Issue with Kwiff

[deletedaccount20240124]

Hi,

I'd be grateful for any advice.

I joined Kwiff a couple of months ago. All seemed OK. Deposits OK. WIthdrawals OK.

I then suddenly faced problems on 24 December 2023. I made 3 withdrawals. First one was processed fine. The next 2 were 'pending'. On 25 Dec, I see an emaill asking for my work details, etc. It also asked me to upload ID, etc. Interestingly, the 2 pending withdrawals would mean that I am up against Kwiff.

Was just trying out Kwiff after hearing about their 'kwiffed' odds. Sounds too good to be true. For example, on an accumulator once, I had 'kwiffed' odds that were 9 times the original.

It's not much. If you want figures, I am down on Kwiff by £100 and the withdrawals are for £120. Saying that, this is the first time I've been asked for the above. Never had any issues elsewhere.

Had suspicions and I did a google search. Came across a negative thread here on Casino Meister. Mine's a sportsbook issue though.

Should I just chalk this down to a lesson learned?

Full Casinomeister review of Kwiff Casino here

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Here's the update. I received this email (below dashed line) just now.

Background story.

I registered for a Kwiff account around October 2023. Made deposits and withdrawals. All were fine. Not Casino, but Sportsbook. I only use Kwiff for sports, as I was drawn by their 'kwiff' thingy.

On 24 December 2023, I made 3 withdrawals. The first one was processed OK. I had a bit of luck with my sports wagers. 2 further withdrawals a couple of hours later. These were 'pending'. They asked for info/docs. I provided these. They rejected. I then asked them to explicitly specify the docs they want me to provide. I then get response below.

I replied. Told them to make the refund. Added that this does not revoke my right to seek further redress.

They have not told me why there is an issue now, after 2 months of no issues. They did not say why the first withdrawal on 24 Dec was OK, but not the next two. They are not saying what exact documents they want.

But you know what? It's good that this happened now and not down the line. This is the first time I am getting asked for documents from an operator. I closed the Kwiff account.

Anyhoo, thought I'd share this.



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Hi

Thank you for getting back to us.

Kindly note that you are under no obligation to provide the required documents, however, your account will be permanently closed, the withdrawal will be rejected and the deposit from which the withdrawal was generated only will be refunded which is a £20.00 deposit.

Therefore, kindly let us know how you would like us to proceed.

Kind regards,
The kwiff Team

 

[nfehily]

Hi,

I'd be grateful for any advice.

I joined Kwiff a couple of months ago. All seemed OK. Deposits OK. WIthdrawals OK.

I then suddenly faced problems on 24 December 2023. I made 3 withdrawals. First one was processed fine. The next 2 were 'pending'. On 25 Dec, I see an emaill asking for my work details, etc. It also asked me to upload ID, etc. Interestingly, the 2 pending withdrawals would mean that I am up against Kwiff.

Was just trying out Kwiff after hearing about their 'kwiffed' odds. Sounds too good to be true. For example, on an accumulator once, I had 'kwiffed' odds that were 9 times the original.

It's not much. If you want figures, I am down on Kwiff by £100 and the withdrawals are for £120. Saying that, this is the first time I've been asked for the above. Never had any issues elsewhere.

Had suspicions and I did a google search. Came across a negative thread here on Casino Meister. Mine's a sportsbook issue though.

Should I just chalk this down to a lesson learned?

Just close the account mate. You'll be glad you did, trust me.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Hi Nfehily,

Thanks. Yes, I promptly closed my account.

They eventually responded, citing Section C.2.1. of their General Terms and Conditions (GT&C):

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I have just sent an email to their CEO. I will be seeking legal redress. Will stop writing on here on until conclusion.

Thanks again.

 

[jasonuk]

Oh dear, this is getting to be a bit of a regularity isn't it...

If this was a UKGC-mandated CDD check (for larger amounts of deposits and withdrawals), then I would highlight that the maximum funds returned for refusing a CDD request would be the balance at the time of the CDD trigger plus any subsequent deposits. Annoyingly, operators can - and sometimes will - exploit that to strongarm people into compliance for a larger withdrawal where the winnings occur after the CDD request has been made.

However, this appears to be for smaller amounts and thus they are quoting their own terms, and C.2.1 explicitly states:

suspend or close your Kwiff Account and/or forfeit and/or confiscate any winnings in a Kwiff Account and/or refuse to honour any winnings, pending the outcome of any investigation by Kwiff where Kwiff reasonably believes that, directly or indirectly:
(a) any of the Kwiff Rules have been breached;
(c) you are found to have provided false/misleading or otherwise inadequate information and/or documentation regarding your identity and any other account details as requested by Kwiff;

So if you refuse their documentation requests (which could be reasonable, or could be ridiculous - we've heard stories of both) then they can use that clause to void any winnings and return deposits. It does seem unreasonable that they aren't specifying which documents are required...

They are recently accredited here at CM so the Player ArBitration (PAB) service is an option - although being the holidays expect initial progress to be on the slow side. It's completely free to you, but be aware this is a step prior to other dispute resolution like ADR (so you can PAB before ADR, but not PAB during/after ADR).

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Thought I'd clarify.

At no point did I refuse docs. In fact, I went over and beyond and even sent in my debit card. They rejected everything. I raised a formal complaint and asked them specify what docs were actually needed. They replied and said that they were going to close my account (I had already closed it by then).

Given how they handle customer data (as per Steveyboy's thread), I cancelled my debit card. Am now thinking that a new card is not enough. Might have to close bank account. Account details were on debit card.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Hi Casino Meister,

Please cancel the PAB I created. I am going to go with civil proceedings.

I am sorry for any inconvenience.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

How much is the issue here if you are going with civil proceedings? It must be significant as the PAB team here are used to dealing with large amounts.

 

[steveyboy]

Hi Casino Meister,

Please cancel the PAB I created. I am going to go with civil proceedings.

I am sorry for any inconvenience.

thats a bit drastic pab is free and it works. if you lose which i hope you dont it will cost you. let us know how you get on and good luck.

 

[The Viking]

How much is the issue here if you are going with civil proceedings? It must be significant as the PAB team here are used to dealing with large amounts.

Well he says in the first post the withdrawal is for 120 bux going the court way for that hmm

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Well he says in the first post the withdrawal is for 120 bux going the court way for that hmm

Will cost you more in associated costs doing it that way than you'd ever get back.

 

[jasonuk]

As others have mentioned I would slow down and take a moment.

Civil proceedings aren't cheap - not only could the costs easily exceed the amount mentioned, but there's a chance you'd lose because of the terms and conditions. Additionally, if you haven't exhausted the existing proceedings (internal escalation, ADR) that can weigh against you.

If PAB is still an option (which will depend on what you've already said and done), I'd take it - otherwise focus on using the existing processes first as the cost is borne by the operator and not the player.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Their complaints process:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Escalated. Still no response to confirm escalation. It's all good. I am as patient as Job.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Happy Sunday!

I have some interesting updates.

1. Kwiff Help replied. As requested, I sent again the same EDF utility bill. This time, when I downloaded the file, instead of calling it EDF. pdf, I kept it as it is. I also included a screenshot of the login page. Apparently, their "system" rejected my documents. Their words.

2. I forgot to mention this. My answers on work and income were also rejected. So, again, I went beyond and attached a payslip. They said that they just needed me to "write down" job title and source of money. Which is what I wrote previously but was rejected! I basically regurgitated the same information. Looks like accepted this time.

3. Still not over. They asked for ID. I sent in ID. As expected, they had issues with it. In essence, they are asking me to send it something that simply does not exist. Note how I have complied 100%. Now, they are asking for something where I simply cannot comply because... what they are asking for simply does not exist!!!

Contrast with this thread.
Kwiff Withdrawal - Casinomeister Forum

Note the difference. They won't even consider ID like driving licence, etc.

They are saying that I need to submit... wait for it... "the proper way". LOL! But what they are asking for simply does not exist. Becasue it does not exist, there is no way for me to provide this.

To be clear: I am not letting this go. Next step is ecogra escalation. Done. But we all know that it's going to end up in court.

I will cease with the updates the minute I reach the point where I formally submit LBA.

 

[SpinUk]

Oh dear, this is getting to be a bit of a regularity isn't it...

If this was a UKGC-mandated CDD check (for larger amounts of deposits and withdrawals), then I would highlight that the maximum funds returned for refusing a CDD request would be the balance at the time of the CDD trigger plus any subsequent deposits. Annoyingly, operators can - and sometimes will - exploit that to strongarm people into compliance for a larger withdrawal where the winnings occur after the CDD request has been made.

However, this appears to be for smaller amounts and thus they are quoting their own terms, and C.2.1 explicitly states:


So if you refuse their documentation requests (which could be reasonable, or could be ridiculous - we've heard stories of both) then they can use that clause to void any winnings and return deposits. It does seem unreasonable that they aren't specifying which documents are required...

They are recently accredited here at CM so the Player ArBitration (PAB) service is an option - although being the holidays expect initial progress to be on the slow side. It's completely free to you, but be aware this is a step prior to other dispute resolution like ADR (so you can PAB before ADR, but not PAB during/after ADR).

I predict the usual here. Player complains - gets traction here - someone quotes the law - magically gets agreed by the Casino. Rinse and repeat. What an industry.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

SpinUK,

I don't get them. They have lost me as a customer. They lost Steveyboy as a customer. Bound to be others. Have you seen the other thread? Steveboy's thread? What an amazing rep!

This is going to end up in court. I just don't see any other way. I've escalated to ecogra (ADR). Made 2 reports actually, since there are now 2 different reference numbers by Kwiff. However, this is bound to end up in court.

Drafting LBA whilst waiting for ecogra. Rather excellent one, if I may say so myself. Productive weekend!

Have a good week ahead, everyone!

 

[bamberfishcake]

I would say these two have kwiff issues also



sorry/not sorry - couldn't resist

 

[jasonuk]

I would say these two have kwiff issues also

View attachment 192580

sorry/not sorry - couldn't resist

Maybe they're in shock at their odds - looking ahead to Saturday, Brentford (vs Notts Forest):
* Kwiff, 1.82 pre-boost (117% book)
* Other Books, 1.91-2.00 (one at 102%, majority at 105-108%)
* Exchanges, 2.06-2.08 (100.5% before commission)

So you'd need quite a lot of boosting action to overcome that - as people mention, they get a few early on... then either get nothing, or start being accused on public sites of being a bonus abuser

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Hi Jason,

Just waiting on ecogra now.

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Oh, and another thing.

They have enough documents of mine now to commit identity fraud. Address, ID, bank card, payslip, etc. They have more than enough to commit identity fraud.

Given just how happy they are to reveal customer information - see SteveyBoy's thread and also Trust Pilot - one can only worry.

I say this again. No one has ever asked me for docs. This includes FCA regulated spreads.

 

[johnnymcc1966]

Why dont you just do a PAB here? It will be more useful than just moaning about it.

 

[maxd]

Actually, he has, we're still catching up after the holidays.

That said, if he continues posting here on the forums about it that'll kill the PAB. He's been advised to read and comply with the Player Arbitration Policies and Procedures .

OK, correction: he HAD filed a PAB, then cancelled it, now wants to delete his Casinomeister account.

@camaug1877 , please confirm that you want your Casinomeister account closed, we'd be happy to help with that.

- Max

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Johnny,

I had a PAB. Closed it. Thought best to just go with Internal Kwiff process and then ADR.

Will wait till I hear from ecogra. Am going to get that Citizen's Card. Lol.

It's plain silly. Kwiff will have to pay out at some point. But... they lost a customer... permanently!

 

[deletedaccount20240124]

Thanks Max. Please close.

Am more sportsbook. Not really a casino player.