Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

Hey all

I've been a member of CasinoMeister since 2013, but to be honest i signed up and then didn't use the site (i know, i'm bad!)
However, as someone who plays slots and has working in the Fruit Machine and Slots industry over the past 20 years as a producer/coder (although i haven't coded for 10 years!), i have a real passion for the games!

Therefore, i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want Fruit Machine / Slot machine related - i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have about maths design, games production, etc. that you might want to know, and dispel (or even support) any myths you may have and want to discuss.

All the opinions in this thread will be mine and mine alone and I don't speak on behalf of any company I've worked for, currently work for, or will in the future.

I also promise to be a lot more active on here from now on...

Regards
Dave

 

[dunover]

Hey all

I've been a member of CasinoMeister since 2013, but to be honest i signed up and then didn't use the site (i know, i'm bad!)
However, as someone who plays slots and has working in the Fruit Machine and Slots industry over the past 20 years as a producer/coder (although i haven't coded for 10 years!), i have a real passion for the games!

Therefore, i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want Fruit Machine / Slot machine related - i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have about maths design, games production, etc. that you might want to know, and dispel (or even support) any myths you may have and want to discuss.

I also promise to be a lot more active on here from now on...

Regards
Dave

OK, here's a common one. Is there 100% guaranteed NO mechanism that affects the outcomes when stakes are raised or when big wins have just occurred? There have been numerous observations on here about various slots where it's pretty indisputable (Second Strike after a few wins and Vikings Go Berserk when near the main cumulative Ragnok spins) that the game changes, almost like the RNG pool of values has been amended in a compensatory way.

 

[lotusch]

Hey all

I've been a member of CasinoMeister since 2013, but to be honest i signed up and then didn't use the site (i know, i'm bad!)
However, as someone who plays slots and has working in the Fruit Machine and Slots industry over the past 20 years as a producer/coder (although i haven't coded for 10 years!), i have a real passion for the games!

Therefore, i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want Fruit Machine / Slot machine related - i'll do my best to answer any questions you might have about maths design, games production, etc. that you might want to know, and dispel (or even support) any myths you may have and want to discuss.

I also promise to be a lot more active on here from now on...

Regards
Dave

Oh man,where should I start!

But nice to have you here as you probably have seen the hundreds of discussions about RTP - TRTP - Rigged Slots etc etc.
Nice if you'd chime in from time to time to give your opinion and views.

Much appreciated man!


My first one: Cleopatra Plus is faulty coded and IGT sucks bigtime...about 4k down on this vile machine...Where is my chunk of the TRTP%..
Very very very hard to trigger the Free Spins and chances of a big win in them are actually small to none.

So what exactly is TRTP? What does it do for me if I am pounding deposit after deposit in to the same slot?

 

[Jono777]

I'll start the ball rolling....(I also feel this thread may become quite popular if your genuine (which FTR I believe you are )

When an online slot is available to the casino (not the players 'end') are their various settings within the software/program/code which the individual casino(s) can enable/disable etc.

I'll provide a few examples and its not just about RTP lol

* Enable / disable quickspin - Start/Stop
* Set Max coin size
* Set RTP (although within a specific parameter EG: 85-95%)
* Set max 'x' EG: set to pay no more than 5,000x
((The latter 2 I believe exist to protect smaller businesses / operations))

Cheers!

 

[trancemonkey]

OK, here's a common one. Is there 100% guaranteed NO mechanism that affects the outcomes when stakes are raised or when big wins have just occurred? There have been numerous observations on here about various slots where it's pretty indisputable (Second Strike after a few wins and Vikings Go Berserk when near the main cumulative Ragnok spins) that the game changes, almost like the RNG pool of values has been amended in a compensatory way.

A great first question...

First let me say I can only speak for the companies that a) i've worked for and b) am very familiar with...

I can tell you, hand on heart, that Quick Spin wouldn't do anything like that - i know those guys very well having worked alongside them for two years. As for Yggdrasil - as per my other post, if they ARE doing that then the first port of call would be writing to them with the evidence and seeing what they say, and then failing that, going to the gambling commission.

On a general point about this though - why would we, as producers, need or want to do that? Random games behave in ways that absolutely appear to be rigged - but then we are psychologically more likely to remember the times where this happens in a negative way than in a positive way - for example, i can guarantee you've bet up (maybe after a big win) and then got a feature quickly and had another. But because this wasn't a bad thing, you don't recall it.

When i'm test playing my own games, i could swear blind at times it knows i've just had a big win.
Whenever i'm sat in front of Montezuma, or Rhino, and i'm doing ok and i say to myself "One more feature and i'll stop", why is THAT the feature that takes 400 games to achieve!

I'm sure some will still be sceptical, and that's fine - but i can honestly tell you that in RMG, we (the companies i know well) don't rig games. There is no point. Random can feel rigged enough as it is - if we set up a game to run at 94%, it's going to hit that RTP over time - so why rig it positively or negatively. Compensated games are allowed in the UK B3 market (as well as the Cat D and C and B4 machines) and some manufacturers (such as Project Coin and old Barcrest games) did use compensation - but it's more the exception than the rule.

TL;DR - No, all the companies i know about don't rig games.

 

[trancemonkey]

Oh man,where should I start!

But nice to have you here as you probably have seen the hundreds of discussions about RTP - TRTP - Rigged Slots etc etc.
Nice if you'd chime in from time to time to give your opinion and views.

Much appreciated man!


My first one: Cleopatra Plus is faulty coded and IGT sucks bigtime...about 4k down on this vile machine...Where is my chunk of the TRTP%..
Very very very hard to trigger the Free Spins and chances of a big win in them are actually small to none.

So what exactly is TRTP? What does it do for me if I am pounding deposit after deposit in to the same slot?

Hey lotusch - can you explain why you say it's faulty coded?

I personally am not a fan of the game - but I guess it's done well for us; the social gaming features in it help a lot with engagement and retention.

In terms of TRTP - check the help pages. It will be stated there. Of course, the TRTP is calculated over the lifecycle of the game. For games with reel bands, then it would be a factor of all the positions on the reels (assuming the reels aren't weighted) - so if you have 5 reels, each with a 64 stop reel band, then the theoretical RTP is worked out over 1,073,741,824 games.

Does that help?

 

[trancemonkey]

I'll start the ball rolling....(I also feel this thread may become quite popular if your genuine (which FTR I believe you are )

When an online slot is available to the casino (not the players 'end') are their various settings within the software/program/code which the individual casino(s) can enable/disable etc.

I'll provide a few examples and its not just about RTP lol

* Enable / disable quickspin - Start/Stop
* Set Max coin size
* Set RTP (although within a specific parameter EG: 85-95%)
* Set max 'x' EG: set to pay no more than 5,000x
((The latter 2 I believe exist to protect smaller businesses / operations))

Cheers!

Each provider (and by that i mean RGS [remote gaming server] provider) can do things a little differently.
However, you're right for the most part - operators will be able to set max bet / max coin size dependent on the required max liability - some casino's don't want a max bet of £200 on a game like Rhino. RTP is a strange one - for the most part, the RTP is set by the slots provider and is static - we only used to do one RTP at Inspired and at previous companies i've worked out. Some providers offer multiple RTP's, but they tend to be in-house providers, although that's not 100% the case.
Always check the RTP before you play - some sites DO run lower than others.

Dave

 

[lockinlove]

A great first question...

First let me say I can only speak for the companies that a) i've worked for and b) am very familiar with...

I can tell you, hand on heart, that Quick Spin wouldn't do anything like that - i know those guys very well having worked alongside them for two years. As for Yggdrasil - as per my other post, if they ARE doing that then the first port of call would be writing to them with the evidence and seeing what they say, and then failing that, going to the gambling commission.

On a general point about this though - why would we, as producers, need or want to do that? Random games behave in ways that absolutely appear to be rigged - but then we are psychologically more likely to remember the times where this happens in a negative way than in a positive way - for example, i can guarantee you've bet up (maybe after a big win) and then got a feature quickly and had another. But because this wasn't a bad thing, you don't recall it.

When i'm test playing my own games, i could swear blind at times it knows i've just had a big win.
Whenever i'm sat in front of Montezuma, or Rhino, and i'm doing ok and i say to myself "One more feature and i'll stop", why is THAT the feature that takes 400 games to achieve!

I'm sure some will still be sceptical, and that's fine - but i can honestly tell you that in RMG, we (the companies i know well) don't rig games. There is no point. Random can feel rigged enough as it is - if we set up a game to run at 94%, it's going to hit that RTP over time - so why rig it positively or negatively. Compensated games are allowed in the UK B3 market (as well as the Cat D and C and B4 machines) and some manufacturers (such as Project Coin and old Barcrest games) did use compensation - but it's more the exception than the rule.

TL;DR - No, all the companies i know about don't rig games.

hey so glad you did this.

I was actually going to PM you or quote you in a thread and ask you some quesitons but didnt want to derail or bother you. Thanks alot this is great.

I am the one thats been studying the vikings go berserk slot. I have sent them an email with my findings. That was 12 days ago and I did not get a response.

Is the pick bonuses predetermined? For example the chest feature on vikings go berserk. I feel like they are so just curious.

 

[dunover]

Hey lotusch - i actually now work for IGT (since August last year) although i'm not in the online side of the business. Can you explain why you say it's faulty coded?

I don't actually like the game - i just know it's done well for us; the social gaming features in it help a lot with engagement and retention.

In terms of TRTP - check the help pages. It will be stated there. Of course, the TRTP is calculated over the lifecycle of the game. For games with reel bands, then it would be a factor of all the positions on the reels (assuming the reels aren't weighted) - so if you have 5 reels, each with a 64 stop reel band, then the theoretical RTP is worked out over 1,073,741,824 games.

For more complex games, we would tend to run about 10Bn games to get the final RTP - but you're talking about down to fractions of a %. Most of the time, you're getting within 0.1% much much faster than that.

Does that help?

I know what you're saying about player psychology, and how they 'see' patterns. I'm past that, trust me! But it's impossible for a game to be truly random surely, when cumulative events are involved, there has to be a level of compensation! Riggdrasil's VGB slot is 100% producing a certain period of gameplay before triggering Ragnarok - I immediately noticed this when producing the video review, Lockinlove played it for ages as have other players an they all concur with this. It's not a coincidence, it's happening!

That brings me to another Q - unlike other developers, IGT list RTP in ranges without telling us why, i.e. 92.14-96.08% over the long term.

4% is a pretty big deviation over the long term!

It's obvious why Bastardcrest do it on Superbet slots, i.e. bigger bets for 98% and base bets for 94% but why IGT? Is it to do with bet levels, i.e. they can affect RTP?

 

[trancemonkey]

That brings me to another Q - unlike other developers, IGT list RTP in ranges without telling us why, i.e. 92.14-96.08% over the long term.

4% is a pretty big deviation over the long term!

It's obvious why Bastardcrest do it on Superbet slots, i.e. bigger bets for 98% and base bets for 94% but why IGT? Is it to do with bet levels, i.e. they can affect RTP?

Good point - let me try and find out this week and i'll get back to you on that...
I think it's because the RTP increases with some of the top features open - IIRC, the it does state somewhere how to get the best return....

Leave it with me

 

[lotusch]

Hey lotusch - i actually now work for IGT (since August last year) although i'm not in the online side of the business. Can you explain why you say it's faulty coded?

I don't actually like the game - i just know it's done well for us; the social gaming features in it help a lot with engagement and retention.

In terms of TRTP - check the help pages. It will be stated there. Of course, the TRTP is calculated over the lifecycle of the game. For games with reel bands, then it would be a factor of all the positions on the reels (assuming the reels aren't weighted) - so if you have 5 reels, each with a 64 stop reel band, then the theoretical RTP is worked out over 1,073,741,824 games.

For more complex games, we would tend to run about 10Bn games to get the final RTP - but you're talking about down to fractions of a %. Most of the time, you're getting within 0.1% much much faster than that.

Does that help?

The faulty coded thing was more a sarcastic undertone hahaha...
But this game has been so bad for me that it just feels it is not performing right...

I have played this game up to €6.00 a spin when I was already so far behind on it...
It just does not pay at all except a few minor 100-120x stake wins...

I play online for many years now and I have been patient with slots and at a certain point I nearly always get that compensating big win...Especially on MGS and Netent slots it seems to work that way when you are behind...

Cleo Plus,dunno I keep going back to it from time to time to try it again hoping of that elusive win...
The super spins (In FS Mode) don't mean anything as the "stacked" wilds seem not to be on the reels...
Never had a hit on the super spins nor on the last spin with a big multiplier...

I am sure this game is popular but it has put me off IGT all together unfortunately.
Same with Ygdrassil, cannot stand their slots however their sounds and graphics are stunning but they just don't feel right to me.

 

[trancemonkey]

hey so glad you did this.

I was actually going to PM you or quote you in a thread and ask you some quesitons but didnt want to derail or bother you. Thanks alot this is great.

I am the one thats been studying the vikings go berserk slot. I have sent them an email with my findings. That was 12 days ago and I did not get a response.

Is the pick bonuses predetermined? For example the chest feature on vikings go berserk. I feel like they are so just curious.

Sometimes. From a game recovery point of view, it is better if the outcome of a pick feature to be totally determined before the player goes anywhere near it.
The only time you could let be completely random is if all the outcomes are evenly weighted - i.e you have the same chance of picking each one - but this is 99.5% never the case. For example, Secrets of the Stones - i'd be 99.9% sure that it makes no difference which stones you pick. If someone from NetEnt told me otherwise, i'd be surprised.

 

[dunover]

Hey lotusch - i actually now work for IGT (since August last year) although i'm not in the online side of the business. Can you explain why you say it's faulty coded?

I don't actually like the game - i just know it's done well for us; the social gaming features in it help a lot with engagement and retention.

In terms of TRTP - check the help pages. It will be stated there. Of course, the TRTP is calculated over the lifecycle of the game. For games with reel bands, then it would be a factor of all the positions on the reels (assuming the reels aren't weighted) - so if you have 5 reels, each with a 64 stop reel band, then the theoretical RTP is worked out over 1,073,741,824 games.For more complex games, we would tend to run about 10Bn games to get the final RTP - but you're talking about down to fractions of a %. Most of the time, you're getting within 0.1% much much faster than that.

Does that help?

Not strictly true - that assumes only ONE payline, but if you have 20 you'll reach the expected value as near as within 1/20th. of the 1.073bn. spins.

 

[dunover]

Good point - let me try and find out this week and i'll get back to you on that...
I think it's because the RTP increases with some of the top features open - IIRC, the it does state somewhere how to get the best return....
Leave it with me

Yes, it does on games like Cleo Plus but not on games with standard free games with no cumulative effect which are the same from spin 1, i.e. Ghostbusters Triple Slime that I just reviewed. Yet it still has a range!

 

[trancemonkey]

I know what you're saying about player psychology, and how they 'see' patterns. I'm past that, trust me! But it's impossible for a game to be truly random surely, when cumulative events are involved, there has to be a level of compensation! Riggdrasil's VGB slot is 100% producing a certain period of gameplay before triggering Ragnarok - I immediately noticed this when producing the video review, Lockinlove played it for ages as have other players an they all concur with this. It's not a coincidence, it's happening!

About games being truly random - yes some games don't return the same RTP on every spin. For example, on Robin Hood, Sifting Riches (NetEnt) you can't necessarily get the feature on ever spin because you need to collect the bags - bug i would imagine (i'd stake my life on it) that the chance of a money bag dropping in on a reel doesn't change, regardless of how many you have.

Your comment about Yggdrasil - as i stated in the other thread, if they are doing this (which I sincerely doubt), it would be illegal as far as i'm concerned. You are not allowed to alter the game based on whether or not you've accumulated anything - that would be compensation. Accumulating is fine as long as you don't change the chance of things happening based on what you've accumulated.

Does that help?

 

[trancemonkey]

Not strictly true - that assumes only ONE payline, but if you have 20 you'll reach the expected value as near as within 1/20th. of the 1.073bn. spins.

Correct - but we always calculate based on a single payline for games that use non-weighted reel-strips and don't need simulations. You just Monte Carlo the reels...

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes, it does on games like Cleo Plus but not on games with standard free games with no cumulative effect which are the same from spin 1, i.e. Ghostbusters Triple Slime that I just reviewed. Yet it still has a range!

Odd - let me follow this up this week. Please pester me about it later this week if i haven't given you an answer! I've just skyped someone who should know

 

[lockinlove]

Yes - almost always. From a game recovery point of view, it is better if the outcome of a pick feature to be totally determined before the player goes anywhere near it.
The only time you could let be completely random is if all the outcomes are evenly weighted - i.e you have the same chance of picking each one - but this is 99.5% never the case. For example, Secrets of the Stones - i'd be 99.9% sure that it makes no difference which stones you pick. If someone from NetEnt told me otherwise, i'd be VERY shocked.

Thanks for the answer. I pretty much figured that anyways.


You made a comment on why would a company rig their slots a certain way. If a casino has better returns and play time in terms of popularity across a provider (lets use yggdrasil) wouldnt that favor the slot provider knowing the casino wont be so tough to negotiate contracts with?

Im just grabbing at things to understand why they would do it too. From what ive found from vikings go berserk there is no question in my mind that around the 85% mark of going berserk the rtp changes dramatically. I usually run the game in 3 tabs a day on turbo mode and have been tracking the results. And I cannot recall a single time where this has not happened. It actually just happened to me minutes ago as I was close with the blue character and it took some 500 spins to get her berserk and over those spins my rtp being around 30%. This is what it does incredibly often time and time again.

I sent the data to yggdrasil and there was simply zero acknowledgement from them. I was planning on sending a follow up email on Monday.


I also feel as though a slot pays differently when raising bets on certain providers. Is it possible something is built in to protect the casinos from going broke from high rollers? yeah it sounds tin foil hattish. But how many times ive done $9-$25 spins with just awful results leads me to question it. I have noticed this with Microgaming.

There was a high roller posting some screenshots in the winner section and when someone questioned him about a few things one of their responses was "you dont realize how hard it is to hit a bonus when betting high"

Just my thoughts!

 

[Jono777]

Great thread thus far

How could I forget to ask the one thing I've been banging on about for bloody years lol

"Are online slots more like land based slots (B3's etc) than we realise or in some cases understand"

I've firmly believed for a very long time that the basics and bones of the programming has to be very similar, just on a larger scale to cope with "spin volume"

We can talk about compensated and random but what I'm getting at (geez this is hard to properly explain in text) is that nothing is truly random and land based slots have pay/eat cycles which I think is exactly how online stuff works.

BTW any decent land based AWP / B3 "emptiers" about, not benefited from one for yonks

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks for the answer. I pretty much figured that anyways.


You made a comment on why would a company rig their slots a certain way. If a casino has better returns and play time in terms of popularity across a provider (lets use yggdrasil) wouldnt that favor the slot provider knowing the casino wont be so tough to negotiate contracts with?

As i said, i can only go on the companies i've worked for and that i know of - and that's pretty much all the big ones you'll know... this wouldn't happen. I certainly can't categorially state it doesn't with some of the smaller providers, but having worked at companies that run RGS systems, we've never had anyone do this or even ask about doing it.

Re: Yggdrasil - let's not keep going over this. My suggestion would be to send a follow up email stating that if you don't get a good enough response from them explaining what is happening, you will be forced to go to the UKGC with your results.

I would be VERY surprised if, if what they are doing is true, it's allowed... but also I would be amazed if they are doing anything wrong.

 

[lotusch]

This is going to be a very popular thread.
Popcorn and a cold beer ready.

Some great posts already and again, nice to see someone from the "inside" sharing some of his knowledge to us.

Much appreciated!

And lockinlove - Keep us posted about the Ygdrassil case as I am very interested to see how that ends and which response you will be getting if you ever get one because I never got a single response from them when I was asking some questions about some of their slots.

 

[trancemonkey]

Great thread thus far

How could I forget to ask the one thing I've been banging on about for bloody years lol

"Are online slots more like land based slots (B3's etc) than we realise or in some cases understand"

I've firmly believed for a very long time that the basics and bones of the programming has to be very similar, just on a larger scale to cope with "spin volume"

We can talk about compensated and random but what I'm getting at (geez this is hard to properly explain in text) is that nothing is truly random and land based slots have pay/eat cycles which I think is exactly how online stuff works.

BTW any decent land based AWP / B3 "emptiers" about, not benefited from one for yonks

Emptiers - none recently.

Re: B3 vs Online - not entirely sure what you mean... and no nothing is TRULY random... but most companies use the Mersenne-Twister RNG, which is Nevada compliant and about as random as you can get (it's called pseudo-random). You'll have to be more specific about what you're asking i'm afraid

 

[lockinlove]

This is going to be a very popular thread.
Popcorn and a cold beer ready.

Some great posts already and again, nice to see someone from the "inside" sharing some of his knowledge to us.

Much appreciated!

And lockinlove - Keep us posted about the Ygdrassil case as I am very interested to see how that ends and which response you will be getting if you ever get one because I never got a single response from them when I was asking some questions about some of their slots.

I will! Im probably going to stop doing the tracking. Im over 300,000 spins. And im bored as hell from it. Mind you, I dont sit there and stare at it, just jot down the info I need. But still. Seems like a waste of time now. Unless the gaming commission requires more data than 300,000 spins. I was trying to test out larger bet returns on that slot but I gave up and it was too much work between the two. Plus it probably wouldnt result in much.

I spoke to one of the head people at slotsmillions when they were in talks with yggdrasil and I found out some pretty interesting stuff on how that side of things work. They basically negotiate back and forth until they agree on a set price. Yggdrasil would provide data why they feel their price is right and same with the other side. Yeah thats basic knowledge obviously but thats why I suggested maybe thats the reason why a provider would rig their slots a certain way. The more its played and is popular the better the pricing for yggdrasil.

I dont want to get too carried away with my thoughts here but I do find it quite interesting.

I wasnt even accusing them of anything, I was asking questions and showing my findings and asking more questions. But I guess they dont care to respond. So I will chase it up and if no response Ill go to the gaming commission and ask them some questions. And if I feel like there is a case, Ill send them my findings and see what they say!

 

[aceking123]

Question for you & welcome to the forum btw )

Im going purely on game play here & many many years of it . is there a different access point or server from higher bets being placed on a completely different server ,as to standard servers , meaning if you bets passes £9 quid onwards this triggers you to another gaming server for high rollers as such ?

MG games as already pointed out have a unique Knack of going completely against the grain when moving bets about & another thing noticed is when changes bets on mg games there is a very slight pause before spin , this includes playing 20 line then dropping to a single line. Always does this when increasing bets value of over £6 + .

 

[trancemonkey]

Question for you & welcome to the forum btw )

Im going purely on game play here & many many years of it . is there a different access point or server from higher bets being placed on a completely different server ,as to standard servers , meaning if you bets passes £9 quid onwards this triggers you to another gaming server for high rollers as such ?

MG games as already pointed out have a unique Knack of going completely against the grain when moving bets about & another thing noticed is when changes bets on mg games there is a very slight pause before spin , this includes playing 20 line then dropping to a single line. Always does this when increasing bets value of over £6 + .

In my experience, no this is not something that i've ever come across. I've never worked for MG, so i can't comment directly on their games, but again, i wouldn't see the point in doing this. Firstly, for every set of maths a company does, it has to be tested and homologated (approved by GLI / NMI / some test lab) if they are going in to a regulated environment - i'm sure some shitty little sites don't care about this, but if it's UKGC registered, they will have to be approved. If you're going to change the maths by bet, there is a time and cost implication. Of course, this isn't a barrier to doing it, but i would be very surprised if it were the case.

Secondly, if a casino wants to protect themselves against someone winning too much and the payout being too high (max liability as we call it) then they would just simply reduce the max bet so that the max liability was something they would be happy with.



On a side note - it's so strange seeing these questions, because when i started working in online slots, i had exactly the same kind of questions as you guys do... and would i have trusted some guy on a forum telling me i was wrong? Dunno - but now i'm on this side of the fence talking to you guys, i could see exactly why you wouldn't believe me. Experiences teach us so much - and if you believe in something very strongly, it's hard to stop believing it just because someone tells you you're wrong...


Keep them coming