How many people here truly believe slots to be random?

[MiltonW]

Why would they need to do that?

Games are mathematically balanced to hit the TRTP... We don't need to put in lines of code like that because maths dictates that over time the game will ALWAYS hit the TRTP.

There are loads of rigged Roulette tables. No need for that either.
If there's a way to make more money, people will go for it.
You can explain basic probability theory till you're blue in the face, but if it's rigged, it's rigged.

 

[trancemonkey]

Well that was over a period of a few months and a lot of sessions of course.
This was basicly my final balance on that slot when I decided to give up on it.
I do not give up quickly on a slot but Cleo Plus beat me hands down.
What a vile piece of work from IGT that was, sorry to say that and no disrespect towards you.

I have seen massive wins on it from others so it can pay, never did for me tho. :-(

Hey no problem... Wasn't my game anyway I don't even like some of the games I've made myself!

 

[trancemonkey]

Please read my post again.
I said they are random, but not "truly random" by my definition of that term.
You can not deny that.

Anyone who's played Golden Goddess for example, could not fail to notice how you don't see ANY Roses on the middle 3 reels for ages, then suddenly they are everywhere! Same with the other stacked characters too.

KK

Correct... But that's because at the start of the game it must choose what stacked symbols to show. And as long as that chance doesn't change every spin then I'm afraid it is still random... Truly random. Your definition of course might be different to mine...

 

[trancemonkey]

There are loads of rigged Roulette tables. No need for that either.
If there's a way to make more money, people will go for it.
You can explain basic probability theory till you're blue in the face, but if it's rigged, it's rigged.

Not from any reputable operator there isn't... But I agree there are sure to be some unscrupulous ones..

 

[petro]

I believe slots are random unless they are rigged.
Some people say that slots cannot be random because they are set to payback a particular percentage.
Coin flips are also random and after a certain amount of flips the amount of heads will be 50% and that's still considered as random.

 

[goatwack]

Slots are random, up to the point, err, they're not. I take it the 'pool' of available numbers/symbols shrinks the longer you play, thereby shoehorning the game to pay a set percentage.

Probably why those top symbols and scatters mysteriously vanish after a while. So short-term random, sure. Long- term, not as much.

So as these games are designed to fit into a maths model, they cannot be truly unpredictable.

There is no 'half-random', so therefore slots are not random!

 

[Jasminebed]

Slots are random, up to the point, err, they're not. I take it the 'pool' of available numbers/symbols shrinks the longer you play, thereby shoehorning the game to pay a set percentage.

Probably why those top symbols and scatters mysteriously vanish after a while. So short-term random, sure. Long- term, not as much.

So as these games are designed to fit into a maths model, they cannot be truly unpredicatable.

There is no 'half-random', so therefore slots are not random!

In licenced slots, the balls are put back into the bag after every spin, not like a bingo session where once a ball is pulled it's not returned until the next game.

If you take the coin flip example, you are unlikely to get head/tails/head/tails/head/tails alternating for a long period of time, but you will get an average of 50%. The more flips, the closer you will get to the TRTP of 50% on a coin flip.

On only one flip, you can't achieve 50%... you will either get 0% or 100%.

 

[goatwack]

In licenced slots, the balls are put back into the bag after every spin, not like a bingo session where once a ball is pulled it's not returned until the next game.

If you take the coin flip example, you are unlikely to get head/tails/head/tails/head/tails alternating for a long period of time, but you will get an average of 50%. The more flips, the closer you will get to the TRTP of 50% on a coin flip.

On only one flip, you can't achieve 50%... you will either get 0% or 100%.

That's true, but you're talking about the perfect maths model, which slots don't have. Quoting Trancemonkey:

"Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3."

Slots are not programmed to give the player a proportionately equal random chance, like picking a 'ball' out twelve marked 1 - 12.

I therefore also believe this model is at work, but that the top symbols are replaced with lower-paying ones over prolonged play. So whilst still random and the pool-size still the same, you don't know if half of the balls are '3' and the other half '6'

 

[Jasminebed]

That's true, but you're talking about the perfect maths model, which slots don't have. Quoting Trancemonkey:

"Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3."

Slots are not programmed to give the player a proportionately equal random chance, like picking a 'ball' out twelve marked 1 - 12.

I therefore also believe this model is at work, but that the top symbols are replaced with lower-paying ones over prolonged play. So whilst still random and the pool-size still the same, you don't know if half of the balls are '3' and the other half '6'

I think what's closer to how they work is all 5 million balls have an equal chance of being drawn. But not all 5 million balls have an equal value (payout). 6 out of ten of them pay zero. 3/10 of them pay 2x your bet or less, and the remaining 10% has the one in five million top payout (maybe even more than one if the top payout is not huge), and the remainder are the ones that pay more than twice your bet back. Now that's just a rough example.

So while ball 6 & 1,089,254 are both losers, they may show a different losing spin.

 

[johnami]

Random (NOT)

Firstly please discount social gaming slots, as these are quite often not random... mainly because they don't need to be....

Put simply, slots ARE random and I can all but guarantee this. But the easy mistake it to confuse the random selection of an outcome with a random outcome.

Let me explain with a simple example.

I have a bag with 10 balls in it. All the balls are numbered 1 to 10. I blindfold you and get you to select a ball. There is an equal chance of you pulling a 3 out of the bag. And because you were blindfold and couldn't have known what ball you were picking out, the outcome is random. Right?

Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3.

This is exactly how slots work... not every prize is distributed evenly... it can't be. But the outcome is still randomly determined. Using the ball example, after every spin of the slot, all the balls are put back in the bag and the next game, another random draw happens to get the result.

Does that make sense? Please feel free to ask any other questions this throws up if you still aren't sure or don't believe they are random and feel free to add further explanation as to why you feel they are not random if this doesn't dispel that myth.

Ok, I dont play slots. I dont play casino at all. I am here for business reasons. For me equal chance is INCLUDED in the "randomness" definition. And of course... in the first 100 spins, slots seem totally random. But that randomness gets transformed to RTP, while you approach the 10000000 spins.

 

[trancemonkey]

Slots are random, up to the point, err, they're not. I take it the 'pool' of available numbers/symbols shrinks the longer you play, thereby shoehorning the game to pay a set percentage.

Probably why those top symbols and scatters mysteriously vanish after a while. So short-term random, sure. Long- term, not as much.

So as these games are designed to fit into a maths model, they cannot be truly unpredicatable.

There is no 'half-random', so therefore slots are not random!

As I've explained, legally the pool of available numbers has to be the same every time you press the start button. This isn't a scratchcard system where there are a predetermined number of outcomes and once one has gone it can't happen again...

And of course you can have a random maths model... Roulette has a very simple maths model but it's still random. Baccarat has a maths model - it's still random. The design of the reel bands (in its simplest form) is the maths model but the outcome is still randomly determined as I've demonstrated with the bag analogy.

 

[Jono777]

Slots are not Random and I will never be convinced otherwise, been playing way too long and seen so many different examples of "none randomness" (Nope I'm not going into it)

"Random" however can be defined and interpreted in so many different ways.

Ask me if I think slots are fair, then I would answer "yes" (but only when I'm winning )

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, I dont play slots. I dont play casino at all. I am here for business reasons. For me equal chance is INCLUDED in the "randomness" definition. And of course... in the first 100 spins, slots seem totally random. But that randomness gets transformed to RTP, while you approach the 10000000 spins.

Why is it? Something doesn't have to have an equal chance for it to be randomly determined, as I've explained.

 

[trancemonkey]

Slots are not Random and I will never be convinced otherwise, been playing way too long and seen so many different examples of "none randomness" (Nope I'm not going into it)

"Random" however can be defined and interpreted in so many different ways.

Ask me if I think slots are fair, then I would answer "yes" (but only when I'm winning )

So how would you like it if I told you that the job you do every day was a lie? That's basically what you're saying... You don't believe they are random even though I spend every day working on the maths of these games knowing they are random.

And if you aren't willing to discuss where games have not been random then your argument doesn't really have any credence to it I'm afraid....

 

[trancemonkey]

That's true, but you're talking about the perfect maths model, which slots don't have. Quoting Trancemonkey:

"Now I give you a bag with 12 balls in it. Ten of the balls are numbered 1 to 10, but there are an extra two balls both with the number 3 on then. You're still blindfolded, so your pick is still random, but now you have a higher chance of picked the number 3."

Slots are not programmed to give the player a proportionately equal random chance, like picking a 'ball' out twelve marked 1 - 12.

I therefore also believe this model is at work, but that the top symbols are replaced with lower-paying ones over prolonged play. So whilst still random and the pool-size still the same, you don't know if half of the balls are '3' and the other half '6'

We don't replace anything over time...

 

[lockinlove]

Slots are random enough for me aside from yggdrasil. Im still trucking along towards 1 million spins on VGB

I get what KK is saying because yggdrasil does the same. You will see a 3rd scatter coming and it just vanishes in the middle of a spin on the screen.

 

[johnami]

Why is it? Something doesn't have to have an equal chance for it to be randomly determined, as I've explained.

Ok, This will turn philosophical pretty quick! I get the point. And of course, roulette has odds , sports have odds and one could say that slots' RTP is another form of odds.
So... odds, or weighted chances for me is a term contradicting Randomness. Maybe I should have just sticked to my second sentence and it would pass my point even better.
You re here for 100 spins? Randomness will join you. 10000000? (I think this is the number that law demands for RTP proof) Then, You know the result already. The only randomness there
lies on decimal points (96.6%-97% for example)

 

[trancemonkey]

Ok, This will turn philosophical pretty quick! I get the point. And of course, roulette has odds , sports have odds and one could say that slots' RTP is another form of odds.
So... odds, or weighted chances for me is a term contradicting Randomness. Maybe I should have just sticked to my second sentence and it would pass my point even better.
You re here for 100 spins? Randomness will join you. 10000000? (I think this is the number that law demands for RTP proof) Then, You know the result already. The only randomness there
lies on decimal points (96.6%-97% for example)

Don't confuse randomly determined with random outcome. The two are very different things...

 

[MiltonW]

You don't believe they are random even though I spend every day working on the maths of these games knowing they are random.

All software can be hacked. Microsoft doesn't hack Windows up front
If NetEnt is running from Curacao, I'm not playing...

 

[trancemonkey]

Slots are random enough for me aside from yggdrasil. Im still trucking along towards 1 million spins on VGB

I get what KK is saying because yggdrasil does the same. You will see a 3rd scatter coming and it just vanishes in the middle of a spin on the screen.

OK so that's easy to explain if you're talking about that I think you're talking about...

Imagine you have a game with 1 reel to make it simple... This reel has 2000 positions.

When you press start the reel starts to spin, it doesn't know where it is going to land until the server responds, so the reels spins through. This reel might have started at position 40 and spins through 41, 42,43 etc...

There may be a lot of scatters in the first 500 positions on the reel but not on the last 500. Once the game receives the result of the spin it has to jump to a position in the reel band which allows it to stop in the right place after the right amount of time has passed...

If the section of the reel where the reel will stop has no scatters on it or very few then it would appear that they disappear... A great example of this is the way the reels change when you get the Wild Storm feature on TS2

 

[goatwack]

As I've explained, legally the pool of available numbers has to be the same every time you press the start button. This isn't a scratchcard system where there are a predetermined number of outcomes and once one has gone it can't happen again...

And of course you can have a random maths model... Roulette has a very simple maths model but it's still random. Baccarat has a maths model - it's still random. The design of the reel bands (in its simplest form) is the maths model but the outcome is still randomly determined as I've demonstrated with the bag analogy.

Respectfully, I disagree. You may or may not claim to know the workings of slot play yet speaking of credentials, I don't know you from Adam.

I cannot believe your reasoning any more than if Netent answered with official statements regarding how fair their games are, despite evidence to the contrary.

So whilst I believe what you perceive to be true, I cannot fathom the continuous downward gameplay spikes that defy all notions of fair play and randomness every single time. For something so random I'd like to be surprised..... for once!

Alas, we're told it's all in our heads, keep calm & carry on, all the while as the games act in the strangest of ways. I've played them long enough to believe that they're not random, but as I said, it's my opinion from my personal observations, and you're entitled to yours

 

[trancemonkey]

Respectfully, I disagree. You may or may not claim to know the workings of slot play yet speaking of credentials, I don't know you from Adam.

I cannot believe your reasoning any more than if Netent answered with official statements regarding how fair their games are, despite evidence to the contrary.

So whilst I believe what you perceive to be true, I cannot fathom the continuous downward gameplay spikes that defy all notions of fair play and randomness every single time. For something so random I'd like to be surprised..... for once!

Alas, we're told it's all in our heads, keep calm & carry on, all the while as the games act in the strangest of ways. I've played them long enough to believe that they're not random, but as I said, it's my opinion from my personal observations, and you're entitled to yours

Except mine isn't my opinion... Mine is knowledge of doing this for 21 years as a job both in compensated and random games. Unless you're prepared to call me a liar in which case I have no argument as if you think I'm lying there is little more I can say

 

[goatwack]

Except mine isn't my opinion... Mine is knowledge of doing this for 21 years as a job both in compensated and random games. Unless you're prepared to call me a liar in which case I have no argument as if you think I'm lying there is little more I can say

All a bit black & white with you isn't it? I didn't call you a liar, I said I didn't know you

On the forum, it is opinions, and people can choose to believe/ accept them or not.

But by all means, carry on

 

[Jono777]

So how would you like it if I told you that the job you do every day was a lie? That's basically what you're saying... You don't believe they are random even though I spend every day working on the maths of these games knowing they are random.

And if you aren't willing to discuss where games have not been random then your argument doesn't really have any credence to it I'm afraid....

Nope, Personal opinion that 'random' is a very poor choice of words.

I'm not willing to take on an argument / discussion, debate, call it what you will that no matter what I say or how I present my feelings I will not get the point across, nothing personal either, I mean in general.

Forums are so hard in some cases (this been a prime example) of getting a true point across. To discuss something over a pint (before numerous are consumed) would make my point so much easier to understand and some may even somewhat begin to agree with me.

Sadly that day will never arrive, hence my stance on not willing to go in deep on this one

 

[Jono777]

Slots are random enough for me aside from yggdrasil. Im still trucking along towards 1 million spins on VGB

I get what KK is saying because yggdrasil does the same. You will see a 3rd scatter coming and it just vanishes in the middle of a spin on the screen.

A lot do the same - one of our faves included, namely "Immortal Romance"

I am sad enough to know the reel layout either side of the scatters on reels 3-5 and reel 5 is a bugger for showing then disappearing.

Even though we all know it is just eye candy, agreed frustrating as hell