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Roguish PKR revoking bonus for no reason.

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by topoor, Jul 9, 2008.

    Jul 9, 2008
  1. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    Hi,

    Last week I signed up for a new account with PKR Casino. I deposited $200 and received the signup bonus. I wagered around $10000 on Casino Holdem and withdrew my money with no problems. A day later I received an email from PKR inviting me to partake in another promotion. This time a 50% reload bonus of $250. Ideposited $500 and again wagered around $10000 on Casino Holdem. This time I did much better and won around $300 when the bonus was released. I withdrew again.

    3 days after my withdrawal I received the following email.

    After a thorough review of your account it is evident that you have abused the PKRCasino Reload bonus.

    Please direct your attention to points 9 and 10 of the bonus Terms & Conditions (see below)

    You have now been permanently banned from PKR and all funds gained by abusing the reload bonus have been seized.

    The decision of the PKRCasino management team is final and no correspondence will be entered into.

    Regards

    Frank
    PKR Security Team
    This email is not visible to you.


    Reload Bonus Terms & Conditions
    (1) To qualify for the reload bonus, you must make a deposit of $25 or more between 21:00:00 GMT on Friday, 04 July 2008 and 23:59:59 GMT on Sunday, 06 July 2008. For the purposes of this bonus for existing PKR customers, a fund transfer into your PKRCasino balance will count as a casino deposit. (2) You must wager a total of forty times the pending bonus amount before the bonus is credited to your account. The pending bonus amount will be equal to 50% of the qualifying deposit amount. To receive the maximum payout of $250 bonus, you must wager $10,000 after making a deposit of at least $500. Wagering requirements only need to be met on the portion of the deposit which qualifies for the deposit bonus, for example, a deposit of $700 will qualify for a bonus of $250, with wagering requirements of $10,000. (3) A maximum of $250 will be paid out in bonuses to any one player. (4) Wagers placed on Blackjack, Pontoon, Baccarat, European or American Roulette, Craps, Sic Bo, Video Poker, or any available variations of these games do not count towards the wagering requirements. (5) Only one bonus per account per household. (6) Once you have successfully met the deposit and wagering requirements for this bonus, the bonus will be automatically credited to your account. (7) Wagering requirements must be completed no later than 23:59:59 GMT on Thursday, 31 July 2008. (8) This offer cannot be used in conjunction with any other offer. Any current bonuses or promotions must be completed before wagering requirements towards this promotion will be valid. (9) PKRCasino reserves the right to take action against any player we believe has abused this bonus in any way. This action may range from a withdrawal of bonus privileges to forced account closure. (10) PKRCasino reserves the right to withhold any bonus payment if it believes that the promotion has been abused and/or where the terms of the offer are not fulfilled, or any irregular wagering patterns are found. (11) PKRCasino reserves the right to withdraw or amend this offer at any time, without prior notice. The decision of the PKRCasino management team is final and no correspondence will be entered into.


    I dont see how I have "abused" anything or anyone? I played a mixture of $1 and $5 bets as I had done for the signup bonus only 2 days earlier. The bonus was released after I had met any wagering requirements so I cannot have done anything that would prohibit its release such as playing a disallowed game as surely it wouldnt have released? I think perhaps it upset them that I had not lost a great deal of money at their casino but rather I won.

    I dont think its fair that this casino should offer a promotion and then renege on it. I am a pensioner who is aged 62 and although I gamble recreatonally I cant afford to risk money when I stand no chance of winning. I have received no money back from PKR, not even my initial $500 deposit for the reload and they do not respond to my emails. They do not have a telephone number either. I am thinking the initial signup bonus was a sweetener to make me think they were reputable and would pay ok. They then get me to deposit twice as much with the reload offer and then rip me off. I wonder if I would have received this treatment if I had lost money. At one point I was down to my last $80 but managed to pull it round so it was not plain sailing.

    It is disgraceful that a company can behave in this manner.

    I would like to take this further. What is the best course of action please?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2008
  2. Jul 9, 2008
  3. Rhyzz

    Rhyzz Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Online Gaming
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Did you play Casino Hold'em exclusively?

    How any company can claim a player who plays Casino Hold'em is a bonus abuser is beyond me, it has a huge house edge.

    I'd be asking for further details if I were you, it seems very strange that would remove your bonus if you're a Hold'em player.
     
  4. Jul 9, 2008
  5. blizeH

    blizeH Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Hi, just to let you know that you're not alone and I had the same e-mail under very similar circumstances.

    I fired off a quick (very polite!) e-mail to them so I'm going to wait to hear a response - will let you know how I get on.
     
  6. Jul 9, 2008
  7. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    They refuse to provide me with further details categorically stating that I am a bonus abuser and they have banned me from their site. I have spoken via live chat with "Motie" a supposed manager whose attitude is an absolute disgrace when asked what I had done replied with "Give us some credit" and that "you know better than me why you chose to abuse the bonus." It literally took me 10 requests for her name and position to get it out of her. I had to pratically beg.

    They refuse to explain any further and will not provide any information on when I can expect to receive my money except to state that someone will be in contact to verify my identity.

    Here is an exerpt from the live chat. I am a 62 year old woman. I have never been treated like this by a casino.

    motie: You violated the terms and conditions of a bonus, we exclude bonus abusers from our site
    Me: how?
    motie: Mrs *****, please give us some credit
    Me: I ask you again, how?
    Me: And please be advised that this chat will be recorded.
    Me: Please clearly state what you mean by "give us some credit"
    motie: it is recorded here too
    Me: Great then there can be no dispute
    Me: I ask again, Please clearly state what you mean by "give us some credit"
    motie: you are banned from our site

    motie: You are not entitled to the bonus. you can only withdraw the remainder of the balance on the account excluding the bonus pending ID verification by our security team
    Me: Why have I not been asked for identity verification?
    Me: And I ask you again. Please clearly state what you mean by "give us some credit"
    motie: see my answer above
    motie: You are not entitled to the bonus. you can only withdraw the remainder of the balance on the account excluding the bonus pending ID verification by our security team
    Me: Why have I not been asked for identity verification? And I ask you again. Please clearly state what you mean by "give us some credit"

    motie: The answer to why you abused the bonus should come from you
    motie: I can see
    Me: excuse me?
    Me: I met all conditions of the bonus
    motie: You know better than me why you chose to abuse the bonus

    I have still not been asked for ID. I have still not been refunded. Nobody should play at this casino.

    Thank you for your post BlizeH, I wonder if there is anyone else who they have done this to?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2008
  8. Jul 9, 2008
  9. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK

    Yes I played Holdem exclusively. A mixture of $1 and $5 bets.
     
  10. Jul 9, 2008
  11. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    I have now received a request for ID. I promptly replied with a copy of my passport and a utility bill. Although quite what this has to do with bonus abuse Im not sure. Another attempt to legitimise non payment perhaps? An attempt to keep all my money?

    Can casinos shout bonus abuse without having or even alluding to some evidence or explanation and get away with it? PKR certainly seem to think so.

    I have PABed.
     
  12. Jul 9, 2008
  13. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Given that play was identical on the two bonuses, then either BOTH were "abused" or neither. They cannot claim only the reload was abused, and not the first.

    Their lack of a reason shows that they are just guessing, no terms have been broken, and they are just sore losers, you did something "impossible", which was to beat a sucker's game twice on the trot, therefore you simply HAVE to be "cheating" in some manner, but they have no idea how, but know that without the bonus you would probably not ended up ahead.

    The typical "bonus abuser" will take the juicy first bonus and run with the money, they would NOT return again for a lesser offer, this is what "loyal players" do - giving the casino a chance to win back some of the money.

    The ID has nothing to do with bonuses, it is becoming routine whenever a payment is made to a player.

    The PAB process may reveal what is going on, but on the face of it, this just looks like a rogue casino miffed that a player won on a high house edge game, one that would normally be a "cash cow" for the casino.

    I have heard worse though, a player of SLOTS was accused of "abusive play", and this surely has to be impossible.
     
    3 people like this.
  14. Jul 10, 2008
  15. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Odder by the minute!

    I have had a look at their site, and they claim to be licenced by both Alderney and the UK Gambling Commission. This is rather odd, as their UK licence is dated 1st Sept 2007, and I recall a press story about the fact that NO online gaming site had bothered with a UK Licence at that stage due possibly to unfavorable 15% tax rates.

    The chat script, if it genuinely comes from a company licenced both by Alderney AND the UK Gambling Commission beggars belief.

    Both licences are available for inspection on the PKR site, and seem genuine looking (but how would players know that anyway).

    I had a look on the Alderney site, and a search for "PKR Casino" yields ZERO matches. Their PDF copy shows they got the licence in 2006, and it is number 23, sadly, the Alderney commission offer no way for players to make an independent check themselves as to whether an online site claiming to be licenced there genuinely is.

    I have serious doubts about this lot now, surely having both a UK and Alderney licence is overkill, meant to impress the unwary.
    If they have indeed got these licences, they have breached their terms.

    For Alderney, the procedure is to formally complain to the site, and then (if no joy) to the Alderney commission.

    I suggest contacting PKR again, making a formal complaint about this sequence of events, and state that if you do not receive a satisfactory responce within, say, 14 days, you will complain directly to the Alderney commission, with the details specified on their site's PDF copy of their licence no 27.

    With luck, this will scare the proverbial out of them, and your deposit at least should return in a flash - winnings can be pursued at leisure.

    As well as Alderney, you could complain to the UK Gambling commission, they claim & display that licence too!

    The casino is Playtech (often software of choice for rogues that feel they are too "posh" for RTG), god only knows what software the poker room is.
     
  16. Jul 10, 2008
  17. pokeraddict

    pokeraddict Webmaster

    Occupation:
    Pro Poker Player
    Location:
    Las Vegas
    It seems to be developed in house as PKR Limited. According to Poker Site Scout the company and server are based in Alderney.
     
  18. Jul 10, 2008
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Well, at least this means their server is where they say it is.

    What kind of CS and management treat a 62 year old woman like that!!!
    One truly regulated by both the Alderney and UK gambling commissions:what: - I find that hard to believe, it is the sort of thing I would expect to see from "sham" licencing juristictions, such as Costa Rica, and in some respects Kahnawake.

    The first thing Max perhaps should do is check that these licence claims are genuine, as if they are not, we can be certain this is a rogue site without further ado. Why won't Alderney list who currently has a licence, it would make it far harder for dodgy operators to stick up the logo when they have no right to. I was on the Alderney site for 20 mins looking for a link to such a list, and it was nowhere to be found.
     
  20. Jul 10, 2008
  21. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    They are claiming to be licensed by Alderney. The email I received advised me to complain to them if I am unhappy.

    "As informed in your chat with Motie, if you wish to make a formal complaint regarding our decision then please contact Alderney at This email is not visible to you. ."

    The offical line from PKR when asked to explain what I have done wrong is:

    motie: I do not dicuss abuse technic with customers or past customers.

    Motie Bring is the head of transaction services.
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2008
  22. Jul 10, 2008
  23. Rhyzz

    Rhyzz Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Online Gaming
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They may consider 'abuse' to be the fact that you deposited, withdrew, deposited & withdrew.

    So long as the terms of the bonus were met, they cannot take the funds from you, although they can stop you from receiving offers in future. If they didn't then they would be mugs, but still.....

    PKR going through some bad times at the moment anyway from what I hear. Their poker is no longer unique, Ladbrokes and Pokerwize offer a similar product with much higher liquidity and traffic going through the tables. They have launched the Casino probably knowing nothing about the industry and thinking it's going to be a nice easy way to make a little bit of cash.

    Another site ruining the name of Playtech!!
     
  24. Jul 10, 2008
  25. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    What I find most disgraceful here is the attitude of PKR and its staff. They refuse to discuss this with me and the only explanation they offer is "bonus abuse". This is such a wide ranging term and it is one that is totally at their discretion. It is definately suspicious behaviour.
     
  26. Jul 10, 2008
  27. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    I have been trying to get some answers this morning as they have confirmed receipt of my documents by live chat. But they now refuse to communicate with me by chat yet it is a recognised method of communication for them and they have now blocked me from accessing it.

    Victoria: Hi , My name is Victoria Dornan, I am The Head of Client Services
    Me: Hello
    Me: I am trying to ascertain when my money will be returned to me
    Me: I have been treated disgracefully by your staff and company
    Victoria: I would like to speak with you personally about this
    Me: I have made a formal complaint to Alderney and posted on the casinomeister website
    Victoria: Please can you provide me with a telephone number
    Me: I will not discuss this issue by any media that does not ensure record keeping
    Me: I have done nothing wrong yet I have been abused and victimised. I am 62 years old and retired
    Me: I do not deserve this treatment
    Victoria: Unless you can provide a phone number I can not discuss this further
    Me: Please explain why?
    Victoria: You have come through to the Head of Department so you can not go any higher
    Me: I would have thought that a reputable company would be happy to communicate officially.
    Me: Please clearly explain why you will not communicate with me in writing?
    Victoria: I only deal with customers personally
    Victoria: by telephone
    Me: I only deal with frauds when records can be kept
    Victoria: so unless you can provide me your number i will have to terminate this discussion
    Me: I would advise you to think very carefully about that
    Victoria: if you would like something in writing that is absolutely no problem
    Victoria: We will write to you by email
    Me: As I have stated I will not communicate by any media that a record cannot be kept of
    Victoria: sure
    Victoria: we will write to you
    Me: I am offended that you will not speak to my reasonably
    Me: *me
    Victoria: so for now please be patient while we work this though and we will write to you
    Me: No
    Victoria: you have 2 options , either let me speak with you in a professional manner or we will write to you
    Me: Please explain this situation to me.
    Victoria: which option would you like to take?
    Me: A professional manner is in writing. Why are you so insistent on no records
    Victoria: ok then I will leave this conversation now and we will write to you
    Victoria: thank you for your patience
    Me: NO
    Victoria: good bye
    Me: Please explain why you refuse to use a vehicle that your
    info: Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.

    Of course at this point I will not communicate by any means other than in writing because I get the feeling that I will need evidence to support anything that is said. The live chat would be useful as it would allow discussion. Obiviously something that they are only interested in when there are no records.
     
  28. Jul 10, 2008
  29. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    I have sent an email to the Alderney Gambling Commission and copied in This email is not visible to you.. 30 mins later I received my original deposit back. Before I realised they had given me the refund I went to a local internet cafe and managed to get onto live chat.

    Unbeliveable:

    me: I do not appreciate being disconnected mid sentence
    me: I also do not appreciate being blocked from accessing the live chat
    me: I have an ongoing issue and I want to discuss it
    Peter: this is because there is nothing further for CS to discuss with you
    Peter: you have lodged a complaint with the AGCC
    Peter: all further correspondence must be with them
    Peter: as per their rules
    me: Their rules state that you should discuss the issue with the partu concerned
    me: and try to resolve the issue
    me: The AGCC has been alerted to your disgraceful behaviour
    me: At this time it is an alert
    me: Whilst you have my money I will not go away
    Peter: Motie has informed me that the remaining balance on your account has been sent to your moneybookers account, total: 515
    me: You have told me that I will receive my money back so I am trying to find out when
    Peter: we are, of course, retaining the bonus
    Peter: so i recommend that you check your MB account
    me: ANd you still refuse to explain why?
    Peter: We're not authorised to explain in detail for security reasons
    me: Then I will do my best to disgrace your company in public
    me: I have already begun. You will NOT get away with this. Evryone wil know
    Peter: look at it this way; if by some chance you actually don't know how to abuse our bonuses - there's no way we're about to tell you how
    me: I look at it as theft
    Peter: theft how? we've sent your money back
    Peter: we just retained our own
    Peter: check your moneybookers account
    me: HOW?
    me: You fraudulently got me to deposit and wager
    me: You then refused to provide the incentive or bonus
    me: YOU ARE SIMPLY CHEATS
    Peter: bonuses are not a consumer right, your decisions are your own
    me: Oh no no no
    Peter: no no no?
    me: You refusing to provide the bonus is exactly the same as you refusing to pay a winning bet
    me: You promised me that you would pay me $250 if I wagered 10000 on allowed games
    me: End of story you cheated
    Peter: let's take a look at what you agreed to when using the bonus:
    Peter: "PKRCasino reserves the right to withdraw or amend this offer at any time, without prior notice. The decision of the PKRCasino management team is final and no correspondence will be entered into."
    Peter: they're found in full here:
    Peter: You must register/login in order to see the link.
    Peter: we are perfectly within our rights
    me: Withdraw or amend the offer not renege
    Peter: withdraw
    Peter: ...
    me: Withdraw does not mean remove once it has been awarded
    Peter: and section 9:
    Peter: PKRCasino reserves the right to withhold any bonus payment if it believes that the promotion has been abused and/or where the terms of the offer are not fulfilled, or any irregular wagering patterns are found.
    me: I am well aware of your terms
    me: and none of them exscuse or explain your actions
    Peter: then you know why it is impossible to accuse us of cheating
    me: Your regulator will find in my favour
    me: It is not
    me: CHEATS
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: I will also be complaining to the Police and the ASA
    me: You will not get away with this.
    Peter: I will not get away with what?
    Peter: informing you of the situation?
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: You will not get away with defrauding me
    Peter: nobody has defrauded you, we provided a service, you used it - we've even sent your money back rather than seizing it
    me: I would have loved to see you try and seize it
    Peter: when you break the terms & conditions of account use, there are consequences
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: Please explain which terms and condtions I broke?
    me: Becasue I am still waiting to know
    Peter: I'm not authorised to discuss it in detail, as mentioned above;
    Peter: if by some chance you actually don't know how to abuse our bonuses - there's no way we're about to tell you how
    me: I do hope you are embarrassed
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: Well done, you have cheated a 62 year old woman
    Peter: you have your money back
    Peter: we've cheated no-one
    me: As I stated this issue will not go away. I am retired and can devote my entire energy to resolving this
    me: You have cheated me
    me: You owe me $250
    Peter: and as such, all correspondence must take place between yourself and the AGCC from now on
    Peter: Customer Support can no longer help you in such cases of financial dispute
    me: I recommend you visit the casinomeister site
    Peter: we will continue to refuse your chats and block any connections you make to Live Chat
    me: you can explain your actions to the gambling world there
    Peter: why not just post this next to your comments:
    Peter: "PKRCasino reserves the right to withhold any bonus payment if it believes that the promotion has been abused and/or where the terms of the offer are not fulfilled, or any irregular wagering patterns are found."
    me: I have already posted it
    Peter: it seems fairly self-explanatory
    Peter: ok grand
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: Most people are appalled
    me: They call it an FU clause which gives you carte blanche to behave as you will
    me: Unacceptable in the gaming world apparantly
    me: and extremely frowned upon by regulators
    Peter: well thanks for giving the opinions of your forum buddies
    Peter: Is there anything else I can help you with?
    me: Is there any other insults you would like to make to the casinomeister site viewers?\
    me: This whole chat will be posted there
    Peter: i meant no insult, i was thanking you for your (and their) feedback


    Under no circumstances can I or will I let this drop now that I have my deposit back. They way they have treated me and spoken to me is disgraceful. They seem to think they have the right to "seize" money! As far as I am aware only the goverment has the power to do that! Who do these people think they are?
     
  30. Jul 10, 2008
  31. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    Their resoning holds no water, don't forget:-

    They INVITED you PERSONALLY to take the promotion, and they knew full well how you were likely to play it, and you played it in exactly the same way as the first time, which was within the rules.

    They have acted against the rules of Alderney because you were INVITED to this second offer, you did not just "take" it. While they can show you the door, they CANNOT go back on a bet they have already accepted just because you won. If Alderney say they can, then they will lose a hell of a lot of respect here, as they probably already have by allowing PKR to behave in this incredibly rude manner to players, where Alderney rules actually REQUIRE them to have a proper and fair internal procedure rather than simply refusing to discuss the matter.

    The invitation itself can be referred to the Advertising Standards Agency, since it was a false offer, and should not have been made to a player who they thought might be taking advantage of them.

    Since this involves Casino Hold'em, and with modest bets between $1 and $5, I find it hard to work out where this "bonus abuse" argument is coming from. They are clearly up to something else, which may explain their unusual reluctance to deal with this matter internally between casino and player.

    I was right about one thing though, it only took 30Mins to at least get your own money back after "name dropping" Alderney and Casinomeister;)

    The fight for the winnings will be harder, but this issue will not go away until a proper explanation as to how a 62 year old woman managed to abuse a bonus with $5 bets on Casino Hold'em is forthcoming - this sounds like normal play to me, and you simply got lucky - you could just as easily have lost, and I bet the casino wouldn't be complaining, and would most likely have sent you a third bonus offer.
     
    3 people like this.
  32. Jul 10, 2008
  33. topoor

    topoor Banned User - Multiple banned forum accounts

    Occupation:
    Professional
    Location:
    UK
    Thanks for your post Vinylweatherman. I have received a response from Alderney advising that they are investigating and that I should not try to communicate with PKR as they will do that on my behalf. I urge anyone (BlizeH?) who has had similar experiences to contact Alderney and make a complaint as in numbers I feel we will have some success.
     
  34. Jul 10, 2008
  35. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    That's good news. It would be worth sending a PM to Max so that he knows Alderney are investigating, as it might be worth his while waiting on that before duplicating effort through the PAB process.

    Hopefully, Alderney will find out what is REALLY going on here, as the tale simply does not make sense, not even the posted chat logs, where they contradict themselves all the time.

    Regulators do not allow "F U Clauses" to be invoked without very good reason. The fact that such terms exist does not make them legal, and Alderney can overrule this term, and force them to remove it if they believe it has been used on a player whose only crime was being lucky.

    I am still a little puzzled as to how they can be licenced with Alderney, yet not exist on the Alderney site under the name that appears on their licence.
    I DID eventually find a full list of licences issued the year before, 2005, and a list of applicants. Not a whiff of PKR in any form at all.

    Their response does though indicate they ARE licenced there, as if they were not, the last thing they would want is to have you engage with the official disputes process with Alderney, whereupon they would be found out.
    They must hold their licence under a different name.
     
    1 person likes this.
  36. Jul 10, 2008
  37. GaryWatson

    GaryWatson Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Marketing Consultant
    Location:
    Europe
    They are listed here

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    1 person likes this.
  38. Jul 10, 2008
  39. blizeH

    blizeH Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Seems I have to wait for the security checks to be processed before they can discuss the promotions issue - they're sure taking their sweet time with it though!
     

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