Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

So max payout of Bonanza can be 200x30x20x20 = 2.4 milion? (200 way diamonds in 20 fs multiplier and with the 20 max bet)

Remember this casino (VS) has no max payout limit in terms.

I very much doubt it... if they have any sense they'll have different reel bands for each multiplier level. And even if not I guarantee you from years of doing games that it doesnt have a pay out of anywhere near that much.... just like you cant get 243 ways of diamonds on twin spin...

 

[Captain Rizk]

Anyway, here's one TranceMonkey. Exposure to risk and maximum bets.

I know this has been touched on before but I see so many games (let's take Immortal Romance and Thunderstruck II as examples) where often, the maximum bet is as low as $6.

This is presumably because of the Wild Reels features where you could win very big but a) this is likely to be incredibly rare, b) the game has a house edge anyway.

Dead Or Alive seems to be a case where this hasn't had a major impact (max bets are usually $18) and yet it probably produces the most 3,000x + wins we see. I can't ever remember seeing a 3000x on Great Blue, IR or TS2 (sure it has happened on a very rare occasion).

So my question: as a developer, does designing an HV game with wins over 1000x limit the exposure and bet limits to such a degree that the game will only ever generate significant revenue if it becomes a cult classic like Great Blue (where many casinos max out at $.250 a spin!!!) and if so, can the developer insure the game and offer the casino a safety net (loan)?

This is quite often down to the Operator too. As Trancemonkey says the 3rd party provider can develop the game to have a wide range of max bets but ultimately it is the Operator that needs to be comfortable with the level of exposure.

Take the following 2 examples:

Pyramid: Quest for Immortality from Net Ent. before this was launched we were informed by them that this game has an extremely high theoretical possibility for a maximum coincinding win of 3,600,000 coins iirc. Therefore someone spinning at £€10 per spin (£€1 per coin) could theoretically win £€3.6million.... Net Ent had not triggered this win during their testing but they knew that it was theoretically possible and therefore had an obligation to ensure the Operator was comfortable - they calculated that the odds of this win being triggered was roughly equivalent to every single Net Ent employee in every office in the worl dying from a heart attack at the exact same time.

Once i understood this, i was happy with our exposure.....

Alchymedes - Yggdrasil.

Before the game launch Yggdrasil informed us that the max win on this game is 10,000 x stake and (whilst the probability of this happen is a micro %) they were going to set a default max bet of €60 but there were other options up to €150 available should we want. We are of course aware that bigger players want to play higher stakes than €60 per spin and so agreed that our max bet would be €90 per spin so that we were comfortable with a the max win should this happen.

Hope this helps

 

[stokes]

All roulette is random - it has to be by law in every jurisdiction i know...
Roulette has a natural payback of 36/37 = 97.2972% - it doesn't need to be controlled.
American roulette (double 0) has a payback of 36/38 = 94.7368%.

Roulette is as volatile as the player decides to make it... if you want to bet $50 on number 11 all the time, the game is going to be very very volatile, with a win only 1 in 37 win frequency (on average). If you spread your bets over lots of numbers, the game will be less volatile.

Why do you think roulette, which is intrinsically a game of pure maths, would not hit RTP? I don't understand why people still think FOBT's are rigged - roulette GUARANTEES it will pay out the exact designed percentage over time - it's pure maths. There is ZERO reason to rig it...

If we want to make more money from the players through roulette, we can just force American roulette on you at 94.7368%....

I did not say the roulette would be rigged.

I am not a mathematician, so bear with me if what I suggest is not correct, but I think the theoretical RTP is reached only if you assume that the bets are equally distributed in a long run (e.g. all the numbers are covered with the same weight each spin) which I don't think the case with roulette. For example normally I play favourite numbers (the numbers come frequently during last couple of spins) which would only cover like 3 numbers and I change them frequently and I also change the bet size, so I don't see how the RTP would reach the theoretical value.

That is why I thought the online version of the roulette works like a slot to be able to reach the RTP.

If you check Videoslots statistics

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(search for roulette) almost none of them near to the theoretical RTP (if you select all time, which is a couple of years if I am not mistaken).

 

[trancemonkey]

Pyramid: Quest for Immortality from Net Ent. before this was launched we were informed by them that this game has an extremely high theoretical possibility for a maximum coincinding win of 3,600,000 coins iirc. Therefore someone spinning at £€10 per spin (£€1 per coin) could theoretically win £€3.6million.... Net Ent had not triggered this win during their testing but they knew that it was theoretically possible and therefore had an obligation to ensure the Operator was comfortable - they calculated that the odds of this win being triggered was roughly equivalent to every single Net Ent employee in every office in the worl dying from a heart attack at the exact same time.

Once i understood this, i was happy with our exposure.....

You just know that this is going to happen to you this weekend now right?

 

[interlog]

You just know that this is going to happen to you this weekend now right?

More chance of winning the lottery then

 

[BrianGhattas]

NetEnt CEO and one of the NetEnt producers i spoke to recently said they haven't changed the maths on any HTML5 conversion.

I see. With the news that Casumo is now disallowing Dead or Alive for wagering, maybe they're telling the truth.

 

[brianmon]

I see. With the news that Casumo is now disallowing Dead or Alive for wagering, maybe they're telling the truth.

I doubt NetEnt would ever admit to changing anything. Why would they want that leaked to players?

But one thing i have noticed about the HTML5 version, it's even better at grinding WR than the original.

Last time I played I got just over 5800 x 0.27 spins from a starting balance of 60.00. my balance only ever peaked at 125.00, so it's not like there were any huge wins to help me through. So that would have been over 1,500.00 wagering at a cost of only 60.00

maybe that's why DOA is being added to more restricted play lists

 

[trancemonkey]

More chance of winning the lottery then

I did not say the roulette would be rigged.

I am not a mathematician, so bear with me if what I suggest is not correct, but I think the theoretical RTP is reached only if you assume that the bets are equally distributed in a long run (e.g. all the numbers are covered with the same weight each spin) which I don't think the case with roulette. For example normally I play favourite numbers (the numbers come frequently during last couple of spins) which would only cover like 3 numbers and I change them frequently and I also change the bet size, so I don't see how the RTP would reach the theoretical value.

That is why I thought the online version of the roulette works like a slot to be able to reach the RTP.

If you check Videoslots statistics

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

(search for roulette) almost none of them near to the theoretical RTP (if you select all time, which is a couple of years if I am not mistaken).

But that RTP is for everyone regardless of bet size. For example, if one guy comes in and puts 100 on 11 and wins, he takes 3600. If he then stops playing, the game is running at 3600% RTP. It's going to take a lot of people playing at small bets to get that RTP back down. We break the RTP down to by stake on our meters as it's much more accurate.

On roulette, the distribution of bets is irrelevant. Every bet has the same RTP. The only thing that affects the RTP is the volatility each player decides to go with, size of bet, and luck!

 

[nikantw]

So max payout of Bonanza can be 200x30x20x20 = 2.4 milion? (200 way diamonds in 20 fs multiplier and with the 20 max bet)

Remember this casino (VS) has no max payout limit in terms.

Ooops, I got confused and underestimated that all the time! A way diamonds pay 50x in Bonanza!

 

[BeardyGuts]

This is quite often down to the Operator too. As Trancemonkey says the 3rd party provider can develop the game to have a wide range of max bets but ultimately it is the Operator that needs to be comfortable with the level of exposure.

Take the following 2 examples:

Pyramid: Quest for Immortality from Net Ent. before this was launched we were informed by them that this game has an extremely high theoretical possibility for a maximum coincinding win of 3,600,000 coins iirc. Therefore someone spinning at £€10 per spin (£€1 per coin) could theoretically win £€3.6million.... Net Ent had not triggered this win during their testing but they knew that it was theoretically possible and therefore had an obligation to ensure the Operator was comfortable - they calculated that the odds of this win being triggered was roughly equivalent to every single Net Ent employee in every office in the worl dying from a heart attack at the exact same time.

Once i understood this, i was happy with our exposure.....

Alchymedes - Yggdrasil.

Before the game launch Yggdrasil informed us that the max win on this game is 10,000 x stake and (whilst the probability of this happen is a micro %) they were going to set a default max bet of €60 but there were other options up to €150 available should we want. We are of course aware that bigger players want to play higher stakes than €60 per spin and so agreed that our max bet would be €90 per spin so that we were comfortable with a the max win should this happen.

Hope this helps

Hi Captain!
Question for you.... maybe you cant answer... but can a casino insure themselves against these ridiculously low chance max wins but for what is i guess a crippling amount if someone does manage it at a high bet level?

Also is there a regulation that says how much cash versus active players you need to hold at any time?

 

[nikantw]

This is quite often down to the Operator too. As Trancemonkey says the 3rd party provider can develop the game to have a wide range of max bets but ultimately it is the Operator that needs to be comfortable with the level of exposure.

Take the following 2 examples:

Pyramid: Quest for Immortality from Net Ent. before this was launched we were informed by them that this game has an extremely high theoretical possibility for a maximum coincinding win of 3,600,000 coins iirc. Therefore someone spinning at £€10 per spin (£€1 per coin) could theoretically win £€3.6million.... Net Ent had not triggered this win during their testing but they knew that it was theoretically possible and therefore had an obligation to ensure the Operator was comfortable - they calculated that the odds of this win being triggered was roughly equivalent to every single Net Ent employee in every office in the worl dying from a heart attack at the exact same time.

Once i understood this, i was happy with our exposure.....

Alchymedes - Yggdrasil.

Before the game launch Yggdrasil informed us that the max win on this game is 10,000 x stake and (whilst the probability of this happen is a micro %) they were going to set a default max bet of €60 but there were other options up to €150 available should we want. We are of course aware that bigger players want to play higher stakes than €60 per spin and so agreed that our max bet would be €90 per spin so that we were comfortable with a the max win should this happen.

Hope this helps

Thank you! I was trying to get information like that all day.

You don’t have BTG games so I don’t believe you can give some numbers about the true potential of Bonanza, could you?

On the topic of true potential, I believe that information with a picture about the max paying combination of a slot and the chances of that happening should be available on game info pages (or better, 3 out of 10 best winning combinations). I think it is very important for fair play.
What are your thoughts about that?

Also I have a question about the caped max payout, like the 250k in rhino. I don’t understand how this is ok and fair and within regulations. If the game is fair it has the same behavior (same chances for the same winning combination) and TRTP on any bet level. If a casino accepts high bets but doesn’t pay high wins doesn’t it mean lower TRTP as the bet gets bigger? Either that or they change the variance (lower for higher bets) to keep TRTP the same.

If a game behaves the same on any bet level, capping the winnings is like saying “I will take the bet but I won’t pay if you win.”

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you! I was trying to get information like that all day.

You don’t have BTG games so I don’t believe you can give some numbers about the true potential of Bonanza, could you?

On the topic of true potential, I believe that information with a picture about the max paying combination of a slot and the chances of that happening should be available on game info pages (or better, 3 out of 10 best winning combinations). I think it is very important for fair play.
What are your thoughts about that?

Also I have a question about the caped max payout, like the 250k in rhino. I don’t understand how this is ok and fair and within regulations. If the game is fair it has the same behavior (same chances for the same winning combination) and TRTP on any bet level. If a casino accepts high bets but doesn’t pay high wins doesn’t it mean lower TRTP as the bet gets bigger? Either that or they change the variance (lower for higher bets) to keep TRTP the same.

If a game behaves the same on any bet level, capping the winnings is like saying “I will take the bet but I won’t pay if you win.”

Interesting question.... in most jurisdictions capping is allowable as long as the capping didn't cause a huge change in the TRTP. There have been times where we have had to change the payout of the game at certain bet sizes to take in to account capping so that the TRTP was very close to that without capping although this is only normally a problem with jurisdictions with a maximum LEGAL prize. Online this isn't the case of course, but as far as I'm aware as long as you tell the player the RTP and the maximum prize cap, then it is allowable for the game to cap even if this does affect the RTP as the game provider and casino have given the player the information needed to allow them to make an informed decision. Of course, it is also the responsibility of the casino to make sure they don't have a high Max bet and low max prize as that would be unfair

 

[orion]

this is by far the best thread ever

actually I am at page 19 and I'll ask something later on when on par.

but I would like to thank a lot trancemonkey first for his availability, capt rizk second for his joining with interesting addings from casino's point of view, and also all the players who are asking interesting questions

please go ahead !

 

[videoslotheaven]

You just know that this is going to happen to you this weekend now right?

On the game I'm working on at the moment there is a theoretical maximum of 7000x. The chance, every time you press start is 1 in 64,236,354,000....

This is quite often down to the Operator too. As Trancemonkey says the 3rd party provider can develop the game to have a wide range of max bets but ultimately it is the Operator that needs to be comfortable with the level of exposure.

Take the following 2 examples:

Pyramid: Quest for Immortality from Net Ent. before this was launched we were informed by them that this game has an extremely high theoretical possibility for a maximum coincinding win of 3,600,000 coins iirc. Therefore someone spinning at £€10 per spin (£€1 per coin) could theoretically win £€3.6million.... Net Ent had not triggered this win during their testing but they knew that it was theoretically possible and therefore had an obligation to ensure the Operator was comfortable - they calculated that the odds of this win being triggered was roughly equivalent to every single Net Ent employee in every office in the worl dying from a heart attack at the exact same time.

Once i understood this, i was happy with our exposure.....

Alchymedes - Yggdrasil.

Before the game launch Yggdrasil informed us that the max win on this game is 10,000 x stake and (whilst the probability of this happen is a micro %) they were going to set a default max bet of €60 but there were other options up to €150 available should we want. We are of course aware that bigger players want to play higher stakes than €60 per spin and so agreed that our max bet would be €90 per spin so that we were comfortable with a the max win should this happen.

Hope this helps

But with the odds that you state here that makes these games "rigged" if the max win is so unbelivably unlikley arent that false advertistment?

Fore example the lottery here every saturday is 1/5,4 millon. Then you tell me the odds of winning 7000x stake on your game is 1/ 63 billion... And then the max win on pyramide quest is basicly unachivable......

lmaooo this thread made me really want to give up gambling as the odds are clearly waaaaaaay worse than i tought.

No wonder there are no screenshots of certain wins on certain slots as the odds are 1 in billions. Lolll this is why they dont state the odds on the certain winning combinations because if they didd nobody would play.

 

[trancemonkey]

But with the odds that you state here that makes these games "rigged" if the max win is so unbelivably unlikley arent that false advertistment?

Fore example the lottery here every saturday is 1/5,4 millon. Then you tell me the odds of winning 7000x stake on your game is 1/ 63 billion... And then the max win on pyramide quest is basicly unachivable......

lmaooo this thread made me really want to give up gambling as the odds are clearly waaaaaaay worse than i tought.

No wonder there are no screenshots of certain wins on certain slots as the odds are 1 in billions. Lolll this is why they dont state the odds on the certain winning combinations because if they didd nobody would play.

The games aren't rigged. You're misunderstanding the statistical control of slots and random in general.

For example, take DoA... you could in theory fill all 15 wild positions in the first three free spins and then have 14 free spins each with 10 wild lines. So the theoretical maximum is enormous... but the chance of it happening would probably be trillions to 1. This doesn't mare it rigged... it just makes it extremely unlikely to happen...

Look at it another way too... you could in theory toss a coin and get heads 1000 times in a row. It's a random toss right? But I guarantee you that even if you did that exercise for the next billion years it would never happen. The coin toss isn't rigged though is it?

 

[interlog]

The games aren't rigged. You're misunderstanding the statistical control of slots and random in general.

For example, take DoA... you could in theory fill all 15 wild positions in the first three free spins and then have 14 free spins each with 10 wild lines. So the theoretical maximum is enormous... but the chance of it happening would probably be trillions to 1. This doesn't mare it rigged... it just makes it extremely unlikely to happen...

Look at it another way too... you could in theory toss a coin and get heads 1000 times in a row. It's a random toss right? But I guarantee you that even if you did that exercise for the next billion years it would never happen. The coin toss isn't rigged though is it?

That is all good and well, but a few posts ago you did say that games can be legally capped in terms of pay out. So there is always the option that there is some programming going on in the background that prohibits even the biggest possible of win to appear on screen?

 

[trancemonkey]

That is all good and well, but a few posts ago you did say that games can be legally capped in terms of pay out. So there is always the option that there is some programming going on in the background that prohibits even the biggest possible of win to appear on screen?

Not at all... games can (and do) display wins bigger than the max casino payout. If we capped the win in the code, that would be illegal as the outcome of the game wouldn't be random. The game doesn't know about the cap in terms of determining the outcome of a game - dont get the two confused.

 

[interlog]

Not at all... games can (and do) display wins bigger than the max casino payout. If we capped the win in the code, that would be illegal as the outcome of the game wouldn't be random. The game doesn't know about the cap in terms of determining the outcome of a game - dont get the two confused.

Perhaps it was your phrasing, but I interpreted your "then it is allowable for the game to cap even if this does affect the RTP" that it would never give out a winning combination that would exceed the maximum when spinning £150 a spin but would give that combination when spinning at £1 a spin.

Unless you mean that the game would still display the win but wouldn't pay out more than the max?

 

[videoslotheaven]

To clarify what i ment with rigged is an event that is so unlikley it will never happen. Why even bother to program a game and advertise a winning combination that is so unlikley it will never happen.

 

[aceking123]

another question) this one is pointed to you as you work for this company )

why does igt online slots feel unnatural when playing them ?

they have really good slots in bricks & mortar , but the online games are just so damn poor really crap pays & why is a 10x bet considered as a big win , i feel (as many do) get away from this kinda crap , build a slot to where it starts from at least 25x bet before telling players theyve won big.

Also why is it so hard to hit any features on the games mainly ive found them to be lacking in good payouts in normal game mode , features are another subject , they hardly pay anything going by my play , you really dont see that many screen shots online of these games paying much , purely down to the maths behind these games.

any thoughts on this ???

 

[trancemonkey]

To clarify what i ment with rigged is an event that is so unlikley it will never happen. Why even bothet to program a game and advertise a win ing combination that is so unlikley it will never happen.

Because we have to when a game is random... why would I NOT allow it to happen? Do you know what the maximum theoretical win is on Rhino? I don't... but I bet the chance of it happening is extremely low.

How many people have you seen get the maximum win on Twin Spin... I've never seen it on YouTube.

We don't purposefully design wins in to a game that are hard to get... they just come as a byproduct of the rest of the game design... see my explanation about the theoretical maximum on DOA...

I don't see you calling that game rigged

 

[trancemonkey]

another question) this one is pointed to you as you work for this company )

why does igt online slots feel unnatural when playing them ?

they have really good slots in bricks & mortar , but the online games are just so damn poor really crap pays & why is a 10x bet considered as a big win , i feel (as many do) get away from this kinda crap , build a slot to where it starts from at least 25x bet before telling players theyve won big.

Also why is it so hard to hit any features on the games mainly ive found them to be lacking in good payouts in normal game mode , features are another subject , they hardly pay anything going by my play , you really dont see that many screen shots online of these games paying much , purely down to the maths behind these games.

any thoughts on this ???

It's not always easy to port games from B&M to online - and sometimes people get it wrong.

 

[interlog]

Talking about B&M -v- online.

Not sure if you're familiar with Ruby Slippers by WMS? At a B&M casino you can get up to 5 wild reels during the ruby slippers feature whilst online it is a max of 4 wild reels.

You mentioned that the maths are better changed when porting it over. What do you mean with this? Make the slots looser, tighter?

 

[BrianGhattas]

Play 'n Go was reported to have different RTG numbers for the different casinos that offer their games. Is it possible for this to occur? It does sound realistic as land based casinos can set their slots to different percentages.

 

[aceking123]

good to know that some changes are making there way excellent stuff )

I know pharaohs fortune , land based game was pretty good when i was back playing it , online it seems as the pay-lines have dropped to 15 ( think it was 20 or 25 land based ) & Cleopatra was another ok machine land based (im thinking these are IGT ), is seems like they just couldn't be bothered to redo the maths for online , do you know if pharaohs slot just had the lines cut to meet online without doing other things to it?

they're missing a big market by not investing into online games, instead just churning out turds all the time.

 

[videoslotheaven]

Because we have to when a game is random... why would I NOT allow it to happen? Do you know what the maximum theoretical win is on Rhino? I don't... but I bet the chance of it happening is extremely low.

How many people have you seen get the maximum win on Twin Spin... I've never seen it on YouTube.

We don't purposefully design wins in to a game that are hard to get... they just come as a byproduct of the rest of the game design... see my explanation about the theoretical maximum on DOA...

I don't see you calling that game rigged

Doa also.. we all know full screen on doa is not possible. I had 3 -4spotts missing and magicly it misses every spot that would significantley increase the win. I think doa is capped/max win is 10000x stake.

But the odds on doa are allot better. The 5 wild retrigger happens 1/52 free spins. Free spins 1/150 so 1/7800 for the retrigger. And i would estimate wildline about 1/5 retriggers, so about 1/39000 fore a wildline?
Ofcourse the bigger the x stake win the more unlikley but doa is probably the game with the best odds on the top price.
And thats the reason its bonus banned.

As you say never seen the top price on twin spin or wonkey wabbits fore example. Because obviously the odds are terrible. Keep in mind doa is an old game. To be honest i think we never will see a game with these kind of odds again as most casinos dont like it.

 

[Simmo!]

Talking about B&M -v- online.

Not sure if you're familiar with Ruby Slippers by WMS? At a B&M casino you can get up to 5 wild reels during the ruby slippers feature whilst online it is a max of 4 wild reels.

I've never seen a B&M version that has a higher maximum bet than $3 though where online you can bet a lot higher. Suspect it's a risk of exposure thingand probably a very good example of (what Trancemonkey has just been saying about) how online expectations are different.

 

[trancemonkey]

Play 'n Go was reported to have different RTG numbers for the different casinos that offer their games. Is it possible for this to occur? It does sound realistic as land based casinos can set their slots to different percentages.

Yeah... different RTPs are available for some providers.

 

[videoslotheaven]

So in a sence doa is also "rigged" but doa does not advertise a full screen as the top price. Like fore example games like: Pyramide quest fore immortality, wonky wabbits, dragon born, queen of riches.

These games advertise a win that is so unlikley it will never happen. Thats my point and thats what makes them "rigged".

 

[trancemonkey]

Talking about B&M -v- online.

Not sure if you're familiar with Ruby Slippers by WMS? At a B&M casino you can get up to 5 wild reels during the ruby slippers feature whilst online it is a max of 4 wild reels.

You mentioned that the maths are better changed when porting it over. What do you mean with this? Make the slots looser, tighter?

Well online runs at a much higher RTP so the games are naturally better... but take blue print... offline their games don't pay for 2 of a kind wins. But online they do.

 

[trancemonkey]

So in a sence doa is also "rigged" but doa does not advertise a full screen as the top price. Like fore example games like: Pyramide quest fore immortality, wonky wabbits, dragon born, queen of riches.

These games advertise a win that is so unlikley it will never happen. Thats my point and thats what makes them "rigged".

I don't advertise a 7000x win anywhere either... or for that matter any win over 5 of a kind wild.

 

[trancemonkey]

good to know that some changes are making there way excellent stuff )

I know pharaohs fortune , land based game was pretty good when i was back playing it , online it seems as the pay-lines have dropped to 15 ( think it was 20 or 25 land based ) & Cleopatra was another ok machine land based (im thinking these are IGT ), is seems like they just couldn't be bothered to redo the maths for online , do you know if pharaohs slot just had the lines cut to meet online without doing other things to it?

they're missing a big market by not investing into online games, instead just churning out turds all the time.

As I said, more care will be taken in future with regards to localisation of retail games to online....

 

[trancemonkey]

I've never seen a B&M version that has a higher maximum bet than $3 though where online you can bet a lot higher. Suspect it's a risk of exposure thingand probably a very good example of (what Trancemonkey has just been saying about) how online expectations are different.

In Vegas you can get machines that are $500 denomination with 3 lines and up to $25 denominations with 20 line games ($1000 a spin!)

 

[trancemonkey]

So in a sence doa is also "rigged" but doa does not advertise a full screen as the top price. Like fore example games like: Pyramide quest fore immortality, wonky wabbits, dragon born, queen of riches.

These games advertise a win that is so unlikley it will never happen. Thats my point and thats what makes them "rigged".

I wholeheartedly disagree... rigged (to me) is purposely making things harder / easier to get. Having things that are mathematically unlikely but still have the same chance every spin of happening, however unlikely, is not rigged.

Would you consider roulette rigged? The chance of the same number appearing 6 spins on the trot is 1 in 2.17billion. Why don't you consider that rigged? It's never going to happen....

 

[brianmon]

Doa also.. we all know full screen on doa is not possible. I had 3 -4spotts missing and magicly it misses every spot that would significantley increase the win. I think doa is capped/max win is 10000x stake.

I got 10,143x stake and 13 wilds. So if DOA is capped, it's higher than 10,000

 

[orion]

I've never seen a B&M version that has a higher maximum bet than $3 though where online you can bet a lot higher. Suspect it's a risk of exposure thingand probably a very good example of (what Trancemonkey has just been saying about) how online expectations are different.

If you are talking about RubySlippers WMS, in Venice CaNoghera you can play 4€ max but the game has 40 fixed lines.

 

[Simmo!]

In Vegas you can get machines that are $500 denomination with 3 lines and up to $25 denominations with 20 line games ($1000 a spin!)

Of Ruby Slippers? Wow. That's a staggering exposure to risk but I guess they are B&Ms so it's not like they have the cash I guess.

 

[orion]

ok, here you are my (first) question.

I am italian and I do live in Italy.
Italy is a regulamented market as you certainly know.

As far as you know, any slot has ever been SLIGHTLY modified in its features / its design / its TRTP to suit the specific needs of a regulamented market ?

(and NO, I am not meaning about slots like JP or Terminator where there could be some issues with Movie or Brand)

 

[trancemonkey]

Of Ruby Slippers? Wow. That's a staggering exposure to risk but I guess they are B&Ms so it's not like they have the cash I guess.

I'm talking about slots in general not just Wirard of Oz... but the casinos in Vegas have a much higher max liability than most online casinos. Especially in the High Roller areas

 

[trancemonkey]

ok, here you are my (first) question.

I am italian and I do live in Italy.
Italy is a regulamented market as you certainly know.

As far as you know, any slot has ever been SLIGHTLY modified in its features / its design / its TRTP to suit the specific needs of a regulamented market ?

(and NO, I am not meaning about slots like JP or Terminator where there could be some issues with Movie or Brand)

I assume your talking about VLT in Italy and not AWP.... but yes, games are modified for the market they are going in to where the market requires them to be... same as UK retail... the games are heavily modified from the online versions in most cases.

 

[slotter999]

I wholeheartedly disagree... rigged (to me) is purposely making things harder / easier to get. Having things that are mathematically unlikely but still have the same chance every spin of happening, however unlikely, is not rigged.

Would you consider roulette rigged? The chance of the same number appearing 6 spins on the trot is 1 in 2.17billion. Why don't you consider that rigged? It's never going to happen....

I understand the point the OP makes. The pyramid example will publish it's TRTP based on the possibility of all outcomes. But in reality many of those wins are incredibly unlikely to happen ever.....yet the TRTP will be published on the basis that it can happen. I imagine wonky wabbits and the theoretical 7 wilds is probably in this category as well.

So what is the 'real' TRTP I wonder for this particular game once you remove the unhitable stuff i.e. the 3.6mio coins. I imagine it's quite small but still. If I had to guess I'd imagine that the actual RTP for this slot is always below the TRTP.

 

[incrediblestuff]

I wholeheartedly disagree... rigged (to me) is purposely making things harder / easier to get. Having things that are mathematically unlikely but still have the same chance every spin of happening, however unlikely, is not rigged.

Would you consider roulette rigged? The chance of the same number appearing 6 spins on the trot is 1 in 2.17billion. Why don't you consider that rigged? It's never going to happen....

It did happen at least once:

The longest reliable series was registered at the hotel El San Chuan in Puerto Rico on 9 June 1959. During the course of the American Roulette, number ten occurred six times in a row

And as far as i know there's a bigger one - one recorded instance of a supposed test run in Vegas, churned out the same number, which was nr.19, which came - 7 - times in a row, but i think there have been plenty of examples, especially with Online Roulette

I checked a few articles and the reported odds on the 7 times hit, were 1:114 Billion!

Never say never

 

[trancemonkey]

I understand the point the OP makes. The pyramid example will publish it's TRTP based on the possibility of all outcomes. But in reality many of those wins are incredibly unlikely to happen ever.....yet the TRTP will be published on the basis that it can happen. I imagine wonky wabbits and the theoretical 7 wilds is probably in this category as well.

So what is the 'real' TRTP I wonder for this particular game once you remove the unhitable stuff i.e. the 3.6mio coins. I imagine it's quite small but still. If I had to guess I'd imagine that the actual RTP for this slot is always below the TRTP.

Well, if something is that rare it won't really affect the TRTP in any noticeable or probably even reportable way....

 

[trancemonkey]

It did happen at least once:


And as far as i know there's a bigger one - one recorded instance of a supposed test run in Vegas, churned out the same number, which was nr.19, which came - 7 - times in a row, but i think there have been plenty of examples, especially with Online Roulette

I checked a few articles and the reported odds on the 7 times hit, were 1:114 Billion!

Never say never

Exactly.. and that's the point. It's not rigged just because it's statistically unlikely... I'm unlikely to win the Powerball lottery in the USA... but it isn't rigged!

 

[Steviedoo]

Absolutely we do - sometimes the opposite is also true where we look at competitors machines and think "i wouldn't have done it like that, i'd have done it like this" - and then maybe we do it the better way

And yes, when i'm playing games i like i'm always trying to dissect the maths in my head. Part of the job....

If you're dissecting the maths...just wondering if you can figure out when the game is gonna hit with a win?

 

[nikantw]

But with the odds that you state here that makes these games "rigged" if the max win is so unbelivably unlikley arent that false advertistment?

Fore example the lottery here every saturday is 1/5,4 millon. Then you tell me the odds of winning 7000x stake on your game is 1/ 63 billion... And then the max win on pyramide quest is basicly unachivable......

lmaooo this thread made me really want to give up gambling as the odds are clearly waaaaaaay worse than i tought.

No wonder there are no screenshots of certain wins on certain slots as the odds are 1 in billions. Lolll this is why they dont state the odds on the certain winning combinations because if they didd nobody would play.

Generally speaking all lotteries are “rigged” to make you lose all your money. RTP of a lottery can be below 60% and keep in mind that most of that goes to the top prize you will never get. Playing a lottery you are just throwing away your money. So you can’t win 10000x bet on slots. Is playing with 97% RTP and winning an 800x of $125 bet so bad?

But yes, odds of top 3 winning combinations need to be added in game info.

 

[trancemonkey]

Generally speaking all lotteries are “rigged” to make you lose all your money. RTP of a lottery can be below 60% and keep in mind that most of that goes to the top prize you will never get. Playing a lottery you are just throwing away your money. So you can’t win 10000x bet on slots. Is playing with 97% RTP and winning an 800x of $125 bet so bad?

But yes, odds of top 3 winning combinations need to be added in game info.

If we had to do that I guarantee we would be taking out the unlikely high wins and making the maximum prizes a lot less...

And even if we didn't, would advertising the theoretical maximum prize and the odds of that help you? If you knew that the chance of the full screen of wilds in DoA after 3 spins was 1 in 48trillion, would you still play it?

I understand why you think it would be a good idea, but actually what you would do is cause us to alter our game designs to never have that "amazing" prize in it because we would be worried you wouldn't play it if the odds of the maximum theoretical win were too high... so you'd get low variance low max win slots. Certainly low max win...

I doubt that's what you actually want....

 

[trancemonkey]

If you're dissecting the maths...just wondering if you can figure out when the game is gonna hit with a win?

Not at all... they're random. All I can go is try and figure out averages and work back from the there....

 

[KasinoKing]

Do spins in demo mode affect overall payouts of the real money equivalent?
For example does somebody winning big(or losing big) on a slot with play money count towards the rtp of the same real money slot or are they run off different servers?

You obviously do not fully understand the concept of RTP. With online random slots, the RTP is NOT controlled - it is the result of maths.
EVERY spin is an independent random event - real or fun mode.

Sorry if someone already answered that - I'm just catching up on the last 100+ posts in this thread!

KK

 

[nikantw]

If we had to do that I guarantee we would be taking out the unlikely high wins and making the maximum prizes a lot less...

And even if we didn't, would advertising the theoretical maximum prize and the odds of that help you? If you knew that the chance of the full screen of wilds in DoA after 3 spins was 1 in 48trillion, would you still play it?

I understand why you think it would be a good idea, but actually what you would do is cause us to alter our game designs to never have that "amazing" prize in it because we would be worried you wouldn't play it if the odds of the maximum theoretical win were too high... so you'd get low variance low max win slots. Certainly low max win...

I doubt that's what you actually want....

You worry too much!
Didn’t you say almost nobody access the info pages? Put some more info for me and anybody else that wants it.

Put 3 out of 10 highest wins, or something like that. I just want confirmation that it is possible, because right now I am sure it isn’t. I don’t care that the odds are small, I know they are.
Do you see this, the reels from Avalon II (from an old forum member)?



That makes me happy, that makes me want to play it because I see a full screen of wilds possible.
Don’t care how difficult it is to get 15 wilds in DOA. But I do want to know if it is possible to get. And of course I want to know what are the odds of a wildline and how much you change the hit frequency of things inside a feature.

I will go back to Bonanza (sorry). Right now I am sure the odds for 20 or 30 way diamonds in free spins are 0. Not 1 in a trillion, just 0. That makes me stop playing it. Keeping the information for themselves only makes people sure they have something to hide. Tell me a 20 way diamonds is naturally* possible in base game and free spins and it will become my favorite slot. Don’t care if the odds are getting naturally* super small.

*Naturally: the deference in the odds from 10 way to 20 way is just the hit frequency of 2 instead of 1 same symbols in any row, or just like the diference from 1 way to 2 way.