How many people here truly believe slots to be random?

[trancemonkey]

Thats what I want to know. Because when I see someone hit big on bonanza on videoslots I dont play the game for awhile cause its unlikely to do it again soon imo.

Plus I asked big time gaming and he said something to me like if you are losing someone else is winning. Then speaking to VS support the guy told me someone hit big on danger high voltage in that time frame and thats why my rtp was 34.7% after a few hundred spins. Well 700 spins over 2 sessions.

Re what big time gaming said... That's true in the case of trying to explain how rtp balances out its not because anything is programmed to do that it's just because that is how random games work...

 

[goatwack]

But the RTP is the same as the old games..

Ahh but is it...

 

[trancemonkey]

Ahh but is it...

Well if you think old games were over 96% like most games are now you would be mistaken.... The first games I did for online were 96% and that was a long time ago

 

[trancemonkey]

I think it's pretty obvious that I can't change some of your minds... I understand that. I'll do my best to explain what I can and then I guess it's up to you whether you trust me or not

 

[Jono777]

Well the RTP hasn't really changed over time... I think as I've said before that there are so many providers making games that there is a derth of rubbish on the market and it's harder for the good games to come through.

The only thing that's affects speed of loss is volatility (assuming same RTP and same stake). We as players may be playing more volatile games (we know this is true by the way from the data I see) and staking more. I don't know if the second is true but are you all still playing at the same Stakes as you were 10 years ago?

yes mate, same games at the same stakes.

I've noticed "stand out sore thumb" changes in both of the Thunderstruck Games, CFTBL to name a few.

Worst of the bunch now is Netent's "Eggomatic" I literally put 10's of thousands of spins through this over the years and there in no way it plays the same now as it did say 12+ months ago.

Its these 'stand out' observations that set me off on these (possibly) paranoid posts, the decline is not even disguised its totally "in your face".

These comments are not based on one or two visits to the game(s) either its after LOTS of sessions.

No accusations as I've said before but experienced observations which raise IMO genuine queries??

 

[aceking123]

I think it's pretty obvious that I can't change some of your minds... I understand that. I'll do my best to explain what I can and then I guess it's up to you whether you trust me or not

well as players who play these games when you guys have finished producing them, we tend to be somewhat perplexed of some game designs outcomes, rtp % & loads of other things including why it takes 500+ spins to hit a feature to pay peanuts.

As your here answering many questions maybe you can answer one for me , could you please give me a game that you have produced , so i can check it out )

 

[lotusch]

I think it's pretty obvious that I can't change some of your minds... I understand that. I'll do my best to explain what I can and then I guess it's up to you whether you trust me or not

And your input is much appreciated man!
It is nice to see someone from "within" the business take all this time and effort to answer all these questions.
And I do think it is hard to convince people once they have a certain thought about how something works.
I am a prime example of that, I admit it first hand.
I struggle with the whole concept of random while wins sometimes are predetermined (like in pick me features).

But you have to understand that many players seem to experience a change in game play, deposits lasting shorter than ever, slots taking the piss by constantly under perform and eat deposits like mad.
I am sure the RTP still works out the way it should be over all these millions of spins divided by all these players that are playing the slots.
I like to play high variance slots so I know these slots can come with endless patches of dead spins and rubbish wins but even these can sometimes take the piss, good example remains Cleo Plus.. I assume this is one of the most volatile slots in the IGT portfolio.

Also fun to mention,when I first started to play online I hit 2x a 1200x stake plus win on Immortal Romance within my first 50 spins or so.
Both on the 10 FS x 5 multiplier with Sarahs and Wilds in my screen.
This was years ago and never have seen them again.

 

[trancemonkey]

well as players who play these games when you guys have finished producing them, we tend to be somewhat perplexed of some game designs outcomes, rtp % & loads of other things including why it takes 500+ spins to hit a feature to pay peanuts.

As your here answering many questions maybe you can answer one for me , could you please give me a game that you have produced , so i can check it out )

Recent ones online are Super Hot Fruits, Fabric 4 (might only be in William Hill still) and Shamrock Lock (Coral, bet365, etc)

 

[trancemonkey]

And your input is much appreciated man!
It is nice to see someone from "within" the business take all this time and effort to answer all these questions.
And I do think it is hard to convince people once they have a certain thought about how something works.
I am a prime example of that, I admit it first hand.
I struggle with the whole concept of random while wins sometimes are predetermined (like in pick me features).

But you have to understand that many players seem to experience a change in game play, deposits lasting shorter than ever, slots taking the piss by constantly under perform and eat deposits like mad.
I am sure the RTP still works out the way it should be over all these millions of spins divided by all these players that are playing the slots.
I like to play high variance slots so I know these slots can come with endless patches of dead spins and rubbish wins but even these can sometimes take the piss, good example remains Cleo Plus.. I assume this is one of the most volatile slots in the IGT portfolio.

Also fun to mention,when I first started to play online I hit 2x a 1200x stake plus win on Immortal Romance within my first 50 spins or so.
Both on the 10 FS x 5 multiplier with Sarahs and Wilds in my screen.
This was years ago and never have seen them again.

I agree... But I've only had 1000x wins rarely... I've had two in one set of free spins on Rhino two months ago...

But then I know how rare they are and how frequent I expect them to come. I've only ever had one double feature (20 free spins) on Bruce Lee and that was about 2 years ago... I don't claim it's not random because I imagine that feature happens every 1 in 100,000 spins at best...

Change is nearly always perception... Some operators may change maths at times but I doubt it's as many as people think....

 

[aceking123]

Recent ones online are Super Hot Fruits, Fabric 4 (might only be in William Hill still) and Shamrock Lock (Coral, bet365, etc)

Hi Thanks )

K 9 games inspired Super hot fruits

OK so let me start with Super hot fruits im knocking you. just my assessment of the game as i've played this 32 times now @laddys this game is poor lack of main base wins unless you've done far too many spins , going into feature base game again shocking results i've only obtained max of 14 spins & the wild middle has only shown once in all these , i take note that it is capped at 50 spins , problem is it does not justify the stakes , as its poor.

Novo does this far to better to compete )

Shamrock again same k9 inspired games

Now ive had little game play on this slot being 4 times only .so cant really tell as of yet what to make of it , i'm aware the first three times to be fair was a even event not many spins played but the fourth was so what better due to hitting the first four columns with shamrock icon , was hoping for more but i think it was only 100x bet £400 quid @£3 quid i think

im thinking this was wonderspin ? ? ? ?

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Thanks )

K 9 games inspired Super hot fruits

OK so let me start with Super hot fruits im knocking you. just my assessment of the game as i've played this 32 times now @laddys this game is poor lack of main base wins unless you've done far too many spins , going into feature base game again shocking results i've only obtained max of 14 spins & the wild middle has only shown once in all these , i take note that it is capped at 50 spins , problem is it does not justify the stakes , as its poor.

Novo does this far to better to compete )

Shamrock again same k9 inspired games

Now ive had little game play on this slot being 4 times only .so cant really tell as of yet what to make of it , i'm aware the first three times to be fair was a even event not many spins played but the fourth was so what better due to hitting the first four columns with shamrock icon , was hoping for more but i think it was only 100x bet £400 quid @£3 quid i think

im thinking this was wonderspin ? ? ? ?

Yeah so I don't like super hot fruits really but it was done for a non UK market and does well there. It was ported to UK and online.

Shamrock Lock... You should always play with the fortune bet on... The Shamrock Lock symbols for first four reels pays 10x for first two reels, 50x for first three reels, 200x for four and 500x for 5.

Dort forget the multiplier is on the initial stake, not stake including fortune bet.

Do NOT play this in the bookies.. They ruined the game for that version. I only did the online one.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi Thanks )

K 9 games inspired
im thinking this was wonderspin ? ? ? ?

K9 was my studio until I left last June.

Just another note re: Shamrock Lock... What you had was the Lock 'n' Roll feature where the first 3 4 or 5 reels lock together...

The wonder spin feature is achieved when you get a full reel wild on the middle reel. This gives you one respin with reels 2 and 4 wild and if you get no win from that, you get one with reels 1 3 and 5 wild.

 

[aceking123]

Yeah so I don't like super hot fruits really but it was done for a non UK market and does well there. It was ported to UK and online.

Shamrock Lock... You should always play with the fortune bet on... The Shamrock Lock symbols for first four reels pays 10x for first two reels, 50x for first three reels, 200x for four and 500x for 5.

Dort forget the multiplier is on the initial stake, not stake including fortune bet.

Do NOT play this in the bookies.. They ruined the game for that version. I only did the online one.

ahh that's great to know, i do tend to always play it with fortune bet so i'm heading in right direction

Did you work on centurion , rise of anubis thinking these slots are k9 inspired ???

 

[trancemonkey]

ahh that's great to know, i do tend to always play it with fortune bet so i'm heading in right direction

Did you work on centurion , rise of anubis thinking these slots are k9 inspired ???

Centurion no - that was done before I joined... Rise of Anubis was mainly another producer too.

You get 1.5% more rtp with fortune bet turned on too

 

[Jono777]

This is only a thought / idea and looking for some agreement / disagreement please.

Does anyone think the reason we see less big wins is anything to do with the growth of the industry in recent times?

I mean a much bigger player base, a LOT of new casinos springing up all the time, therefore a much larger "spread" of server results as opposed to "back in the day" when there were fewer of us so we saw the bigger hits more often?

Cheers!

 

[trancemonkey]

This is only a thought / idea and looking for some agreement / disagreement please.

Does anyone think the reason we see less big wins is anything to do with the growth of the industry in recent times?

I mean a much bigger player base, a LOT of new casinos springing up all the time, therefore a much larger "spread" of server results as opposed to "back in the day" when there were fewer of us so we saw the bigger hits more often?

Cheers!

The number of players makes no difference. Every time you press start you have the same change of every result whether there are 1 person or 1 million people playing.

 

[BananaCognac]

Nobody can categorically say they are/are not random - we can only give our opinion from playing history.

Now -- i have been playing predominantly land based over the past 6 months and for those of you familiar with Aristocrat slots/pokies - the Lightning Link
games (around 6 - 8 different themes) - I am of the opinion that bet amounts and hitting the feature are linked.

For Eg: playing max lines (50) at $0.01 a line - so $0.50 a spin. You churn through $20 at a quick rate without getting the feature or even a decent base game hit.

You drop your bet to 30 lines at $0.01 - so $0.30 a spin. And 9/10, without a doubt - you will hit the bonus feature within the next 20 spins.

So I do believe that bet amounts played do play a role in how well you will be rewarded.

 

[trancemonkey]

Nobody can categorically say they are/are not random - we can only give our opinion from playing history.

Now -- i have been playing predominantly land based over the past 6 months and for those of you familiar with Aristocrat slots/pokies - the Lightning Link
games (around 6 - 8 different themes) - I am of the opinion that bet amounts and hitting the feature are linked.

For Eg: playing max lines (50) at $0.01 a line - so $0.50 a spin. You churn through $20 at a quick rate without getting the feature or even a decent base game hit.

You drop your bet to 30 lines at $0.01 - so $0.30 a spin. And 9/10, without a doubt - you will hit the bonus feature within the next 20 spins.

So I do believe that bet amounts played do play a role in how well you will be rewarded.

I know exactly how these games work... I've done a lot of research in to them.... I have one next to my desk and I'm telling you now that's not true However the feature is frequent on this game... Very frequent.

 

[trancemonkey]

Nobody can categorically say they are/are not random - we can only give our opinion from playing history.

I can... It's my job

 

[TNY]

Hi all,
Just wanted to say thank you to Trancemonkey. Its great to have someone with your experience on the forum and appreciate the time you have taken to explain things from your point of view. Information is not always easily accessible and as a player we can often feel "fobbed off" or avoided when asking questions of the industry peeps.
In relation to randomness, 6 - 12 months ago i was loudly singing the chorus that slots have changed. This was on the back of a horrible 12 months of minimal wins/withdrawals, pointless bonus rounds and shortened game time from deposits. Fortunately though, since then my RTP has been quite good and ive been lucky enough to have a few 1000x wins over the last 6 months. I probably deposit a little more than i used to but have been able to get a decent amount of play time from my deposits and often in the position to withdraw or re-coup a reasonable amount of my initial deposits at the close of session. The fact that i actually rarely do this is my own fault and can more appropriately be attributed momentary retardation than anything to do with randomness.
On reflection, i think my game play and activity was also impacting my chances of getting a big win. For a while, i was playing in a lot of battles/tournies where although fun, often soaks up a lot of your play time and because big wins in these formats often doesn't translate into real money, you forget to count them. Well, i did anyway... i think.
One more point i would like to touch on is like a number of other posters i have some concerns regarding the likes of YGGDrasil particularly with the game VGB. Shit, im no expert in the matter but this game really seems to suck people in and makes me wonder about their ethical awareness. This game more than any seems to emphasize a number of features I imagine would be problematic for gamblers with addiction are IMO are pushing the boundaries or fairness in their game design. This is particularly obvious with 'picking bonus round' and the rings around the players that always move at different speeds and although appear to offer a realistic chance of redeeming lost money, rarely seem to deliver.
cheers, happy Saturday.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi all,
Just wanted to say thank you to Trancemonkey. Its great to have someone with your experience on the forum and appreciate the time you have taken to explain things from your point of view. Information is not always easily accessible and as a player we can often feel "fobbed off" or avoided when asking questions of the industry peeps.
In relation to randomness, 6 - 12 months ago i was loudly singing the chorus that slots have changed. This was on the back of a horrible 12 months of minimal wins/withdrawals, pointless bonus rounds and shortened game time from deposits. Fortunately though, since then my RTP has been quite good and ive been lucky enough to have a few 1000x wins over the last 6 months. I probably deposit a little more than i used to but have been able to get a decent amount of play time from my deposits and often in the position to withdraw or re-coup a reasonable amount of my initial deposits at the close of session. The fact that i actually rarely do this is my own fault and can more appropriately be attributed momentary retardation than anything to do with randomness.
On reflection, i think my game play and activity was also impacting my chances of getting a big win. For a while, i was playing in a lot of battles/tournies where although fun, often soaks up a lot of your play time and because big wins in these formats often doesn't translate into real money, you forget to count them. Well, i did anyway... i think.
One more point i would like to touch on is like a number of other posters i have some concerns regarding the likes of YGGDrasil particularly with the game VGB. Shit, im no expert in the matter but this game really seems to suck people in and makes me wonder about their ethical awareness. This game more than any seems to emphasize a number of features I imagine would be problematic for gamblers with addiction are IMO are pushing the boundaries or fairness in their game design. This is particularly obvious with 'picking bonus round' and the rings around the players that always move at different speeds and although appear to offer a realistic chance of redeeming lost money, rarely seem to deliver.
cheers, happy Saturday.

A good post and pretty much sums up some of what I think the reasons are for people's beliefs... And yes some providers don't help themselves...

 

[nojoke]

Random ?


I think the only "Random" thing is wether your account has been deemed worthy of a win for a change.
Very easy for "The Central Nerve System" to check how badly your account has been treated over a given amount of time and money deposited.
Your account is then compensated for the losses with wins that will always leave you losing in the long run.

Ever noticed how when the "Winning" is happening it happens on every game you open ?
How can that be ?

When you lose, Every game you open, You lose on.
How can that be ?

The casino/provider only has to return 96% or whatever it is to the customer, So why would they give the customer any more ?
Would they not just "Compensate" and then call it "Random". I reckon so.

Tin foil, I eat it it for breakfast!

 

[trancemonkey]

Random ?


I think the only "Random" thing is wether your account has been deemed worthy of a win for a change.
Very easy for "The Central Nerve System" to check how badly your account has been treated over a given amount of time and money deposited.
Your account is then compensated for the losses with wins that will always leave you losing in the long run.

Ever noticed how when the "Winning" is happening it happens on every game you open ?
How can that be ?

When you lose, Every game you open, You lose on.
How can that be ?

The casino/provider only has to return 96% or whatever it is to the customer, So why would they give the customer any more ?
Would they not just "Compensate" and then call it "Random". I reckon so.

Tin foil, I eat it it for breakfast!

Well for one, for your hypothesis to be true, every single provider would have to be in on it....

 

[nojoke]

Well for one, for your hypothesis to be true, every single provider would have to be in on it....

They each have their own "Central Nerve Sytem" though......Do they not ?

Very easy to keep it "In House" like many large and small organisations do.

"Sign this please"

 

[trancemonkey]

I give up... You guys have beaten me...
I'm gonna go and make some random slots and leave you with the notion we rig everything as nothing I can say will change your mind.

From now on in threads like this I'm gonna try and just observe...