Roguish PKR revoking bonus for no reason.

[kernow]

Seeing as that Playtech slots have autoplay built in, and autoplay is essentially a bot, I think we can safely say that this statement is incorrect.

But slots are not the game in question in this case. It is Casino Hold 'Em, which does not have an autoplay. There is little/no strategy involved in playing slots, whereas there is in Casino Hold 'Em.

 

[topoor]

This discussion is moot in this thread as I havent used a bot.

In my mind this issue has gone way beyond the bonus removal and is more about the abusive practices of PKR and the seemingly covert link between casinos and Moneybookers.

Thats not to say I dont want my $250 back

 

[vinylweatherman]

Very strange chronology of events.

Did Alderney not mention the basis on which PKR are justifying their confiscation of funds ("bonus abuse" requires definition if it indeed does exist)?

Looking at game history might be akin to looking at Tea Leaves. What on earth are they expecting to see in the Tea Leaves?

If per chance a "bot" is seen in the Tea Leaves should Alderney not then seek your further representations before arriving at a decision? (Wow! You can just imagine the ramifications of an adverse player ruling.)

Having said that it does seem Alderney are moving with some haste toward a thankfully timely resolution which puts the likes of Malta LGA to an absolute shame.

Keep us updated topoor - it's better than watching TV.

>

Not so, where the casino has alleged "abusive play", the playlogs are the best place to look for this. Once the style of play has been looked at, then Alderney can see whether any terms of the bonus have been broken. If PKR turn out to be the ones that made Moneybookers close the account, this will look very bad for them unless there is clear evidence of FRAUD.
Alderney should be informed that this closure of a Moneybookers account seems to be related to this dispute, and I don't expect they will be too happy that their decision has been taken for granted by PKR as being in their favour before they have even had a chance to begin their investigation.

 

[mpt6cas]

Hi i am new here, and very happy of this place.
I also play this reload bonus, but do not cash out yet

I made a winning for 200 $

what do you mean, should i wait with my cash out, cause the chance that i am get banned is over 95 % i think

What should i do, wait and see what happens ?

Please help.

Regards Micka

 

[Roar]

Not so, where the casino has alleged "abusive play", the playlogs are the best place to look for this. Once the style of play has been looked at, then Alderney can see whether any terms of the bonus have been broken. If PKR turn out to be the ones that made Moneybookers close the account, this will look very bad for them unless there is clear evidence of FRAUD.
Alderney should be informed that this closure of a Moneybookers account seems to be related to this dispute, and I don't expect they will be too happy that their decision has been taken for granted by PKR as being in their favour before they have even had a chance to begin their investigation.

I "think" PKR are alleging "bonus abuse" rather than "abusive play". Since "bonus abuse" remains an abstract concept, existing only in the minds of Casinos, it is more than a curiosity just how Alderney plan on approaching and identifying "an undefinable abstract bonus abuse concept" within the Tea Leaves of gaming history.

"Bonus abuse" on a lot of occasions means nothing more than the punter playing his cards correctly (and/or together with an optimal wager strategy).

And I suspect it this type of play PKR consider "bonus abuse". The player dared to play the best strategy he possibly could.

Are Alderney looking for evidence of an "optimal playing strategy" within the gaming history? Are they going to rule against the player for playing his cards correctly?

This is better than TV.

>

 

[spearmaster]

But slots are not the game in question in this case. It is Casino Hold 'Em, which does not have an autoplay. There is little/no strategy involved in playing slots, whereas there is in Casino Hold 'Em.

Had you not referred to slots in your statement, I wouldn't have said anything.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hi i am new here, and very happy of this place.
I also play this reload bonus, but do not cash out yet

I made a winning for 200 $

what do you mean, should i wait with my cash out, cause the chance that i am get banned is over 95 % i think

What should i do, wait and see what happens ?

Please help.

Regards Micka

Make sure you have fully met the terms of this reload, and the general terms of the casino. If so, cash out - do not be tempted to play it all back.

If they try any tricks involving vague claims of "abuse", then get them to give you an Email of deadlock, and then go to Alderney.

If this is a widespread trick with PKR, the more of these that land up with Alderney, the better. They will see this as a trend, and not just one isolated incident.

 

[jolub]

This is related. On Pit Bull's poker site they state that they are licensed in the UK. So I tried filing a complain with UK Gambling commission. The UK Gambling commission said they are not a UK based company.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is related. On Pit Bull's poker site they state that they are licensed in the UK. So I tried filing a complain with UK Gambling commission. The UK Gambling commission said they are not a UK based company.

Are Pit Bull related to PKR?

I would expect the UK Gambling Commission to know who they have licenced or not, and any site that claims to hold a UK licence but does not is breaking the law (athough if they are not in the EU, there is little that can be done about it).

In general, any site making false claims about their licencing juristiction should be considered as rogue.

 

[topoor]

I seem to be fighting a losing battle with Alderney over the moneybookers link. The first reply from them advised me that they would investigate Gamebookers although they thought it unikely that two seperate issues were related!

Once I pointed out that I was referring to MONEYBOOKERS I got a response containing contact details for the FSA!

I have now written back and expressed my disappointment at having to reiterate that this is not an FSA issue but is a complaint about the lies told to Moneybookers from PKR.

Whilst on the phone to moneybookers a customer service rep let it slip that PKR were the complainant but of course Moneybookers will not officially confirm this.

In fact, Moneybookers will now not respond to my requests for information on how to proceed with a subject access request or even how to receive information held about me under the data protection act.

It is shocking that multi million pound, government regulated companies behave in this manner. If it wasnt happening to me I dont think I would believe it!

 

[vinylweatherman]

I seem to be fighting a losing battle with Alderney over the moneybookers link. The first reply from them advised me that they would investigate Gamebookers although they thought it unikely that two seperate issues were related!

Once I pointed out that I was referring to MONEYBOOKERS I got a response containing contact details for the FSA!

I have now written back and expressed my disappointment at having to reiterate that this is not an FSA issue but is a complaint about the lies told to Moneybookers from PKR.

Whilst on the phone to moneybookers a customer service rep let it slip that PKR were the complainant but of course Moneybookers will not officially confirm this.

In fact, Moneybookers will now not respond to my requests for information on how to proceed with a subject access request or even how to receive information held about me under the data protection act.

It is shocking that multi million pound, government regulated companies behave in this manner. If it wasnt happening to me I dont think I would believe it!

Alderney is correct, they do NOT regulate Moneybookers, this is indeed an FSA matter, and if Moneybookers do not allow you access to your data under the data protection act (or obstruct your ability to request it), then this is a matter for the Information Commissioner's office.

Since Moneybookers let slip it was PKR that caused your account to be closed, you could now make a Libel claim through the courts for damages (loss of reputation and character with Moneybookers). PKR clearly have something other than mere "bonus abuse" on you, and might explain their evasive responses. I believe that it is 99% the case they have identified you as a fraudster (false ID, moneylaundering etc) and have convinced Moneybookers of this, hence they have closed your account. They have done this BEFORE Alderney have completed their investigation, and you need the results of this before you can be certain of what to do next.

If Alderney rule in your favour, PKR could be in BIG trouble, as you then have an official ruling that PKR have made a false accusation, and further, have passed this to a third party as fact before the appeals and complaints procedures have run their course.

While this is a matter of a confiscated bonus, it is now clear that your reputation has been defamed, and that you have been lied to as to the proper reasoning behind this action by PKR. Given that you know it was PKR that made the complaint to Moneybookers, you will be able to interpret your personal data from Moneybookers, even if they simply state "complaint of..... from unnamed merchant".

This mess could take some while (and effort) to sort out.



PS.
When you request your data from Moneybookers, don't forget about the possibility that your phonecalls were recorded - this would place on record the fact it was PKR that made the complaint.

 

[topoor]

I dont think the FSA is the right avenue for anything other than the non disclosure of my information. My issue is with PKR for making false accusations and the only route to recompense I have in the first instance is through Alderney. Unfortunately Moneybookers like any bank has the right to choose who they do business with. My only hope of getting my account reopened is that Alderney can provide some details of communications between PKR and Moneybookers and then I can prove to Moneybookers that whatever PKR have said is rubbish.

PKR cant have anything on me. If they did I doubt they would have returned my deposit + winnings. I also think they would have reported me to the police had my documents been fake. I genuinely dont think they have identified me as a fraudster but that it is pure spite on their part.

Perhaps they felt they had to make accusations of this sort to justify their bonus removal to Alderney?

PKRs actions are Alderneys responsibility. Once I gain some evidence of PKR's behavior legal action will follow.

 

[topoor]

The deputy head of complaints at Moneybookers has emailed me requesting dates and times for my availability to have a telephone conversation with the head of complaints at Moneybookers!

I am considering arranging this but wonder if I should stick to written communications.

 

[Lister]

The deputy head of complaints at Moneybookers has emailed me requesting dates and times for my availability to have a telephone conversation with the head of complaints at Moneybookers!

I am considering arranging this but wonder if I should stick to written communications.

Topoor - I'm in a similar situation to yourself regarding all this buisness with PKR, not the Moneybookers issue however - i'm completely offended that Moneybookers would react this way and having looked into opening a account with them recently, i now certainly won't be.
If i were you i would politely inform them that you wish to conduct all communication via email. Be honest about it and tell them that you wish to do that so that you have everything in writing. This way if you do end up going to the FSA you have a complete record of every communication with them.

Lister.

 

[topoor]

Lister, have you contacted Alderney?

 

[Lister]

Lister, have you contacted Alderney?

I haven't contacted Alderney yet as i've only just sent of my id after they "permanently closed" my account and refused my first withdrawl. When they fail to make the payment - or more likely - pay less than they are due by the deadline i set i will be contacting Alderney, using the email address you listed.

Lister.

 

[vinylweatherman]

The deputy head of complaints at Moneybookers has emailed me requesting dates and times for my availability to have a telephone conversation with the head of complaints at Moneybookers!

I am considering arranging this but wonder if I should stick to written communications.

You should record the conversation

You should also tell them that you are recording the conversation, as this makes YOU fully compliant with the data protection act. They may then see that you are serious about wanting it all "on the record", and may agree to conduct this by Email.

Although any bank can decide who they want as a customer, they are NOT allowed to act unfairly. This happened over the recent bank charges issue, where customers were reclaiming "unfair" bank charges. Some banks responded by closing customers' accounts "out of spite" for taking the reclaim action. The Financial Ombudsman received several complaints, and rules that the banks CANNOT use this tactic to bully it's customers into not exercising their rights to complain. It seems Moneybookers have more or less done the same thing, you exercised your right to complain about the actions of PKR to Alderney, and they responded by passing their allegations on to Moneybookers, causing them to close your account. In this case, you can complain that Moneybookers have acted on false information they hold about you which they received from PKR. Under the data protection act, you have the right to have false information corrected. Alderney ruling that you have done nothing wrong will prove that this information is false. Even if you are found to be guilty of "bonus abuse" by Alderney, this still does not excuse PKR for making the complaint to Moneybookers. I also doubt Moneybookers would close an account because one of their merchants said a player simply "abused a bonus".

PKR are also guilty of "bait & switch", since they sent you a personal invite for this disputed bonus, it is not one you somehow found a code for while you were not on the list of recipients.

The communication from Moneybookers shows they are rattled by this affair, as previously they were ignoring you. They clearly want to stop this from going up to the Financial Ombudsman if they can help it - perhaps they now know the facts of the case are currently being investigated by Alderney, and the risk for Moneybookers is that Alderney might rule in your favour.
If you accept Moneybooker's invitation, but are not satisfied, you can still go to the Financial Ombudsman, or make a complaint to the FSA or the Information Commissioner about how these entities have handled your personal data.

 

[topoor]

Excellent post Vinylweatherman. Prior to reading it I had emailed Moneybookers and asked them to expand upon their reasons for the telephone discussion and I informed them of my wish to have documenated evidence of all communications. If/when they come back to me I will ask about recording the call.

Are you aware that in the terms and conditions for Moneybookers it still states that they can close accounts for any or no reason?

 

[topoor]

When they fail to make the payment - or more likely - pay less than they are due by the deadline i set i will be contacting Alderney, using the email address you listed.

Lister.

I posted an incorrect one earlier in the thread so for clarity the best email address for them is info@agcc.gg.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Excellent post Vinylweatherman. Prior to reading it I had emailed Moneybookers and asked them to expand upon their reasons for the telephone discussion and I informed them of my wish to have documenated evidence of all communications. If/when they come back to me I will ask about recording the call.

Are you aware that in the terms and conditions for Moneybookers it still states that they can close accounts for any or no reason?

This term is often seen, but has no real standing. It can be challenged as being "unfair" in a consumer contract, as it restricts your right to participate in a LEGAL activity. If Moneybookers were offshore, they could get away with almost anything, but they are not, so have to obey the rules.

The Financial Ombusdman cannot FORCE Moneybookers to take you back, but they can award compensation, and the ruling would then be a matter of record, and would be a "black mark" against Moneybookers. The best bet would be to look at the alternatives. More are springing up all the time, and the other main player, Neteller, is having to share with a couple of others.
There is also the option of UKASH for UK and EU players, although it can be hard to find a shop that understands how to do it with their Paypoint terminal. There is a downside, withdrawal by cheque only, but there is no need to disclose your bank details to the casino, just your ID documents as per usual. If you are not worried about casinos mishandling your details, there is also the option of using a VISA debit card, and in many cases, withdrawals can be sent back through the card and straight back into your bank. If playing in UK Pounds, there should be no fees either way.

 

[blizeH]

They didn't even humour me with a reply! Oh well.

 

[topoor]

BlizeH you have to report this to Alderney. You will be the fourth person to have this treatment. They cant be allowed to get away with it!

 

[topoor]

Moneybookers emailed me this morning. I have absolutely no clue what this is all about:

I have discussed the issue again with our Security Department so that they can review the issue once again and so that I am able to provide you with the most detailed and updated information. This is the information I can provide you with in view of coplying with all legal requirements and policies under which our company works.

You can accept this message as a final confirmation that your account at Moneybookers is now closed. Upon registration of your account with Moneybookers you agreed to our Terms and Conditions. Please visit section 7.5 and 11 of our Terms and Conditions for more information:

Moneybookers have the right to recover from you any costs or losses incurred as a direct or indirect result of this breach of our terms and conditions up to the value of 150 Euros.

12.1.....................Moneybookers may at its sole discretion assert reasonable handling expenses the Company incurs by a Customers' misuse of the Service and/or breach of these Terms of Use.

Any balance that remained in your account has been made immediately available for withdraw to you.

We are committed to resolving complaints whenever possible through our complaints procedures.
If a matter cannot be resolved satisfactorily or in case you are not satisfied with this information, you may be able to refer your complaint to the Financial Ombudsman Service. This would depend on the nature of the complaint and whether within the rules of the Service the person making the complaint is "eligible" to refer the matter to the Ombudsman.

The Ombudsman Service exists to provide independent adjudication and investigation will be undertaken prior to making a decision about outstanding disputes. A leaflet explaining the Financial Ombudsman Service is available on request, it has been also submitted to you in one of our previous messages. Alternatively the Ombudsman can be contacted direct at the following address:

Financial Ombudsman Service
PO Box 4
South Quay Plaza
183 Marsh Wall
London
E14 9SR
Telephone: 0845 080 1800
E-mail address:enquiries@financial-ombudsman.org.uk
For further information visit the Financial Ombudsman Service website at:
www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk

Thank you for your cooperation and please excuse us for any inconvenience caused.

We hope you find this infromation useful.

Best Regards,

Kamelia,

moneybookers.com Team


All I can summise from this is that they are saying I have breached their terms and conditions and they are making threats that they could recover damages. I would imagine that they would have to tell me what the breach was before they could even consider recovery action!

Still nothing further from Aldereny on either issue.

 

[Nifty29]

Here are the relevant sections FYI:

7. Receiving Payments

7.5. It is strictly forbidden to receive payments as consideration for the delivery of:


tobacco products,
prescription drugs,
drugs and drug paraphernalia,
firearms and ammunition,
weapons and knives,
satellite and cable TV descramblers,
porn and hardcore content or services,
government IDs and licences,
unlicenced lotteries,
stored value cards or pre-paid debit cards, if they are not associated with a single vendor and don’t have a dedicated use,
illegal multi-level marketing and pyramid selling services or ponzi schemes, matrix programs, other “get rich quick” schemes or High-Yield Investment Programs (HYIP) as well as
illegal downloads or any other goods and services infringing intellectual property rights of a third party.
Furthermore, it is strictly forbidden for citizens or residents of certain countries such as but not limited to the United States of America, Turkey, China, Malaysia or Israel to receive payments from websites offering gambling services such as sports betting, casino games and pokers games. Moneybookers reserves the right in its own discretion to amend the list of countries where it is prohibited to receive payments from gambling activities as described above.

Additionally Moneybookers cannot condone the trade of items or support of organisations that promote hate, violence, or racial intolerance. Therefore, Moneybookers will judiciously disallow organisations that promote or glorify hatred, violence, or racial intolerance from using Moneybookers to receive payments. Furthermore, such organisations may not be listed on any website of Moneybookers customers, nor may any of Moneybookers customers' websites advertise or support such organisations.

11. Termination
Customer may close down his/her account at any time by giving notice to Company’s customer service department. The Company at its sole discretion, reserves the right to close an account of any Customer at any time for any or no reason upon 1 week notice to the Customer and payment of any unrestricted funds held in custody. Moneybookers has the right to immediately close down a Customer account by giving notice if there are valid grounds. Valid grounds are assumed under, but not limited to the following circumstances:

a violation of any applicable law or regulation,
breach of any of these Terms of Use,
if there are reasons to believe that the account has been used in connection with unauthorised or unusual credit/debit card or bank account use, including without limitation, notice of same by Customer’s bank or credit/debit card issuer,
in case of abuse of the reversal or charge back process provided by Customer’s bank or credit/debit card company,
receipt of potentially fraudulent funds,
to comply with money laundering or other investigations conducted by government authorities, agencies or commissions,
return of a payment for insufficient funds in the bank account.

Thought I would save everyone a trip to the MB site

 

[topoor]

Yes, I forgot to mention that in between trips to the Post Office for my pension I stop off at the local Al Queda stronghold and arrange to pay for nuclear weapons and armour piercing bullets with the 1100 I have in my moneybookers account. Thats not to mention the regular payments to the National Front for the hate filled propaganda material.

What on earth is going on?