How many people here truly believe slots to be random?

[brianmon]

Secondly... It's purely dependent on the number of spins... Netent casinos are mainly Scandinavian facing so it's obvious they would have the highest proportion of winners...

An excerpt from this article.

xxx//calvinayre.com/2017/02/17/business/netent-enjoys-record-2016-revenue/


NetEnt CEO Per Eriksson called 2016 an exciting year, marked by a few geographical milestones. The company made its foray into Mexico’s online casino market via its deal with Spanish operator Codere, launched in Bulgaria and Portugal’s new regulated markets, while December saw NetEnt’s UK operations become the company’s largest geographical contributor.


And there are still very few UK jackpot winners

 

[trancemonkey]

An excerpt from this article.

xxx//calvinayre.com/2017/02/17/business/netent-enjoys-record-2016-revenue/


NetEnt CEO Per Eriksson called 2016 an exciting year, marked by a few geographical milestones. The company made its foray into Mexico’s online casino market via its deal with Spanish operator Codere, launched in Bulgaria and Portugal’s new regulated markets, while December saw NetEnt’s UK operations become the company’s largest geographical contributor.


And there are still very few UK jackpot winners

Yeah... But I'm talking about people that play the Mega Jackpot games...

 

[brianmon]

Yeah... But I'm talking about people that play the Mega Jackpot games...

one would assume it's a similar proportion for all markets.

 

[deadoralive23]

I don't mean to sound rude but Netent and a few others are trying to fuck us UK players over.
Ever since the new regulations came into effect, numerous popular casinos no longer accept Europeans and in spite they are emptying out our pockets every time we play their shit games.

 

[Chipkin9]

Firstly... Of course it's fair AS LONG AS the players are told the RTP so they can choose to play the game or not. You don't think a machine in Vegas runs at the same TRTP as a Netent online slot...

Secondly... It's purely dependent on the number of spins... Netent casinos are mainly Scandinavian facing so it's obvious they would have the highest proportion of winners...

Thanks man, I appreciate your response. The first reply is fine I guess, but what about the unsuspecting players who think the game is running the same for them as everyone else? I suppose you can place more blame on the Government, Regulatory authority from where they are from more than on the Provider, but still.

I've heard the same response for your second reply. It made no sense then and it makes no sense now

The reply seems to insinuate that most casino's that operate NetEnt are only open to Scandinavian players so most of their player base are Scandinavian so that's why there is an imbalance, I'm sorry but it is a BS reply, no offense, and I'm not here to argue just to raise a few points.

9 out of 10 online Casino's (That offer NetEnt) are open to players from all of Europe. So with Scandinavia's population up against the rest of Europe how on earth can it be said that they "have more spins". Maybe I am misunderstanding something somewhere.

Even on VeraJohn, there is a shit tonne of Japanese players there and the population of Japan is 127 million, and we all know Asians like to gamble hard. Whether or not they can play NetEnt is another matter, but I'm definitely not buying the response

 

[trancemonkey]

Thanks man, I appreciate your response. The first reply is fine I guess, but what about the unsuspecting players who think the game is running the same for them as everyone else? I suppose you can place more blame on the Government, Regulatory authority from where they are from more than on the Provider, but still.

I've heard the same response for your second reply. It made no sense then and it makes no sense now

The reply seems to insinuate that most casino's that operate NetEnt are only open to Scandinavian players so most of their player base are Scandinavian so that's why there is an imbalance, I'm sorry but it is a BS reply, no offense, and I'm not here to argue just to raise a few points.

9 out of 10 online Casino's (That offer NetEnt) are open to players from all of Europe. So with Scandinavia's population up against the rest of Europe how on earth can it be said that they "have more spins". Maybe I am misunderstanding something somewhere.

Even on VeraJohn, there is a shit tonne of Japanese players there and the population of Japan is 127 million, and we all know Asians like to gamble hard. Whether or not they can play NetEnt is another matter, but I'm definitely not buying the response

So my guess is that the MegaJackpots game is a lot more popular in Scandinavia than any other country or area. It's the only thing that can explain it... Unless they have done something wrong with the chances of winning the jackpot when converting the currencies...

Just because a casino offers the game doesn't mean it gets played.. For example the Blueprint style multi-bonus games are far more popular in the UK then Europe even though they are available there.

 

[trancemonkey]

I don't mean to sound rude but Netent and a few others are trying to fuck us UK players over.
Ever since the new regulations came into effect, numerous popular casinos no longer accept Europeans and in spite they are emptying out our pockets every time we play their shit games.

Then just play at the casinos that you trust... Simple

 

[Chipkin9]

So my guess is that the MegaJackpots game is a lot more popular in Scandinavia than any other country or area. It's the only thing that can explain it...

Just because a casino offers the game doesn't mean it gets played.. For example the Blueprint style multi-bonus games are far more popular in the UK then Europe even though they are available there.

I understand what you're saying, but with all things said and populations considered, I would bet my house that NetEnt's Jackpot games are played more by Europeans from other regions than from Scandinavia.

Unless they have done something wrong with the chances of winning the jackpot when converting the currencies...

That wouldn't be an easy mistake to make at all and would have to be deliberate...which would be illegal would it not?

That is if you mean, someone elsewhere betting at £€0.25 which is Krona 2.79. The bet size/value is equivalent, but NetEnt somehow recognizes the bet size is ten times larger, is that what you mean? That would mean because Jackpots are set to trigger with larger bets, they are ten times more likely?

That would be one explanation.

I've thought about this before with Videoslots Races. Maybe they are getting 3 times as many race points because of this.

Where is NetEnts transparency on this?

 

[trancemonkey]

I understand what you're saying, but with all things said and populations considered, I would bet my house that NetEnt's Jackpot games are played more by Europeans from other regions than from Scandinavia.



That wouldn't be an easy mistake to make at all and would have to be deliberate...which would be illegal would it not?

That is if you mean, someone elsewhere betting at £€0.25 which is Krona 2.79. The bet size/value is equivalent, but NetEnt somehow recognizes the bet size is ten times larger, is that what you mean? That would mean because Jackpots are set to trigger with larger bets, they are ten times more likely?

That would be one explanation.

I've thought about this before with Videoslots Races. Maybe they are getting 3 times as many race points because of this.

Where is NetEnts transparency on this?

I very much doubt it's the second... Games with Jackpots that large are subject to a lot more regulatory scrutiny...

It's almost certainly just simply that more Scandinavians play the MegaJackpot games...

Also, remember in some countries if you win the jackpot you don't have the option to not have publicity (Canada is one example... I'm not sure how many other countries are like this) but in the UK you can choose not to have publicity...

 

[brianmon]

I very much doubt it's the second... Games with Jackpots that large are subject to a lot more regulatory scrutiny...

It's almost certainly just simply that more Scandinavians play the MegaJackpot games...

Also, remember in some countries if you win the jackpot you don't have the option to not have publicity (Canada is one example... I'm not sure how many other countries are like this) but in the UK you can choose not to have publicity...

Not having your name published is one thing. But most casinos will advertise a jackpot win, even if they only state the winner's country of origin.

Plus there are the jackpot tracker sites, which I know quite a few CM members follow.

 

[nojoke]

I very much doubt it's the second... Games with Jackpots that large are subject to a lot more regulatory scrutiny...

It's almost certainly just simply that more Scandinavians play the MegaJackpot games...

Also, remember in some countries if you win the jackpot you don't have the option to not have publicity (Canada is one example... I'm not sure how many other countries are like this) but in the UK you can choose not to have publicity...

Surely ALL games should be subject to the SAME scrutiny to make sure that ALL games are fair.

 

[trancemonkey]

Surely ALL games should be subject to the SAME scrutiny to make sure that ALL games are fair.

Of course not... A Jackpot link game (which is what Mega Jackpots is) is subject to far more scrutiny because of the link. Not every game has a linked progressive and therefore not every game has that level of testing.

 

[Chipkin9]

An excerpt from this article.

xxx//calvinayre.com/2017/02/17/business/netent-enjoys-record-2016-revenue/


NetEnt CEO Per Eriksson called 2016 an exciting year, marked by a few geographical milestones. The company made its foray into Mexico’s online casino market via its deal with Spanish operator Codere, launched in Bulgaria and Portugal’s new regulated markets, while December saw NetEnt’s UK operations become the company’s largest geographical contributor.


And there are still very few UK jackpot winners

Funny you post a link from Calvinayre.

I have a link saved in a txt file I have been meaning to post.

Years back I made a very cringey post while drunk about how NetEnt jackpots were triggered by the company giving out a code that could be triggered by inputting said code on the "Players" computer while playing the slot.

Of course I got a lot of flack,

But...h**p://calvinayre.com/2015/10/21/business/sheriff-gamings-slots-only-paid-out-to-family-and-friends/

 

[Kelly Jo]

Random Number Generators are 100% legit. RTP is 100% legit. Period.

The most common mistake I see when people are talking about randomness as it relates to gaming is grouping the RNG and RTP together as though it were one and the same.

RNG is an algorithm. A what? Okay... fine. It's science, bitches! If a casino incorporates this into their games and have been certified by a 3rd party testing lab, you can rest assured that randomness ensues. Technically at least.

RTP is not science. It's just a number. A percentage. It represents the exact amount that a specific game or machine will payout over the LIFETIME of the game or machine. This is not an hourly measurement. It is not a daily/monthly/yearly representation of ANYTHING. It is a lifetime payout percentage. Interestingly enough, this is regulated by either the software provider or the casino. It usually depends on how much or even if the casino is willing to pay the software provider for access to this feature.

Here is where is should start to make sense. The RNG operates within the parameters of the RTP. This is why Blackjack is such an effed up game to play online. The RTP is set to 89% let's say. The RNG is going to randomly generate winning or loosing hands within these parameters. It doesn't give a rat's ass if the card is a face card or not. It doesn't care about number of times a specific card is used. It can't. It's job now is to randomly produce hands to satisfy the RTP. Technically though, it is still functioning properly.

The reason RNGs pass testing is because no RTP parameters are utilized in the testing process. All those times you KNEW? Felt like you were violated? Well you were right. It's these practices that are wrong. The tools that you thought were policing and protecting players are really doing nothing more than pacifying and/or misleading them.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Are you saying that if you play perfect blackjack strategy online then you won't achieve the 99%+ that you would in a real casino ? Because your rtp in blackjack also depends on how you play so they can't have a fixed rtp in that sense . For example if a player hits every time he doesn't have 21 then his rtp will be very low

My understanding of online blackjack and the rng is that it's essentially playing blackjack with 2 - infinite decks and each time a card from the 52 possible cards is chosen . The rtp of blackjack is inherent in the game however so this does not need to be tested as long as the cards are randomly picked
Does online bj with 89% rtp really exist ??

Like roulette all you need is a random number between 0 to 36 and payouts at 35/1 and the rtp will be 97.2% . The only thing that needs to be tested is that the number between 0-36 is picked randomly

 

[Kelly Jo]

Are you saying that if you play perfect blackjack strategy online then you won't achieve the 99%+ that you would in a real casino ? Because your rtp in blackjack also depends on how you play so they can't have a fixed rtp in that sense . For example if a player hits every time he doesn't have 21 then his rtp will be very low

My understanding of online blackjack and the rng is that it's essentially playing blackjack with infinite decks and each time a card from the 52 possible cards is chosen . The rtp of blackjack is inherent in the game however so this does not need to be tested as long as the cards are randomly picked

The players RTP is just that. It doesn't factor into the RTP of the game. You may as well be pulling a handle when you play blackjack online.

 

[SlotGrinder]

The players RTP is just that. It doesn't factor into the RTP of the game. You may as well be pulling a handle when you play blackjack online.

So you think the game has an arbritary rtp that the casino sets and then it doesn't matter what the player does but essentially he will always earn back that rtp longterm ? So it doesn't matter what the player does even if he hits every time or splits 6's or w/e ? I'd be surprised if that's true tbh

 

[Kelly Jo]

So you think the game has an arbritary rtp that the casino sets and then it doesn't matter what the player does but essentially he will always earn back that rtp longterm ? So it doesn't matter what the player does even if he hits every time or splits 6's or w/e ? I'd be surprised if that's true tbh

Yes. I stated that the RTP is regulated/controlled by the software provider and/or casino.
Correct. I am saying it does not matter what the player does.

How's your gameplay, btw? What is your RTP?
What was it last week? The week before that? Last year?

You are saying that your RTP should match your skill level? I would be interested in seeing this.

 

[SlotGrinder]

Yes. I stated that the RTP is regulated/controlled by the software provider and/or casino.
Correct. I am saying it does not matter what the player does.

How's your gameplay, btw? What is your RTP?
What was it last week? The week before that? Last year?

You are saying that your RTP should match your skill level? I would be interested in seeing this.

I hardly ever play blackjack but I know to follow basic strategy which is widely available . I wouldn't call it skill but yes I think if you are informed of optimal strategy you should do better than someone who is not and just plays randomly . The RTP is inherent in the game . If someone plays correctly then the casino only has a 1% or so edge . If they play badly then that edge will rise . If the casino sets the rtp like you say then it's really a sham but I don't think most casinos do operate like that

For example , this is from casumo blackjack rules

" Return to Player

The theoretical return to player for this game (calculated as total win/total bet with optimal strategy) is 99.65% "

 

[Kelly Jo]

I hardly ever play blackjack but I know to follow basic strategy which is widely available . I wouldn't call it skill but yes I think if you are informed of optimal strategy you should do better than someone who is not and just plays randomly . The RTP is inherent in the game . If someone plays correctly then the casino only has a 1% or so edge . If they play badly then that edge will rise . If the casino sets the rtp like you say then it's really a sham but I don't think most casinos do operate like that

For example , this is from casumo blackjack rules

" Return to Player

The theoretical return to player for this game (calculated as total win/total bet with optimal strategy) is 99.65% "

lol...

This has a 3000% RTP.
There is nothing theoretical about it.
That is word porn. A puff of smoke up your pooper.
It is not difficult to manipulate the perceived RTP.

 

[Jono777]

I worked in a B & M casino for a long time, Black Jack being my fave game and the one without sounding big headed I got very good at, even learnt to card count from some of the players (yes, our casino allowed these )

IIRC the house edge was about 4*% - this being reduced to 2*% for players who played "Perfect strategy" and increasing to 6*%+ if you had a table full of drunks (a regular scene most weekend evenings)

*Rough figures to nearest whole number

I refuse to believe this would ever apply to online BJ, there will be (for want of a better word) 'compensators' in place to ensure the slot remained around the original factory set RTP regardless of tactics employed etc.

 

[syrus2]

The players RTP is just that. It doesn't factor into the RTP of the game. You may as well be pulling a handle when you play blackjack online.

+10 to this !!

If the game ( slot ) is programmed to 97% RTP,, the average should come close to winning $3 out of every $100 put into the machine.

And this , can be very frustrating for the player ( sometimes ) !!

 

[dionysus]

+10 to this !!

If the game ( slot ) is programmed to 97% RTP,, the average should come close to winning $3 out of every $100 put into the machine.

And this , can be very frustrating for the player ( sometimes ) !!

Shouldn't that read, close to losing 3 of every hundred, otherwise it would be an rtp of 103%?

 

[videoslotheaven]

Honestly reading allot of these threads on different forums latley and my own experience/losses the last year has made me convinced there is something fishy going on.

This recent threads where people point out the exact things i also experienced on a so called random game, made me decide enough is enough and i closed all my casino accounts. Its really no point in playing anymore as it is next to impossible to win anything. 200 euros is gone in 5 minutes on 1 bets over and over and over. Its so obvious that they changed the games. Maybe the rtp is the same but the payout structure has been modified i am 100% sure.

 

[dionysus]

This recent threads where people point out the exact things i also experienced.

Not to say your post as a whole doesnt have merit as it's subjective and personal, but quite frankly, these threads or posts like it have pretty much come up since the forum's inception.

 

[syrus2]

Shouldn't that read, close to losing 3 of every hundred, otherwise it would be an rtp of 103%?

Good point .

No i do'nt think so , bcuz this happens over an infinite number of spins.
plus the edge over the player ( 3 prct ) which goes in to the casinos pocket .

 

[slotter999]

Honestly reading allot of these threads on different forums latley and my own experience/losses the last year has made me convinced there is something fishy going on.

This recent threads where people point out the exact things i also experienced on a so called random game, made me decide enough is enough and i closed all my casino accounts. Its really no point in playing anymore as it is next to impossible to win anything. 200 euros is gone in 5 minutes on 1 bets over and over and over. Its so obvious that they changed the games. Maybe the rtp is the same but the payout structure has been modified i am 100% sure.

Given your deep suspicions regarding the slots this seems like an entirely sensible and pragmatic response. I am surprised more people with these doubts aren't doing the same.

 

[dionysus]

Good point .

No i do'nt think so , bcuz this happens over an infinite number of spins.
plus the edge over the player ( 3 prct ) which goes in to the casinos pocket .

But your balance does trickle down, and, ultimately given, infinite spins, you lose...you dont gain 3 dollars as you trek the mountain.
As you, there's the 3 percent...to the casino.

 

[syrus2]

But your balance does trickle down, and, ultimately given, infinite spins, you lose...you dont gain 3 dollars as you trek the mountain.
As you, there's the 3 percent...to the casino.

This my point. This aint happening with a rndm depo.

You may start with 200 euro and end up with 6 euro rtp (players RTP) '
whereas the RTP of the slot stick to the 97 prct.

 

[dionysus]

This my point. This aint happening with a rndm depo.

You may start with 200 euro and end up with 6 euro rtp (players RTP) '
whereas the RTP of the slot stick to the 97 prct.

that would make it a 3%
For example, if you make a hundred $1 bets on a machine on which the RTP is 97%, you might expect to get back about $97 in wins (or another way, your 200 euros, wins equalling 194). (this of course, isnt the way a slot will likely play in a session)

 

[syrus2]

that would make it a 3%

it's possible ( theoretical ).


If you would get that money for every 100 euro you deposit , then yes . I would agree .
But , I doubt you would .

I did abit research on google my friend.

this my be useful.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

 

[dionysus]

I think perhaps we are looking at the same problem but viewing it from 2 different sides

 

[syrus2]

I think perhaps we are looking at the same problem but viewing it from 2 different sides

That is bcuz you're smart. and I'm not !!

 

[brianmon]

So my guess is that the MegaJackpots game is a lot more popular in Scandinavia than any other country or area. It's the only thing that can explain it... Unless they have done something wrong with the chances of winning the jackpot when converting the currencies...

Yet another Scandinavian jackpot winner, just today
And as it was from a £20 deposit, one could even assume he was playing at minimum stake too.

Although with him being Norwegian, I assume it was actually a 200 NOK deposit playing at 2.5, rather £20 playing at 0.25, and the figure of £20 is just for advertising to the UK players

 

[Kelly Jo]

RTP is figured using the RTP% of each spin.



Five spins. The first bet for 1 cent and pays $30.01. (3000%)The next two are for 200 dollars and they pay 0.00. (0%, 0%) The next one is for 5 dollars and it pays $5. (100%) The last for 10 dollars and bit pays $35.(350%)



$415.01 bet $70.01 paid out $380.00 casino profit


The casino still maintains a 690% RTP. Because the first spin RTP is 3000% plus the second spin RTP 0.00% plus third spin RTP 0.00% ... etc.

It is not figured the way a player would logically assume. This is HUGE in terms of perceived RTP for both the player and the game. A player sees 100 dollars put into a machine and a 97 dollar balance remaining as a 97% RTP. This is not how RTP works.

 

[syrus2]

RTP is figured using the RTP% of each spin.



Five spins. The first bet for 1 cent and pays $30.01. (3000%)The next two are for 200 dollars and they pay 0.00. (0%, 0%) The next one is for 5 dollars and it pays $5. (100%) The last for 10 dollars and bit pays $35.(350%)



$415.01 bet $70.01 paid out $380.00 casino profit


The casino still maintains a 690% RTP. Because the first spin RTP is 3000% plus the second spin RTP 0.00% plus third spin RTP 0.00% ... etc.

It is not figured the way a player would logically assume. This is HUGE in terms of perceived RTP for both the player and the game. A player sees 100 dollars put into a machine and a 97 dollar balance remaining as a 97% RTP. This is not how RTP works.

+10 !!

Which was the point I was trying to put . (I think dionysus was at the same track as mine).

If all depo's woulda end up in 97 euros cash back from 100 euros.
Then no one would be able to win, in this cruel business !!

 

[trancemonkey]

RTP is figured using the RTP% of each spin.



Five spins. The first bet for 1 cent and pays $30.01. (3000%)The next two are for 200 dollars and they pay 0.00. (0%, 0%) The next one is for 5 dollars and it pays $5. (100%) The last for 10 dollars and bit pays $35.(350%)



$415.01 bet $70.01 paid out $380.00 casino profit


The casino still maintains a 690% RTP. Because the first spin RTP is 3000% plus the second spin RTP 0.00% plus third spin RTP 0.00% ... etc.

It is not figured the way a player would logically assume. This is HUGE in terms of perceived RTP for both the player and the game. A player sees 100 dollars put into a machine and a 97 dollar balance remaining as a 97% RTP. This is not how RTP works.

That simply isn't true... Casino RTP is (as laid down in the UKGC guidelines and common sense) Cash Out / Cash In across the whole game.

It is possible (and suggested) that the RTP is tracked across all Stakes independently so that any faults can easily be spotted as RTP can be massively swayed by big bets... This is what you're suggesting in effect and therefore I understand why you're saying what you're saying but that's not how it works as far as I know...

 

[Kelly Jo]

That simply isn't true... Casino RTP is (as laid down in the UKGC guidelines and common sense) Cash Out / Cash In across the whole game.

[COLOR="#FF000"]It is possible (and suggested) that the RTP is tracked across all Stakes independently[/COLOR] so that any faults can easily be spotted as RTP can be massively swayed by big bets... This is what you're suggesting in effect and therefore I understand why you're saying what you're saying but that's not how it works as far as I know...

[COLOR="#FF000"]I believe that is what I said[/COLOR].

Do you have a link? (To the specific guidelines? And listen... if you have a direct link to common sense, I'd take that, too!

 

[trancemonkey]

[COLOR="#FF000"]I believe that is what I said[/COLOR].

Do you have a link? (To the specific guidelines? And listen... if you have a direct link to common sense, I'd take that, too!

Hey Kelly... My common sense fails me enough so I wish i too had a link to it...

However here is the link to the UKGC site :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hope this helps

 

[Kelly Jo]

Hey Kelly... My common sense fails me enough so I wish i too had a link to it...

However here is the link to the UKGC site :

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Hope this helps

As of 1 September 2016 remote operators are required to monitor the performance of the games they offer. The core focus of this monitoring is to ensure random number generator (RNG) driven products are fair and achieving the designed return to player (RTP). (this is a quote from your link to the UK gaming site)


THIS is hella awesome!

Did I mention I'm from the US? lol.

Back to RTP:
The formula given here states that actual RTP is figured by dividing the wins by turnover. The turnover being the total of all stakes made on the game, this will include reinvested winnings awarded during play. They allow for a few other things like Volatility but generally speaking this is their formula.

As to how that affects my corner of the gaming world? I have major doubts that it does.
I am fairly confident that the formula I described is commonly used in casinos I have access to because I shamelessly
tormented one of my casino reps until they finally broke and explained it to me

But really... do you think it is even remotely possible to get all the information one wants to validate fair play?

 

[trancemonkey]

As of 1 September 2016 remote operators are required to monitor the performance of the games they offer. The core focus of this monitoring is to ensure random number generator (RNG) driven products are fair and achieving the designed return to player (RTP). (this is a quote from your link to the UK gaming site)


THIS is hella awesome!

Did I mention I'm from the US? lol.

Back to RTP:
The formula given here states that actual RTP is figured by dividing the wins by turnover. The turnover being the total of all stakes made on the game, this will include reinvested winnings awarded during play. They allow for a few other things like Volatility but generally speaking this is their formula.

As to how that affects my corner of the gaming world? I have major doubts that it does.
I am fairly confident that the formula I described is commonly used in casinos I have access to because I shamelessly
tormented one of my casino reps until they finally broke and explained it to me

But really... do you think it is even remotely possible to get all the information one wants to validate fair play?

No... Because that would involve the release of IP that no company in their right mind would give away... I.E you would have to expose the maths of the game. That is never going to happen (unless forced through legislation but that's impossible).

So, yes casinos almost certainly monitor RTP by stake and record that but overall RTP is just Cash Out / Cash In.

If players don't trust the system the UKGC has in place then they really shouldn't bother playing at all...

 

[Tropicana50]

This was also one of the reasons I am having my wee slotting break.
Years ago I was nearly sure I would get a feature once every 150 spins (on average), maybe a bit less or more.
Now you easy get swings were it will take you well over 1000 spins to hit a feature.
And a slot can keep that up for thousands of spins.

A slot where this is very very very clear is the 243 line version of GoT, on nearly every online casino I have played this slot it would be more a FS trigger average of once every 400 spins or so.
And as we all know it can leave you with 1x-2x stake in the FS round.
Imagine so many spins to trigger the FS and then getting above result.

On Cleopatra Plus (IGT) fyi trancemonkey, I have spun this slot tens of thousands of times and am down like 5k on it as explained earlier in this thread and I never ever triggered the FS with more than 3 servants!!!! Every time only 3 picks while it can give up to 6 or 7 picks if you get the double/triple servant symbol on the last reel.
That is so bloody damn frustrating and smells like "not so very random" to me.
How can 100+ features always be with the minimum amount of picks???

Some community details for you from GoT 243, not a great deal of spins in the pool right now so far, but hopefully it helps

- T

 

[Kelly Jo]

No... Because that would involve the release of IP that no company in their right mind would give away... I.E you would have to expose the maths of the game. That is never going to happen (unless forced through legislation but that's impossible).

So, yes casinos almost certainly monitor RTP by stake and record that but overall RTP is just Cash Out / Cash In.

If players don't trust the system the UKGC has in place then they really shouldn't bother playing at all...

Their regulations are the closest to common sense a player could hope to get, in my opinion. Far better than some ridiculous certificate linked to a third party testing lab with a date stamp that is eight to ten years old.

 

[Tropicana50]

Their regulations are the closest to common sense a player could hope to get, in my opinion. Far better than some ridiculous certificate linked to a third party testing lab with a date stamp that is eight to ten years old.

I tend to agree with this sentiment. Most gambling licenses have very little meaning in terms of protection for the player. It has become more of a right of passage to trade rather than an entity that should uphold and govern the rules.

- T

 

[prop82]

I would like to truly believe it and the arguments they are random mostly seem to be logic.but it doesnt feel so sometimes. Im not feeling rigged but sometimes it is goibg strange ways when playing a slot.
for example it is a good argument,stated by trancemonkey i think, that it would be very unlikely that noone who works or programs for the companys would have ever talked about it, if there were something wrong.
On the other hand, a few years ago noone knew about VW ( and others ) to fake their emission test for diesel cars. And they definitly did
When i started to play slots 3 years ago i were sure casinos will let you win when you start playing at their site.i were even more sure as at the first 8-10 casinos i had big wins within the first 2-4 deposits.
Then it didnt work anymore at other oc.i starteted to think then,its fixed when you doing your deposit if you win or loose and on what balance it will peak.seems to be nonsense too...
All in all,if i look back at all sessions, every possible way of winning,loosing,win big and loose fast,or win big and going on for while like this happened.
Even if the last year didnt really give anything great, it feels way of random at all.

 

[gambyx7]

Of course they are random....

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Take a look this beautifull screenshot which killed my balance of 650.

Yes, it is my fault for not giving up after 100 spins, but I wanted to experience some significant wins which, randomly, should appear.

FS every 400 spins. Randomly!
Only one FS reached 30x, others below 9!!!

Only one thing here is not random: MG robbery!

Please swear instead of me....

 

[richmcd]

But your stats aren't evidence that the slot isn't random! If anything, it's strong evidence that it IS. No-one in their right mind would RIG a slot to give such huge dead patches, when they could just slowly chip away at your balance...

Like a lot of MG slots, I think Dragonz can be brutal, because the FS can pay so much. My third ever FS was the sticky wilds one (green dragon?) that's like the Jurassic Park one. It gave me 5 wilds on the first three reels in the first few spins and then fourth reel shortly after, so the final payout was over 1000x, even though I didn't really hit anything THAT spectacular. So you must be able to hit 5000x, at least if you get wilds on all five reels. I quit shortly after that, because I figured a slot which can pay out like that is going to have HUGE dead periods to compensate. There's nothing worse than going 500 spins and then hitting a 1x bonus. But that's the only way they can set it up and still have it actually be random.

I probably hit a 50,000-1 spin, and maybe you've hit a 50,000-1 dead patch, which sucks, because they're equally unlikely and one paid big and the other paid squat. But you can't have one without the other and still have an RTP of 96%. That's what it means to be truly random.

*Edited because I mixed up proof and evidence*

 

[greylady]

I have not been playing slots long enough to really have an input into whether slots are random. I get that if you win fairly big and it may be possible others may have won about the same time so the slot must have to recoup the losses in line with it's rtp so therefore may go dead for a while.

What I don't get, if you have a win on one game and move onto several others, they will all be dead. For every win I have had and there are not many I lose constantly until the money I won and some has been played back, no matter what slot I play before I even begin to get above my deposit again - it is the same pattern each time and that does not appear random to me.

 

[richmcd]

I have not been playing slots long enough to really have an input into whether slots are random. I get that if you win fairly big and it may be possible others may have won about the same time so the slot must have to recoup the losses in line with it's rtp so therefore may go dead for a while.

What I don't get, if you have a win on one game and move onto several others, they will all be dead. For every win I have had and there are not many I lose constantly until the money I won and some has been played back, no matter what slot I play before I even begin to get above my deposit again - it is the same pattern each time and that does not appear random to me.

I know it's hard, because it really feels like there are patterns to all this, but our brains just aren't very good at thinking about this stuff. Our brains are the product of tens of thousands of years of evolution to get us to see patterns (or pseudo-patterns) from small amounts of data, because until recently that was a great survival mechanism, even though it produces a ton of false positive results (far better to be mistaken that leaves rustling are a predator than err the other way and get eaten). Slots directly confound all that programming, because they involve NO patterns (really, every spin is independent!) and HUGE numbers (the RTP will work itself out over millions of spins - at any given subset of that it will probably be WAY off). That's partly why they're fun, but it's also entirely why they feel like they're rigged even though they aren't.

And just a point of pedantry: the slots AREN'T deliberately recouping their losses. That would be illegal. It just happens naturally over time because the results average out. Losing combinations outnumber winning combinations, so in the end the money all flows to the casino, despite some bumps along. The trick (or I should say the hope) is that you'll catch one of those bumps and that it will be a big one!

 

[trancemonkey]

I know it's hard, because it really feels like there are patterns to all this, but our brains just aren't very good at thinking about this stuff. Our brains are the product of tens of thousands of years of evolution to get us to see patterns (or pseudo-patterns) from small amounts of data, because until recently that was a great survival mechanism, even though it produces a ton of false positive results (far better to be mistaken that leaves rustling are a predator than err the other way and get eaten). Slots directly confound all that programming, because they involve NO patterns (really, every spin is independent!) and HUGE numbers (the RTP will work itself out over millions of spins - at any given subset of that it will probably be WAY off). That's partly why they're fun, but it's also entirely why they feel like they're rigged even though they aren't.

And just a point of pedantry: the slots AREN'T deliberately recouping their losses. That would be illegal. It just happens naturally over time because the results average out. Losing combinations outnumber winning combinations, so in the end the money all flows to the casino, despite some bumps along. The trick (or I should say the hope) is that you'll catch one of those bumps and that it will be a big one!

Great post... And very much in line with what I've been saying.

People need to look at things differently... So here's a very simple example..

Imagine a 1000 sided dice. If you those 1 to 950 you lose. If you throw 951 to 999 you win 15x. If you throw 1000 you win 100x. Every time you throw the dive it's random. If you are lucky enough to throw 1000, you get a big win. The following throws are not be biased or recouping that 100x win... The chance of you throwing the 1000 is still the same. But you are much more likely to see the losing throws. Slots work in the same way. They aren't recouping. It's just the chance of losing games is much higher than the chance of winning ones. Hence they can feel like they go dead... But of course a big win is rare so of course they will feel "dead" after a big win.