Roulette69 issue - PAB rejected - player upset

[RobWin]

I can see that point Spear, but the question to be answered first is the whole 'chicken or the egg' thing. If they opened another account, or claimed first deposit bonuses on a computer or site etc where someone else has claimed a bonus BEFORE they made other deposits, then the account is effectively fraudulent
.....

What if they were using the computer that they bought second hand from the neighbor down the street? And just by coincidence that neighbor had also had an account at the casino unannounced to the new owner of said computer...
____
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[Casinomeister]

This whole thread is such bullshit.

@ the OP - I searched for your PAB and couldn't find one. Your first post discusses whether or not you should (or if your friend should) try Roulette69.

Eh? was that you or your "friend". I spent a bit of time this morning being rather confused.

But this is besides the point. The account for dannyg86 was closed due to a bogus PAB. It's bogus. We don't make these decisions unless we are satisfied with either what the casino provides, or what we have on our own.

Sorry, I shouldn't come accross as having a go at Bryan and Max so much, just that I don't like being called a fraudster and being barred from telling the public about my experience....

This is such bullshit - you are having a go at us, dragging our names through the mud, making unfounded and untrue accusations. What a dick!

You could have simply emailed me and asked me what was up - that we were mistaken - that there was nothing funky going on with you and the other accounts you are connected with. I would have been more than pleased to help you out. But you decide to post a bunch of bullshit at 5 in the morning through your "friend's" account.

As for how this site generates income - this is always been made clear that it is a combination of different models of income, (media buys, aff, CPA, etc.,). Obviously, this is totally irrelevant and is just a means for the OP to make more bogus accusations. I don't know what the overhanging issue of this is. BTW - affiliate is synonymous with webmaster for many people, that's how it was implied at the Awards ceremony in London 2008. People liked my website, they voted for me - simple as that. It has nothing to do with how one is generating income.

 

[chuchu59]

As I recall, I cashed out about $1000 from a $50 deposit on the signup bonus- so they didnt really know if I would be back, but they paid me nonetheless. No problems at all.

One thing I CAN gaurantee is that Max and Bryan will ALWAYS treat each PAB fairly and take the players' claim at face value, until such time as evidence appears to the contrary.

If Max banned you for a fraudulent claim, then I would have to say there must be something you're not telling us.....and maybe you know that Max can't tell us for security reasons (i.e. it may reveal how the casinos detect fraud etc)....so he cant really provide all the necessary evidence.

I can't remember a member being re-instated after being banned for a dodgy PAB with a "sorry we got it all wrong" from CM. Why? Because CM doesnt take this decision lightly and he must have been VERY sure of what happened.

If you ARE telling the FULL story, and you are proven right and your membership is re-instated, I will donate $50 to your favorite charity.

I am also game. Make it $100 buddy.

 

[Casinomeister]

@ dannyg86

Are you going to hand over the sally_bairnish account back to your "friend" and stay out of the forum, or do I have to close this account as well?

 

[Nifty29]

But this is besides the point. The account for dannyg86 was closed due to a bogus PAB. It's bogus. We don't make these decisions unless we are satisfied with either what the casino provides, or what we have on our own.

Well I trust Bryan 100% so I think we can accept that the OP was up to no good at Roulette69. It doesnt matter what it was exactly - the PAB process is above reproach IMO.

Fraudsters make it more difficult for players like me to enjoy reasonable promotions and hassle-free withdrawals, so HANG 'EM ALL I say!!

BTW - the fact that the OP was happy to use someone elses account to post here when they KNEW they were personally banned probably sheds some light on who we are dealing with, and just makes the whole fraud thing even more believable.

 

[Tengil]

Personally being a "victim" of false accusations of being linked to other accounts I have a hard time believing any casinos accusations of that. And in my case they seemed to be sure about it. Until I see any proof myself Im always going to be sceptic.

And in the OPs case it involved slots play without a bonus which is the most -EV thing you can do at a casino. So there would have been no advantage whatsoever to deliberately brake any T&Cs.

And finally posters and casinos alike should refrain in using the term "fraudster" as they currently do. Having multiple accounts for example or making chargebacks is not fraud.

Edit: I dont think a casino deliberately makes false accusations. They make mistakes all the time.

 

[Nifty29]

Having multiple accounts for example or making chargebacks is not fraud.

Multiple accounts = breaks Terms and Conditions so you're right it isnt really fraud. If you claim a signup bonus on all of them, then you are deliberately claiming what you are not entitled to so that is fraud from the casino's point of view.

Chargebacks = can be fraudulent, depending on why they are initiated. If you receive the service you paid for, and then chargeback, its fraud.

Im not a legal expert, but it seems common sense to me.

 

[jetset]

I disagree with Spiderlegz, and especially the comment regarding fraudsters.

For my money, when anyone uses deception or dishonesty to obtain an advantage that is not due it is fraud. And regardless of whether it's a player, an affiliate or a casino operator, such a person may rightfully be labelled - in my opinion - "fraudster."

 

[Casinomeister]

...BTW - the fact that the OP was happy to use someone elses account to post here when they KNEW they were personally banned probably sheds some light on who we are dealing with, and just makes the whole fraud thing even more believable.

Now how odd is that? How many people here know other people in the real world that have accounts in this forum?

Comparing the OP's post with the original PAB, the "Here's the story;" section is a copy and paste job. It has the same punctuation errors, same misspellings, most of it is verbatim sans a couple of improvements.

So either dannyg86 and sally_bairnish are on the same computer, or they are privy to this text posted elsewhere on the Internet and making copy and paste jobs with that.

"The customer claimed explicitly that he came to our site because he was speaking to some people at CasinoMeister about our bonuses. He signed up and played with us in August..."

Funny how dannyg86 signed up here in October only to PAB, yet he signed up at Roulette69 in August. So this is more bullshit from the player. Who was he talking to here? Perhaps it was via sally_bairnish's account who made an inquiry about Roulette69 here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/hey-people.32191/

 

[jetset]

Jeez - as we've noted on other occasions, some of these folks can't even deceive efficiently

 

[Casinomeister]

For what it's worth, IMO if you are trying to deceive people, that's fraud.

And it's not like this guy has hit a dead end, there are other routes he can take. If he has a solid case, he can address this to the software provider, gaming jurisdiction, or even his lawyer for that matter.

I could have offered him more assistance, but he chose to deal with this like a juvenile and use the fora to beat me up. So that option has been shit-canned.

I have no idea why I put up with this crap.

 

[Casinomeister]

The bottom line is - when a player is accused of fraud - in this case acting within a syndicate - the casino will not explain their internal fraud investigation procedures, and they certainly won't share the details of other players with these people as well.

And this seems to be a standard operating procedure for these types of players: they accuse me of being crook - of taking "hush" money, of "protecting" my cash flow in the most public fora. They make these taunts hoping that I'll "cave" and tell them detail by detail what they did wrong.

Sorry - this doesn't work.

 

[KasinoKing]

The bottom line is - when a player is accused of fraud - in this case acting within a syndicate - the casino will not explain their internal fraud investigation procedures, and they certainly won't share the details of other players with these people as well.

Obviously you know more details than I, but can you be 100% sure the casino is correct?
Remember the Fortune Lounge fraud fiasco where masses of innocent players got tarred as fraudsters? Eventually FL admitted they had made a mistake and put things right.
If it can happen once, it can happen again.

Personally I am leaning towards believing the OP here and I would also like to have more details of the casino's case against him. For me it's all just too vague...

KK

 

[Casinomeister]

Obviously you know more details than I, but can you be 100% sure the casino is correct?
Remember the Fortune Lounge fraud fiasco where masses of innocent players got tarred as fraudsters? Eventually FL admitted they had made a mistake and put things right.
If it can happen once, it can happen again.

Personally I am leaning towards believing the OP here and I would also like to have more details of the casino's case against him. For me it's all just too vague...

KK

You're referring to a completely different situation. The FL fiasco had to do with FL having bad terms and conditions, and they locked players accounts because they didn't like the way they played. There was a large amount of fraud involved as well - and these guys were busted, and their accounts were locked. The players who were told at first they wouldn't be paid eventually were paid.

This is an issue of a player belonging to a syndicate. I'm not going to entertain this thread any more with findings etc. If you want to believe this guy - go ahead. I don't believe him, Max doesn't, and neither does the casino.

 

[LonelyHearts]

All I would like to know is. The OP stated he won without a bonus; with his own money. Is this true or not?

 

[Nifty29]

All I would like to know is. The OP stated he won without a bonus; with his own money. Is this true or not?

His last deposit was without a bonus - HOWEVER - and its a BIG HOWEVER - it seems he was part of a syndicate which is a huge no-no and every casino has terms prohibiting this kind of play as it involves defrauding the casino.

Therefore, it is immaterial whether he deposited and won with or without a bonus as ALL his play and winnings are void.

You might also want to check out CM's earlier post where he links to another post by the OP (or his 'friend' or whatever) saying he was going to give R69 a try. Seems too much of a co-incidence to me.

One thing I know from experience when it comes to online gaming fraud and people claiming they were 'ripped off' and 'scammed' and that they had their accounts locked and winnings confiscated when they did 'nothing wrong' .....when there is smoke there is almost always fire and the poster usually turns out to be as full of wind as a butchers' dog.

As I said, $50 to charity if Im wrong and a public apology to the OP. I havent written it yet.

 

[newjam]

This thread is very confusing. On the one hand the op says he won with his own funds playing slots. On the other hand we have the accusation that he is a fraudster by the casino supported by CM. Can we have some clarification please?

a)Did he win playing slots without a bonus?

b)What is the basis of the accusation of fraud?

If he won playing slots without a bonus what kind of fraudlent behaviour justifies confiscation of winnings?

People read this forum so they can decide whether or not a casino is safe to play at, and one of the characteristics of rogues is that they will look for any excuse not to pay a big win. Until we get some clarification, how can we know R69 are not rogue?

 

[maxd]

Bryan has made our position clear and spelled out the law.

I'm going to color in the margins a little, just for context.

The OP has made numerous claims against us and our procedures here, using someone else's account I might add, and that prompts me to want to make a few things clear:

* The OP lied to the casino, which is (part) of what got them banned. They had their chance -- multiple times as it happens -- to explain themselves and their situation to the casino and they chose to lie about it repeatedly. The casino had the proof for some time yet they persisted with the player, giving them the opportunity time and time again to clear up the confusion. All they got were more lies and misdirection. Eventually they'd had enough and shut the player down.

* When I came on board the PABer conveniently skipped all of the above, said nothing of the background regarding multiple account issues, etc and lied to me too, and more than once as I recall.

* The decision in this case was not made in haste nor without careful consideration. I came to my conclusion and asked Bryan's opinion before proceeding with the action against the player. He reviewed the file on the guy and arrived at the same conclusion I did. We then shut the case and the PABer down.

* As is standard procedure in such cases I invited the player to compose a final letter to the casino regarding their case which I would forward to them. This is a final opportunity for the player to state their case, plead their innocence, etc. He completely ignored this and went straight to the threats and accusations, first privately and then here on the forum. Again, this behaviour is typical fraudster MO.

* Throughout this entire process the player has asked over and over "show me the evidence, show me the proof". This is the textbook fraudster appeal because that's what they really want. It's far more valuable to know how they got caught than it is to actually seek a resolution to their case. That is why the evidence is not made available to the player and won't be made available to the public. Simply put it would harm the risk assessment efforts at the casino and that's somewhere they do not want to go. We understand that and respect their needs in this regard.

* And here in this thread the player has continued their MO of lies, distortions and manipulations:

• to say as they do in the thread's title that the PAB was "rejected without evidence" is totally and willfully misrepresenting the situation. The player knows full well that the PAB was processed to completion and the final results were based on evidence from the casino, as even they said later in the thread.
• they claim here to have "broken no Terms" yet have openly admitted to the casino and to us in the PAB that they know that yes they did break the Terms but want to be paid anyway. This is manipulation of the facts as it suits their needs. No one should be rewarded for that kind of duplicity.
• they implied that no communication had been sent to them in the course of the PAB. Another lie as the multiple emails I have on file to and from the player attest to.
• they make accusations and innuendos that Casinomeister is corrupt, beholden to the casinos, whatever. If we're so bloody rotten why is this person here busy trying to get us to help them with their issue? Because the accusations and innuendos are meant to bully us into giving him what he wants which is the evidence the casino has against him. As explained above, that's what fraudsters want. Honest players just want their money and a fair ruling.
• using another member's account to circumvent a ban is strictly verbotten as they well know. Again, they believe their need is greater so damn the Rules and they'll do what they like. Charming.

The bottom line is that this person has repeatedly lied, distorted the facts, and misrepresented themselves. They did this to the casino, to us and to the members of this forum. And they did it all simply to get what they want, namely the evidence against them. They deserve to be thrown to the curb which is what the PAB closure and subsequent ban were supposed to do.

Finally I think those of you who time and time again pipe up with "post the proof!" and "prove it to us!" need to take a good hard look at yourselves and ask what it is you really want. First of all it's not going to happen: we often have to give our word that such evidence will not be shared in order to get the evidence in the first place. That's just part of how the process works.

Next, if you'll notice, this isn't the first time Bryan has been aggravated by situations like this to the point where he's asked out loud "why do I bother?" Someday he's not going to bother anymore which means the PABs will be history and the very thing that gives you the opportunity to appeal your cases to the casino will be gone. Not to mention the fact that I'll be out of a job. Is that _really_ what you want?

If yes then keep it up because you may well get your wish. If not then I suggest you recognize that trust in us and the procedures we've established is an essential part of the PAB process. Support us in that and the PAB process will continue to work. Choose to do otherwise and some day it'll be you with a complaint and nowhere to take it. When that day comes you can pat yourself on the back for a job well done.

 

[Webzcas]

Great post Max

To those who question the impartiality of the Pitch a Bitch Service that Bryan provides via this site for free. I would like to mention the fact that whether a casino is listed as accredited or not has no bearing on the decision that Bryan and Max come to. Indeed it is not uncommon for accredited casinos to fall by the wayside as a result of a PAB.

BTW how Casinomeister.com generates a revenue stream has no impact on a PAB and is completely irrelevant IMO.

I find it quite amazing that a poster who has no history on this forum, suddenly opens an account, submits a PAB then goes shouting foul using another account when the decision reached is one he was not hoping for.

I also find it quite amazing that some forum members of long standing who know how Bryan and Max operate have been taken in somewhat by the op.

The bottom line is that this person has repeatedly lied, distorted the facts, and misrepresented themselves. They did this to the casino, to us and to the members of this forum. And they did it all simply to get what they want, namely the evidence against them. They deserve to be thrown to the curb which is what the PAB closure and subsequent ban were supposed to do.

Max hits the nail squarely on the head there.

 

[chuchu59]

Max,

No need to take it the hard way. There are often instances when not all facts can be revealed and I cannot see why you would have refused the PAB without evidence when you have successfully helped a multitude of other PABers. In a court, a policeman would not have to really prove that a jaywalker had committed an offence simply because there is no reason why he should be prejudiced against the defendant.

There are times when I would have liked to know more about the case in question but somehow it seems there are a lot of holes in the OP's words. Furthermore, as you have stated, why bother with posting at CM if he feels his case is not getting a fair hearing. The mind boggles.

 

[4 of a kind]

Obviously you know more details than I, but can you be 100% sure the casino is correct?
Remember the Fortune Lounge fraud fiasco where masses of innocent players got tarred as fraudsters? Eventually FL admitted they had made a mistake and put things right.
If it can happen once, it can happen again.

Personally I am leaning towards believing the OP here and I would also like to have more details of the casino's case against him. For me it's all just too vague...

KK

I think veterans with the combined experience's of Bryan and Max, making a harsh decision would be conclusive evidence to convict and evict this FRAUDSTER.

I'm even more concerned that KK would even have such a doubt. I hope this response from KK is not related to the negative thread concerning his SlotBeater link, which was removed.

I'm only a member here for less then a year and didn't even blink about this.

 

[LonelyHearts]

Thanks Max!

To the OP: When you lie it makes it hard for people who are pro-players to defend you. I hardly ever side with the casinos. But they gave you every chance in the world to tell the truth. You choose not to. Sorry dude, I was really rooting for you. But when you tells lies to both party. Then sometimes you have to go at it alone.

 

[LaurieJim]

Thanks Max!

To the OP: When you lie it makes it hard for people who are pro-players to defend you. I hardly ever side with the casinos. But they gave you every chance in the world to tell the truth. You choose not to. Sorry dude, I was really rooting for you. But when you tells lies to both party. Then sometimes you have to go at it alone.

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....................laurie

 

[maxd]

No need to take it the hard way.

I understand and appreciate your post Chu but in some ways I had no choice but to take this "the hard way". Reason? Guess how many hours Bryan and I have had to burn today dealing with this issue. I don't know the exact number but I promise you it was too damn many.

Meanwhile Bryan didn't have the time to do his thing maintaining, updating, upgrading and adding to the site content. Not to mention dealing with other issues on the boards.

And I have barely touched the other ongoing PABs today in order to take the time to post as I did above. Not to mention my "moderation" duties, etc, etc.

So it's hours pissed away because a few of the membership here think it's always "player = truth" and "casino = lies" or whatever it is that prompts them to side with someone who starts off flaunting the site Rules and goes on to spin off accusations and tall tales that are only too quickly snatched up by others and the calls for "disclosure" and "transparency" and all the rest of it begin.

People need to understand that "disclosure" and "transparency" are pointless demands when it comes to the PAB process. As it (now) states right up front in the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ:

NOTE: The Pitch-A-Bitch process is a private exchange between the complainant, our staff and the casino representatives, staff and management. Our records regarding PABs past or present are only available to authorized Casinomeister staff. In particular complainants should not expect that information gathered regarding their casino activities will made available to them.

This is the basic nature of the PAB process and there is no reason to expect that will change within the foreseeable future. In other words the PAB process is available to but not open to the Casinomeister membership. Not now, not ever.

 

[Tengil]

Going back to the term fraud. Seriously those who accuse anyone of fraud, often misused tho, should put up the evidence or stay quiet. Use cheater or some other term instead. Not directly related to this issue.

And the player really cant do anything more as the casino is licensed in Malta, it could aswell be licensed in North Korea. And the software providers never has given a shit what happens with their licensees.