Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

Still trying to get my head around how an essentially fixed payout over time can be described as random.

Pseudorandom sounds more romantic than fixed or rigged I guess?

Read my post in this thread about random.... that explains it...

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks for the long replay Trancemonkey, but I cant agree with answer 1 and 2...

[sic]

Another thing... RTG casinos...download version...a few years ago and back to beginning of RTG Real series slots...Cleopatra(first game) you could follow the symbols on the reels as they slowed down and may trigger free spins or feature...very exciting and if you knew the game you could see depending of where the reel started to slow down if the last scatter would land on screen trigger feature...loved the excitment...but nowadays its not possible, spinning reels are just fake graphic illution...symbols landing on screen has nothing to do with the slow spinning reel...and you dont know if youre even close to hit the triggering scatter...I think its quite boring.... What did that change, you know?

You're allowed to disagree - that's the joy of this thread. However, unless you can statistically prove that what you're saying is true, i will respectfully disagree with you. Forgive me if this sounds condescending - it's not meant that way - but you are coming at this from a perception / experience point of view. I totally get that - i'd have said the same before i came to "this side" of the games. However, i'm coming at it from the point of view of knowledge. I will caveat that by saying i can not be 100% sure that some providers do not do some underhand things BUT I would stake my life on the fact that ALL the major providers do not do this. It's more than their licence is worth - their licence is their business. Without it they have no business... it's just not worth doing anything like that.

Also, there's just no point. For example - you say the casino has just made $100 off you right? So they can afford to loosen the slot up - right? Wrong - the game has an RTP. When you lose the $100, someone else is winning $97 (assuming a 97% RTP). I know that's simplistic, but it's fact. If they then "loosen" it up for you, and the other player withdraws his $97 and then you withdraw your money that this new "loose" slot has given you, the casino lose.

Anyway - in my experience i don't know of any slots provider that does this, and as the casinos have no control over the slot content (unless it was developed in house - then there is a chance they could) i'm afraid your experience is just an experience, and unlikely to be fact.

Sorry for disagreeing - but hey, that's what this thread is for. I don't expect everyone to believe me, but some peoples minds are not for changing, and i'm sure there will be some who just think "more bullshit from someone in the industry - lying bastards" - and that's fine... i was there once!

 

[Deeplay]

You're allowed to disagree - that's the joy of this thread. However, unless you can statistically prove that what you're saying is true, i will respectfully disagree with you. Forgive me if this sounds condescending - it's not meant that way - but you are coming at this from a perception / experience point of view. I totally get that - i'd have said the same before i came to "this side" of the games. However, i'm coming at it from the point of view of knowledge. I will caveat that by saying i can not be 100% sure that some providers do not do some underhand things BUT I would stake my life on the fact that ALL the major providers do not do this. It's more than their licence is worth - their licence is their business. Without it they have no business... it's just not worth doing anything like that.

Also, there's just no point. For example - you say the casino has just made $100 off you right? So they can afford to loosen the slot up - right? Wrong - the game has an RTP. When you lose the $100, someone else is winning $97 (assuming a 97% RTP). I know that's simplistic, but it's fact. If they then "loosen" it up for you, and the other player withdraws his $97 and then you withdraw your money that this new "loose" slot has given you, the casino lose.

Anyway - in my experience i don't know of any slots provider that does this, and as the casinos have no control over the slot content (unless it was developed in house - then there is a chance they could) i'm afraid your experience is just an experience, and unlikely to be fact.

Sorry for disagreeing - but hey, that's what this thread is for. I don't expect everyone to believe me, but some peoples minds are not for changing, and i'm sure there will be some who just think "more bullshit from someone in the industry - lying bastards" - and that's fine... i was there once!

Think this sums up the whole question of is it rigged or not. Said very well. I have never really personally doubted the integrity of the games from reputable providors. And have played a good few years online now. Some real highs some lows (lots of lows in fact ) but over all when I look back its a pretty fair game. And I think if anyone goes into this "vice" with the hopes of making a living they need to find another job. In the end unless we win the mega Moohla JP we are all doomed to loose in the long run. But if loosing can be made fun it can hurt less.

I have always felt there is no need to manipulate any game as the maths model in the end takes care of that. But some people just dont wanna believe. And the other week at the CM meeting in London hearing it from the game reps themselves made so much sense. Think this is quickly becoming the thread of the New Year

 

[Tourettesguy]

The license is another thing...how can they lose a license? How can a software be controlled? The developer ofcoarse have a "testing mode" which the controllant are shown...where everything shines... LOL.. No periods of 4000 half dead spins without bonus features
Without casinos there would not be any licenses to get payed for...who needs who?
I dont belive anything is random...slots is same as lottery ofcoarse and your own account is separated from any other account..you fight your own average payout %. Which will land at around 96% sooner or later. I just have to face it and hope for that little jump and withdraw and get the hell out and close account. But its hard to close account after a big win..

 

[Playford7]

Maths models and rtp..all providers won't lie and are fair as they have no need to lie. Great I accept that. But as I've said in a previous post, where there is money there is corruption, that's the world over. Nothing will change that...ever.
I'm not saying at all a provider would even consider such a ghastly underhand tactic, but there is always no that possibility.

 

[interlog]

I get it often when I play during my stream, and get suggestions if you do such and such on a slot it will give the bonus, it will pay.

Surely, that being the case, I would say the slot is well and truly broke?

Do you agree or disagree? Can slots give tell tale signs it is about to do something?

 

[Playford7]

I get it often when I play during my stream, and get suggestions if you do such and such on a slot it will give the bonus, it will pay.

Surely, that being the case, I would say the slot is well and truly broke?

Do you agree or disagree? Can slots give tell tale signs it is about to do something?

100% not. That's just pie in the sky. Otherwise everyone would be on said slot where the bonus was guarenteed. It happens randomly. Could be 3 scatters in 10 spins or zero in 1000....

 

[paul7388]

I get it often when I play during my stream, and get suggestions if you do such and such on a slot it will give the bonus, it will pay.

Surely, that being the case, I would say the slot is well and truly broke?

Do you agree or disagree? Can slots give tell tale signs it is about to do something?

Well put it this way. The fact that you are posting and asking that question provides your answer. If you could tell for definite and do something to make it pay then you would have made a fortune and would not be on here asking.

Same as all the experts that watch your stream. If they knew when slots would pay features or ways to make slots pay then they would be gambling away with their own money not sitting watching streams giving advice.

 

[Ork]

Play Money

Do spins in demo mode affect overall payouts of the real money equivalent?
For example does somebody winning big(or losing big) on a slot with play money count towards the rtp of the same real money slot or are they run off different servers?

 

[Playford7]

Well put it this way. The fact that you are posting and asking that question provides your answer. If you could tell for definite and do something to make it pay then you would have made a fortune and would not be on here asking.

Same as all the experts that watch your stream. If they knew when slots would pay features or ways to make slots pay then they would be gambling away with their own money not sitting watching streams giving advice.

I must give the finest of high 5's to that answer. That is all.

 

[interlog]

Well put it this way. The fact that you are posting and asking that question provides your answer. If you could tell for definite and do something to make it pay then you would have made a fortune and would not be on here asking.

Same as all the experts that watch your stream. If they knew when slots would pay features or ways to make slots pay then they would be gambling away with their own money not sitting watching streams giving advice.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't believe them and say so on my streams. I may give it a go once in a while to see what happens.

But as this is a topic where the OP answers, I want to hear his (I guess predictable) answer.

 

[Janek12]

I will caveat that by saying i can not be 100% sure that some providers do not do some underhand things BUT I would stake my life on the fact that ALL the major providers do not do this. It's more than their licence is worth - their licence is their business. Without it they have no business... it's just not worth doing anything like that.

Unfortunately, I think you lost the bet - see the Frankenstein slot fiasco from NetEnt - one of the most reputable software providers (if not THE most reputable one).

The thing is - the slots are created by people and the companies are run people... And due to this "human factor" there is always room for shady and underhand things.

Granted, the Frankenstein slot fiasco (presumably, the slot paid after a certain combination of keys on the keyboard was pressed; as far as I know, NetEnt never came clean on what actually was the problem with the slot) was dealt with eventually - but only after several years, unless I am mistaken in the timeline.

 

[SpinUk]

What i meant was when it was switched to the html4 format. The game play seemed to have changed since then. Hope that makes sense )

100% the maths was changed on Twinspin to smooth the variance on the game. When you play now the balance hangs around and seems to last longer but the big wins are more remote. The RTP will remain the same, but the game will play differently.

On DOA its the same but more pronounced. Sure, you can still get the wild lines, but they are fewer and farer between, whilst the majority of bonus rounds appear to pay marginally more (50x stake much more common as opposed to previous 10-20x).

Certainly these games remain capable of producing the previous big wins, but the alteration means that these are even rarer than they were before as the RTP has been "fleshed out" with the increased abundance of medium wins at the expense of the mega wins.

Why does this matter?

Im sure from a developer point of view, then it will be argued that it is what is popular with players, and they are feeding this demand. I don't buy it though.

From a casino point of view, by lowering the slot variance slot then the player is playing for longer, but crucially, the bonus beating and withdrawal inducing mega wins are now rarer -remarkably so - meaning that despite the RTP remaining the same the actually REAL net loss to the casino - the point where the player will actually hit the withdraw button - has been reduced.

So the Casino bottom line is increased and risk is reduced, even though the house edge has remained the same.

This fact has also driven the recent releases from the major software houses like Netent (from Warlords and pretty much everything in the last year or so) releasing slots where the so called "big wins" are more around the 150x stake mark compared to 500x stake on the previous releases. MG are the same.

 

[Janek12]

From a casino point of view, by lowering the slot variance slot then the player is playing for longer, but crucially, the bonus beating and withdrawal inducing mega wins are now rarer -remarkably so - meaning that despite the RTP remaining the same the actually REAL net loss to the casino - the point where the player will actually hit the withdraw button - has been reduced.

So the Casino bottom line is increased and risk is reduced, even though the house edge has remained the same.

This fact has also driven the recent releases from the major software houses like Netent (from Warlords and pretty much everything in the last year or so) releasing slots where the so called "big wins" are more around the 150x stake mark compared to 500x stake on the previous releases. MG are the same.

I know I have pointed out this before but it bears repeating IMO: I believe the above is also the reason why almost none (or actually none, as far as I know) of the new slots allow for changing the number of lines (because reducing the number of lines played greatly increases variance). And I believe it is also why NetEnt even removed this option from some of the older slots...

 

[mclee321]

Why don't we keep the thread to asking Trancemonkey the questions, and leaving out everyone's endlessly boring, half-cocked, unproven theory's and personal vendettas regarding slots.

It's immensely rare for a slot developer to open up and enlighten us, I'd hate for the bullshit to drive him off.

Thanks Trancemonkey!

 

[Deeplay]

Why don't we keep the thread to asking Tracemonkey the questions, and leaving out everyone's endlessly boring, half-cocked, unproven theory's and personal vendettas regarding slots.

It's immensely rare for a slot developer to open up and enlighten us, I'd hate for the bullshit to drive him off.

Thanks Tracemonkey!

Agree 100% the conspiracy theories are boring and without any basis of fact. Its great Tracemonkey has offered to answer straight up questions and would be good to see this thread back on topic.

 

[trancemonkey]

Unfortunately, I think you lost the bet - see the Frankenstein slot fiasco from NetEnt - one of the most reputable software providers (if not THE most reputable one).

The thing is - the slots are created by people and the companies are run people... And due to this "human factor" there is always room for shady and underhand things.

Granted, the Frankenstein slot fiasco (presumably, the slot paid after a certain combination of keys on the keyboard was pressed; as far as I know, NetEnt never came clean on what actually was the problem with the slot) was dealt with eventually - but only after several years, unless I am mistaken in the timeline.

Faults are very different to purposely to making the game behave in a dodgy way. I've had slots pulled (taken off all sitez) because of faults before. The faults weren't on purpose but they were missed by test and NMI. Does that mean we were dodgy... of course not.

I don't know about Frankenstein but it sounds like some debug / dev command was left in by accident...

 

[trancemonkey]

The license is another thing...how can they lose a license? How can a software be controlled? The developer ofcoarse have a "testing mode" which the controllant are shown...where everything shines... LOL.. No periods of 4000 half dead spins without bonus features
Without casinos there would not be any licenses to get payed for...who needs who?
I dont belive anything is random...slots is same as lottery ofcoarse and your own account is separated from any other account..you fight your own average payout %. Which will land at around 96% sooner or later. I just have to face it and hope for that little jump and withdraw and get the hell out and close account. But its hard to close account after a big win..

Every reputable casino and games provider has to have a licence in the UK and in most other regulated jurisdictions. Within those companies are also personal licence holders in the UK. For a game to have a UK release, one of those licence holders must sign the game off as compliant. If it later turns out that game is not compliant, the personal licence holder can be found responsible. So there is a lot of pressure in the UK to make sure games are compliant.

 

[trancemonkey]

I get it often when I play during my stream, and get suggestions if you do such and such on a slot it will give the bonus, it will pay.

Surely, that being the case, I would say the slot is well and truly broke?

Do you agree or disagree? Can slots give tell tale signs it is about to do something?

As someone else has said... if this were true, you'd be very rich

As part of our games design process we always go to great lengths to design in "player control" where we can. This means giving the player the feeling that they can control the game and the outcome.

It plays to people's psychology. This post is proof it works sometimes

 

[trancemonkey]

Do spins in demo mode affect overall payouts of the real money equivalent?
For example does somebody winning big(or losing big) on a slot with play money count towards the rtp of the same real money slot or are they run off different servers?

Not at all... demo spins are not registered in the same way. However, even if they did it would make no difference. Slot games are not affected by previous play so nothing affects anything...

 

[trancemonkey]

100% the maths was changed on Twinspin to smooth the variance on the game. When you play now the balance hangs around and seems to last longer but the big wins are more remote. The RTP will remain the same, but the game will play differently.

On DOA its the same but more pronounced. Sure, you can still get the wild lines, but they are fewer and farer between, whilst the majority of bonus rounds appear to pay marginally more (50x stake much more common as opposed to previous 10-20x).

Certainly these games remain capable of producing the previous big wins, but the alteration means that these are even rarer than they were before as the RTP has been "fleshed out" with the increased abundance of medium wins at the expense of the mega wins.

Why does this matter?

Im sure from a developer point of view, then it will be argued that it is what is popular with players, and they are feeding this demand. I don't buy it though.

From a casino point of view, by lowering the slot variance slot then the player is playing for longer, but crucially, the bonus beating and withdrawal inducing mega wins are now rarer -remarkably so - meaning that despite the RTP remaining the same the actually REAL net loss to the casino - the point where the player will actually hit the withdraw button - has been reduced.

So the Casino bottom line is increased and risk is reduced, even though the house edge has remained the same.

This fact has also driven the recent releases from the major software houses like Netent (from Warlords and pretty much everything in the last year or so) releasing slots where the so called "big wins" are more around the 150x stake mark compared to 500x stake on the previous releases. MG are the same.

Re: Twin Spin - again, I would doubt this. You say you're 100% certain so I assume you either work for NetEnt or have contact with them and have info I don't. If not, then it's perception... although I can't say whether you're right or wrong...

Re: lowering slot variance. I don't buy this... I've worked for providers for the last 9 years and not once have we been asked by a casino to lower the variance on slots. In fact the UK based casinos ask for higher variance as they believe their players prefer them.

And also, casinos don't really give two shits about variance - normally it's max liability they worry about. As long as you have enough users on your site, variance isn't really an issue.

Here's a real life example.. Ladbrokes, on any given day, have about half of their FOBTS running at a loss. People win. Some of the terminals lose thousands in a day. However, half of them take enough money that the net gain / loss is actually relatively small and not really that volatile. Sportsbook companies have much more volatility than casinos.

Also ito pertinent to remember that all us guys playing 1 euro a spin.. for most casinos we are pointless. 90% of their revenue comes from about 5% of players. Why you think they have VIP CS.

So as someone who has designed and produced these games for companies I can tell you that I've never been asked to lower the variance of a slot.

Which is why I'm surprised you think NetEnt have. Caveat here though... I'm only going off my own experience.

Also, your assumption as to why NetEnt have created lower big win games such as Warlords us almost certainly wrong... all of us providers do different types of games aimed at different segments of players. To simplify it let's call the gamblers or entertainers.

Twin Spin is for gamblers.
Warlords is for entertainers.

You don't spend 12 months making a game like Warlords only to put volatile maths in it, potantially reducing your total player base. Some people just want to play slots to be entertained. Dunover said it in his review... NetEnt volatility. There are some big wins in there still though...

Anyway... good conversation points. There are some things we will always disagree on

 

[trancemonkey]

I know I have pointed out this before but it bears repeating IMO: I believe the above is also the reason why almost none (or actually none, as far as I know) of the new slots allow for changing the number of lines (because reducing the number of lines played greatly increases variance). And I believe it is also why NetEnt even removed this option from some of the older slots...

Actually it's simpler than that... it makes it far more easy to develop, test, approve (via government test labs) and do the maths for. Also very very few people play at less than max lines. It also means you can't put feature bets/ante bets on very easily if you have line selection.

 

[Ork]

I see.

Okay I think I get it, So each spin is a completely random event independent of any past or future spin but with a slightly weighted choice of outcomes against the player which is determined by the RTP.
Thanks For your patience

Great thread!

 

[interlog]

At what point does a game have to be re-licensed?

Big Time Gaming said they couldn't do changes to the music of the game because it had to go through the licensing again? Music doesn't change the play behaviour of the game, so why would that require re-licensing?

Recently Fruit Warp had a new version (I heard people say it plays different), does each version change require a new re-license or only if the RTP / game behaviour changes?

 

[trancemonkey]

At what point does a game have to be re-licensed?

Big Time Gaming said they couldn't do changes to the music of the game because it had to go through the licensing again? Music doesn't change the play behaviour of the game, so why would that require re-licensing?

Recently Fruit Warp had a new version (I heard people say it plays different), does each version change require a new re-license or only if the RTP / game behaviour changes?

It depends - here's an example from when i worked at Inspired... When you submitted a game (to NMI for example - a test house) they gave you back a list of critical files. These are files that they determine are critical to the game logic - i.e the maths. If you want to make a change to a non-critical file at a later date, it is much easier and cheaper to do so as you don't need to test the maths again. However, if you need to make a change to a critical file EVEN IF THE CHANGE DOESN'T AFFECT THE MATHS, then it has to be retested and the maths have to be verified again. This is where the bulk of the costs lie.

If you change the game at all from the version which was tested (homologated) then it needs to be re-evaluated by the test house. The scope of that evaluation is the only thing that changes... (I think it's ok in some circumstances for the software provider to self-certify via the internal personal licence holder if the changes are to non-critical files, but i'm not 100% sure of this - and of course the personal licence holder is personally responsible if something goes wrong!

 

[trancemonkey]

Really enjoying the thread so far - keep them coming

 

[steveh35]

Dunover and others are concerned at the use of "kiddie graphics" on NetEnt, do you think the casinos and developers should be more concerned about the type of graphics being designed or should we be more relaxed about it and just enjoy the games.

Does the use of "kiddie graphics" really encourage younger people into gambling?

 

[slotter999]

It depends - when you submit a game (to NMI for example - a test house) they give you back a list of critical files. These are files that they determine are critical to the game logic - i.e the maths. If you want to make a change to a non-critical file at a later date, it is much easier and cheaper to do so as you don't need to test the maths again. However, if you need to make a change to a critical file EVEN IF THE CHANGE DOESN'T AFFECT THE MATHS, then it has to be retested and the maths have to be verified again. This is where the bulk of the costs lie.

If you change the game at all from the version which was tested (homologated) then it needs to be re-evaluated by the test house. The scope of that evaluation is the only thing that changes... (I think it's ok in some circumstances for the software provider to self-certify via the internal personal licence holder if the changes are to non-critical files, but i'm not 100% sure of this - and of course the personal licence holder is personally responsible if something goes wrong!

The UKGC did a consultancy on this a while ago and were trying to implement a less burdensome process to permit self certification for minor updates i.e. artwork updates etc. I don't believe this has yet to be implemented.

As for the other comments about netent and game maths changing. There is an interview with head of products from netent and our very own casinomeister where he states the maths models have not changed for any html5 game migrations. I'm pretty sure he could hand over the source code and that still wouldn't be enough to convince people

 

[trancemonkey]

Dunover and others are concerned at the use of "kiddie graphics" on NetEnt, do you think the casinos and developers should be more concerned about the type of graphics being designed or should we be more relaxed about it and just enjoy the games.

Does the use of "kiddie graphics" really encourage younger people into gambling?

I hate "Slots for Tots" as I call it... and some casinos don't like them at all. In the retail sector, if you did a game like Wolf Cub, I almost guarantee William Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral, etc.. would not take it. There is also the problem of the Advertising Standards Agency which ban the use of any artwork which might be deemed likely to encourage underage gambling... so a game like this couldn't be advertised on TV or posters or wherever.

Personally, Fabric 4 is the nearest I've got to that kind of graphics and I tried to make sure it wasn't overly childish...

I think there are a number of providers that need to stop the slots for Tots games.

 

[trancemonkey]

The UKGC did a consultancy on this a while ago and were trying to implement a less burdensome process to permit self certification for minor updates i.e. artwork updates etc. I don't believe this has yet to be implemented.

As for the other comments about netent and game maths changing. There is an interview with head of products from netent and our very own casinomeister where he states the maths models have not changed for any html5 game migrations. I'm pretty sure he could hand over the source code and that still wouldn't be enough to convince people

As I've said, I would find it extremely unlikely they have done this for any reason, let alone the reason given earlier about variance which to be honest is pretty irrelevant.

 

[gimmi85]

Hey is the players acount somehowe conected to the provider. Ive been playing gonzoz quest for the last 6 years and never had a big win untill oktober 2016, then in just a couple off days it payed out really sik amount. Royal panda 12000€ betat 11000€ netbet 12000€ and it really felt that the slot was behaving the same on every site i played it on. Im betting high 30-50€ spins so the most money of it is gone for now. on netbet i did not made a cashout. Now it also behave like it dit when i won but not on the other side i just loosin loosin and it dont event feel like i am gambling. So is there any chance that by maybe ip number or personal detaljs the provider know ho "i am". thank u and have a nice day

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey is the players acount somehowe conected to the provider. Ive been playing gonzoz quest for the last 6 years and never had a big win untill oktober 2016, then in just a couple off days it payed out really sik amount. Royal panda 12000€ betat 11000€ netbet 12000€ and it really felt that the slot was behaving the same on every site i played it on. Im betting high 30-50€ spins so the most money of it is gone for now. on netbet i did not made a cashout. Now it also behave like it dit when i won but not on the other side i just loosin loosin and it dont event feel like i am gambling. So is there any chance that by maybe ip number or personal detaljs the provider know ho "i am". thank u and have a nice day

Not in the slightest - it would be illegal, difficult to do without errors (IP addresses change regularly unless you have a fixed IP) and most importantly not in anyone's interest (from the casino / provider) point of view!

 

[quber]

Thanks for the long replay Trancemonkey, but I cant agree with answer 1 and 2... Playing looong time at one bet the slot always act different instantly if you change bet...and its whne you have thse loong sessions without any big win or feature the slot expose how not random it is...sooo many times the slot have instantly triggered a feature on last spin, often when you play you last 15 cent with less paylines...seen many crazy win here on the forum that is on last spin or almost zero balance...and that is only big wins...other are not posted here ofcoarse. Doent matter ifd the slot is on good or bad mood..if its on good mood i pay randomly...periods of many features which pay low and high...and periods with less good paying features or few of them...but when you do somehting after 4000 spins and see an instant change in behavour of the slot something must be "rigged"...its like the slot lost connection to the server that records gamestats anfd more...and whne you change bet the slot send a signal to server adn reconnects and gamestats are refreshed and slot feels "oh here is very bad payout on this account, trigger free spins instatnly!"
For ex at Video Slots you often are logged off from casino, but still online playing a slot...got me suspisous everytime about payout...

Do you play a lot though? Let's say you have launched a slot machine a total of 5,000 times that means you have had 5,000 last spins, if you never got a bonus round or free spins on those 5,000 you would say it is rigged yet when you do get a bonus round you think it is rigged. As Trancemonkey says it is all about perception and what you remember from a session.

For all you know, unless you log your games, you may never have had a win on your 182nd spin on any session, that would be strange but you would never notice it so it is not an issue.

 

[Captain Rizk]

I hate "Slots for Tots" as I call it... and some casinos don't like them at all. In the retail sector, if you did a game like Wolf Cub, I almost guarantee William Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral, etc.. would not take it. There is also the problem of the Advertising Standards Agency which ban the use of any artwork which might be deemed likely to encourage underage gambling... so a game like this couldn't be advertised on TV or posters or wherever.

Personally, Fabric 4 is the nearest I've got to that kind of graphics and I tried to make sure it wasn't overly childish...

I think NetEnt (and iSoftBet are terrible for this too) need to stop the slots for Tots games.

I agree completely with Trancemonkey on this and every time a game provider gives us a preview of their upcoming games and it includes a "slots for tots" then I for one am brutally frank about what a bad idea this is.

However, my understanding of what they are trying to achieve is very different from a marketing perspective, they are trying to create a feeling of nostalgia within the player and these feelings can be very strong. I am sure that most of you can think back to your childhood where everything seemed so much simpler and there was no job/salary/mortgage/wife/ex wife/kids/car payments/bills to worry about.

Whilst this is obviously fiction I think that this extract from "Mad Men" explains what they want to achieve quite well.

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[quber]

Okay I think I get it, So each spin is a completely random event independent of any past or future spin but with a slightly weighted choice of outcomes against the player which is determined by the RTP.
Thanks For your patience

Great thread!

I always think the easiest way visualise RTP as a result of the maths of a game is to think of Roulette on a physical wheel that has not been tampered with, it has no software to manipulate the game yet it has an RTP of 97.3%, if you add another zero to the wheel it then has an RTP of 94.7%. Past spins have no affect on any future spins

There is no reason to tamper with it as it will make money for the casino as it is.

 

[trancemonkey]

However, my understanding of what they are trying to achieve is very different from a marketing perspective, they are trying to create a feeling of nostalgia within the player and these feelings can be very strong. I am sure that most of you can think back to your childhood where everything seemed so much simpler and there was no job/salary/mortgage/wife/ex wife/kids/car payments/bills to worry about.

Nostalgia is great and does draw people in - but Wolf Cub isn't nostalgic. It's (arguably) for kids. You want to be nostalgic? Get the Baywatch licence. Or Knight Rider.
Cloud Tales (iSoftBet) doesn't make me feel nostalgic - arguably their Mega Boy is (although i don't personally like the game)

 

[trancemonkey]

I always think the easiest way visualise RTP as a result of the maths of a game is to think of Roulette on a physical wheel that has not been tampered with, it has no software to manipulate the game yet it has an RTP of 97.3%, if you add another zero to the wheel it then has an RTP of 94.7%. Past spins have no affect on any future spins

There is no reason to tamper with it as it will make money for the casino as it is.

Here's one that quite often gets people talking....

An FOBT roulette wheel is MORE random than a physical roulette wheel in a casino. Fact.

 

[quber]

Here's one that quite often gets people talking....

An FOBT roulette wheel is MORE random than a physical roulette wheel in a casino. Fact.

It should be as it has no physical imperfection to affect the ball and no 'muscle memory' of a dealer that can also have an effect

 

[trancemonkey]

It should be as it has no physical imperfection to affect the ball and no 'muscle memory' of a dealer that can also have an effect

Exactly!

 

[Janek12]

Why don't we keep the thread to asking Trancemonkey the questions, and leaving out everyone's endlessly boring, half-cocked, unproven theory's and personal vendettas regarding slots.

It's immensely rare for a slot developer to open up and enlighten us, I'd hate for the bullshit to drive him off.

Thanks Trancemonkey!

I am not sure if your post was directed at me but

1) The former problem with the Frankenstein slot is a FACT, not a theory; it's just that we do not know any details about it. I used it to illustrate that ANYTHING can happen even with slots from reputable providers. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, we can only speculate.

2) I think the math behind variance and how much money the casino makes (and therefore how much money the player loses) is quite important and just as interesting as the math behind the mechanics of slot - actually these mathematical aspects must be closely related in slot design.

My point was that at one end of a spectrum you could have a slot that had 0 variance. You bet 1 EUR and you win 99 cents back. That is the best money-making machine for a casino that can be. And it has 99 % RTP .

By a simple logic it would seem that the higher the variance, the more advantageous a slot is for a player. But unless I am mistaken - and I would be happy to hear an expert comment on this - the profit of casinos does not equal the house hedge. It is actually much higher because the player, unlike the casino, does not have unlimited funds. So the player often busts before getting the bonus round on slots, for example.

So if a slot's variance is too high, the players may - in theory - never (or it may take them 50 years, which is "never" for all practical purposes) reach the 100 000x bet bonus round (an extreme example) and the casino may make much more money from such slot than from a slot with a lower variance.

I think it is called "hold" what the casinos actually earn as a profit.

And I would assume that some kind of a perfect balance between variance and the casino's "hold" is the most important financial aspect in slot design and that these are the games on which the casino makes a profit while giving the players the feeling (actually the experience) that they have a decent chance of winning something worthwhile from time to time.

And I think that this is the main reason why players like some slots much more than others, even if they have the same TRTP.

My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?

 

[trancemonkey]

My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?

In the short term, yes. It's called the "hold" or "rake". If you put $100 in to a slot and play to extinction (i.e you always lose) then the hold is 100%. Gross profit is the main factor.

See below vvvvv for a much better explanation by CaptainRizk

 

[Captain Rizk]

To answer some fo your questions about casino operations please see below

I am not sure if your post was directed at me but

1) The former problem with the Frankenstein slot is a FACT, not a theory; it's just that we do not know any details about it. I used it to illustrate that ANYTHING can happen even with slots from reputable providers. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, we can only speculate.

2) I think the math behind variance and how much money the casino makes (and therefore how much money the player loses) is quite important and just as interesting as the math behind the mechanics of slot - actually these mathematical aspects must be closely related in slot design.

My point was that at one end of a spectrum you could have a slot that had 0 variance. You bet 1 EUR and you win 99 cents back. That is the best money-making machine for a casino that can be. And it has 99 % RTP .

yes you are correct this would be the ultimate from our point of view but then no-one would play and therefore we would not make any money at all.

By a simple logic it would seem that the higher the variance, the more advantageous a slot is for a player. But unless I am mistaken - and I would be happy to hear an expert comment on this - the profit of casinos does not equal the house hedge. It is actually much higher because the player, unlike the casino, does not have unlimited funds. So the player often busts before getting the bonus round on slots, for example.

No this is not correct, our GROSS profit is the house edge - although this will depend upon the volume of bets on different games that all have different RTPs, but generally the Gross profit is the total amount played (turnover) multiplied by the average Margin or RTP

So if a slot's variance is too high, the players may - in theory - never (or it may take them 50 years, which is "never" for all practical purposes) reach the 100 000x bet bonus round (an extreme example) and the casino may make much more money from such slot than from a slot with a lower variance.

This is true only if you are talking about one player and his/her big win does not hit early. This is the beauty of variance and, as Trancemonkey has been explaining, because each spin is an independent and random event it is just as likely to hit on the first spin as it is to hit on the 1,000,000,000th spin, it is all down to probability. Therefore it follows that from a casino point of view when you have 1000's of players playing the same game those bigger hits come more frequently even though more players lose their balance more quickly due to variance and volatility and therefore the casino edge is still the RTP. The ONLY way that we can make more money is to get more players to play and retain the ones that have played with us previously.

I think it is called "hold" what the casinos actually earn as a profit.

Casino Hold is a theoretical value and cannot be used only as a guide but cannot be used to calculate anything other than between when a casino opens and a casino closes. There is always money being deposited and not withdrawn by players in a casino and you can never know whether the money that is currently invested will be withdrawn, played to extinction, partially withdrawn or even when either one of those two events will happen or if indeed it will ever happen. For example we had a player last March that won $20 with his No Deposit Free Spins, the money was left on his account until a week or so ago, the player came back and then turned this into $30,000+ and then withdrew. So when can we calculate our hold? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Quarterly? Annually? This is the reason that all listed Gaming Companies report revenues based on Gross Gaming Revenue which then trickle down to Net Revenues and EBIT figures

And I would assume that some kind of a perfect balance between variance and the casino's "hold" is the most important financial aspect in slot design and that these are the games on which the casino makes a profit while giving the players the feeling (actually the experience) that they have a decent chance of winning something worthwhile from time to time.

The basice difference to players between high variance slots and low variance slots is that a player can hit a big win in one go on a high variance slot and therefore only need to get lucky once in a session. To win with lower variance games then you have to be lucky over a longer period in a session to beat the RTP. However the base line for us as Operators is that it is ALWAYS the RTP that is important and that we provide games that have a mix between different volatilities to cater for a wider range of players in order to retain them.

And I think that this is the main reason why players like some slots much more than others, even if they have the same TRTP.

My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?

 

[BeardyGuts]

Hope i am not too late to the party. Bloody good read so far thanks a lot.

I wanted to jump back to your point about the randomness of bonus round selections when you talked about Secret of the Stones.

I'll put one example first. I was playing Plants v Zombies and won the pick bonus (cant remember exactly which one) where you make one of four selections.
I made my pick was an x times bet win.. seen one of the four was the progressive when they revealed after my selection then the game crashed when trying to go back to the normal game. Reloaded the game and i was back in the feature again. I picked the spot that had the progressive and of course got my same win as i had the first time. I knew this in my head really and also was thinking if i do win the progressive second time around then i have no chance of getting that paid out.

So my question(s)

At what point is it decided what you will get? In my example did i ever have a chance of winning the progressive or was that determined as soon as the bonus rolled in?

Looking at Secret Stones, what advantage is there to the game picking the bonus (i assume this is random) before you make your selection? In that game the same options are available to pick all the time, so surely if they let you pick what you want then over time the RTP will be as they wanted? Or is this some sort of protection against people resetting the game?

 

[Tourettesguy]

Do you play a lot though? Let's say you have launched a slot machine a total of 5,000 times that means you have had 5,000 last spins, if you never got a bonus round or free spins on those 5,000 you would say it is rigged yet when you do get a bonus round you think it is rigged. As Trancemonkey says it is all about perception and what you remember from a session.

For all you know, unless you log your games, you may never have had a win on your 182nd spin on any session, that would be strange but you would never notice it so it is not an issue.

Actually I made around 4000 spins at €2 and €4 spins....got nothing...lowered bet to my last cents around 60 cent and got a 500x free spins win instantly...then again...same session....lowered to my last cents got free spins instantly..but this time not that big feature...can only be a built in "rigged" programming.....its easier to win Mega Jackpot on Mega Fortune twice in a row I believe....Ive seen this pattern soo many times during the years... Just cant be random, doesnt matter if anyone denies it...its just not random....

If I happen to make one €1 spin and hit a €10,000 win......then I do 9,999 spins on €1 and none of them win anything...people here would say its nothing wrong because Ive almost 100% average payout... So it doesnt matter how rigged something really is, it will never be proven to be rigged here....

 

[Webzcas]

Have to say this thread is quality. There goes my afternoon of working! Now back to page 3. Thanks very much Trancemonkey!

 

[trancemonkey]

So my question(s)

At what point is it decided what you will get? In my example did i ever have a chance of winning the progressive or was that determined as soon as the bonus rolled in?

Looking at Secret Stones, what advantage is there to the game picking the bonus (i assume this is random) before you make your selection? In that game the same options are available to pick all the time, so surely if they let you pick what you want then over time the RTP will be as they wanted? Or is this some sort of protection against people resetting the game?

To answer your first point, it's normally at the point you pressed the start button to spin the reels to get the bonus. Some providers might wait until after the reels have spun and the bonus is shown (but obviously before you can interact with the game) - depends how the games are coded. The server needs to know the outcome of the game so that it can restore it properly. To be honest, if a game crashes AFTER a player interaction, i would normally insist the game restores to AFTER the interaction part (where possible) to stop this exact scenario.

Re: SOTS - The options are there for the player to pick because of player psychologically - our job is to make you think you were unlucky with those picks...

 

[BeardyGuts]

To answer your first point, it's normally at the point you pressed the start button to spin the reels to get the bonus. Some providers might wait until after the reels have spun and the bonus is shown (but obviously before you can interact with the game) - depends how the games are coded. The server needs to know the outcome of the game so that it can restore it properly. To be honest, if a game crashes AFTER a player interaction, i would normally insist the game restores to AFTER the interaction part (where possible) to stop this exact scenario.

Re: SOTS - The options are there for the player to pick because of player psychologically - our job is to make you think you were unlucky with those picks...

Thanks for the response.

All those times i got 'start free spins' first pick on moonshine and i was blaming myself and it was the f*cking game the whole time!
i think you just ruined all those selection type games for me!

 

[trancemonkey]

Actually I made around 4000 spins at €2 and €4 spins....got nothing...lowered bet to my last cents around 60 cent and got a 500x free spins win instantly...then again...same session....lowered to my last cents got free spins instantly..but this time not that big feature...can only be a built in "rigged" programming.....its easier to win Mega Jackpot on Mega Fortune twice in a row I believe....Ive seen this pattern soo many times during the years... Just cant be random, doesnt matter if anyone denies it...its just not random....

If I happen to make one €1 spin and hit a €10,000 win......then I do 9,999 spins on €1 and none of them win anything...people here would say its nothing wrong because Ive almost 100% average payout... So it doesnt matter how rigged something really is, it will never be proven to be rigged here....

It's not rigged. You were lucky.

Keep a spreadsheet of every game you play... better still get Slot Tracker when it comes out... and record the amount of times ithat happens.

Plus if it IS rigged, just put £5 in and have one spin at £5. Withdraw your enormous win and repeat this process.

I'm sorry .. that's flippant, but whether your mind can be changed or not you are wrong... and I'd say I'm 99.99% certain about that... because if you're right, and it purposely gave you 500x on your last spin, that means it purposely took over 500x off you in order to do it.

 

[trancemonkey]

Btw... if it doesn't matter who denies it, why bring it up on this thread...

 

[slotmaster]

I concur that this is a great thread! Have been waiting for something like this since day 1.