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Dunover and others are concerned at the use of "kiddie graphics" on NetEnt, do you think the casinos and developers should be more concerned about the type of graphics being designed or should we be more relaxed about it and just enjoy the games.

Does the use of "kiddie graphics" really encourage younger people into gambling?
 
It depends - when you submit a game (to NMI for example - a test house) they give you back a list of critical files. These are files that they determine are critical to the game logic - i.e the maths. If you want to make a change to a non-critical file at a later date, it is much easier and cheaper to do so as you don't need to test the maths again. However, if you need to make a change to a critical file EVEN IF THE CHANGE DOESN'T AFFECT THE MATHS, then it has to be retested and the maths have to be verified again. This is where the bulk of the costs lie.

If you change the game at all from the version which was tested (homologated) then it needs to be re-evaluated by the test house. The scope of that evaluation is the only thing that changes... (I think it's ok in some circumstances for the software provider to self-certify via the internal personal licence holder if the changes are to non-critical files, but i'm not 100% sure of this - and of course the personal licence holder is personally responsible if something goes wrong!

The UKGC did a consultancy on this a while ago and were trying to implement a less burdensome process to permit self certification for minor updates i.e. artwork updates etc. I don't believe this has yet to be implemented.

As for the other comments about netent and game maths changing. There is an interview with head of products from netent and our very own casinomeister where he states the maths models have not changed for any html5 game migrations. I'm pretty sure he could hand over the source code and that still wouldn't be enough to convince people :)
 
Dunover and others are concerned at the use of "kiddie graphics" on NetEnt, do you think the casinos and developers should be more concerned about the type of graphics being designed or should we be more relaxed about it and just enjoy the games.

Does the use of "kiddie graphics" really encourage younger people into gambling?

I hate "Slots for Tots" as I call it... and some casinos don't like them at all. In the retail sector, if you did a game like Wolf Cub, I almost guarantee William Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral, etc.. would not take it. There is also the problem of the Advertising Standards Agency which ban the use of any artwork which might be deemed likely to encourage underage gambling... so a game like this couldn't be advertised on TV or posters or wherever.

Personally, Fabric 4 is the nearest I've got to that kind of graphics and I tried to make sure it wasn't overly childish...

I think there are a number of providers that need to stop the slots for Tots games.
 
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The UKGC did a consultancy on this a while ago and were trying to implement a less burdensome process to permit self certification for minor updates i.e. artwork updates etc. I don't believe this has yet to be implemented.

As for the other comments about netent and game maths changing. There is an interview with head of products from netent and our very own casinomeister where he states the maths models have not changed for any html5 game migrations. I'm pretty sure he could hand over the source code and that still wouldn't be enough to convince people :)

As I've said, I would find it extremely unlikely they have done this for any reason, let alone the reason given earlier about variance which to be honest is pretty irrelevant.
 
Hey is the players acount somehowe conected to the provider. Ive been playing gonzoz quest for the last 6 years and never had a big win untill oktober 2016, then in just a couple off days it payed out really sik amount. Royal panda 12000€ betat 11000€ netbet 12000€ and it really felt that the slot was behaving the same on every site i played it on. Im betting high 30-50€ spins so the most money of it is gone for now. on netbet i did not made a cashout. Now it also behave like it dit when i won but not on the other side i just loosin loosin and it dont event feel like i am gambling. So is there any chance that by maybe ip number or personal detaljs the provider know ho "i am". thank u and have a nice day
 
Hey is the players acount somehowe conected to the provider. Ive been playing gonzoz quest for the last 6 years and never had a big win untill oktober 2016, then in just a couple off days it payed out really sik amount. Royal panda 12000€ betat 11000€ netbet 12000€ and it really felt that the slot was behaving the same on every site i played it on. Im betting high 30-50€ spins so the most money of it is gone for now. on netbet i did not made a cashout. Now it also behave like it dit when i won but not on the other side i just loosin loosin and it dont event feel like i am gambling. So is there any chance that by maybe ip number or personal detaljs the provider know ho "i am". thank u and have a nice day

Not in the slightest - it would be illegal, difficult to do without errors (IP addresses change regularly unless you have a fixed IP) and most importantly not in anyone's interest (from the casino / provider) point of view! :)
 
Thanks for the long replay Trancemonkey, but I cant agree with answer 1 and 2... Playing looong time at one bet the slot always act different instantly if you change bet...and its whne you have thse loong sessions without any big win or feature the slot expose how not random it is...sooo many times the slot have instantly triggered a feature on last spin, often when you play you last 15 cent with less paylines...seen many crazy win here on the forum that is on last spin or almost zero balance...and that is only big wins...other are not posted here ofcoarse. Doent matter ifd the slot is on good or bad mood..if its on good mood i pay randomly...periods of many features which pay low and high...and periods with less good paying features or few of them...but when you do somehting after 4000 spins and see an instant change in behavour of the slot something must be "rigged"...its like the slot lost connection to the server that records gamestats anfd more...and whne you change bet the slot send a signal to server adn reconnects and gamestats are refreshed and slot feels "oh here is very bad payout on this account, trigger free spins instatnly!"
For ex at Video Slots you often are logged off from casino, but still online playing a slot...got me suspisous everytime about payout...

Do you play a lot though? Let's say you have launched a slot machine a total of 5,000 times that means you have had 5,000 last spins, if you never got a bonus round or free spins on those 5,000 you would say it is rigged yet when you do get a bonus round you think it is rigged. As Trancemonkey says it is all about perception and what you remember from a session.

For all you know, unless you log your games, you may never have had a win on your 182nd spin on any session, that would be strange but you would never notice it so it is not an issue.
 
I hate "Slots for Tots" as I call it... and some casinos don't like them at all. In the retail sector, if you did a game like Wolf Cub, I almost guarantee William Hill, Ladbrokes, Coral, etc.. would not take it. There is also the problem of the Advertising Standards Agency which ban the use of any artwork which might be deemed likely to encourage underage gambling... so a game like this couldn't be advertised on TV or posters or wherever.

Personally, Fabric 4 is the nearest I've got to that kind of graphics and I tried to make sure it wasn't overly childish...

I think NetEnt (and iSoftBet are terrible for this too) need to stop the slots for Tots games.

I agree completely with Trancemonkey on this and every time a game provider gives us a preview of their upcoming games and it includes a "slots for tots" then I for one am brutally frank about what a bad idea this is.

However, my understanding of what they are trying to achieve is very different from a marketing perspective, they are trying to create a feeling of nostalgia within the player and these feelings can be very strong. I am sure that most of you can think back to your childhood where everything seemed so much simpler and there was no job/salary/mortgage/wife/ex wife/kids/car payments/bills to worry about.

Whilst this is obviously fiction I think that this extract from "Mad Men" explains what they want to achieve quite well.

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Okay I think I get it, So each spin is a completely random event independent of any past or future spin but with a slightly weighted choice of outcomes against the player which is determined by the RTP.
Thanks For your patience :thumbsup:

Great thread!

I always think the easiest way visualise RTP as a result of the maths of a game is to think of Roulette on a physical wheel that has not been tampered with, it has no software to manipulate the game yet it has an RTP of 97.3%, if you add another zero to the wheel it then has an RTP of 94.7%. Past spins have no affect on any future spins

There is no reason to tamper with it as it will make money for the casino as it is.
 
However, my understanding of what they are trying to achieve is very different from a marketing perspective, they are trying to create a feeling of nostalgia within the player and these feelings can be very strong. I am sure that most of you can think back to your childhood where everything seemed so much simpler and there was no job/salary/mortgage/wife/ex wife/kids/car payments/bills to worry about.

Nostalgia is great and does draw people in - but Wolf Cub isn't nostalgic. It's (arguably) for kids. You want to be nostalgic? Get the Baywatch licence. Or Knight Rider.
Cloud Tales (iSoftBet) doesn't make me feel nostalgic - arguably their Mega Boy is (although i don't personally like the game)
 
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I always think the easiest way visualise RTP as a result of the maths of a game is to think of Roulette on a physical wheel that has not been tampered with, it has no software to manipulate the game yet it has an RTP of 97.3%, if you add another zero to the wheel it then has an RTP of 94.7%. Past spins have no affect on any future spins

There is no reason to tamper with it as it will make money for the casino as it is.

Here's one that quite often gets people talking....

An FOBT roulette wheel is MORE random than a physical roulette wheel in a casino. Fact.
 
Here's one that quite often gets people talking....

An FOBT roulette wheel is MORE random than a physical roulette wheel in a casino. Fact.

It should be as it has no physical imperfection to affect the ball and no 'muscle memory' of a dealer that can also have an effect
 
Why don't we keep the thread to asking Trancemonkey the questions, and leaving out everyone's endlessly boring, half-cocked, unproven theory's and personal vendettas regarding slots.

It's immensely rare for a slot developer to open up and enlighten us, I'd hate for the bullshit to drive him off.

Thanks Trancemonkey!

I am not sure if your post was directed at me but

1) The former problem with the Frankenstein slot is a FACT, not a theory; it's just that we do not know any details about it. I used it to illustrate that ANYTHING can happen even with slots from reputable providers. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, we can only speculate.

2) I think the math behind variance and how much money the casino makes (and therefore how much money the player loses) is quite important and just as interesting as the math behind the mechanics of slot - actually these mathematical aspects must be closely related in slot design.

My point was that at one end of a spectrum you could have a slot that had 0 variance. You bet 1 EUR and you win 99 cents back. That is the best money-making machine for a casino that can be. And it has 99 % RTP :).

By a simple logic it would seem that the higher the variance, the more advantageous a slot is for a player. But unless I am mistaken - and I would be happy to hear an expert comment on this - the profit of casinos does not equal the house hedge. It is actually much higher because the player, unlike the casino, does not have unlimited funds. So the player often busts before getting the bonus round on slots, for example.

So if a slot's variance is too high, the players may - in theory - never (or it may take them 50 years, which is "never" for all practical purposes) reach the 100 000x bet bonus round (an extreme example) and the casino may make much more money from such slot than from a slot with a lower variance.

I think it is called "hold" what the casinos actually earn as a profit.

And I would assume that some kind of a perfect balance between variance and the casino's "hold" is the most important financial aspect in slot design and that these are the games on which the casino makes a profit while giving the players the feeling (actually the experience) that they have a decent chance of winning something worthwhile from time to time.

And I think that this is the main reason why players like some slots much more than others, even if they have the same TRTP.

My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?
 
My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?

In the short term, yes. It's called the "hold" or "rake". If you put $100 in to a slot and play to extinction (i.e you always lose) then the hold is 100%. Gross profit is the main factor.

See below vvvvv for a much better explanation by CaptainRizk ;)
 
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To answer some fo your questions about casino operations please see below

I am not sure if your post was directed at me but

1) The former problem with the Frankenstein slot is a FACT, not a theory; it's just that we do not know any details about it. I used it to illustrate that ANYTHING can happen even with slots from reputable providers. Whether it was intentional or unintentional, we can only speculate.

2) I think the math behind variance and how much money the casino makes (and therefore how much money the player loses) is quite important and just as interesting as the math behind the mechanics of slot - actually these mathematical aspects must be closely related in slot design.

My point was that at one end of a spectrum you could have a slot that had 0 variance. You bet 1 EUR and you win 99 cents back. That is the best money-making machine for a casino that can be. And it has 99 % RTP :).

yes you are correct this would be the ultimate from our point of view but then no-one would play and therefore we would not make any money at all.

By a simple logic it would seem that the higher the variance, the more advantageous a slot is for a player. But unless I am mistaken - and I would be happy to hear an expert comment on this - the profit of casinos does not equal the house hedge. It is actually much higher because the player, unlike the casino, does not have unlimited funds. So the player often busts before getting the bonus round on slots, for example.

No this is not correct, our GROSS profit is the house edge - although this will depend upon the volume of bets on different games that all have different RTPs, but generally the Gross profit is the total amount played (turnover) multiplied by the average Margin or RTP

So if a slot's variance is too high, the players may - in theory - never (or it may take them 50 years, which is "never" for all practical purposes) reach the 100 000x bet bonus round (an extreme example) and the casino may make much more money from such slot than from a slot with a lower variance.

This is true only if you are talking about one player and his/her big win does not hit early. This is the beauty of variance and, as Trancemonkey has been explaining, because each spin is an independent and random event it is just as likely to hit on the first spin as it is to hit on the 1,000,000,000th spin, it is all down to probability. Therefore it follows that from a casino point of view when you have 1000's of players playing the same game those bigger hits come more frequently even though more players lose their balance more quickly due to variance and volatility and therefore the casino edge is still the RTP. The ONLY way that we can make more money is to get more players to play and retain the ones that have played with us previously.

I think it is called "hold" what the casinos actually earn as a profit.

Casino Hold is a theoretical value and cannot be used only as a guide but cannot be used to calculate anything other than between when a casino opens and a casino closes. There is always money being deposited and not withdrawn by players in a casino and you can never know whether the money that is currently invested will be withdrawn, played to extinction, partially withdrawn or even when either one of those two events will happen or if indeed it will ever happen. For example we had a player last March that won $20 with his No Deposit Free Spins, the money was left on his account until a week or so ago, the player came back and then turned this into $30,000+ and then withdrew. So when can we calculate our hold? Daily? Weekly? Monthly? Quarterly? Annually? This is the reason that all listed Gaming Companies report revenues based on Gross Gaming Revenue which then trickle down to Net Revenues and EBIT figures

And I would assume that some kind of a perfect balance between variance and the casino's "hold" is the most important financial aspect in slot design and that these are the games on which the casino makes a profit while giving the players the feeling (actually the experience) that they have a decent chance of winning something worthwhile from time to time.

The basice difference to players between high variance slots and low variance slots is that a player can hit a big win in one go on a high variance slot and therefore only need to get lucky once in a session. To win with lower variance games then you have to be lucky over a longer period in a session to beat the RTP. However the base line for us as Operators is that it is ALWAYS the RTP that is important and that we provide games that have a mix between different volatilities to cater for a wider range of players in order to retain them.

And I think that this is the main reason why players like some slots much more than others, even if they have the same TRTP.

My question is: Am I right in assuming that a casino makes a higher profit from slots (or any casino game for that matter) than the house hedge?
 
Hope i am not too late to the party. Bloody good read so far thanks a lot.

I wanted to jump back to your point about the randomness of bonus round selections when you talked about Secret of the Stones.

I'll put one example first. I was playing Plants v Zombies and won the pick bonus (cant remember exactly which one) where you make one of four selections.
I made my pick was an x times bet win.. seen one of the four was the progressive when they revealed after my selection then the game crashed when trying to go back to the normal game. Reloaded the game and i was back in the feature again. I picked the spot that had the progressive and of course got my same win as i had the first time. I knew this in my head really and also was thinking if i do win the progressive second time around then i have no chance of getting that paid out.

So my question(s)

At what point is it decided what you will get? In my example did i ever have a chance of winning the progressive or was that determined as soon as the bonus rolled in?

Looking at Secret Stones, what advantage is there to the game picking the bonus (i assume this is random) before you make your selection? In that game the same options are available to pick all the time, so surely if they let you pick what you want then over time the RTP will be as they wanted? Or is this some sort of protection against people resetting the game?
 
Do you play a lot though? Let's say you have launched a slot machine a total of 5,000 times that means you have had 5,000 last spins, if you never got a bonus round or free spins on those 5,000 you would say it is rigged yet when you do get a bonus round you think it is rigged. As Trancemonkey says it is all about perception and what you remember from a session.

For all you know, unless you log your games, you may never have had a win on your 182nd spin on any session, that would be strange but you would never notice it so it is not an issue.

Actually I made around 4000 spins at €2 and €4 spins....got nothing...lowered bet to my last cents around 60 cent and got a 500x free spins win instantly...then again...same session....lowered to my last cents got free spins instantly..but this time not that big feature...can only be a built in "rigged" programming.....its easier to win Mega Jackpot on Mega Fortune twice in a row I believe....Ive seen this pattern soo many times during the years... Just cant be random, doesnt matter if anyone denies it...its just not random....

If I happen to make one €1 spin and hit a €10,000 win......then I do 9,999 spins on €1 and none of them win anything...people here would say its nothing wrong because Ive almost 100% average payout... So it doesnt matter how rigged something really is, it will never be proven to be rigged here....
 
So my question(s)

At what point is it decided what you will get? In my example did i ever have a chance of winning the progressive or was that determined as soon as the bonus rolled in?

Looking at Secret Stones, what advantage is there to the game picking the bonus (i assume this is random) before you make your selection? In that game the same options are available to pick all the time, so surely if they let you pick what you want then over time the RTP will be as they wanted? Or is this some sort of protection against people resetting the game?

To answer your first point, it's normally at the point you pressed the start button to spin the reels to get the bonus. Some providers might wait until after the reels have spun and the bonus is shown (but obviously before you can interact with the game) - depends how the games are coded. The server needs to know the outcome of the game so that it can restore it properly. To be honest, if a game crashes AFTER a player interaction, i would normally insist the game restores to AFTER the interaction part (where possible) to stop this exact scenario.

Re: SOTS - The options are there for the player to pick because of player psychologically - our job is to make you think you were unlucky with those picks...
 
To answer your first point, it's normally at the point you pressed the start button to spin the reels to get the bonus. Some providers might wait until after the reels have spun and the bonus is shown (but obviously before you can interact with the game) - depends how the games are coded. The server needs to know the outcome of the game so that it can restore it properly. To be honest, if a game crashes AFTER a player interaction, i would normally insist the game restores to AFTER the interaction part (where possible) to stop this exact scenario.

Re: SOTS - The options are there for the player to pick because of player psychologically - our job is to make you think you were unlucky with those picks...

Thanks for the response.

All those times i got 'start free spins' first pick on moonshine and i was blaming myself and it was the f*cking game the whole time!
i think you just ruined all those selection type games for me! :)
 
Actually I made around 4000 spins at €2 and €4 spins....got nothing...lowered bet to my last cents around 60 cent and got a 500x free spins win instantly...then again...same session....lowered to my last cents got free spins instantly..but this time not that big feature...can only be a built in "rigged" programming.....its easier to win Mega Jackpot on Mega Fortune twice in a row I believe....Ive seen this pattern soo many times during the years... Just cant be random, doesnt matter if anyone denies it...its just not random....

If I happen to make one €1 spin and hit a €10,000 win......then I do 9,999 spins on €1 and none of them win anything...people here would say its nothing wrong because Ive almost 100% average payout... So it doesnt matter how rigged something really is, it will never be proven to be rigged here....

It's not rigged. You were lucky.

Keep a spreadsheet of every game you play... better still get Slot Tracker when it comes out... and record the amount of times ithat happens.

Plus if it IS rigged, just put £5 in and have one spin at £5. Withdraw your enormous win and repeat this process.

I'm sorry .. that's flippant, but whether your mind can be changed or not you are wrong... and I'd say I'm 99.99% certain about that... because if you're right, and it purposely gave you 500x on your last spin, that means it purposely took over 500x off you in order to do it.
 
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