Ask me anything (about slots)!

[dunover]

Well, even I can figure out a slot can multitask...sure it instatly feels if connetion is lost and overrides any function tar would still work if I cut mu internet...think you supply me with too easy answers.. You cant argue that a triggered free spin could in teorybe played i connetion were lost.. Now when we talk about that I can comfirm at Play' go games its possible...playingautoplay and you leave and come back and se you won a bonus roumd . But PlaynGo loseconnection prettyfast when inactive...still you can press start and see the bonusround, first when its over tje red box saying connection lost apperas. Doubt you tell all you know here...sounds more amd more like a support guy at VideoSlots saying we have no control over anythimg...

Yes, it can - the server gets your instruction i.e. 'play' when you press start. You trigger a bonus, and on the second spin your connection fails. The game server carries on doing its job, goes through the bonus (on some software like Playtech but not Microgaming or WMS) as it doesn't matter to it if you can see it on your PC or not. So you will miss the bonus but just be credited with the final total when reconnected. If it doesn't credit, the casino can get the total from the server via the game provider. This would happen on softwares that do the bonus in one packet of data, rather than send each spin to your PC separately.

The slot cannot override an instruction the server's already received. All your PC does is provide a video graphic of an outcome already decided once the server's received your press of the button.

 

[Homicidal79]

Loving reading this thread. As for the last post I remember a while back on bet365 on immortal romance my balance went up by about 50 quid. Then the music and wild desire started. Obviously ending up paying what I'd already received prior to the wilds and the spin. Anyway was gonna give my opinion and thoughts on slots after many years playing. But going bed as gotta be up early for work. Keep up the good work.

 

[aceking123]

Never seen that - and i don't know any providers that currently pre-detemine the outcome of free spins, although i wouldn't be surprised if some do (in the way i've explained earlier). Do you have any specific examples?

Lots of sites , ladbrokes, bgo just to name a few , ive seen this balance change before , WMS games get the feature on WOZ check balance straight away your know if its a good win or just shite )

this only happens on web browser games if that helps. also why wouldnt it ? stake £1.20 payout £45 quid predetermined , very easy calculations from a server point of view & very easy programming for games ??????? it has a batch fo 10000s of features already built in TRTP% , so this in affect is still random & passes all the Regs ? i could be wrong as im no programmer, hence to me asking you

Another thing is with the new line of netent games , to where you cannot use 3 lines , your forced to use max lines , surely this is far better & easier for programming & maths, due to the max line theory being set ??

 

[Tourettesguy]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

 

[aceking123]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

all well & good but i never ever play two games at the same time , ive always period stuck to one game , hence there are things i notice , seems WMS games maybe its bug or delayed response or forced response to quickly. im not sure i have a few other weird things as well )

 

[nikantw]

....i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want....

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

 

[dunover]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

Yes, that happens on Microgaming and some others - the outcome of your spin is credited to the account total before the reels even start spinning. The result in money terms x stake is instant almost speed of light to your account, but the Video graphics take a few seconds to play through, so while the reels spin if you go to your account (or in your case your account balance is showing in other slots!) you know the outcome already!

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes, that happens on Microgaming and some others - the outcome of your spin is credited to the account total before the reels even start spinning. The result in money terms x stake is instant almost speed of light to your account, but the Video graphics take a few seconds to play through, so while the reels spin if you go to your account (or in your case your account balance is showing in other slots!) you know the outcome already!

Shoddy code .. but of course the server has to know the outcome of the game the moment it receives a spin request as all the data for that game is sent back to the client. If a company were to pre-draw all the free spins at the point the game logic knows free spins will be awarded then in theory, with bad code, you could see your total balance updated early. I HAVE seen this in single games like you say, but I've never seen the balance of an entire free spins round added before its begun...

 

[trancemonkey]

Lots of sites , ladbrokes, bgo just to name a few , ive seen this balance change before , WMS games get the feature on WOZ check balance straight away your know if its a good win or just shite )

this only happens on web browser games if that helps. also why wouldnt it ? stake £1.20 payout £45 quid predetermined , very easy calculations from a server point of view & very easy programming for games ??????? it has a batch fo 10000s of features already built in TRTP% , so this in affect is still random & passes all the Regs ? i could be wrong as im no programmer, hence to me asking you

Another thing is with the new line of netent games , to where you cannot use 3 lines , your forced to use max lines , surely this is far better & easier for programming & maths, due to the max line theory being set ??

Absolutely forcing max lines makes game design easier... I always do fixed line games now unless the market demands games with changeable lines (like in Sweden for example) .

What you say about predetermined free spins in interesting because I know a lot of social casinos and some very small inexperienced providers have been known to do just this. This only really happens when the provider is very inexperienced with maths... and certainly I would be very very surprised if any major manufacturer had even done this. However that still doesn't mean that the free spins are predownloaded or anything as daft as that...

 

[steveh35]

Shoddy code .. but of course the server has to know the outcome of the game the moment it receives a spin request as all the data for that game is sent back to the client. If a company were to pre-draw all the free spins at the point the game logic knows free spins will be awarded then in theory, with shit code, you could see your total balance updated early. I HAVE seen this in single games like you say, but I've never seen the balance of an entire free spins round added before its begun...

Gala casino shows you the result before the spin has finished, one of the reasons I do not use Gala very often.

This doesn't happen during free spins.

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

I'm afraid this is out of my area of expertise... but if the game is in free play / demo mode, the game can do anything (it doesn't HAVE to be random...)

I'm sure Captain Risk could shed far more light on this than I

 

[brianmon]

if the game is in free play / demo mode, the game can do anything (it doesn't HAVE to be random...)

I'd have thought that free play/demo mode would have to accurately represent Real play, both legally and ethically

 

[quber]

I think if players understood the order of play then some of these balance updates will make sense.

So basically, when a player presses the spin button that command is sent to the server, the server then contacts the players casino account to check if the funds are available, if they are then the server continues and requests a result from the RNG, the game at that point, if there are no free spins or bonus rounds, is complete and the balance updates are sent to your casino account and the result is stored in the suppliers back office. At the same time as it is sending the result to your account it is also sending the spin result to your computer to tell the reels where to land and to also update your in game balance after the reels have stopped.

if you have your balance showing elsewhere then it will show the update before your reels have stopped spinning.

When you get the free spins each spin is the same as above except the balance check doesn't happen at the start of the spin, MG update your balance after every spin of a free spin whereas I think all the others hold the winnings and pay as one amount at the end of the spins.

there are other things happening at the same time that don't affect the game such as the responsible gaming stuff and any bonus calculations that may be needed but the above is the basics of what is happening

 

[quber]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

The only ones i can think of with that are Yggdrasil games where you can be given free spins that will continue until you hit a bonus round, they can also be configured to continue until the player has won a certain amount overall or until he has won a certain amount on any single spin.

 

[SpinUk]

Quickspin offer this facility on their games (certainly dragon shrine). Straight into the bonus round. From an integration view point i can see how it could be done (replicate the rng bonus round start message and send to client). If this is indeed possible and happens this does cast some shadows on the previous posts...

 

[trancemonkey]

I think if players understood the order of play then some of these balance updates will make sense.

So basically, when a player presses the spin button that command is sent to the server, the server then contacts the players casino account to check if the funds are available, if they are then the server continues and requests a result from the RNG, the game at that point, if there are no free spins or bonus rounds, is complete and the balance updates are sent to your casino account and the result is stored in the suppliers back office. At the same time as it is sending the result to your account it is also sending the spin result to your computer to tell the reels where to land and to also update your in game balance after the reels have stopped.

if you have your balance showing elsewhere then it will show the update before your reels have stopped spinning.

When you get the free spins each spin is the same as above except the balance check doesn't happen at the start of the spin, MG update your balance after every spin of a free spin whereas I think all the others hold the winnings and pay as one amount at the end of the spins.

there are other things happening at the same time that don't affect the game such as the responsible gaming stuff and any bonus calculations that may be needed but the above is the basics of what is happening

A very well written, and absolutely spot on post

 

[hhhelllo]

This is by far the most interesting thread I have read here. Thanks a lot for doing this trancemonkey. Thanks for captiainrizk to participate too. Really enjoying it!

 

[sapit222]

Ive read all pages now and its interesting.
Ill continue following this thread.

Thanks to Trancemonkey and also Rizk for joining. :notworthy

 

[trancemonkey]

Ive read all pages now and its interesting.
Ill continue following this thread.

Thanks to Trancemonkey and also Rizk for joining. :notworthy

Thanks matey! If you have any questions, please fire away.... things like "how do you decide how many free spins to award when you're designing a game? Why choose 7, or 10, or 12, etc..."

 

[PatrickNess]

I bingeread last 10 pages ...

The topic of integrity of the games and honesty/fairness of casinos, devs, auditors, etc is well too big to be contained in a single thread. It deserves its own section, if not the whole forum. But hey, not my house.

Thanks again trancemonkey for staying until now




1) are reels, reels ? I mean, is a reel a fixed, finite strip of non changing symbols with probability of landing on a bet line equal the frequency of that symbol on that reel ? (actually joins questions 2-3)

2) is it (point in question 1) required by law/regulations ?

3) why are almost all slots illegal and why are authorities not doing anything about it? I explain myself. By regulation, when betting on something that represents a physical device, like a coin with head and tails, odds must be that of a fair device (in this case 0.50 0.50). But for (video) slots, non physical things happen
- sticky wilds, walking wilds, expending wilds are non physical events.
- change of reels (Jack and the Beanstalk -> no scatter symbol appear when there is a walking wild; by far not the only example)
- on jackpot wheels, the odds of having the needle point the JP section do not correspond to a that of uniform distribution on a circle. Same for JP bonus with cards etc. (Mega Fortune-like JP wheels are little more correct)

3) are undocumented "hot modes" legal? aka Terminator2 reels are different depending on the hot/cold mode, kind of "non physical thing".

4) how and where should every player who ever played a video slot make a complaint about any thing I mentionned?

5) [asking a personal opinion here] if developers/operators were required by law/regulation to disclose the distribution of paytable [aka math model of slot], do you think the market will change in any way ? loss/gain of global revenue, some games played more than others ?

6) Other than a drastic change in
a: regulations or
b: loss of revenue (assuming the 5% of players providing 90% of business suddenly get their gambling addiction under control/get a brain/realize how easily they can be or are cheated)
can you think of anything else that would push the industry towards more transparency from a player point of view, force casinos to implement tools to verify integrity of the game/each bet instead of trusting 3rd party paid by the casinos/game developers themselves, or disclose paytable distribution ?



edit: Sorry, terminator2 hotmode is documented

 

[Captain Rizk]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

Hey Nikantw - we were just talking about your trip to Malta last year to see us the other day!!

I think that there are a couple of providers that offer this functionality, as someone mentioned, there is Quickspin and iirc Scientific Games have this function to in game i think....

IT is known as a "feature trigger" and can only be set up by the operator and it is, in effect, a mystery bonus. What some providers allow is for you to "buy" entry into a free spins round (how this is triggered is dependent upon the supplier) but they know that on average it will payout around say 35x and therefore it is given away as a bonus mechanism to reward players - very much like free spins from any operator.

Personally, I am not a fan of this as it leads to confusions such as this but i think that it is important to remember that this is something aimed at being beneficial to the player but cannot be used to negatively affect the player, by that i mean if the RNG says the result is x,y or z then that is going to the be the game result

 

[quber]

3) why are almost all slots illegal and why are authorities not doing anything about it? I explain myself. By regulation, when betting on something that represents a physical device, like a coin with head and tails, odds must be that of a fair device (in this case 0.50 0.50). But for (video) slots, non physical things happen
- sticky wilds, walking wilds, expending wilds are non physical events.
- change of reels (Jack and the Beanstalk -> no scatter symbol appear when there is a walking wild; by far not the only example)
- on jackpot wheels, the odds of having the needle point the JP section do not correspond to a that of uniform distribution on a circle. Same for JP bonus with cards etc. (Mega Fortune-like JP wheels are little more correct)

3) are undocumented "hot modes" legal? aka Terminator2 reels are different depending on the hot/cold mode, kind of "non physical thing".

On physical slots you do find a change of reels happening, a lot of slots would have two reel sets, one on the bottom and one above it that would kick in on a bonus rounds

the old 3 reel slots were weighted to give cherries, for example, a greater chance of landing than a bell

Hot mode in Terminator 2 is documented, it is in the rules

as for the sticky wilds etc. this could be done on a mechanical slot but it would be far too complicated to make it worth while and get fully tested. Apart from that there is no requirement for a video slot to match a mechanical slot, if a mechanical slot does not have walking wilds then the video version can not be trying to emulate it whereas coins and cards do exist so they have to be a fair representation

 

[Tourettesguy]

Shoddy code? Yeah...Microgaming isnt that big and well known by now and havent been around for 20 years already...so ofcoarse they use shoddy code....

Am I wrong if I say all softwares instantly know a feature(bonus ofr free spins) total payout already before you click start button? And that nothing in a 100 spins feature will change...all 100 spins payout are already known same moment you hit the feature?

If not...which software care random at every spin...like if you log of in middle of free spins and continue 1 hour later you get other spins than you would have gotten if you stayed online? Only software I think can do that is RTG....those spins feel random changeable depending of if you stop spisn manually or not and so on..or maybe they only coded it non.shoddy to fool me.

 

[zap987]

Shoddy code? Yeah...Microgaming isnt that big and well known by now and havent been around for 20 years already...so ofcoarse they use shoddy code....

Am I wrong if I say all softwares instantly know a feature(bonus ofr free spins) total payout already before you click start button? And that nothing in a 100 spins feature will change...all 100 spins payout are already known same moment you hit the feature?

If not...which software care random at every spin...like if you log of in middle of free spins and continue 1 hour later you get other spins than you would have gotten if you stayed online? Only software I think can do that is RTG....those spins feel random changeable depending of if you stop spisn manually or not and so on..or maybe they only coded it non.shoddy to fool me.

Microgamings Viper client is full of shoddy code and has been since forever. Most likely exactly because it has been around so long they keep building on old stuff made by some programmer that left 15 years ago.

You are wrong of course in the case of free spins. In the Microgaming example, it only ever happens with a single spin feature, if you hit a pick bonus or feature like wildstorm, you will see your balance update if you have a different window showing your balance open because that spin is finished, there is nothing more for the gaming server to do. For free spins it is different and can easily be confirmed by watching how the balance will update in the other window before the spin finishes displaying but one spin at a time.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Microgamings Viper client is full of shoddy code and has been since forever. Most likely exactly because it has been around so long they keep building on old stuff made by some programmer that left 15 years ago.

You are wrong of course in the case of free spins. In the Microgaming example, it only ever happens with a single spin feature, if you hit a pick bonus or feature like wildstorm, you will see your balance update if you have a different window showing your balance open because that spin is finished, there is nothing more for the gaming server to do. For free spins it is different and can easily be confirmed by watching how the balance will update in the other window before the spin finishes displaying but one spin at a time.

Yes you are right about the free spin...and probably abount MG too...LOL.. Viper Download software also crash in 50% of startups...and 50% sooner or later ingame.. Haha. But still I think all 100 free spins are known before they starts...the 100spins are just a grphical illusion of a lottery ticket win..just good coding thatshow each win added to balance. Otjer adds it in abig chunk at the end like NetEnt WMS and IGT..and majority of total wins are pretty even amounts...like 1000 coins or 1500 or 7500 so on.. Or 99,6 or 100,30.. That is somthing too that crossed my mind...you often get a feature when you pass an even amount like...like when uou have had millions of dead spins and have €1001 in balance and next €1,5 spin trigger a feature...noticed it many many times...and when you are about to lower the bet cause you reaching last €100 from like €500 and that last spin before €100 balance triggers it...I bet others here been there done that...

Now in trancemonkeys head.."Wow..this tourettsguy have found out everything about how we program slots!!"