Roguish PKR revoking bonus for no reason.

[topoor]

Max, the reason I made my comment regarding if I had known about PKR, I wouldnt have deposited etc was meant to highlight the need for quick action. I might well be the first complainant but I am not the only one and if PKR/Alderney are highlighted as having issues now then others wont get bitten.

Does it really have to get to the point were a multitude of players are defrauded before action is taken?

I havent forgotten that you disagree with the PKR stance but I dont see the need for a comment such as "give them the benefit of the doubt". It suggesed to me that you agree they have done wrong but only to me so lets see who else they rip off.

If however I have misinterpreted your comments and you fully intend to rogue them if they fail to meet the standards and expectations of the PAB process then I apologise. I have not been through this before and have no experience of anything similar.

 

[maxd]

... Does it really have to get to the point were a multitude of players are defrauded before action is taken? ... Its suggests to me that you agree they have done wrong but only to me so lets see who else they rip off.

Again, I must take exception with your (unfounded) assumptions. The way the PABs normally work is that I give the casino several chances over the course of a few weeks to do the right thing in regards to a specific case. That's one case, such as your own, not multiple cases.

If at the end of that process they are still in breach of our basic expectations for casino conduct then I issue a Warning and begin the Rogue process on them.

So no, haste is not part of this process, simply because it can't be and maintain the success ratio that we try to achieve. The goal of the PAB process is to get cases successfully resolved wherever possible -- that usually means getting players paid what they are owed-- not to issue as many Warnings and Rogue listings as possible.

 

[topoor]

I have edited my post and returned to read yours so there may be some crossover. I felt you might have taken it as you did which is why I edited it.

I think we are on the same page now I understand the process and your outlook. Im sorry for any confusion and would appreciate if we could move forward.

 

[maxd]

... would appreciate if we could move forward.

On that we most certainly do agree.

 

[Kodi]

hey topoor, maxd and others

what are the possibilites of sue PKR Casino?

Im mean, how much would it costs? and is this possible? what court are correct to sent diligence?

 

[topoor]

Due to the sums involved I am considering the small claims court. With the small claims court costs are not recoverable so if I lost I lose nothing other than the filing fee.

Obviously I will await the PAB.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Since Alderney showed that "bonus abuse" took place with the initial sign-up bonus, PKR should never have lured the player back in with an even larger offer. They should have locked the account straight after the initial bonus was "abused". PKR offered the reload when it was already the case that the player had "abused" the bonus, and would probably do the same again with the second one. This is simply a case of bait and switch.

Now we know where Alderney stand with regard to "bonus abuse", players are not allowed to play best strategy to win as much as possible, but must go beyond the terms and conditions by an unspecified amount.

The Moneybookers incident seems rather too much of a co-incidence, and topoor did say that a member of their staff let slip that PKR was the complainant. Since Alderney have not found that fraud was involved, PKR have breached the data protection act by issuing a "fraud report" to Moneybookers for what is simply "advantage play". A complaint should be made direct to the information commissioner now that you have a statement from Alderney as to exactly what took place. The Data Protection act only allows the passing of data in the case of fraud or suspected money laundering. If it was only PKR that was transacted with using the Moneybookers account, there can only be one merchant that complained.

I cannot see how Moneybookers can justify closing accounts simply because their customer is an "advantage player".

There would be no point in sueing PKR over the second bonus, the main problem is the information passed to Moneybookers.

There are other Ewallets available, but don't forget that Playtech have a central database of "bonus abusers", which means topoor should not play at any other Playtech casinos, otherwise either the bonus will not be credited, or another attempt will be made to confiscate winnings.

The small claims court would at least limit the amount payable to take action, even if it failed.

 

[Fleur-De-Lis]

Facts-less, over-emotional post to follow

Well... I do not play in PKR, and it may be none of my business, but I am truly appalled by the so-far outcome of the case. It is understandable that when casino's reps offer you bonuses and sweet-talk you into depositing they want you to lose (otherwise, how they'd pay their bills? ), however decent enterprises somehow manage to handle the situations when player actually wins, not loses.
Not a bonus person till recently, I took up two signup bonus offers just last week, met WR and won nice money in both cases, and were paid in few hours (kudos to Intercasino and Canbet )

At the same time, it appears as if roguish and unscrupulous operators of PKR kind simply cannot accept the fact that their tight 'player-unfriendly' bonus terms can be beaten in an honest way and a player can end up winning... Apparently, PKR were clearly disgusted when OP managed to meet WR, win and cashout the first time around. Looks like they could not live with that, so they tried a second-chance offer, in hope she would fail this time... and the fact that she did not lose her money *again* drove them mad... so they screamed murder

Dear topoor... please accept sincere thanks for bringing this matter up and making us players here aware of this shame of a casino. I am so sorry for all the trouble and unpleasantness you had to go through. I do hope your next choice of a casino will be a better one, and you would have lots of fun, great wins and positive-only experience. Take care.
Fleur

 

[chuchu59]

Alderney has sided with PKR. These are the reasons.

You made two large deposits, $200 and $500. The first depost of $200 is the maximum eligible amount for a first time deposit bonus. The second deposit is again the maximum eligible amount for reload bonus.

As soon as the bonuses were cleared you requested a withdrawal, each time within five minutes of clearing the specific bonus.

You did not engage in any play between the first withdrawal and the second deposit when the reload bonus became available.

The only game you played was casino hold em.

The vast majority of the bets you made were the minimum $1. This is quite a small bet amount when compared to the amounts that you deposited. Only the basic main bet was played, never the side bet (AA bet).

The total amount you bet on the account was $20,002.00, this reflects the $10,000 bet to claim the first deposit bonus and then a second $10,000 to claim the reload bonus. It is clear that as soon as the bonus was released no more games were played.

Play only occured while a bonus was pending.


So there you have it, if a casino invites you to an offer and you take them up on it, follow the terms to the letter and dont breach any rule or law the casino is allowed to deny you the bonus. This is the finding of the Alderney Gambling Commission.

I found this comment particularly laughable:

PKR are more than within their rights to close your account and seize all funds.

So according to Alderney if I break no rules or laws and deposit to a casino they have the right to steal my money should they wish.

Absolute joke. What on earth does this say about the gambling industry?

I am appalled by the reasons given by Alderney for siding with Pkr. If a bonus is awarded and you did not break any of the Ts and Cs whilst playing, they cannot retroactively claim bonus abuse. Certainly, they dont like it and if I were them I will never give you any bonuses again. The result was clear from the outset. If Alderney was only having a look at the play logs to determine whether this was in fact how Topoor was playing, then the result is just like our slot games ie pre-determined once you hit the spin button.

In my view, the stance taken by Alderney only encourages casinos to confiscate winnings. I hope that it can review the whole issue and come up with more solid reasons for its decision - either way. Otherwise, this regulating body will have doubtful integrity and clout.

 

[jetset]

This (the AGCC decision) is absolute nonsense, and takes us back to the dark days when players were so frequently and unfairly screwed by the use of this iniquitous "bonus abuse" allegation, often allied to the notorious FU clause in which management reserves the right to do pretty much what it wants to.

I can't understand why PKR and the AGCC are seemingly incapable of grasping the contractual fundamentals here:

If a casino designs and offers a T&C for a promo and offers it to a player, and that player accepts this and plays within those T&Cs, then the casino has an obligation to pay the player what it has promised in terms of the T&Cs.

Everything turns on compliance with the T&Cs, which should not be corrupted by unfair and non-specific FU clauses or anything else, other than player dishonesty such as fraudulent ID, multiple accounts etc.

Should the casino operator then decide that the player is undesirable, he can bar him from future promos or even from the website entirely....BUT FIRST HE PAYS THE PLAYER WHAT WAS PROMISED IN THE T&Cs.

 

[Rhyzz]

I'd like to get something straight here...

If I decide to deposit with PKR, say $200 to claim the maximum bonus they offer...I then go and play 97% payout slots...I hit a big win towards the end of my play, get my balance up to around $2k or so and continue to play until I meet the wagering requirement for the bonus....they will then remove the bonus and tell me that I'm a bonus abuser?


AGCC Seem to have missed 1 crucial point - the guy is playing Casino Hold'em for god sake. These bonuses are set up in such a way that the house edge should still earn the house a profit. They have some nerve taking the bonus from someone who has met the T&C's of an offer whilst playing a HUGE house advantaged game.

I certainly won't be going near PKR in future... Bonus abuse after playing Casino Hold'em? You're having a laugh.

 

[dominique]

True, playing casino holdem makes it twice as silly. But regardless of what game was played, he needs to be paid.

 

[Rusty]

I have still not heard from the gambling commission as to whether pkr.com are Licensed with them and have sent a follow up email.
This was after an odd telephone conversation in which I was told that they could not give me an answer over the phone.
I have done several searches of licensees on their site including PKR Limited and pkr.com and so far these searches have come up empty.
It is still possible they are licensed under a different name though so I hope for confirmation from the Gambling commission.
I note that the Casino does not advertise they are licensed by the UK gambling commission and this is reserved for the poker site which seems odd.
If it turns out they are not licensed by the UK gambling commission yet advertising that they are, well you can draw your own conclusions.
Lets wait and see.

 

[Snake Eyes]

I have still not heard from the gambling commission as to whether pkr.com are Licensed with them and have sent a follow up email.
This was after an odd telephone conversation in which I was told that they could not give me an answer over the phone.
I have done several searches of licensees on their site including PKR Limited and pkr.com and so far these searches have come up empty.
It is still possible they are licensed under a different name though so I hope for confirmation from the Gambling commission.
I note that the Casino does not advertise they are licensed by the UK gambling commission and this is reserved for the poker site which seems odd.
If it turns out they are not licensed by the UK gambling commission yet advertising that they are, well you can draw your own conclusions.
Lets wait and see.

I believe their UK licence is a Software Operating Licence (Remote) - which authorises their software development

Their casino and poker operations are conducted under an AGCC licence

 

[fatshaft]

I believe their UK licence is a Software Operating Licence (Remote) - which authorises their software development

It is, and is clickable from the link on their homepage giving a full description.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[Rusty]

Thank you both.
It is still not clear to me that Pkr.com is covered by this license as the license covers PKR technolies ltd
"to manufacture, supply, install or adapt gambling software"
It does not state that they are licensed as a remote gaming or casino operator.
It is clear that the above does not cover a remote Casino as they are licensed by Alderney for this operation, so in what part does it cover a remote poker room?
Perhaps someone with a little more knowledge in these matters can clarify.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Thank you both.
It is still not clear to me that Pkr.com is covered by this license as the license covers PKR technolies ltd
"to manufacture, supply, install or adapt gambling software"
It does not state that they are licensed as a remote gaming or casino operator.
It is clear that the above does not cover a remote Casino as they are licensed by Alderney for this operation, so in what part does it cover a remote poker room?
Perhaps someone with a little more knowledge in these matters can clarify.

Their UK held licence doesn't cover casino or poker operations. It is simply software development. I imagine PKR Technologies Ltd are a wholly owend subsidiary

Casino and poker operations will be under their full Alderney licence.

 

[Snake Eyes]

For reference, the provisions of their licence are set out in s.97 of GA2005 (didn't have my copy to hand earlier on)

 

[Rusty]

Thanks Snake,

Hmmm,
This what it states in their link under licensed on the Poker site,

PKR is licensed and regulated by The Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC).

Now correct me if I am wrong but UK gambling commission and Alderney gambling control commission are Two different beasts yet it clearly states they are licensed by the UK gambling commission on the poker site.

It seems that the actual poker site is not licensed and regulated by the UK gambling commission but by Alderney and they are only licensed to provide software by the UK gambling commission,

To some that would look like a sneaky ploy.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Thanks Snake,

Hmmm,
This what it states in their link under licensed on the Poker site,

PKR is licensed and regulated by The Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC).

Now correct me if I am wrong but UK gambling commission and Alderney gambling control commission are Two different beasts yet it clearly states they are licensed by the UK gambling commission on the poker site.

It seems that the actual poker site is not licensed and regulated by the UK gambling commission but by Alderney and they are only licensed to provide software by the UK gambling commission,

To some that would look like a sneaky ploy.

Deception by omission. They must know that it is everyday players that read the site, not lawyers (for the most part), and the obvious interpretation is that the Poker room is licenced by both the AGCC and the UK Gambling Commission, which looks like overkill.
The UK licence is merely one for the company supplying and developing the software, and this is not made clear at all, in fact it is the opposite, both statements are displayed alongside each other without any qualification.

Maybe a few disreputable outfits might cotton on to this, using a software that has a UK development and distribution licence, and then having "Licenced by the UK Gambling Commission", perhaps in the vicinity of the logo for their software, and knowing full well they are obeying the LETTER of the rules, but knowing that players will draw the wrong conclusion from the clever placement that the casino itself holds a UK Gambling Commission licence.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Thanks Snake,

Hmmm,
This what it states in their link under licensed on the Poker site,

PKR is licensed and regulated by The Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC).

Now correct me if I am wrong but UK gambling commission and Alderney gambling control commission are Two different beasts yet it clearly states they are licensed by the UK gambling commission on the poker site.

It seems that the actual poker site is not licensed and regulated by the UK gambling commission but by Alderney and they are only licensed to provide software by the UK gambling commission,

To some that would look like a sneaky ploy.

I don't see it to be honest.

They are licensed by the GC in the UK, and I don't see the problem with them displaying that moniker.

Software design is a very important issue as the goings on with Tokwiro have shown.

I certainly don't think it's a sneaky ploy - and I don't consider them to be misleading anyone.

 

[Rusty]

I don't see it to be honest.

They are licensed by the GC in the UK, and I don't see the problem with them displaying that moniker.

Software design is a very important issue as the goings on with Tokwiro have shown.

I certainly don't think it's a sneaky ploy - and I don't consider them to be misleading anyone.

It is open to interpretation I guess but I am with VWM on this.

I feel the most reputable licensing commission is the UK gambling commission for all sorts of reasons and instantly recognisable to most UK players.
It is misleading in my eyes because anyone visiting that site would expect it to be regulated by the UKGC and if any dispute arose they would no doubt expect to be protected by their authority.
They would feel misled I think.

 

[topoor]

I wouldnt be surprised if that was the intention. The UK seal is one that suggests integrity. Just the way Alderney was supposed to...

 

[topoor]

I advised Moneybookers that the Alderney ruling confirmed that no fraud had taken place but that the dispute with PKR was purely contractual.

They replied with:

Dear Mrs. *****,

Thank you for the updates and your kind cooperation and patience during the whole process. Unfortunately, the fact that the issue has been escalated again and another security audit has been initiated and thoroughly completed based on the additional information you have provided me with did not lead to any changes in their final decision and I must advise you that your Moneybookers account will remain closed.

Your Moneybookers account has been terminated since we have detected a violation of our terms and conditions, please review sections 7.5 and 11 of our Terms and Conditions for more information.

No further processing or administrative charges have been applied to your account and you were allowed to withdraw your whole balance which has been done on 11 Jul 08 18:47.

I would like to kindly advise you to further bring the issue to the attention of the Financial Services Ombudsman in case you feel your case has not been resolved properly or we have not taken into consideration any of your requests or have not provided any of the services we were obliged to provide as agreeed in our Terms and Conditions.

Here are the details you may reach them at:

Financial Ombudsman Service
PO Box 4
South Quay
Plaza183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR

Telephone: 0845 080 1800

E-mail address:enquiries@financial-ombudsman.org.uk

For further information visit the Financial Ombudsman Service website at:www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk More information on how to file an official complaint has been submitted previously and is available again upon request. The flow of events in such a case will be that upon receipt of your complaint, they will provide independent and impartial service without taking sides based on careful investigation.

Please accept my sincerest apologies for any inconvenience caused.

Kind Regards,

Kamelia, moneybookers.com Team

 

[blizeH]

Did you manage to get hold of an e-mail or phone number of someone who's actually quite helpful please topoor? Wouldn't mind contacting them again regarding the $250 bonus they removed from my account upon trying to cashout.

Cheers