Ask me anything (about slots)!

[Tourettesguy]

It's not rigged. You were lucky.

Keep a spreadsheet of every game you play... better still get Slot Tracker when it comes out... and record the amount of times ithat happens.

Plus if it IS rigged, just put £5 in and have one spin at £5. Withdraw your enormous win and repeat this process.

I'm sorry .. that's flippant, but whether your mind can be changed or not you are wrong... and I'd say I'm 99.99% certain about that... because if you're right, and it purposely gave you 500x on your last spin, that means it purposely took over 500x off you in order to do it.

If you are so smart you should know that trigger on last spin require 4000 halfdead spins without free spins feature first... Im 100% sure if I had €350 left in balance I would not got that free spin and the dead spins and no features would have continued until my last spin...now whne Im wring I remember this is happen often on Dragon Bron slot...and RTG and Microgaming slots too...you often get that only free spins very close on zero balance and you get balance up to around where you started...at Loose Cabose and Mithic Dragon slot which I played alot this happen often...from $500-800 i balance and nothing to below $10...and e feature getting you back up to starting balance....average payoput I dont doubt...just the randomness whne this feature come and the size of it...NOT random...it IS a bulit in feature of the slot/programming...

Remenber more games this has happen multiple times...Gonzo and Montezuma...ofeten on Gonzo you get that rare 20 free spin trigger plus retriggers...and that Montezuma free spin that retriggers multiple times...often close to end balance...if I sit here thing for 5 more minutes I can name more slots this has happen...its not just random luck...its a forced payout compensating by the slot machine..smooth out the gamestats....but well within safe zone...most plyers dont cashout $600 on a $500 deposit...so below $600 the slotmachine/casino can "give" "good" features and base game payouts....

 

[brianmon]

Questions

1. Is the RNG an integral part of each slot's program or is it a separate entity?

The MGS website states...
"The kernel responsible for our entire gaming logic is known as an RNG (Random Number Generator). Our RNG was set more than a decade ago, and over the years it has been checked and approved by the leading accredited testing agencies. "

Which seems to imply that there is a singular 'master' RNG serving all their games.

2. Are there many instances of a particular slot running on one, or between many servers, or is there one program serving all players? Obviously this might be different for the likes of MGS and NetEnt, compared to the smaller slot producers, and also how popular a particular slot is.

 

[trancemonkey]

If you are so smart you should know that trigger on last spin require 4000 halfdead spins without free spins feature first... Im 100% sure if I had €350 left in balance I would not got that free spin and the dead spins and no features would have continued until my last spin...now whne Im wring I remember this is happen often on Dragon Bron slot...and RTG and Microgaming slots too...you often get that only free spins very close on zero balance and you get balance up to around where you started...at Loose Cabose and Mithic Dragon slot which I played alot this happen often...from $500-800 i balance and nothing to below $10...and e feature getting you back up to starting balance....average payoput I dont doubt...just the randomness whne this feature come and the size of it...NOT random...it IS a bulit in feature of the slot/programming...

I'm not clever... I do this for a living... it's my job. I'm not getting involved in a tit for tat argument about whether I'm right or wrong. I'm telling you that as far as I know I have never seen nor heard of this. It would make no sense to do this, would be extremely illegal and utterly pointless unless the game was 100% compensated. Which it won't be.

If you don't believe me, then that's fine...

 

[brianmon]

If you are so smart you should know that trigger on last spin require 4000 halfdead spins without free spins feature first... Im 100% sure if I had €350 left in balance I would not got that free spin and the dead spins and no features would have continued until my last spin...now whne Im wring I remember this is happen often on Dragon Bron slot...and RTG and Microgaming slots too...you often get that only free spins very close on zero balance and you get balance up to around where you started...at Loose Cabose and Mithic Dragon slot which I played alot this happen often...from $500-800 i balance and nothing to below $10...and e feature getting you back up to starting balance....average payoput I dont doubt...just the randomness whne this feature come and the size of it...NOT random...it IS a bulit in feature of the slot/programming...

I must admit that when I got my 10,000x win on DOA. My balance had gone down to about €3 without a single bonus round.
Then i got 3 bonuses within about 20 spins. The first 2 paid next to nothing.
But the 3rd which occurred when my balance was at just €1.13, paid €1833.14 from an 18c spin.

 

[trancemonkey]

1. Is the RNG an integral part of each slot's program or is it a separate entity?

The MGS website states...
"The kernel responsible for our entire gaming logic is known as an RNG (Random Number Generator). Our RNG was set more than a decade ago, and over the years it has been checked and approved by the leading accredited testing agencies. "

Which seems to imply that there is a singular 'master' RNG serving all their games.

2. Are there many instances of a particular slot running on one, or between many servers, or is there one program serving all players? Obviously this might be different for the likes of MGS and NetEnt, compared to the smaller slot producers, and also how popular a particular slot is.

The RNG for any provider is normally licenced separately and is a seperate entity on the server. The game logic will ask the RNG for a number and then use that number (or numbers). Most use the simple Mersenne Twister system.

The game logic can, and does often run on multiple nodes or servers depending on the number of concurrent players - at least that was my experience so far

 

[Simmo!]

Going back to the point about reels landing quickly when a bonus is due, I think this may be more to do with the integration of games from certain providers with the software platforms that serve them. For example, I have noticed that this happens a lot on Quickfire with several providers including WMS and Microgaming yet doesn't happen on Microgaming's own GameAssists platform. At one point Quickfire was so bad I stopped playing at Qf-driven casinos although a recent return indicated that the problem is better, if not fully cured.

Back when Jackpot Party was around, the opposite was true, you would get a delay which was commensurate with the number of lines you were going to win on. This was most noticeable on MoneyBurst games like Bruce Lee because you often won on lots of lines simultaneously. Oddly, I came I like the 'tell' on WMS games like Rhino and Brucie but mot on MGS or other games.

 

[trancemonkey]

Going back to the point about reels landing quickly when a bonus is due, I think this may be more to do with the integration of games from certain providers with the software platforms that serve them. For example, I have noticed that this happens a lot on Quickfire with several providers including WMS and Microgaming yet doesn't happen on Microgaming's own GameAssists platform. At one point Quickfire was so bad I stopped playing at Qf-driven casinos although a recent return indicated that the problem is better, if not fully cured.

Back when Jackpot Party was around, the opposite was true, you would get a delay which was commensurate with the number of lines you were going to win on. This was most noticeable on MoneyBurst games like Bruce Lee because you often won on lots of lines simultaneously. Oddly, I came I like the 'tell' on WMS games like Rhino and Brucie but mot on MGS or other games.

I remember that on JPP. Used to love that site... was gutted when it closed Slots Magic isn't anywhere near the same

 

[aceking123]

Another question Trance )

Do all players that have a unique player id per casino get crossed checked in main servers RNG , if i have 15 accounts all with different names same names , same ip etc etc , would this all come under one individual account at the main host server , i know Bryan stated that we all play from the same servers so in theory it would not matter which casino i was playing at, there is the exception to this rule with regards to 32Red who use there own servers ?

So using geo location & ip would show the same player over many different casinos when sending any data to & from the main server for the casinos ?

 

[Jono777]

Great question AK!

I have started to (strongly) believe that personal/player IP plays a part (the size of that part I'm unsure) in a session, regardless of casino.

This ties in with my "slots remember" conspiracy theory also, will be interested to see the response on this one

 

[trancemonkey]

Another question Trance )

Do all players that have a unique player id per casino get crossed checked in main servers RNG , if i have 15 accounts all with different names same names , same ip etc etc , would this all come under one individual account at the main host server , i know Bryan stated that we all play from the same servers so in theory it would not matter which casino i was playing at, there is the exception to this rule with regards to 32Red who use there own servers ?

So using geo location & ip would show the same player over many different casinos when sending any data to & from the main server for the casinos ?

So i'm not 100% sure of this, but i can tell you from the last company I worked at which had it's own RGS...

Each player was unique to the casino they played on as far as the games software was concerned. We didn't (and aren't allowed to under data protection laws i believe) cross-reference players. And other than for statistical reasons, why would you cross-reference anyway... marketing perhaps but i can't think of any reasons from a games point of view.

Some casinos that run many sister sites may track you through their casinos, but the games providers don't as far as i'm aware.

 

[Tourettesguy]

About this phenomna when first reel stops instantly when a free spin feature will come... The feature must have been pre-downloaded or loaded in the background so its ready to play whne its triggered...there is no way the slot can download sometimes more than 100 free spins with each and every free spins outcome..in 0,1 secound.....take WMS(I think) for ex....if you lose connection during the free spins and you already have spun 30 free spins all of those will re-start whne you refresh the slot, paying exact same for those already shown spins...meaning everything about that free spin feature IS pre-downloaded before you start the feature...and how in the world can the slot get all that info playing a non-download software in less than 2 ms?? Ordinary spins, without feature download spins live...therefor the variation in delay every time you hit spin button...but when free spins is about to trigger it ALWAYS are almost no delay....when it should be the oposite if you win 100 free spins..which are aready spun in the background...a disconnection proves that. So I dont think its just bad programming....and whn 50% or software providers suffer from same problem....ok if one had this problem, then I could take it lika bad coding or else...but so many and different softwares..?!!?

 

[trancemonkey]

Great question AK!

I have started to (strongly) believe that personal/player IP plays a part (the size of that part I'm unsure) in a session, regardless of casino.

Again, i can't be 100% sure but i don't know of any games provider that does this or why you would

This ties in with my "slots remember" conspiracy theory also, will be interested to see the response on this one

Slots have no memory unless you talk about game recall (where the server remembers you have an unfinished game) or about game persistence which is carried over and therefore your game state is stored on the server. - each game is (should be!) randomly determined without reference to past or future games (i'm not talking about persistant features within a game here - that's different).

Please please remember i'm talking about the reputable companies here - i'm sure there are some in the world that do dodgy shit. I just don't know about them specifically...

 

[trancemonkey]

About this phenomna when first reel stops instantly when a free spin feature will come... The feature must have been pre-downloaded or loaded in the background so its ready to play whne its triggered...there is no way the slot can download sometimes more than 100 free spins with each and every free spins outcome..in 0,1 secound.....take WMS(I think) for ex....if you lose connection during the free spins and you already have spun 30 free spins all of those will re-start whne you refresh the slot, paying exact same for those already shown spins...meaning everything about that free spin feature IS pre-downloaded before you start the feature...and how in the world can the slot get all that info playing a non-download software in less than 2 ms?? Ordinary spins, without feature download spins live...therefor the variation in delay every time you hit spin button...but when free spins is about to trigger it ALWAYS are almost no delay....when it should be the oposite if you win 100 free spins..which are aready spun in the background...a disconnection proves that. So I dont think its just bad programming....and whn 50% or software providers suffer from same problem....ok if one had this problem, then I could take it lika bad coding or else...but so many and different softwares..?!!?

I covered this in a previous post, so i'll be brief:

There are two ways (at least) that the game logic (server) can provider the client with the information it needs for free games / pick feature / whatever...
The first is that ALL the outcomes for all the free spins / picks / whatever are sent to the client in one big data file at the point they are won. Of course, this can cause problems because if you win 100 free spins, with retriggers, etc... the file that the client receives could be quite large and sending / parsing it could take time. Therefore this is likely not used very often any more, if at all.

The other option is that each free game is sent to the client in turn - which is possibly why on Bruce Lee, if you have a bad connection, and you're in the free spins, the game will pause before the reels spin. This is because it's getting each spin in turn. The reason that if you completely lose connection, or reload the game, they play all the spins through is because the server knows that the Free Spins are not complete, and therefore sends all previous spins through again. We have to store previous spins in the system for legal reasons (i.e player disputes, GC issues, etc..).

Now a lot of providers would just pick up from where they left off, but WMS have chosen to display the game recovery in this way...

There's nothing sinister or odd about it - it's just the way it works.

As for the quick reel stop - i don't know... by design? Fault in the code? God knows... but again, nothing sinister. In fact, i quite like it

 

[Tourettesguy]

I covered this in a previous post, so i'll be brief:

There are two ways (at least) that the game logic (server) can provider the client with the information it needs for free games / pick feature / whatever...
The first is that ALL the outcomes for all the free spins / picks / whatever are sent to the client in one big data file. Of course, this can cause problems because if you win 100 free spins, with retriggers, etc... the file that the client receives could be quite large and sending / parsing it could take time. Therefore this is almost certainly not used very often any more, if at all.

The other option is that each free game is sent to the client in turn - which is why on Bruce Lee, if you have a bad connection, and you're in the free spins, the game will pause before the reels spin. This is because it's getting each spin in turn. The reason that if you completely lose connection, or reload the game, they play all the spins through is because the server knows that the Free Spins are not complete, and therefore sends all previous spins through again. We have to store previous spins in the system for legal reasons (i.e player disputes, GC issues, etc..).

Now a lot of providers would just pick up from where they left off, but WMS have chosen to display the game recovery in this way...

There's nothing sinister or odd about it - it's just the way it works.

As for the quick reel stop - i don't know... by design? Fault in the code? God knows... but again, nothing sinister. In fact, i quite like it

I "quite like it" too...but it feel wrong...and whne different worlds(softwares) suffer from same problem with this no-delay-to-first-reel-stops......and whne a large file of free spins and re-triggers should take longer to download/longer delay but is instead instant...that I mean says something is pre-loaded on my computer or in a temp-file on game servers ready to go... That is connected to what I say whne this is triggerd on last spin or when I change bet after looong time and 4000 spins..its like the either the connection has been lost in the servers to whne trigger that pre-downloaded set of free spins and it wont trigger...or while free spins are built up while playing....a lowering of bet could make the total outcome of the free psins to be too high so it trigger it...Like the "Feature guaranteed" on RTG...how it bulids up....4000 spins on €4 bet may need this time 5000 spins...but lovering to 60c / spin...the already bulit up amount is way too high for a 60c bet and causes a trigger instantly....plus it is much much higher than an ordinary 60c trigger....whne I hit 500x bet on that last spin but first spin on 60c....its to many thing that is connected here for me to be totally wrong... Feature guaranteed" on RTG happensa every 250 spin in worst case I remember..maybe other softwares vorks same but with a limit of more than just 250 spins..maybe raning between 1-5000 spins...

 

[trancemonkey]

I "quite like it" too...but it feel wrong...and whne different worlds(softwares) suffer from same problem with this no-delay-to-first-reel-stops......and whne a large file of free spins and re-triggers should take longer to download/longer delay but is instead instant...that I mean says something is pre-loaded on my computer or in a temp-file on game servers ready to go... That is connected to what I say whne this is triggerd on last spin or when I change bet after looong time and 4000 spins..its like the either the connection has been lost in the servers to whne trigger that pre-downloaded set of free spins and it wont trigger...or while free spins are built up while playing....a lowering of bet could make the total outcome of the free psins to be too high so it trigger it...Like the "Feature guaranteed" on RTG...how it bulids up....4000 spins on €4 bet may need this time 5000 spins...but lovering to 60c / spin...the already bulit up amount is way too high for a 60c bet and causes a trigger instantly....plus it is much much higher than an ordinary 60c trigger....whne I hit 500x bet on that last spin but first spin on 60c....its to many thing that is connected here for me to be totally wrong... Feature guaranteed" on RTG happensa every 250 spin in worst case I remember..maybe other softwares vorks same but with a limit of more than just 250 spins..maybe raning between 1-5000 spins...

You're thinking way too much in to this - and i also said that nearly all software providers download each free spin as it happens, hence why if you lose connection the game will pause or go in to an endless spin. It's easy to prove - next time you get free spins, turn your internet off half way through. I guarantee the game won't continue... because it doesn't know what to do. Nothing is pre-downloaded.. that would be open to massive problems and would be unworkable. The server needs to know everything that is going on - every game outcome that you are shown.

You seem to have an unchangeable opinion as to how slots work, and that's fine - you can believe whatever you want to believe, i'm obviously not going to change your mind. But please stop with the assertion that games are storing things, or waiting till the last spin (or whatever else it is you believe) on this thread as we are going round in circles and getting nowhere fast. If you believe that's the way they are, then i'm not going to be the one to change your mind.

 

[interlog]

Talking about stored game results.

I asked a casino to get my play history on a particular slot since its launch last year. They said they couldn't and had to go to the game provider to get this data. I get it eventually so nothing wrong there.

How did the game provider identify my spins over all of those months?

 

[Jono777]

Talking about stored game results.

I asked a casino to get my play history on a particular slot since its launch last year. They said they couldn't and had to go to the game provider to get this data. I get it eventually so nothing wrong there.

How did the game provider identify my spins over all of those months?

Bonanza by any chance sir

 

[interlog]

Bonanza by any chance sir

No shit Sherlock

 

[incrediblestuff]

Talking about stored game results.

I asked a casino to get my play history on a particular slot since its launch last year. They said they couldn't and had to go to the game provider to get this data. I get it eventually so nothing wrong there.

How did the game provider identify my spins over all of those months?

Pretty simple i reckon, the request came from a Casino, i.e client of theirs, for one of their players: that means you have a specific - but further anonymous i presume - user ID number..they just have to retrieve the results for that number, and there you go..

That would pretty much only work on a per Casino basis, i reckon.

I think an I.P. or mac address perhaps also would do the trick..

 

[aceking123]

Talking about stored game results.

I asked a casino to get my play history on a particular slot since its launch last year. They said they couldn't and had to go to the game provider to get this data. I get it eventually so nothing wrong there.

How did the game provider identify my spins over all of those months?

that would straight forward player ID

 

[Tourettesguy]

You're thinking way too much in to this - and i also said that nearly all software providers (including WMS) download each free spin as it happens, hence why if you lose connection the game will pause or go in to an endless spin. It's easy to prove - next time you get free spins, turn your internet off half way through. I guarantee the game won't continue... because it doesn't know what to do. Nothing is pre-downloaded.. that would be open to massive problems and would be unworkable. The server needs to know everything that is going on - every game outcome that you are shown.

You seem to have an unchangeable opinion as to how slots work, and that's fine - you can believe whatever you want to believe, i'm obviously not going to change your mind. But please stop with the assertion that games are storing things, or waiting till the last spin (or whatever else it is you believe) on this thread as we are going round in circles and getting nowhere fast. If you believe that's the way they are, then i'm not going to be the one to change your mind.

Well, even I can figure out a slot can multitask...sure it instatly feels if connetion is lost and overrides any function tar would still work if I cut mu internet...think you supply me with too easy answers.. You cant argue that a triggered free spin could in teorybe played i connetion were lost.. Now when we talk about that I can comfirm at Play' go games its possible...playingautoplay and you leave and come back and se you won a bonus roumd . But PlaynGo loseconnection prettyfast when inactive...still you can press start and see the bonusround, first when its over tje red box saying connection lost apperas. Doubt you tell all you know here...sounds more amd more like a support guy at VideoSlots saying we have no control over anythimg...

 

[trancemonkey]

Pretty simple i reckon, the request came from a Casino, i.e client of theirs, for one of their players: that means you have a specific - but further anonymous i presume - user ID number..they just have to retrieve the results for that number, and there you go..

That would pretty much only work on a per Casino basis, i reckon.

I think an I.P. or mac address perhaps also would do the trick..

You'd be right - the server keeps the information for a long time - that time is, i think, mentioned in the technical standards for RGS. Not sure how long...

 

[trancemonkey]

Well, even I can figure out a slot can multitask...sure it instatly feels if connetion is lost and overrides any function tar would still work if I cut mu internet...think you supply me with too easy answers.. You cant argue that a triggered free spin could in teorybe played i connetion were lost.. Now when we talk about that I can comfirm at Play' go games its possible...playingautoplay and you leave and come back and se you won a bonus roumd . But PlaynGo loseconnection prettyfast when inactive...still you can press start and see the bonusround, first when its over tje red box saying connection lost apperas. Doubt you tell all you know here...sounds more amd more like a support guy at VideoSlots saying we have no control over anythimg...

Fine - then don't believe me. To be honest, i'm fed up of explaining the same thing to you. With all due respect, you're like a conspiracy theorist that won't accept anyone else's point of view unless it confirms your own - even if that person is an expert in the field (and i'm not claiming to be an expert). Therefore, for the moment i'm not willing to keep this back and forth with you going. You're wrong, you're overthinking it, and you're making 2+2=5. That's up to you, but if you're going to ask someone who does this for a job, and has done so at multiple companies, for an opinion - and then tell him his opinion is wrong... well then there is nothing more to say here.

As far as i'm concerned this particular line of questioning by you is closed. Feel free to ask me any other questions though.

 

[aceking123]

My thinking on features & i have more than a few years with them , ive triggered free spins , doesn't matter if connection is down up broken or whatever , the feature & payout has already been applied to host, the rest is eye candy , this shows on many sites as ive hit the feature looked at balance & its already applied the balance to client/casino. balance jumped by £80 quid i had a £100 odd showing at start of feature , account is showing £182 , the feature hasn't even finished yet.

 

[trancemonkey]

My thinking on features & i have more than a few years with them , ive triggered free spins , doesn't matter if connection is down up broken or whatever , the feature & payout has already been applied to host, the rest is eye candy , this shows on many sites as ive hit the feature looked at balance & its already applied the balance to client/casino. balance jumped by £80 quid i had a £100 odd showing at start of feature , account is showing £182 , the feature hasn't even finished yet.

Never seen that - and i don't know any providers that currently pre-detemine the outcome of free spins, although i wouldn't be surprised if some do (in the way i've explained earlier). Do you have any specific examples?

 

[dunover]

Well, even I can figure out a slot can multitask...sure it instatly feels if connetion is lost and overrides any function tar would still work if I cut mu internet...think you supply me with too easy answers.. You cant argue that a triggered free spin could in teorybe played i connetion were lost.. Now when we talk about that I can comfirm at Play' go games its possible...playingautoplay and you leave and come back and se you won a bonus roumd . But PlaynGo loseconnection prettyfast when inactive...still you can press start and see the bonusround, first when its over tje red box saying connection lost apperas. Doubt you tell all you know here...sounds more amd more like a support guy at VideoSlots saying we have no control over anythimg...

Yes, it can - the server gets your instruction i.e. 'play' when you press start. You trigger a bonus, and on the second spin your connection fails. The game server carries on doing its job, goes through the bonus (on some software like Playtech but not Microgaming or WMS) as it doesn't matter to it if you can see it on your PC or not. So you will miss the bonus but just be credited with the final total when reconnected. If it doesn't credit, the casino can get the total from the server via the game provider. This would happen on softwares that do the bonus in one packet of data, rather than send each spin to your PC separately.

The slot cannot override an instruction the server's already received. All your PC does is provide a video graphic of an outcome already decided once the server's received your press of the button.

 

[Homicidal79]

Loving reading this thread. As for the last post I remember a while back on bet365 on immortal romance my balance went up by about 50 quid. Then the music and wild desire started. Obviously ending up paying what I'd already received prior to the wilds and the spin. Anyway was gonna give my opinion and thoughts on slots after many years playing. But going bed as gotta be up early for work. Keep up the good work.

 

[aceking123]

Never seen that - and i don't know any providers that currently pre-detemine the outcome of free spins, although i wouldn't be surprised if some do (in the way i've explained earlier). Do you have any specific examples?

Lots of sites , ladbrokes, bgo just to name a few , ive seen this balance change before , WMS games get the feature on WOZ check balance straight away your know if its a good win or just shite )

this only happens on web browser games if that helps. also why wouldnt it ? stake £1.20 payout £45 quid predetermined , very easy calculations from a server point of view & very easy programming for games ??????? it has a batch fo 10000s of features already built in TRTP% , so this in affect is still random & passes all the Regs ? i could be wrong as im no programmer, hence to me asking you

Another thing is with the new line of netent games , to where you cannot use 3 lines , your forced to use max lines , surely this is far better & easier for programming & maths, due to the max line theory being set ??

 

[Tourettesguy]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

 

[aceking123]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

all well & good but i never ever play two games at the same time , ive always period stuck to one game , hence there are things i notice , seems WMS games maybe its bug or delayed response or forced response to quickly. im not sure i have a few other weird things as well )

 

[nikantw]

....i'd like to invite you all to ask me anything you want....

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

 

[dunover]

Playing several slot at same time with same balance you have to keep your eyes OFF the balance on the otjer slot if you hit WildDesire or other features when won amount instatly are added to the other slots balance...sad as hell

Yes, that happens on Microgaming and some others - the outcome of your spin is credited to the account total before the reels even start spinning. The result in money terms x stake is instant almost speed of light to your account, but the Video graphics take a few seconds to play through, so while the reels spin if you go to your account (or in your case your account balance is showing in other slots!) you know the outcome already!

 

[trancemonkey]

Yes, that happens on Microgaming and some others - the outcome of your spin is credited to the account total before the reels even start spinning. The result in money terms x stake is instant almost speed of light to your account, but the Video graphics take a few seconds to play through, so while the reels spin if you go to your account (or in your case your account balance is showing in other slots!) you know the outcome already!

Shoddy code .. but of course the server has to know the outcome of the game the moment it receives a spin request as all the data for that game is sent back to the client. If a company were to pre-draw all the free spins at the point the game logic knows free spins will be awarded then in theory, with bad code, you could see your total balance updated early. I HAVE seen this in single games like you say, but I've never seen the balance of an entire free spins round added before its begun...

 

[trancemonkey]

Lots of sites , ladbrokes, bgo just to name a few , ive seen this balance change before , WMS games get the feature on WOZ check balance straight away your know if its a good win or just shite )

this only happens on web browser games if that helps. also why wouldnt it ? stake £1.20 payout £45 quid predetermined , very easy calculations from a server point of view & very easy programming for games ??????? it has a batch fo 10000s of features already built in TRTP% , so this in affect is still random & passes all the Regs ? i could be wrong as im no programmer, hence to me asking you

Another thing is with the new line of netent games , to where you cannot use 3 lines , your forced to use max lines , surely this is far better & easier for programming & maths, due to the max line theory being set ??

Absolutely forcing max lines makes game design easier... I always do fixed line games now unless the market demands games with changeable lines (like in Sweden for example) .

What you say about predetermined free spins in interesting because I know a lot of social casinos and some very small inexperienced providers have been known to do just this. This only really happens when the provider is very inexperienced with maths... and certainly I would be very very surprised if any major manufacturer had even done this. However that still doesn't mean that the free spins are predownloaded or anything as daft as that...

 

[steveh35]

Shoddy code .. but of course the server has to know the outcome of the game the moment it receives a spin request as all the data for that game is sent back to the client. If a company were to pre-draw all the free spins at the point the game logic knows free spins will be awarded then in theory, with shit code, you could see your total balance updated early. I HAVE seen this in single games like you say, but I've never seen the balance of an entire free spins round added before its begun...

Gala casino shows you the result before the spin has finished, one of the reasons I do not use Gala very often.

This doesn't happen during free spins.

 

[trancemonkey]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

I'm afraid this is out of my area of expertise... but if the game is in free play / demo mode, the game can do anything (it doesn't HAVE to be random...)

I'm sure Captain Risk could shed far more light on this than I

 

[brianmon]

if the game is in free play / demo mode, the game can do anything (it doesn't HAVE to be random...)

I'd have thought that free play/demo mode would have to accurately represent Real play, both legally and ethically

 

[quber]

I think if players understood the order of play then some of these balance updates will make sense.

So basically, when a player presses the spin button that command is sent to the server, the server then contacts the players casino account to check if the funds are available, if they are then the server continues and requests a result from the RNG, the game at that point, if there are no free spins or bonus rounds, is complete and the balance updates are sent to your casino account and the result is stored in the suppliers back office. At the same time as it is sending the result to your account it is also sending the spin result to your computer to tell the reels where to land and to also update your in game balance after the reels have stopped.

if you have your balance showing elsewhere then it will show the update before your reels have stopped spinning.

When you get the free spins each spin is the same as above except the balance check doesn't happen at the start of the spin, MG update your balance after every spin of a free spin whereas I think all the others hold the winnings and pay as one amount at the end of the spins.

there are other things happening at the same time that don't affect the game such as the responsible gaming stuff and any bonus calculations that may be needed but the above is the basics of what is happening

 

[quber]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

The only ones i can think of with that are Yggdrasil games where you can be given free spins that will continue until you hit a bonus round, they can also be configured to continue until the player has won a certain amount overall or until he has won a certain amount on any single spin.

 

[SpinUk]

Quickspin offer this facility on their games (certainly dragon shrine). Straight into the bonus round. From an integration view point i can see how it could be done (replicate the rng bonus round start message and send to client). If this is indeed possible and happens this does cast some shadows on the previous posts...

 

[trancemonkey]

I think if players understood the order of play then some of these balance updates will make sense.

So basically, when a player presses the spin button that command is sent to the server, the server then contacts the players casino account to check if the funds are available, if they are then the server continues and requests a result from the RNG, the game at that point, if there are no free spins or bonus rounds, is complete and the balance updates are sent to your casino account and the result is stored in the suppliers back office. At the same time as it is sending the result to your account it is also sending the spin result to your computer to tell the reels where to land and to also update your in game balance after the reels have stopped.

if you have your balance showing elsewhere then it will show the update before your reels have stopped spinning.

When you get the free spins each spin is the same as above except the balance check doesn't happen at the start of the spin, MG update your balance after every spin of a free spin whereas I think all the others hold the winnings and pay as one amount at the end of the spins.

there are other things happening at the same time that don't affect the game such as the responsible gaming stuff and any bonus calculations that may be needed but the above is the basics of what is happening

A very well written, and absolutely spot on post

 

[hhhelllo]

This is by far the most interesting thread I have read here. Thanks a lot for doing this trancemonkey. Thanks for captiainrizk to participate too. Really enjoying it!

 

[sapit222]

Ive read all pages now and its interesting.
Ill continue following this thread.

Thanks to Trancemonkey and also Rizk for joining. :notworthy

 

[trancemonkey]

Ive read all pages now and its interesting.
Ill continue following this thread.

Thanks to Trancemonkey and also Rizk for joining. :notworthy

Thanks matey! If you have any questions, please fire away.... things like "how do you decide how many free spins to award when you're designing a game? Why choose 7, or 10, or 12, etc..."

 

[PatrickNess]

I bingeread last 10 pages ...

The topic of integrity of the games and honesty/fairness of casinos, devs, auditors, etc is well too big to be contained in a single thread. It deserves its own section, if not the whole forum. But hey, not my house.

Thanks again trancemonkey for staying until now




1) are reels, reels ? I mean, is a reel a fixed, finite strip of non changing symbols with probability of landing on a bet line equal the frequency of that symbol on that reel ? (actually joins questions 2-3)

2) is it (point in question 1) required by law/regulations ?

3) why are almost all slots illegal and why are authorities not doing anything about it? I explain myself. By regulation, when betting on something that represents a physical device, like a coin with head and tails, odds must be that of a fair device (in this case 0.50 0.50). But for (video) slots, non physical things happen
- sticky wilds, walking wilds, expending wilds are non physical events.
- change of reels (Jack and the Beanstalk -> no scatter symbol appear when there is a walking wild; by far not the only example)
- on jackpot wheels, the odds of having the needle point the JP section do not correspond to a that of uniform distribution on a circle. Same for JP bonus with cards etc. (Mega Fortune-like JP wheels are little more correct)

3) are undocumented "hot modes" legal? aka Terminator2 reels are different depending on the hot/cold mode, kind of "non physical thing".

4) how and where should every player who ever played a video slot make a complaint about any thing I mentionned?

5) [asking a personal opinion here] if developers/operators were required by law/regulation to disclose the distribution of paytable [aka math model of slot], do you think the market will change in any way ? loss/gain of global revenue, some games played more than others ?

6) Other than a drastic change in
a: regulations or
b: loss of revenue (assuming the 5% of players providing 90% of business suddenly get their gambling addiction under control/get a brain/realize how easily they can be or are cheated)
can you think of anything else that would push the industry towards more transparency from a player point of view, force casinos to implement tools to verify integrity of the game/each bet instead of trusting 3rd party paid by the casinos/game developers themselves, or disclose paytable distribution ?



edit: Sorry, terminator2 hotmode is documented

 

[Captain Rizk]

Thank you for doing this.

What about the free spins offers? How playing those free spins work? Is it just like another feature in the same game logic, or something else?
Some casinos claim that they can guarantee that you will get a feature on their free spin offer. How is that possible?
What about tournaments like MG ones or battle of slots? How do those work? Same game logic or another one? Why MG tournaments are so sensitive to everything and have constant problems?
How much does it cost to a casino to have those tournaments?

Hey Nikantw - we were just talking about your trip to Malta last year to see us the other day!!

I think that there are a couple of providers that offer this functionality, as someone mentioned, there is Quickspin and iirc Scientific Games have this function to in game i think....

IT is known as a "feature trigger" and can only be set up by the operator and it is, in effect, a mystery bonus. What some providers allow is for you to "buy" entry into a free spins round (how this is triggered is dependent upon the supplier) but they know that on average it will payout around say 35x and therefore it is given away as a bonus mechanism to reward players - very much like free spins from any operator.

Personally, I am not a fan of this as it leads to confusions such as this but i think that it is important to remember that this is something aimed at being beneficial to the player but cannot be used to negatively affect the player, by that i mean if the RNG says the result is x,y or z then that is going to the be the game result

 

[quber]

3) why are almost all slots illegal and why are authorities not doing anything about it? I explain myself. By regulation, when betting on something that represents a physical device, like a coin with head and tails, odds must be that of a fair device (in this case 0.50 0.50). But for (video) slots, non physical things happen
- sticky wilds, walking wilds, expending wilds are non physical events.
- change of reels (Jack and the Beanstalk -> no scatter symbol appear when there is a walking wild; by far not the only example)
- on jackpot wheels, the odds of having the needle point the JP section do not correspond to a that of uniform distribution on a circle. Same for JP bonus with cards etc. (Mega Fortune-like JP wheels are little more correct)

3) are undocumented "hot modes" legal? aka Terminator2 reels are different depending on the hot/cold mode, kind of "non physical thing".

On physical slots you do find a change of reels happening, a lot of slots would have two reel sets, one on the bottom and one above it that would kick in on a bonus rounds

the old 3 reel slots were weighted to give cherries, for example, a greater chance of landing than a bell

Hot mode in Terminator 2 is documented, it is in the rules

as for the sticky wilds etc. this could be done on a mechanical slot but it would be far too complicated to make it worth while and get fully tested. Apart from that there is no requirement for a video slot to match a mechanical slot, if a mechanical slot does not have walking wilds then the video version can not be trying to emulate it whereas coins and cards do exist so they have to be a fair representation

 

[Tourettesguy]

Shoddy code? Yeah...Microgaming isnt that big and well known by now and havent been around for 20 years already...so ofcoarse they use shoddy code....

Am I wrong if I say all softwares instantly know a feature(bonus ofr free spins) total payout already before you click start button? And that nothing in a 100 spins feature will change...all 100 spins payout are already known same moment you hit the feature?

If not...which software care random at every spin...like if you log of in middle of free spins and continue 1 hour later you get other spins than you would have gotten if you stayed online? Only software I think can do that is RTG....those spins feel random changeable depending of if you stop spisn manually or not and so on..or maybe they only coded it non.shoddy to fool me.

 

[zap987]

Shoddy code? Yeah...Microgaming isnt that big and well known by now and havent been around for 20 years already...so ofcoarse they use shoddy code....

Am I wrong if I say all softwares instantly know a feature(bonus ofr free spins) total payout already before you click start button? And that nothing in a 100 spins feature will change...all 100 spins payout are already known same moment you hit the feature?

If not...which software care random at every spin...like if you log of in middle of free spins and continue 1 hour later you get other spins than you would have gotten if you stayed online? Only software I think can do that is RTG....those spins feel random changeable depending of if you stop spisn manually or not and so on..or maybe they only coded it non.shoddy to fool me.

Microgamings Viper client is full of shoddy code and has been since forever. Most likely exactly because it has been around so long they keep building on old stuff made by some programmer that left 15 years ago.

You are wrong of course in the case of free spins. In the Microgaming example, it only ever happens with a single spin feature, if you hit a pick bonus or feature like wildstorm, you will see your balance update if you have a different window showing your balance open because that spin is finished, there is nothing more for the gaming server to do. For free spins it is different and can easily be confirmed by watching how the balance will update in the other window before the spin finishes displaying but one spin at a time.

 

[Tourettesguy]

Microgamings Viper client is full of shoddy code and has been since forever. Most likely exactly because it has been around so long they keep building on old stuff made by some programmer that left 15 years ago.

You are wrong of course in the case of free spins. In the Microgaming example, it only ever happens with a single spin feature, if you hit a pick bonus or feature like wildstorm, you will see your balance update if you have a different window showing your balance open because that spin is finished, there is nothing more for the gaming server to do. For free spins it is different and can easily be confirmed by watching how the balance will update in the other window before the spin finishes displaying but one spin at a time.

Yes you are right about the free spin...and probably abount MG too...LOL.. Viper Download software also crash in 50% of startups...and 50% sooner or later ingame.. Haha. But still I think all 100 free spins are known before they starts...the 100spins are just a grphical illusion of a lottery ticket win..just good coding thatshow each win added to balance. Otjer adds it in abig chunk at the end like NetEnt WMS and IGT..and majority of total wins are pretty even amounts...like 1000 coins or 1500 or 7500 so on.. Or 99,6 or 100,30.. That is somthing too that crossed my mind...you often get a feature when you pass an even amount like...like when uou have had millions of dead spins and have €1001 in balance and next €1,5 spin trigger a feature...noticed it many many times...and when you are about to lower the bet cause you reaching last €100 from like €500 and that last spin before €100 balance triggers it...I bet others here been there done that...

Now in trancemonkeys head.."Wow..this tourettsguy have found out everything about how we program slots!!"