facts that no one could see what I won. I dont like it because we all know that great blue bonus (10x and 15 spins) can be absolutely good to massive.

I know, it would be tough to pursue. I pushed the casino for a better answer but they said their hands were tied.

 

[lockinlove]

I think you were misinformed. Not quite an identical scenario but a similar event: I had an instance on Sky Casino where a massive winning spin on a Great Blue bonus went missing (later turned out to be caused by a "responsible gaming" popup popped up at exactly the same moment). After the bonus finished, not only didn't it add the win to my balance but the winning spin wasn't shown in the play logs! I took it to the casino and they took it to Playtech who found the win in their own logs and credited the money (a week later).

Really strange. This was done through the manager at slotsmillion and I was very adamant that I wanted proper results and that the answer they gave me was unacceptable. But as I said above, when I pushed they said their hands are tied as playtech cannot track my win.