Take Note and be warned your MAC is tracked

[mack341]

Maybe if we 'slightly suspicious folk' could see all the unseen components of what actually makes up a game and understand how they interact together we'd be more reassured and confident of fair play. Perhaps an old game that's been pulled and no longer available to play could be made open source and then dissected? It would make for an interesting documentary or a 'how they make it' type program.

From playing raging rhino a lot over the years, there were quite a few patterns, when the base game was playing well you'd often get good bonuses too, very much feast or famine; and then there was Dunover's observation that after a 4 scatter trigger you would often get another bonus quite soon afterwards. It happened too many times to not be programmed in, and when they updated the game to html, lo and behold this 'quirk' was still there.

 

[dogshead1]

So you've lowered to personal insults now...

Ok... So in this quoted post here you claim you've never said they are rigged. And the you say, and I quote "That my friend is not random". So if they aren't random... What are they.

And you still clearly haven't answered one single question...

The burden of proof is also on you... You claim "not random" but all you're saying is "After a big win the RTP drops..." Well of course it drops. That's obvious.

If you win £1000 and the RTP goes up to 200%, it is clearly going to drop back towards its target unless you have some more huge wins. I'm not even sure what you think you're proving... But you're trying yourself in knots saying two different things in one post, starting to throw insults around, and not answering any points I've made directly.

So yes... This thread has descended in to a farce.

What are you now the oxford dictionary!

If your comeback is that my statement about them not being random is terminology and your proof I'm spouting 'rigged' your very uneducated!! Its what I say not random! Not random be for many factors its YOU who's spouting and ranting the rigged debate. No one has mentioned rigged but you pal. Your actually very boring and immature and yet it's you who wanted adult conversation. There is no maturity in ganging up with fellow forum members and attacking everyone who has questions.

And your missing my point or don't want to answer. I made a point about the extremely large pool of slotters at a given time of a large win for one player. That win would be pocket change of the profits made by the game and developers. The RNG is designed for the game right and randomly distributes each individual outcome of each independent spin (For everyone on that games server at the time) RIGHT!. If its not I also ask why as then that is misleading publicity. If it were random I ask you why are stats showing that the slot is clawing back and leveling out the RTP on individual accounts and MAC addresses? Surely random distribution would be merely that and over a lifetime one may never experience the True RTP. Let's not forget RTP is not the lifetime expected return to an individual player but the true RTP over all accounts for that game/slot. Randomness could result in one player constantly winning and cashing out and running at 100%+ RTP while the other could run constantly at near 30-40% that's randomness. Just like the lottery some people are luckier than others. Stats on bonanza are not showing that for the majority. They show the slot acting in such a way that if not almost immediately levels the players returns to near RTP and as seen in statistical posts drop dramatically to such a low as if to say you have taken me for 4 k now I'm taking 5k back. That my friend over such a large sample size of pool of players in the lottery is not random and some for tracking to be in place to compensate for this. Your asking for evidence you will only get statistical evidence as both you and I know that the only evidence would be a whistle blower. Who, one is bound to a non-disclosure agreement and secondly would be liable once he or she spills the beans for being party to corruption theft and fraud.

Now this is the last response your getting from my as I'm constantly repeating myself and your getting boring.

 

[dogshead1]

*shrugs
you likened it (your playing) to a drug and alcohol addicition...I mean, thoise are your words, not mine. Were you expecting a different sort of response?
I mean, that IS why there's a quit gambling section here.

If you honestly tell yourself you gamble for fun and its not and addiction your the one in trouble my friend. We all accept we could lose the most time so here is no fun in that is there. Unless your charity and find it fun to throw money away. I quoted what is the true reality of gambling. I've quoted that because I've gambled for 30+ years and come to accept it win or lose. I've also stated in this thread why I love to gamble but in your trollish behavior you've missed that!!!

 

[dionysus]

If you honestly tell yourself you gamble for fun and its not and addiction your the one in trouble my friend. We all accept we could lose the most time so here is no fun in that is there. Unless your charity and find it fun to throw money away. I quoted what is the true reality of gambling. I've quoted that because I've gambled for 30+ years and come to accept it win or lose. I've also stated in this thread why I love to gamble but in your trollish behavior you've missed that!!!

I'm not sure where I trolled - I quoted yor words.
And I DO gamble for fun - winning when it occurs is a pleasant side-effect - but I enjoy it.
And no, I'm not a charity, any more than someone who buys video games are...I didnt throw it away - I got value for money; entertainment
Anyone who is not doing it for entertainment, might want to look a little closer inward to where the problem lies.

and an addiction? No. I spend what I would for an evening out but instead enjoy it in.
You're the one calling your play an additcion.

 

[pinnit2014]

*shrugs in* Oops... just popped in here looking for the North Korea thread *shrugs out*

 

[Lemon]

Maybe if we 'slightly suspicious folk' could see all the unseen components of what actually makes up a game and understand how they interact together we'd be more reassured and confident of fair play. Perhaps an old game that's been pulled and no longer available to play could be made open source and then dissected? It would make for an interesting documentary or a 'how they make it' type program.

From playing raging rhino a lot over the years, there were quite a few patterns, when the base game was playing well you'd often get good bonuses too, very much feast or famine; and then there was Dunover's oservation that after a 4 scatter trigger you would often get another bonus quite soon afterwards. It happened too many times to not be programmed in, and when they updated the game to html, lo and behold this 'quirk' was still there.

Dissect what? A set of reelstrips for a base game, and then maybe another for the free game feature? Perhaps a couple of lookup tables as well if there's a pick feature? What 'inner-workings' are you hoping to glean knowledge from? Most slots have absolutely nothing to them.

As for the Rhino observations - sounds like a coincidence to me; separate events linked by nothing more than your desire to create meaning. The only other explanation would be 'metamorphic games', which I doubt very much is the case here, as it wouldn't get past a lab test.

As I say, most slots are incredibly simple. To add anything else beyond that, such as to facilitate 'compensation' would involve 10 times more work for nothing other than the risk of getting busted.

 

[trancemonkey]

What are you now the oxford dictionary!

If your comeback is that my statement about them not being random is terminology and your proof I'm spouting 'rigged' your very uneducated!! Its what I say not random! Not random be for many factors its YOU who's spouting and ranting the rigged debate. No one has mentioned rigged but you pal. Your actually very boring and immature and yet it's you who wanted adult conversation. There is no maturity in ganging up with fellow forum members and attacking everyone who has questions.

And your missing my point or don't want to answer. I made a point about the extremely large pool of slotters at a given time of a large win for one player. That win would be pocket change of the profits made by the game and developers. The RNG is designed for the game right and randomly distributes each individual outcome of each independent spin (For everyone on that games server at the time) RIGHT!. If its not I also ask why as then that is misleading publicity. If it were random I ask you why are stats showing that the slot is clawing back and leveling out the RTP on individual accounts and MAC addresses? Surely random distribution would be merely that and over a lifetime one may never experience the True RTP. Let's not forget RTP is not the lifetime expected return to an individual player but the true RTP over all accounts for that game/slot. Randomness could result in one player constantly winning and cashing out and running at 100%+ RTP while the other could run constantly at near 30-40% that's randomness. Just like the lottery some people are luckier than others. Stats on bonanza are not showing that for the majority. They show the slot acting in such a way that if not almost immediately levels the players returns to near RTP and as seen in statistical posts drop dramatically to such a low as if to say you have taken me for 4 k now I'm taking 5k back. That my friend over such a large sample size of pool of players in the lottery is not random and some for tracking to be in place to compensate for this. Your asking for evidence you will only get statistical evidence as both you and I know that the only evidence would be a whistle blower. Who, one is bound to a non-disclosure agreement and secondly would be liable once he or she spills the beans for being party to corruption theft and fraud.

Now this is the last response your getting from my as I'm constantly repeating myself and your getting boring.

Maybe it's because I'm telling the truth and you don't like it

I'll answer all your incorrect points tomorrow, whether you read them or not

 

[trancemonkey]

. Your asking for evidence you will only get statistical evidence as both you and I know that the only evidence would be a whistle blower. Who, one is bound to a non-disclosure agreement and secondly would be liable once he or she spills the beans for being party to corruption theft and fraud.

Now this is the last response your getting from my as I'm constantly repeating myself and your getting boring.

You do know that you can't be held to a non-disclosure agreement if what you are disclosing is illegal right? You seriously think that if I blew the whistle on something provably illegal that the company I work for would have any chance of a case against me standing up in any court? This is just getting in to the realms of the ridiculous...

 

[deaconk78]

oh dear . the industry can't even get responsible gambling/gaming right and you lot appear to be ripping doghead1 apart for having dubious thoughts about the gambling industry .

it takes reps on here and bbf to get even a modicum of trust - yet we have complaints about even that process . Are you all so deluded to believe that the gambling industry is squeaky clean ?

when you're not even allowed to tell a customer that they have an unclaimed winning bet - how on earth do you expect the rest of the industry to be spotless ?

 

[goatwack]

*shrugs in* Oops... just popped in here looking for the North Korea thread *shrugs out*

It's the same sort of thing. No one knows about North Korea either

 

[deaconk78]

It's the same sort of thing. No one knows about North Korea either

we need team casinomeister: slot police . f*** yeah! don't think north korea liked that either lol (TA:WP)

 

[trancemonkey]

oh dear . the industry can't even get responsible gambling/gaming right and you lot appear to be ripping doghead1 apart for having dubious thoughts about the gambling industry .

it takes reps on here and bbf to get even a modicum of trust - yet we have complaints about even that process . Are you all so deluded to believe that the gambling industry is squeaky clean ?

when you're not even allowed to tell a customer that they have an unclaimed winning bet - how on earth do you expect the rest of the industry to be spotless ?

No...we are debunking him making statements "as fact" which are clearly not true for all the points I made some posts ago, none of which dogshead1 has addressed. All they are doing is getting angry and ignoring questions asked of them. I have clearly explained why RTP "drops" - which it doesnt, it normalises just like anything that is random will do because a big win pumps the RTP up massively and they are very rare so of course it drops back down to it's normal level.

If you're going to put one side of an argument across, that's fine. But when people question that and give you clear questions to answer or points to consider, and you ignore them, then I reserve the right to take them to task on that.

Now we have them clearly being miffed rather than debating and the whole thing is now a mess...

 

[deaconk78]

No...we are debunking him making statements "as fact" which are clearly not true for all the points I made some posts ago, none of which dogshead1 has addressed. All they are doing is getting angry and ignoring questions asked of them. I have clearly explained why RTP "drops" - which it doesnt, it normalises just like anything that is random will do because a big win pumps the RTP up massively and they are very rare so of course it drops back down to it's normal level.

If you're going to put one side of an argument across, that's fine. But when people question that and give you clear questions to answer or points to consider, and you ignore them, then I reserve the right to take them to task on that.

Now we have them clearly being miffed rather than debating and the whole thing is now a mess...

all i have seen is that you offer statements and numbers with 'probably' 'possible' and 'as an example' . i've worked with some of the higher ranked managers within WH and i know the shady shit that goes on . you're trying to say everything he/she says is false but unless you can in fact prove that yourself by offering up a working example of for instance 'bonanza' source code and genuine RNG all you offer is opinion . your opinion v their opinion . i'm on gamstop so i frankly don't care for my own ends .. i worry about the people that believe everything you say and take that as gospel .

you don't know for fact that what he/she is saying is false . you believe it to be or you wouldn't be in the industry and that's fine . let's not get personal with the poster nor them with you .

 

[dionysus]

you don't know for fact that what he/she is saying is false . you believe it to be or you wouldn't be in the industry and that's fine . .

Yes, but that's an opinion of 'besides all the things I know, I believe it to be because...' and he goes on to list a myriad of highly logcal reasons combined with his close connections to other delvelopers and desginers within (alongside his own working knowledge of) the industry. If they're guesses, they're highly educated ones.
As oppsed to the fundamentalist views so often in threads of 'I belive it's this way because...well, that's what I believe....so therefore, that's all there is to to it.'

 

[Steviedoo]

all i have seen is that you offer statements and numbers with 'probably' 'possible' and 'as an example' . i've worked with some of the higher ranked managers within WH and i know the shady shit that goes on . you're trying to say everything he/she says is false but unless you can in fact prove that yourself by offering up a working example of for instance 'bonanza' source code and genuine RNG all you offer is opinion . your opinion v their opinion . i'm on gamstop so i frankly don't care for my own ends .. i worry about the people that believe everything you say and take that as gospel .

you don't know for fact that what he/she is saying is false . you believe it to be or you wouldn't be in the industry and that's fine . let's not get personal with the poster nor them with you .

Ok...so why don’t you tell us the shady shit that went on.

 

[deaconk78]

Ok...so why don’t you tell us the shady shit that went on.

without proof it would just be my word . i can tell you though that all bonuses are performance related - how much profit a place makes - that goes directly against responsible gambling. I profit personally if you lose . I am to entice you into playing shop free rolls / tournaments - to entice you to want to play them more . IF a place is quiet then it's my job to entice you into playing the slots - on free play - you'll see this as a kind gesture and spend maybe 20-30 quid more than you had budgeted for because you felt obliged to after 'playing for free' - that's exactly why demo mode is there on slots online .

what you should always worry about is people that believe and try to convince you that the odds are in your favour or it's there for you to make a profit or it's free . Nothing comes before my wage . I am supposed to watch you lose and lose and make you feel special when you win - so that you spend it with 'us' .

it's all underhand .

 

[SpinUk]

without proof it would just be my word . i can tell you though that all bonuses are performance related - how much profit a place makes - that goes directly against responsible gambling. I profit personally if you lose . I am to entice you into playing shop free rolls / tournaments - to entice you to want to play them more . IF a place is quiet then it's my job to entice you into playing the slots - on free play - you'll see this as a kind gesture and spend maybe 20-30 quid more than you had budgeted for because you felt obliged to after 'playing for free' - that's exactly why demo mode is there on slots online .

what you should always worry about is people that believe and try to convince you that the odds are in your favour or it's there for you to make a profit or it's free . Nothing comes before my wage . I am supposed to watch you lose and lose and make you feel special when you win - so that you spend it with 'us' .

it's all underhand .

Thats just aggressive marketing, its absolutely nothing to do with anything being mathematically rigged.

In fact, that disproved your point. Why bother with all the aggressive marketing when you can just flick a switch on the rng and watch the extra money roll in for an hour/day whatever. Surely that easier than actually enticing players with agressive bonus offers?

Oh wait....

Threads like me makes me feel ashamed to be associated with other gamblers if people seriously belive this shit. Its not even thought through properly.

 

[dogshead1]

Maybe if we 'slightly suspicious folk' could see all the unseen components of what actually makes up a game and understand how they interact together we'd be more reassured and confident of fair play. Perhaps an old game that's been pulled and no longer available to play could be made open source and then dissected? It would make for an interesting documentary or a 'how they make it' type program.

From playing raging rhino a lot over the years, there were quite a few patterns, when the base game was playing well you'd often get good bonuses too, very much feast or famine; and then there was Dunover's observation that after a 4 scatter trigger you would often get another bonus quite soon afterwards. It happened too many times to not be programmed in, and when they updated the game to html, lo and behold this 'quirk' was still there.

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Download a few of these and you'll see how simple its is to change the slots behavior, set up as an when and how regular the bonus triggers and you manually adjust the RTP. This has been around for years emulations of the old pub fruit machines before FOBTS came to fruition. Oh and FOBTS are plugged into a permanent remote server too. Hmmmn why would that be. Surely not to just update the software from time to time. Technology has come on a long way since then. Just a something to ponder on. Anything is possible!

 

[dogshead1]

You do know that you can't be held to a non-disclosure agreement if what you are disclosing is illegal right? You seriously think that if I blew the whistle on something provably illegal that the company I work for would have any chance of a case against me standing up in any court? This is just getting in to the realms of the ridiculous...

You forgot to quote me on the remainder of that post the most relevant comment I made yet AGAIN.

 

[dogshead1]

It's the same sort of thing. No one knows about North Korea either

Donald Trump does and he's a business man

 

[Gaz237]

If you honestly tell yourself you gamble for fun and its not and addiction your the one in trouble my friend. We all accept we could lose the most time so here is no fun in that is there. Unless your charity and find it fun to throw money away. I quoted what is the true reality of gambling. I've quoted that because I've gambled for 30+ years and come to accept it win or lose. I've also stated in this thread why I love to gamble but in your trollish behavior you've missed that!!!

Your the one that called yourself an addict.

Of course people can play for fun. I do and if i win, that's just a bonus on top.

You come across as in the depths of despair and are trying to pass the blame for your losses/addiction.

If you believe the whole gambling scene is rigged, but still play. There can only be one reason. Maybe you should seek help.

 

[dogshead1]

Your the one that called yourself an addict.

Of course people can play for fun. I do and if i win, that's just a bonus on top.

You come across as in the depths of despair and are trying to pass the blame for your losses/addiction.

If you believe the whole gambling scene is rigged, but still play. There can only be one reason. Maybe you should seek help.

If your playing for fun why are you still in this forum. Do you still play?? I'm guessing so. Then that's an addiction. I know blokes who are addicted to prostitutes. That's fun but also an addiction doesn't mean its a problem. The problem occurs when you put yourself in financial strain. So please quit the smug condescending remarks. Think things through before starting war. Or like others before is this your way of closing this thread?

 

[Gaz237]

If your playing for fun why are you still in this forum. Do you still play?? I'm guessing so. Then that's an addiction. I know blokes who are addicted to prostitutes. That's fun but also an addiction doesn't mean its a problem. The problem occurs when you put yourself in financial strain. So please quit the smug condescending remarks. Think things through before starting war. Or like others before is this your way of closing this thread?

I,m on this forum as I'm playing battles right now. How you think, that me being on this forum makes me addicted is madness?.

The only thing I could feel smug about, in regards to you is. I don't come across as bitter and angry, unlike yourself.

I also don't go around saying everyone else is addicted. I guess you say that to try and shift some of the blame to try and excuse YOUR addiction.

 

[mack341]

Dissect what? A set of reelstrips for a base game, and then maybe another for the free game feature? Perhaps a couple of lookup tables as well if there's a pick feature? What 'inner-workings' are you hoping to glean knowledge from? Most slots have absolutely nothing to them.

As for the Rhino observations - sounds like a coincidence to me; separate events linked by nothing more than your desire to create meaning. The only other explanation would be 'metamorphic games', which I doubt very much is the case here, as it wouldn't get past a lab test.

As I say, most slots are incredibly simple. To add anything else beyond that, such as to facilitate 'compensation' would involve 10 times more work for nothing other than the risk of getting busted.

If as you say most slots are incredibly simple and have 'absolutely nothing to them', I do find it odd that UKGC needed to introduce live rtp monitoring in september 2016, whereas if the games are instead actually quite complex [the maths, volatililty etc..] it makes more sense.

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And the following was taken from the accompanying technical note pdf:

"Consumers are concerned with the fairness of games and often game faults are identified as a result of their complaints. Monitoring processes should include adequate investigation of consumer complaints (especially where a game attracts more than the normal level of complaints about fairness) and ensure consumers can be provided with clear, detailed explanations of how their performance compares with the game’s expected behaviour. It is not sufficient to notify players that the games have met the required testing standards as this does not acknowledge that errors can evade testing"


The observation about another bonus landing quite soon after a 4 scatter trigger on Raging Rhino was Dunover's, when I first heard him mention in one of his vids, about 2 years ago, I was a bit sceptical and thought 'no that can't be right' but I then started to keep an eye for it happening and it did happen often enough to be predictable. Ask Dunover if you think I've made this up because I wanted to believe it and create 'meaning' I still played and enjoyed RR even though it seemed an anomaly for a random game to have this 'quirk'.

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Your actually very boring and immature and yet it's you who wanted adult conversation. There is no maturity in ganging up with fellow forum members and attacking everyone who has questions.

I can handle the general ignorance of probability but this constant childish name calling and insistence you're be "ganged up on" because people are responding rationally to your paranoia is just unbearable.

Can we move this to the "rigged" thread now?

 

[dunover]

Yes, I did notice that Rhino seemed to do the trigger after a 4-scatter trigger quite a lot....I'd say 9/10 within 40 spins but then again it's got quite a frequent feature (I once had a trigger 5 times in 17 spins) so it doesn't prove it is 'rigged' but it did look odd at the time.

 

[trancemonkey]

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Download a few of these and you'll see how simple its is to change the slots behavior, set up as an when and how regular the bonus triggers and you manually adjust the RTP. This has been around for years emulations of the old pub fruit machines before FOBTS came to fruition. Oh and FOBTS are plugged into a permanent remote server too. Hmmmn why would that be. Surely not to just update the software from time to time. Technology has come on a long way since then. Just a something to ponder on. Anything is possible!

How is that proof? Fruit machines are compensated and everyone knows it... It's also a local compensator on one machine from one provider. It isn't in the slightest comparable to an online slot...

 

[trancemonkey]

You forgot to quote me on the remainder of that post the most relevant comment I made yet AGAIN.

Nope... About the non-disclosure stuff I quoted the exact bit that you said. With regards to all the other stuff, I said I'd reply today. Which I will - some of it is true. Some of it is not.

 

[Nicola]

12 pages later and have we really learnt anything new about RTP from this thread?

Good discussion though!

 

[trancemonkey]

without proof it would just be my word . i can tell you though that all bonuses are performance related - how much profit a place makes - that goes directly against responsible gambling. I profit personally if you lose . I am to entice you into playing shop free rolls / tournaments - to entice you to want to play them more . IF a place is quiet then it's my job to entice you into playing the slots - on free play - you'll see this as a kind gesture and spend maybe 20-30 quid more than you had budgeted for because you felt obliged to after 'playing for free' - that's exactly why demo mode is there on slots online .

what you should always worry about is people that believe and try to convince you that the odds are in your favour or it's there for you to make a profit or it's free . Nothing comes before my wage . I am supposed to watch you lose and lose and make you feel special when you win - so that you spend it with 'us' .

it's all underhand .

It's not underhand... It's business. The same in most businesses - they will do whatever they can to get you to spend as much as possible. That's the economics of business my friend.

Is it good to encourage people to lose money - no arguably not. But you aren't MAKING them. They have a choice.

 

[trancemonkey]

I wonder why all the "rigged" / compensated / not random peeps ignored all these questions ..

Can one of you just try and answer all these - just so I can look an idiot when you give me reasonable answers to all of them and make it clear that I am wrong / lying...

1. Can you prove beyond doubt using statistical evidence that games are rigged / compensated?
2. If companies can use your account ID (given you're logged in) why would they NEED to use your IP address for anything other than AML and some other security checks (for example).
3. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose.
4. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
5. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
6. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
7. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -

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- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
8. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

You're wasting your time @trancemonkey - you could provide them with source code for any game they choose as well as full access to servers and they'd still just say you'd provided them with the 'unaltered' version (pre-html5 where all the rigged algorithms were added!) or that the casino's are obviously utilizing Spectre to perform MitM attacks or that because there's code to track IP's it's obviously used to compensate based on a player by player basis- rather than being a necessity (how the hell would the game know where to send the spin result without player ID?)

You could categorically prove that MAC addresses aren't tracked and then they'd just swivel to saying Hardware ID is tracked, or Facebook pixels or some other nonsense.

It's shocking how vehemently self-assured these people's arguments are without the slightest iota of proof. If I honestly thought something was up I would instantly start carefully logging information to prove my case- not come and insult a bunch of industry veterans because I only just found out what a MAC address is.

edit: Proof is not your own memory of that time you won a lot and then suddenly started not winning a lot.

 

[trancemonkey]

You're wasting your time @trancemonkey - you could provide them with source code for any game they choose as well as full access to servers and they'd still just say you'd provided them with the 'unaltered' version (pre-html5 where all the rigged algorithms were added!) or that the casino's are obviously utilizing Spectre to perform MitM attacks or that because there's code to track IP's it's obviously used to compensate based on a player by player basis- rather than being a necessity (how the hell would the game know where to send the spin result without player ID?)

You could categorically prove that MAC addresses aren't tracked and then they'd just swivel to saying Hardware ID is tracked, or Facebook pixels or some other nonsense.

It's shocking how vehemently self-assured these people's arguments are without the slightest iota of proof. If I honestly thought something was up I would instantly start carefully logging information to prove my case- not come and insult a bunch of industry veterans because I only just found out what a MAC address is.

edit: Proof is not your own memory of that time you won a lot and then suddenly started not winning a lot.

You're right... but sometimes I can't help defending myself and my colleagues against untruths and lies.

 

[dunover]

Anyway, I'm off for a gamble now on my favourite slots:
Riggy Riches
Rig Kahuna
Rignarok
Finagler And The Swirly Spin
Jack Scammer

 

[Abbe77]

If i rewind time 3 years back i had the run of my lifetime. I had several huge wins. 10k euros. 15k euros. And so on.

My usual play style is deposit 100-200 and bet 1. If i win i might go to 2-4 euro bets. But after that year that i had these insane wins back to back everything has gone to shit.

Im not even exagerating if i say i lost about 80 deposits straight before i had a cashout after that last win. Im about 1/50 deposits is a withdrawal ratio since then. In fact it has gotten so bad im concidering throwing in the towel.

I have done(have gotten stats from some casinos) about 700 000 spins on book og dead and my biggest win is 750x bet. About 500k spins on cazino zeppelin and never had a wildline. The last two years i probably lost about 50 000 euros playing 1 stake on average. Then you add up all the match bonuses and comps. And we are talking over a million-2 million spins and never didd i get any win above 750x bet in that time.

Funny thing before that i had multiple huge wins on different slots.

Takeaway is:

1. Slots are not the same at all. Lose faster now than before and big wins are much less common.

2. Providers and casinos have allot to gain from adjusting rtp for players individually witch im sure they do. If they have a person that is a problem gambler and chases losses. Then let that person lose all the time. A big time spender that never or rarly cashes out wins? Let him win now and then. And so on. See streamers i play probably the same amount of play as some of those streamers and i have insane losses. And magicly every streamer on twitch is winning every week... go figure

Right on the spot. My experience is exactly the same. I have been doing more than 1.5 million spins on Bonanza the rapist the last 1.5 years easy. My biggest win 500x one time out of all spins. The last 4 month hundreds of deposits and not one withrawal. Not even one retrigger in the feature games last 4 month and an average of 2000 spins to get the feature game over all the time. 95% of the feature games 25x-50x wins and the usually up to 8x multiplier with 3-4 line staked or one single 6 liner with q or J. Even 100x is rare. Base game highest win 200x of all time for me. Random is a world of nature, therefore computer software can not be random.

I am down 90 000+ euro on the fraud BTG slotmachines and I tried many online casinos same disaster. I have throw in the towel and stop play online casinos. Online casinos is a big vomit.

 

[funnymunny]

I knew I shouldn't have started in this thread, but as I'm here...

...
The thread has developed into theories and experiences of everyone else. As for Funnymunny attempting to discredit my factual post about Pokerstars don't make me laugh. I've posted the link to Forbes stating the $731 Million they were ordered to pay to the US government in civil charges.

Perhaps because there was not 1 single lawyer that would argue the 'skill vs luck' case in the courts. It went round and round in circles for years (hence the 4-5 year gap between the implementation of UIGEA (when the US Gov said online gambling is bad) and 'Black Friday' (when the US Gov finally acted on the likes of PS, FT & UB)). Yes, they had to pay the US Gov fines, but no one was prosecuted (because of aforementioned skill vs luck argument not being able to hold water).

As you have stated, this was a civil penalty. No criminal charges were (or ever have been) brought.

An he has not provided any factual evidence that they do not rig the Deck after the flop. Nor have you come up with factual evidence that slots aren't coded in such a way that the RTP is actually determined by individual players and not the entire online pool.

Did you watch the video on the link I posted - you know, where they stated that post-flop actions are dictated by random events (like light bouncing off photons). Do you seriously believe you can rig radiation and light?!

You are the one trying to disprove the site, the testing houses and the Regulators that approve the PokerStars RNG. As such, it's you that needs to provide evidence that all these entity's are wrong, not me to reinforce / prove once again what they have already stated and certified.

Furthermore just so happens funnymunnys account states his location to be Isle of Man a tax haven for any corrupt corporate business or gambling institution as the UK recognizes it as foreign sovereignty therefore legally the UK would find it extremely hard to take these corrupt companies on.

Yes, the Isle of Man. The only .com licensing regime where no players have lost money as a result of a gaming company's insolvency & hence the reason why many of the worlds largest gaming companies (like PokerStars, Microgaming, GVC and Playtech) are headquartered here.

Also one of the few jurisdictions that was on the UK 'white-list' prior to the implementation of their own licensing regime.


As for being a "haven", please do your homework... Moodys (a world respected global leader in capital reviews) have confirmed that they had to downgrade the Isle of Man's rating (from Aa1 to Aa2) precisely because of the UK's financial situation...

"The announcement follows Moody's recent downgrade of the United Kingdom's (UK) government rating to Aa2 from Aa1, with a change in outlook to stable from negative. In this context, the downgrade of the IoM's ratings reflects Moody's view that the UK's sovereign credit trend continues to have a significant impact on the IoM's credit profile, due to the close and material institutional, economic and financial linkages between the two jurisdictions." ​

Source and continues

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.

Based on your bizarre claim, why would the UK challenge the integrity of a country that is better rated / respected in the sector?

The Isle of Man is also rated as a financial jurisdiction higher than other countries that have the same profile. (I.e. a financial and gambling hub (such as Gibraltar and Malta. (

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))).

I'm not saying any country is faultless, just that perhaps you've used some the Isle of Man's strengths to somehow come across as weaknesses?! *shrugs*

So please to try to undermine my friend!

We are not trying to undermine you - your speculation drives you to a different conclusion to the facts that I (and many other contributors) know and have provided. I appreciate it can be difficult to accept a viewpoint that is different from your own, but sometimes I'm afraid we all have to swallow the bitterest of pills.

 

[trancemonkey]

. Random is a world of nature, therefore computer software can not be random.

Absolutely pure random, no. Random to the highest degree we can get to currently, yes. Look up the Mersenne Twister PRNG and then tell me how that is "rigged"... it isn't. It's ransom enough to pass all tests of randomness.

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Absolutely pure random, no. Random to the highest degree we can get to currently, yes. Look up the Mersenne Twister PRNG and then tell me how that is "rigged"... it isn't. It's ransom enough to pass all tests of randomness.

Nah man, it's "Pseudo" "Random" aka "Rigged"

 

[Abbe77]

Absolutely pure random, no. Random to the highest degree we can get to currently, yes. Look up the Mersenne Twister PRNG and then tell me how that is "rigged"... it isn't. It's ransom enough to pass all tests of randomness.

A computer software can be manipulated at anytime. A volcano can not be manupulated to an eruption.

Every online casino controls their RTP and it's down to every casino to set their RTP. They can change it at anytime and by that the outcome from a slot will change so how random is that??

Everything human made can be manupulated and specially software.

It is not a slump that online gambling has many complaints and millions of cases has to do with fraudsters, scammers, Many cases gamblers got their wins confiscated without reasons, problems with withdrawals, blocked accounts. It's a fact. We can defend this online made out fantasy world until we get blue in the face but the facts are there. Many cases with complaints, it must mean something?!

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

My working theory on the slot conspiracy theorist is so: "I'm too smart to get fleeced by a machine, therefore the machine cheated".

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Also what is with this conflation between two completely different issues: "some casinos encourage people to gamble too much or use predatory bonus terms- therefore the entire industry is corrupt" ?

But I still think the basic problem is people simply do not understand probability- as the above poster said "they control the rtp so how is that random???" The answer to that has of course been posted a million times before.

Sorry I'm tapping out of the argument, some people just do not want to accept that they played a FAIR game of chance and lost, repeatedly, as per design.


My working theory on the slot conspiracy theorist is so: "I'm too smart to get fleeced by a machine, therefore the machine cheated".

 

[dionysus]

A computer software can be manipulated at anytime. A volcano can not be manupulated to an eruption.
!

Sure it can

www.wired.com

 

[funnymunny]

...
Every online casino controls their RTP and it's down to every casino to set their RTP.
...

Sorry, but this is not 100% true...

Online casinos that have direct integrations with some content providers may have the choice of their desired RTP, but this is not a feature offered by all providers.

Online casinos that have their content aggregated from indirect integrations / via a 3rd party (e.g. Nyx), are most unlikely to be able to select their RTP / will only have one version of each game offered.

A small, but significant point.

 

[pinnit2014]

Sure it can

www.wired.com

I was going to say that I was watching a cartoon/animation (Kong King of the Apes on Netflix) and the baddie in it managed to do so...

But your link looks like it carries more validity

 

[dogshead1]

I can handle the general ignorance of probability but this constant childish name calling and insistence you're be "ganged up on" because people are responding rationally to your paranoia is just unbearable.

Can we move this to the "rigged" thread now?

If its unbearable why are your even following the thread and responding........Oh that's rights because your trolling!!! And the Mods wont move the thread because no one has mentioned rigged.

 

[dogshead1]

How is that proof? Fruit machines are compensated and everyone knows it... It's also a local compensator on one machine from one provider. It isn't in the slightest comparable to an online slot...

Never said it was proof, your bending things again to tailor your posts into a debunk and trollish behavior. Your so transparent its unreal. And if you think that people will believe that online slots do not follow the same concept in development and thereafter your a fool. And finally the title of the thread is your MAC is being tracked. Your the one who's spiraled the whole debate towards the rigged theory with your back up claims of fair game and no conspiracy and a squeaky clean industry. Seems to me you cant handle a debate when the majority are against you and turn to one subject and one alone then transfer the blame of the debate to one other that subject is a fictional subject irrelevant to the debate but a defense of a profession you used to work. A few post up you admit you no longer develop the games. Just because you used to develop slots does know make you an expert of all knowledge that goes on I'm afraid. I can also recall only few months ago you tried to quash a post of mine one again about bonanza and you said you had inside knowledge they were not rigged because you develop them. Well you either do or you don't make your mind up Trancemonkey!

 

[dogshead1]

It's not underhand... It's business. The same in most businesses - they will do whatever they can to get you to spend as much as possible. That's the economics of business my friend.

Is it good to encourage people to lose money - no arguably not. But you aren't MAKING them. They have a choice.

It's also business to troll through gambling forums for these exact discussions and single out members with questions or question the industry because after all it is open public debate and bad for business! People do get paid a wage for this you know.

 

[TheresNoDInBonanza]

Just because you used to develop slots does know make you an expert of all knowledge that goes on I'm afraid.

Yes that would be you, because you...?

 

[Abbe77]

It's also business to troll through gambling forums for these exact discussions and single out members with questions or question the industry because after all it is open public debate and bad for business! People do get paid a wage for this you know.

The ones who defends the fraud industry most of the time is the afiliated ones and we know why. They take side with the casino because of their own interests to make money out of other people's loses to feed up their own addiction.

 

[interlog]

Right on the spot. My experience is exactly the same. I have been doing more than 1.5 million spins on Bonanza the rapist the last 1.5 years easy. My biggest win 500x one time out of all spins. The last 4 month hundreds of deposits and not one withrawal. Not even one retrigger in the feature games last 4 month and an average of 2000 spins to get the feature game over all the time. 95% of the feature games 25x-50x wins and the usually up to 8x multiplier with 3-4 line staked or one single 6 liner with q or J. Even 100x is rare. Base game highest win 200x of all time for me. Random is a world of nature, therefore computer software can not be random.

I am down 90 000+ euro on the fraud BTG slotmachines and I tried many online casinos same disaster. I have throw in the towel and stop play online casinos. Online casinos is a big vomit.

Well, I have done fewer spins and managed over 1,000x on Bonanza and over 750x on Raging Rhino. Perhaps you have been unlucky not to have hit those insane wins those two slots are capable of.