Resolved Heroes Casino - Blackjack issues, slow-pay

[The Dude]

"seriously extenuating", that does not sound good,,,can you at least give us a hint Max as to what context you are using the word "extenuating" Thanks

The casino is thoroughly covering every point that Westland Bowl has made (on and off line). It's a long and detailed response.

 

[jetset]

Is this some kind of proprietary software, don't think I've ever heard of this outfit...where are they based out of ??

Belated answer to your query - it's Gale Wind software, and as remarked by Westland it is used by Heroes and Pinnacle.

Operator of Heroes is Island Runner Limited, North Yorkshire, UK - kinda vague address.

 

[GrandMaster]

This is the information from Companies House:

Name & Registered Office:
ISLAND RUNNERS LIMITED
15 GRANBY PLACE, QUEENS STREET
SCARBOROUGH
NORTH YORKSHIRE
YO11 1HL
Company No. 06493044


Status: Active
Date of Incorporation: 04/02/2008

Country of Origin: United Kingdom
Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature of Business (SIC(03)):
7487 - Other business activities
Accounting Reference Date: 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To: (NO ACCOUNTS FILED)
Next Accounts Due: 04/12/2009
Last Return Made Up To: 04/02/2009
Next Return Due: 04/03/2010
Last Members List: 04/02/2009

Lotus Gaming is registered at the same address, which may not necessarily mean any connection between the two companies.

 

[aka23]

I have not been able to find the rules of blackjack on heroescasino.com, but it is very rare to find blackjack with a possible player advantage online. Furthermore, exploiting such an advantage would only give the player a slight edge over the casino, which would not result in the quick profit achieved by WB. Assuming that the software is fair, the deck is shuffled before every hand and the rules are not too generous, there is simply no advantage play, all the optimal strategy can achieve is the smallest possible disadvantage. From what I read elsewhere, WB did not take a bonus, he was using a betting system, and he was merely lucky. Assuming the rules of blackjack are like at most online casinos, the casino's claim of "advantage play" means that the software is not fair.

They use Gale Wind SW. Their BJ game uses standard online 6-deck rules with a 0.46% HE. Post #42 made it sound like Heroes is suggesting a connection to Cipher's program. I suspect that Heroes' "advantage play" means WB's "modified Martingale progression" betting, rather than more traditional definitions of advantage play with heavy use of bonuses or their cashback. If the BJ game is purely random, Martingale betting strategies and such will not give an advantage. In contrast, I'd expect a casino to be happy to have high rollers using such strategies and go out of their way to keep them playing.

 

[vinylweatherman]

They use Gale Wind SW. Their BJ game uses standard online 6-deck rules with a 0.46% HE. Post #42 made it sound like Heroes is suggesting a connection to Cipher's program. I suspect that Heroes' "advantage play" means WB's "modified Martingale progression" betting, rather than more traditional definitions of advantage play with heavy use of bonuses or their cashback. If the BJ game is purely random, Martingale betting strategies and such will not give an advantage. In contrast, I'd expect a casino to be happy to have high rollers using such strategies and go out of their way to keep them playing.

Which, as we now know, is bogus, and he has lost many investors a shed load of money.

A casino should not even THINK of non-payment because a player simply varied their bets. It is the SAME as claiming their own software is NOT random, and can be outsmarted by a specific betting strategy.

These "extenuating circumstances" had better be something else, and had better be provable.

 

[same_old]

*bump*

 

[blackjackguide]

Wow, this is quite a thread to catch up on. Very curious to see what the results of this casino paying.

I always had bad feelings about Hero's casino just from the website design. Most of the time, if the website is designed poorly, it is probably a shady operation. On the flip side, I have seen some really nice sites that are a scam.

Looking forward to see if they pay up.

 

[The Dude]

Which, as we now know, is bogus, and he has lost many investors a shed load of money...

If it is bogus, please provide specific examples (Cipher). I think this was a betting system - correct me if I'm wrong - that was uploaded somehow into spread sheets. But that's another story, I don't want the thread to spiral into that direction.

*bump*

I have the play logs and am looking them over for anything out of the ordinary. The casino claims he used an automated system (which violates their terms and conditions). The player says he may have used a system, but it wasn't automated...

 

[Zoozie]

If it is bogus, please provide specific examples (Cipher). I think this was a betting system - correct me if I'm wrong - that was uploaded somehow into spread sheets. But that's another story, I don't want the thread to spiral into that direction.

I have the play logs and am looking them over for anything out of the ordinary. The casino claims he used an automated system (which violates their terms and conditions). The player says he may have used a system, but it wasn't automated...

Cipher's BJ system was not just a simple betting system. It was a sofisticated(lol..) 'trend'/pattern tracking software that from the RNG pattern should be able to predict(a little better than another RNG) future outcomes.

To put it short Cipher system=Voodoo magic. There is no reason to comment this further.

Does automated system means bot?

 

[Westland Bowl]

Here is an example of my "system". Taken from Dec 25 and 26, 2008. On paper, it is broken into sessions of 25 or 26 blackjack hands. In casino player logs, it would look like one continuous string of hands as I didn't log off or played other games between sessions during this time.

I didn't always win, as you can see I lost $1,028.50 in the last one.

 

[winbig]

Wow, people still use paper and pens/pencils??

[/mini-derail]

 

[Westland Bowl]

Wow, people still use paper and pens/pencils??

[/mini-derail]

Well, I find it faster than 'point and click'.

Wow, my 500th post!

 

[Mousey]

I don't know where all of this will end up, but I will say that if players who simply use 'systems' are denied winnings solely on that basis, we're all in a whole lot of trouble. If casinos fear basic strategy, remove the blackjack games. If the software is random, systems are no wide spread threat. Lady Luck... now she can smile and help a player every now and then...

I'm glad the Georgia Lottery didn't know systems were
'dangerous' for them and didn't deny my uncles win because he'd been playing his children's ages for number picks every week for a year when he won.

I am interested to see how this indepth look-see into WB's play pans out...

 

[The Dude]

Just an update. I've been in touch with the software provider and there should be a resolution by Friday (tomorrow).

As for WB's player logs - I've looked at them - and so have a number of others. There is no indication of bot or automatic play. I have no idea what the casino operators are thinking.

WB may be using a strategy, but whether it's via paper and pencil or a computer program IT WILL NOT PREDICT RANDOMLY GENERATED NUMBERS OR THE FUTURE.

RE: Systems. All operators and players should read the following:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Systems = pseudo-science = snake oil and magic fairy dust.

 

[Westland Bowl]

Heroes Casino has contacted me and there is a plan to pay me in full! Once my bank's fat lady sings, I'll post that they came through!

 

[The Dude]

Heroes Casino has contacted me and there is a plan to pay me in full! Once my bank's fat lady sings, I'll post that they came through!

Excellent news! It's a real shame that it had to come to this point though. But you were persistent, and we've been in touch with the right people - so there.

Please - PLEASE in the future (this is directed towards everyone), if you have an issue that needs resolution, make sure you explicitly ask for assistance. If you don't ask, Max or I will assume you're dealing with this on your own. For example, this issue could have been dealt with months ago - Max and I only recently got involved relatively speaking.

 

[maxd]

I wanted to say "ya! what he said" to Bryan's statement and to point out that there is seldom any good reason to avoid PABing as soon as your issue has reached the point where you qualify for a PAB (see the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ). The PAB process is private and professional so there is basically no downside as far as the casino is concerned.

It's only when things turn sour -- such as the casino refusing to respond or whatever -- that the downside for the casino starts to become an issue. So if you are thinking of delaying your PAB you need to ask yourself this: if it's going to go badly do I want that to come to light now or later?

Only you can answer that for your particular case but I think it's obvious where the smart money goes.

 

[classymom]

Heroes Casino has contacted me and there is a plan to pay me in full! Once my bank's fat lady sings, I'll post that they came through!

Thats really good news

 

[RobWin]

That is great news WestlandBowl, spend it wisely when you do get it and also in the future you might want to double check out the places you are getting ready to make deposits to...

 

[Jasminebed]

Heroes Casino has contacted me and there is a plan to pay me in full! Once my bank's fat lady sings, I'll post that they came through!

Canada's Lotto 6/49 has a series of commercials asking folks to show their happy dance. I am so pleased that you are to receive your winnings WestlandBowl !!!

 

[blackjackguide]

This is great news to hear that this player is being paid. Its a shame that it took this long for it to happen.

 

[The Dude]

This is great news to hear that this player is being paid. Its a shame that it took this long for it to happen.

And the casino was shut down by the software provider. Good going on their part.

 

[Westland Bowl]

I just want to add that Heroes is not shutting down their sportbook operations and will re-start their casino side once they've switch to another casino software provider. FYI.

 

[winbig]

And the casino was shut down by the software provider. Good going on their part.

I think someone forgot to tell Heroes that....their casino page is still up but their download link is

"Please pardon the Inconvenience...
The Server is off line for a short time.


The Server is probably recieving an update, or is in a scheduled maintenance cycle. We'll be back online in a short period of time.


Resolution:

* Please try again in a few minutes.
"

 

[The Dude]

I just want to add that Heroes is not shutting down their sportbook operations and will re-start their casino side once they've switch to another casino software provider. FYI.

Remind me on Monday to throw them into the "Rogue" pit. Thanks.

 

[same_old]

Awee Westland, that's the best news Ive had all week mateyk, well done on your patience and being a stand up guy about all of this.

Treat yourself to a little something something and have a beer or 6 for me.


Really happy for you matey

 

[jetset]

I second that - WTG Westland Bowl!

I guess kudos are in order, too, for Gale Winds software for shutting this casino down.

 

[Mousey]

I second that - WTG Westland Bowl!

I guess kudos are in order, too, for Gale Winds software for shutting this casino down.[/QUOTE]


Yes, this is good news, but.... might the casino use this as a reason/excuse not to pay or drag out payments in installments? (Saying, boohoo, getting shut down, got no money, congrats, but can't pay you right now... ?)

*crossing my fingers for you WB* I won't be happy about this whole thing till you see the money in your hands/bank.

 

[maxd]

... kudos are in order, too, for Gale Winds software for shutting this casino down.

Heroes is claiming that they'll be sailing on under new software.

As I understand it it is Galewind, not Heroes, that will be paying WB so no, the casino 'transition' should not impact WB's payout.

Based on this info, assuming it is in fact correct, Galewind deserves serious kudos since they're stepping up to the plate to do the right thing regardless of Heroes' questionable role in all of this.

And on that latter point CM's Rogueing of Heroes seems doubly appropriate, IMHO.

 

[LaurieJim]

This is great news Tim, congrats....... yep to the rogue pit they need to go............laurie

 

[deucebag]

Does Heroes still maintain that Westland Bowl was able to predict the outcome of hands through his system? Is that why the software provider is paying out winnings?

 

[jetset]

If Gale Winds is not only shutting these bozos down, but looking after the player to boot, then that is - as Max says - some serious kudos due.

And this is a presumably new and not very well known provider, which makes such a player-sensitive stance even more unusual.

We'll hopefully soon know whether GW is good on their word, as Westland will be keeping us informed of developments here.

On the face of these circumstances, Heroes belongs in rogue-land alright.

 

[jetset]

Interesting information from

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Post #164 where Heroes Casino is reported as claiming:

"We are not closing our doors, actually we are moving forward with a full head of steam. The sportsbook is our main staple at this point. We are changing casino providers since our previous provider had faulty software that allowed people to use pattern software to cheat the casino.

"Since the provider failed to open their source code up to testing by a company called TST they were forced to also pay Tim ****** for the full amount he won in the casino. The only way that these pattern recognition software would work is if there is either a weak RNG or some other part of the software was faulty. Without a full source code evaluation this could not be confirmed.

"Again we are open and strong as far as sportbetting is concerned and as soon as we finish the integration and testing of our new casino that too will be back online."

 

[same_old]

If Gale Winds is not only shutting these bozos down, but looking after the player to boot, then that is - as Max says - some serious kudos due.

And this is a presumably new and not very well known provider, which makes such a player-sensitive stance even more unusual.

We'll hopefully soon know whether GW is good on their word, as Westland will be keeping us informed of developments here.

On the face of these circumstances, Heroes belongs in rogue-land alright.

That is by far great news for WB and as you say MASSIVE kudos to Gale Winds for doing this, it's not there debt to pay but are willing to as they are the provider, I havent even heard of this from the big wigs, rival,MG and playtech... great start to a good relationship..

What I want to know is,what the outcome is, did Hereo's make a stance and say he's playing dishonetly or what???-

Why has it come to Gake Winds paying and not Heroes who owns the debt??

 

[maxd]

.... We are changing casino providers since our previous provider had faulty software that allowed people to use pattern software to cheat the casino.

As an ex software engineer of some 15 years and someone who had a particular fascination with RNGs -- I built many over the years -- I can tell you with 99% certainty that they are blowing smoke up the ass of the readers of that post.

Basically they're using semi-tech mumbo jumbo to say it was the software's fault and not theirs. Their thing about "disclose the software", ha! _Nobody_ 'discloses' their software and it would be of very little use if they did. You'd need some pretty hardcore software experts to make much use of the code: the results of the RNG -- not that I believe that cover-story for a second -- are more than sufficient to tell them what they need to know about that aspect of the system.

In fact I can tell you how an RNG is evaluated. You produce a sample space of some several hundreds of thousands of RNG results and that is subjected to statistical analysis. What you're looking for is trends or patterns. Almost all RNGs will have trends or patterns but in the good ones the pattern only occurs over a _vast_ range of results so, for practical purposes, the results are random. In the really good RNGs they are based on truly random data and those (basically) do not have patterns or trends ... but they're hideously expensive. The bottom line is that no one looks at the code except the guy who wrote it or the guy that wants to tweak it: it's the results that matter and that's what everyone uses.

If you want my opinion, and this is _not_ an official Casinomeister position on this, they got caught with their pants down -- quite possibly _before_ WB's issue came to light -- and they're trying to squeak out of this with some dignity intact. Unfortunately they've decided that a smoke-and-mirrors show is the way to do it and that's really just making things worse.

And yes, Heroes is still claiming that WB was cheating and that makes them innocent of all charges, that they were merely the victims of faulty software and therefore acting appropriately and so forth. _That's_ why Galewind is paying the bill, because Heroes can't or won't.

 

[jetset]

The truth is so often elusive in these cases, and I am trying to establish contact with Gale Winds to give them an opportunity to give their perspective on this slur against their reputation.

 

[same_old]

wow, just seen your latest post there jetset,

So is this a case of he said she said now??

Heroes are saying the software isnt random and on the other foot we have Gale Winds saying we are no longer supporting Heroe's casino.

Only one of two things here isnt there, the casino admits behind closed doors the software is not right hence them paying out Westland OR Heroes not admitting there is nothing really wrong and staying on the gravytrain in saying the software isnt random as to not pay out Westland.

either way something is pretty fishy here to say the least..

 

[jetset]

Right - request for comment and RNG certification submitted here:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Galewind Software Corp.
300 - 1275 West 6th Avenue
Vancouver, BC V6H 1A6
Canada

Phone: (604) 909-3845
FAX: (604) 909-3846

Let's see what the other side of the argument is....

 

[maxd]

Heroes are saying the software isnt random and on the other foot we have Gale Winds saying we are no longer supporting Heroe's casino.

Not quite how it stands. Heroes is saying:
(a) the software was snarfed, and
(b) the player was using a system, and
(c) it was the snarfed software that allowed the player to win, so
(d) we're not paying the player because of (a) + (b) + (c), and besides
(e) we're getting rid of the snarfed software and moving on to something else.

Galewinds is saying:
(a) we're no longer licensing our software to Heroes, and
(b) we're paying the guy that played and won.

You pick which version of events sounds plausible to you.

I will say this though: who's accepting responsibility here and who is passing the buck with both hands?

 

[Jufo]

If Heroes announces that their blackjack has been faulty then isn't there a case of refunding monies to all players who have lost playing that faulty game?

 

[maxd]

If Heroes announces that their blackjack has been faulty then isn't there a case of refunding monies to all players who have lost playing that faulty game?

Not that simple really. They're saying the RNG wasn't random enough, not that the games were broken. It's like saying that the VP was paying out a little too much or there was a bit too many blacks showing up in the Roulette. The game is not broken, just that it could play better. It's all part of the 'funk' in the funkiness of RNGs.

 

[Jufo]

Not that simple really. They're saying the RNG wasn't random enough, not that the games were broken. It's like saying that the VP was paying out a little too much or there was a bit too many blacks showing up in the Roulette. The game is not broken, just that it could play better. It's all part of the 'funk' in the funkiness of RNGs.

I do get the reasoning, but what if I had made large wagers on red at roulette and later it was discovered that because of 'funkiness' or RNG too many blacks were dealt? So 'funky' RNG could put some players at unfair disadvantage. If Heroes' stand is that all Westland's wagers are void then the the wagers of other (losing) players should be void as well.

 

[winbig]

I do get the reasoning, but what if I had made large wagers on red at roulette and later it was discovered that because of 'funkiness' or RNG too many blacks were dealt? So 'funky' RNG could put some players at unfair disadvantage. If Heroes' stand is that all Westland's wagers are void then the the wagers of other (losing) players should be void as well.

Ultimately, it's up to Heroes to prove that the RNG is indeed not up to par, and go from there. If Heroes indeed has proof of this, then the logical course of action would be to pay WB his winnings, sever their contract with the software provider and then take them to court to get WB and other player's BJ winnings paid back to them. If you'll remember, this is exactly what UB did when it was found that their software provider included a backdoor when they released their software.

But, this is the way I see it:

Either Heroes simply does not want to pay such a big win off of a small deposit, or are very under-funded..

Seeing as how the software provider is the one paying WB and not Heroes only makes Heroes' "faulty RNG" claim even less believable.

 

[aka23]

Not quite how it stands. Heroes is saying:
(a) the software was snarfed, and
(b) the player was using a system, and
(c) it was the snarfed software that allowed the player to win, so
(d) we're not paying the player because of (a) + (b) + (c), and besides
(e) we're getting rid of the snarfed software and moving on to something else.

Galewinds is saying:
(a) we're no longer licensing our software to Heroes, and
(b) we're paying the guy that played and won.

You pick which version of events sounds plausible to you.

I will say this though: who's accepting responsibility here and who is passing the buck with both hands?

The two positions aren't completely contradictory.

I think that Heroes believes the player won because he used a system, and understands that this is only possible with a non-random game. However, I doubt the game really is non-random. Instead I think the player made large bets and got lucky. If you make increasingly large bets, sometimes you win big and sometimes you lose big. If I had the player logs, I could tell the chance of that size of a win occurring in a random distribution, and whether the results are within normal variance.

If it really is possible to gain a large edge by tracking wins & losses and the casino permits up to $20k bets on BJ, then why didn't it take so long for Heroes to see this kind of result... particularly since the first post in this thread quotes a review from Cipher? Also note that there are other casinos using the software, such as Pinnacle. If the software can be beaten with a basic system (and a fix has not been issued), then I'd expect to hear about some wins and/or issues at other casinos.

 

[winbig]

and don't forget that WB had just as many big losses as he did wins, so that just backs up the fact that there's nothing wrong with the software.

 

[maxd]

The two positions aren't completely contradictory.

I never said they were. I just told you the situation and let you pick who you want to trust.

... 'funky' RNG could put some players at unfair disadvantage.

By definition (almost) all RNGs are funky because it is very very difficult to make a 'perfect' RNG ... it's just how much funkiness you want to accept as reasonable ... and whose decision is that? I guarantee you that you won't be getting an email from Heroes saying "oopsy, we had a funky RNG, so sorry, here's your deposits back."

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

Regarding Galewind Software

Greetings.

Galewind Software hired Certified Fair Gambling (CFG) in February of this year to certify its products. As an independent auditing agency, the task of CFG is to run suites of statistical tests to investigate bias in any form in the games offered by online Internet casinos, and in the absense of identifiable bias, to issue fairness certifications to software providers for online Internet casinos.

CFGs first project on behalf of Galewind Software was Keno. Altogether close to 20 statistical tests were run on this game. Because of the quantity of data produced, Keno is an excellent resource for fairness testing. On March 6, 2009, CFG issued a Casino Game Certification Report to Galewind Software that reads in part:

Audits were conducted on a variety of subsets of the balls dropped in each round. Additional audits were performed on the correlation of balls between rounds and on the overall distribution of balls. In each case it was determined that the subset was within a statistcally normal range. We conclude that the game of Keno offered by Galewind Software Corporation is a fair and accurate reproduction of live play.

CFG ran an exhaustive RTP report covering every game (including blackjack) for log files provided. In every case, the RTP for each casino game was statistically normal. This report was delivered to Galewind Software on April 7, 2009. Blackjack showed a small house edge; the return was typical of results that are expected for blackjack over large sample sizes. The Casino Payout Report reads in part:

In our opinion, these log files fairly and accurately represent the actual and total play for the stated period. We conclude that the payout percetages are correctly calculated based on the actual amounts wagered and winnings paid.

The next project Galewind Software requested was an audit of their Random Number Generator (RNG). It is not normally the case that a software maker would provide their proprietary source code. Galewind provided complete documentation to CFG summarizing the type of RNG they use, how they seed it, how it is implemented in their code, code fragments, and several other specifics that are not normally disclosed. This information, together with a signficant sample of data, allowed CFG to issue a letter of RNG Certification to Galewind Software. This letter, dated April 8, 2009, reads in part:

In the opinion of Certified Fair Gambling, Galewind Software is correctly implementing (undisclosed name of RNG) in the creation of its RNG, is protecting and safeguarding the outcomes of its RNG, and is fairly using its RNG in the creation of all casino game products.

The CFG certification of Galewind Software's RNG was separately reviewed by a gaming professional from a major Las Vegas based slot machine manufacturer and a U.S. Army expert on Cryptography.

After certifying their RNG, CFG was asked to audit blackjack. CFG has audited blackjack many times, including the blackjack offered several online casinos that have a presence on CM. CFG ran its standard suite of tests, as well as some additional tests by specific request of Galewind Software.

The blackjack log files provided to CFG were comprehensive and exhaustive. CFG completed the audit of blackjack on April 9, 2009. There were no statistically abnormal results and there was no indication that the software was performing abnormally. Galewind Software blackjack behaves like ordinary blackjack offered in a brick and mortar (B&M) casino. Based on these results, CFG certified the game of blackjack offered by Galewind Software.

Galewind Software used the statistical information CFG provided, as well as other resources undisclosed to CFG, in reaching their conclusions on how to settle the [Westland Bowl]/Heroes matter.

Subsequently, Heroes casino made the public statement that:

The only way that these pattern recognition software would work is if there is either a weak RNG or some other part of the software was faulty.

In the opinion of CFG, Galewind Software offers a fair and properly functioning product that shows no bias. The RNG is not weak and the software is not faulty.

In the opinion of CFG, the Player (Timothy *******) got lucky.

All auditing certificates as well as the use of CFG services are considered proprietary. The proprietary information included in this document was reproduced with the explicit written permission of Galewind Software.

Please note, CFG does not certify the fairness or integrity of those who license or run online casinos. CFG only certifies that the software is fair and that the games behave in every respect like those offered in B&M casinos. It is up to watch dog sites like this to take the next step.

--Eliot Jacobson, Ph.D.

 

[maxd]

FYI, latest word is that WB has received his cheque, but he's got a long wait for it to clear.

Galewind!

 

[jetset]

Update

No response from Gale Winds to our request for their input on this, but I take Eliot's post as the answer to the Heroes Casino allegation that the software was dud.

Thanks, Eliot

 

[jetset]

Just coming back to this after some reflection on Eliot's post.

These tests all took place from February/March 2009 onwards.

The RNG certification dates from earlier this month.

To be fair on this, one has to ask what was the position with Gale Wind software prior to that?