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Resolved Heroes Casino - Blackjack issues, slow-pay

To be fair to Heroes Casino, the first three weeks from November 15th to December 6th (or 8th, first weekday day) were spent getting the documentation straight.

Cyberluck has (should have) access to analytical tools to examine my play and the casino servers and will inform Heroes Casino as to the results. As I am an auditor myself, I expect these results would be presented in due time and be available for review in report form as to the validity of the methodology used in their investigation. As I won nearly $39K on a small deposit, Heroes Casino certainly would want assurance that I didn't compromise their casino.
 
Westland Bowl said:
To be fair to Heroes Casino, the first three weeks from November 15th to December 6th (or 8th, first weekday day) were spent getting the documentation straight.

Cyberluck has (should have) access to analytical tools to examine my play and the casino servers and will inform Heroes Casino as to the results. As I am an auditor myself, I expect these results would be presented in due time and be available for review in report form as to the validity of the methodology used in their investigation. As I won nearly $39K on a small deposit, Heroes Casino certainly would want assurance that I didn't compromise their casino.
Click to expand...

You certainly have a lot more patience than I do my friend. I would have already flew down there and met them if I had that much money on the line.
 
Westland Bowl said:
I once again sent an email to Cyberluck asking if the investigation is near completion yet.
Click to expand...

West, do you still, really believe that this bunch is going to pay you man and that there really is an investigation actually going on?? You of all people cannot be this naive. Why have you not filled out a PAB form with Max here yet and let him get involved to try and help you out buddy. I mean are you planning on waiting another 3 months. A couple more days and it is March my friend. You are hanging onto a lost hope cause here by a piece of bad thread.
 
RobWin said:
West, do you still, really believe that this bunch is going to pay you man and that there really is an investigation actually going on?? You of all people cannot be this naive. Why have you not filled out a PAB form with Max here yet and let him get involved to try and help you out buddy. I mean are you planning on waiting another 3 months. A couple more days and it is March my friend. You are hanging onto a lost hope cause here by a piece of bad thread.
Click to expand...

I'm trying/tried very hard to give Heroes Casino and Cyberluck the benefit of a doubt and plenty of time. Admittedly, they are pushing it very hard. But I'm just adhering to the first rule of doing PABs: "You have done as much as possible to resolve this problem on your own."
 
Westland Bowl said:
I'm trying/tried very hard to give Heroes Casino and Cyberluck the benefit of a doubt and plenty of time. Admittedly, they are pushing it very hard. But I'm just adhering to the first rule of doing PABs: "You have done as much as possible to resolve this problem on your own."
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You have definitely qualified here to PAB West, go ahead and let Max help you now...:thumbsup:
 
Yeah buddy, on a serious note you need to PAB so max can find out whats going on and rogue them if they are infact giving you the run around.

What is heroes saying to you about this, have you mentioned it has taken well over 3 months now and ALL audits and whatever they wanted to do would be well and truly concluded by now.

Has Cyberluck even gotten back to you about this,
 
same_old said:
.....What is heroes saying to you about this, have you mentioned it has taken well over 3 months now and ALL audits and whatever they wanted to do would be well and truly concluded by now.

Has Cyberluck even gotten back to you about this,
Click to expand...

Wednesday will be six weeks since I first heard from Cyberluck. I haven't heard from them since then.

Yes, Heroes concluded those audits but they are not allowing public review of them. Even I don't know what the reports say. You'll have to contact them yourself but I doubt they will tell you anything or acknowledge you. I guess my betting strategy is that fearsome to them! :D
 
No, I reckon I know what it is, youve only deposited $200 and won $34k , simply put I dont think they want to or are going to pay you, if you deposited $35k and won $36k I bet you would have the funds by now. Small amount for such a big win and they think if this client will come back or if we will even make this back off of him again.


I see you said they completesd the Audit of your play and wont tell you about it BUT did they mention that things looked suspicous or the did they say after the auit we found you were playing fair or anything, did they say since this audit is now complete we are moving on to the next step which is paying you?


This is crap, where are your rights as a player to have this information. they can do Audits and not even tell you, you contact an advocate place that handles there licence or what ever and dont even get stright answers from them after 6 weeks either.. this is blatant stealing of ones money and there is nothing you can really do..
 
same_old said:
No, I reckon I know what it is, youve only deposited $200 and won $34k , simply put I dont think they want to or are going to pay you, if you deposited $35k and won $36k I bet you would have the funds by now. Small amount for such a big win and they think if this client will come back or if we will even make this back off of him again.
Click to expand...

All it takes is to use a careful cautious strategy to turn $200 into $1,000, then use a different betting strategy to turn $1,000 into $5,000 or so. Once you are there you can be a bit more "daring" and bet higher amounts using same strategy. Heck, it wasn't a straight line up to $39,000! I one time lost $6,600 in ONE session! I've lost several times between $4,000 and $7,000, and the worst was when I lost $10,000! I got so mad at myself for losing so much I waited until the right opportunity to start out BIG $500 betting maximum on one of those high win sessions. After having two very low win sessions in a row below 30%, I figured "Ok, this next session will probably be a good winning session" and I started out $500 max bet. I won the bet so I continued to bet $500 each hand as long as I was winning. Turns out I won like 8 hands in a row to start out this session and eventually won about $6,200 for the session (56% win session btw.) Anyway, the more my payment keeps getting delayed, the more likely I might end up giving away my betting strategy from answering these questions! :D

I see you said they completesd the Audit of your play and wont tell you about it BUT did they mention that things looked suspicous or the did they say after the auit we found you were playing fair or anything, did they say since this audit is now complete we are moving on to the next step which is paying you?
Click to expand...

By the time I asked to see the "audit reports," things had already deteriorated between me and Heroes. They said they didn't want me to reveal them to anyone else or quote from the reports because of the terms made with the "auditors" who don't want their work being publicized. I wouldn't agree to those terms so I didn't see the reports and thereafter I contacted Cyberluck. After Cyberluck contacted Heroes, me and Heroes stopped communicating. So I'm awaiting word from Cyberluck.

This is crap, where are your rights as a player to have this information. they can do Audits and not even tell you, you contact an advocate place that handles there licence or what ever and dont even get stright answers from them after 6 weeks either.. this is blatant stealing of ones money and there is nothing you can really do..
Click to expand...

Oh, I haven't done half of what I can do. But all along the way, I'm giving all parties plenty of time and the benefit of a doubt. But after all this time, it should be obvious to everyone that the elephant isn't in the room. :rolleyes:
 
Westland Bowl said:
It's about three or four steps down the line. I hope I wouldn't have to do a PAB but if I do, then Max and Bryan will absolutely know I've done all I can up to that point.
Click to expand...

TBH, I seriously doubt there's anything more that you can do in this matter. Just PAB and get it over with. It's pretty well proven that Heroes doesn't want to pay, and the outside help you've already tried to get doesn't seem too interested in the matter, either.
 
Police-01-june.gif


Heroes, contact Peter Andrews!
 
Westland Bowl said:
I'm trying/tried very hard to give Heroes Casino and Cyberluck the benefit of a doubt and plenty of time. Admittedly, they are pushing it very hard. But I'm just adhering to the first rule of doing PABs: "You have done as much as possible to resolve this problem on your own."
Click to expand...

I think "as much as possible" is really as much as is reasonably possible. Otherwise, every player would have to initiate a lawsuit and bring it to court before PABing.

This has gone on a long time for a large sum of money. CM and Maxd have resources at their disposal you or your affiliate do not have.
 
same_old said:
These guy's need a big ROGUE sticker attached to them, seriously this is mind blowing and they are hoping it all goes away, 3+ months to get paid is just not on.


Please tell me you have PAB'd.
Click to expand...

I totally agree with you same_old, off to the Rogue Pit with this bunch! Congress could have investigated Westlandbowls game play in this amount of time and also published a report on it's findings by now..:eek2:
 
Problem is that this has been dragged out so long in public that there may not be much left for us to do if and when the OP does PAB. That's part of the reason why the PAB should have been done __long long__ ago.
 
maxd said:
Problem is that this has been dragged out so long in public that there may not be much left for us to do if and when the OP does PAB. That's part of the reason why the PAB should have been done __long long__ ago.
Click to expand...

Westland, how come you havent P.A.B yet?:confused: Im sorry but thats alot of money to be waiting on their silly asses when Maxd, with any luck could have had this already resolved for you or you would have atleast known the true skinny on whats going on with those folks over at Heroes, man take the help that has been offered, we all would just like to see you get paid what you won.......................laurie
 
maxd said:
Problem is that this has been dragged out so long in public that there may not be much left for us to do if and when the OP does PAB. That's part of the reason why the PAB should have been done __long long__ ago.
Click to expand...

Well, the OP did very little "dragging out" IMO...he's bent over backwards to be patient and resolve it on his own. I do hope he takes advantage of the PAB to see if a resolution can be made.
 
My post said "dragged out so long in public". These are the OP's post dates on this subject:

16th November 2008, 11:39 AM
16th November 2008, 05:51 PM
16th November 2008, 06:08 PM
16th November 2008, 06:09 PM
17th November 2008, 04:11 AM
17th November 2008, 04:18 AM
18th November 2008, 11:47 AM
18th November 2008, 05:53 PM
23rd November 2008, 10:57 PM
23rd November 2008, 11:40 PM
24th November 2008, 03:42 PM
25th November 2008, 05:10 AM
25th November 2008, 05:17 AM
27th November 2008, 06:04 AM
13th December 2008, 12:02 AM
14th December 2008, 08:21 PM
15th December 2008, 08:05 PM
17th December 2008, 05:50 PM
23rd December 2008, 04:08 AM
2nd January 2009, 09:43 PM
3rd January 2009, 01:50 PM
11th January 2009, 04:24 AM
25th January 2009, 04:32 PM
31st January 2009, 01:18 PM
11th February 2009, 11:16 AM
19th February 2009, 11:33 PM
20th February 2009, 02:19 AM
26th February 2009, 03:57 AM
26th February 2009, 04:30 AM
2nd March 2009, 05:04 AM
2nd March 2009, 11:53 AM
2nd March 2009, 07:32 PM
5th March 2009, 03:44 AM
5th March 2009, 04:02 AM

That is the very definition of "dragged out in public" if you ask me. You'll note that I didn't say anything either way about the OP being "patient" because that's not the point.

The point is that PAB issues get resolved best if they are fresh and addressed quickly, as indicated in the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ. This issue fails on both counts.
 
maxd said:
... The point is that PAB issues get resolved best if they are fresh and addressed quickly ... This issue fails on both counts.
Click to expand...

I should have said "PAB issues get resolved best if they are fresh, addressed quickly and not turned into public issues by being debated on the boards. This issue fails on all three counts." Again, all of this is in the Pitch-A-Bitch FAQ.
 
Something is just not quite right about this case IMO, I do hope that Westlandbowl will get his money but after this length of time and Westlandbowls lack of pro-activeness to let Max or Bryan get involved here to help in this matter just leaves more questions IMO.

Any update on this issue West ??
 
I should say that my point is not to slag Westland or anything like that. It just so happens that this issue has become the poster child for how _not_ to handle an issue if you have any hopes of getting it resolved via the Pitch-A-Bitch process.

I admire West's sense of honour and such by being patient and understanding and all that. However, in real world situations of this nature -- though not specifically this case -- letting things drag on, posting about them dozens of times on the forums and assuming that the PAB is the last resort are all pretty much misguided.

As I've said, PABs have the best chance of being resolved if they are filed quickly, pursued vigorously and ended promptly. Most casinos already know this and respond accordingly. There is no stigma attached because if they are handled promptly and professionally they are never seen nor discussed in public. It can be a quick, clean, "everybody wins" situation.

Unfortunately this issue now has next to zero chance of being included in that happy group because of the way it has been handled. Sorry but that's just the way it pans out if it is handled in the way we've seen it done here.

West's best chance at this point is to have the casino come through for him voluntarily, which is clearly what he's been banking on since the beginning. If they don't then this thing is likely to get messy because it's so far past its "best before" date.
 
Just a quick admin note - public discussion is just that - it's a discussion. This is a big forum and just a segment of Casinomeister; it's just about impossible for me to keep up with every issue on the message board.

If you want action - then PAB. This will get direct action from Max, and he flags these issues for me to consider for the rogue pit (I am the "roguemeister" don't forget).

You can also PM me or use the "Report Post" function. And then harrass me with follow-up emails. Sometimes these issues are the step-children of bad timing (the moderators or I may be out of town, other major issues, etc.).

WB PMd me about this issue some time ago, said he wasn't PABing yet. I need to check.
 
From November 15th to December 6th: Documentation issues- I had to provide digital scans of my driver's license and passport. My passport had expired and I had to wait for a renewed passport.

December 6th to January 9th: Waiting for Heroes Casino to validate, audit, review, examine my play.

January 9th: Contacted by Heroes to set up a phone call to discuss my play.

January 16th: Phone call. We agreed to terms. Heroes management supposed to contact owner regarding terms "next week".

January 23rd: I contact Heroes management. They still needed to hear from owner. A whole week goes by and they still "haven't heard from the owner?" I decided to push to be paid in full.

January 23rd to January 26th: War of words between me and Heroes.

January 26th: Cyberluck contacted by me. Discussion between me and Heroes stop.

January 26th to present: Waiting for Cyberluck to finish their forensic analysis.

So it wasn't until January 16th that I found out for sure that Heroes didn't want to pay me in full. Perhaps I should have realized something was up when Heroes insisted on a digital scan of my driver's license AND unexpired passport (to visit them in person?)
 
Like I said man, all kudos to you for your patience and diligence and all the rest of it but _if_ you're doing with a "no pay" situation ... doing a PAB sooner than later would have been the wiser move, IMHO.
 
maxd said:
Like I said man, all kudos to you for your patience and diligence and all the rest of it but _if_ you're doing with a "no pay" situation ... doing a PAB sooner than later would have been the wiser move, IMHO.
Click to expand...



totally Agree with Max here, it would have held more wieght coming from Max as he represents casinomeister the online casino watchdog, you can bet your bottoom dollar Hereo's know about this site and the ears and eyes would have pricked up when they seen an email from Max, he would have then either gotten your money or he would see the indicators that they are giving you the run around, he would have taken the next step and sent them to rogue hell.

Seriously mate, other people have deposited at this place and if Hereo's are playing this game they should have been outed long ago and maybe people wouldn't have despoited there.

IMO

P.S- hope your taking care of yourself WB :thumbsup:
 
Going over WB's PAB, he's being accused of "advantage Play".

Unfortunately many operators confuse "card counting" or advantage play as cheating. I've heard the tiresome mantra "If the player was caught card counting in Vegas, he'd be thrown out and his winnings confiscated." Well this may be true in a bad Hollywood film (and I think they did this in Rainman), but advantage play is legal.

Unless of course a device is used:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Advantage play has been upheld by the Nevada State Supreme court as to being "not cheating" - that was a few years ago. In fact, if you are a known card counter, I don't believe that the Las Vegas casinos can keep you out legally. It's a public place and card counting does not break any laws.

Just a preemptive FYI
 
As readers will no doubt gather from B's post Westland has filed his PAB. It was submitted to Heroes the same day.
 
Casinomeister said:
Going over WB's PAB, he's being accused of "advantage Play".

Unfortunately many operators confuse "card counting" or advantage play as cheating. I've heard the tiresome mantra "If the player was caught card counting in Vegas, he'd be thrown out and his winnings confiscated." Well this may be true in a bad Hollywood film (and I think they did this in Rainman), but advantage play is legal.

Unless of course a device is used:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Advantage play has been upheld by the Nevada State Supreme court as to being "not cheating" - that was a few years ago. In fact, if you are a known card counter, I don't believe that the Las Vegas casinos can keep you out legally. It's a public place and card counting does not break any laws.

Just a preemptive FYI
Click to expand...
Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss:rolleyes:) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though, www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB
 
Last edited:
An excerpt of Joe Pane's July 2008 interview with LV attorney Bob Nersesian in BJI. There was also a podcast on Pane's Holdem Radio show but I can not get it to work on my end.

What is the difference between being backed-off and being trespassed?

Being told to leave and never come back is a trespass. Anything less is being backed off.

If you are leaving the casino and the security guards are reading you the trespass act, but you neither respond to any of their question or sign any document in regards to this trespass reading, are you legally trespassed off the property, or must you have signed the form to acknowledge their intentions.

Youre legally trespassed if there is such a thing. I am currently challenging the trespass law in reference to APs. Ken Uston did this years ago in Atlantic City. Although a local federal court has ruled on the issue, and the Atlantic City case was not adopted, the Nevada Supreme Court has never answered the question of whether a casino can trespass a non-disruptive guest and bar them from playing legally.

The argument, briefly, is that a Nevada statute requires that casinos remain open to the general public, and that access to gaming remains open to the general public. The statute contains an exception providing that casinos can exclude patrons for any common law reason. The Nevada trespass statute is a statutory reason, not a common law reason, and therefore would be trumped by the statute mandating access. The question is then whether at common law a place of public amusement could exclude any one for any reason, or whether there is a conditionally revocable license requiring cause. New Jersey found the conditionally revocable license. Other states are split, and as mentioned, Nevada has never answered the question.

If you are 86th from a casino and 6 months later that same casino is sold to another individual or corporation are you still not allowed back on property?

It depends. If the same corporation owns the casino and only the stock was transferred to the new owner, then no. This is also contingent on the issue in the preceding question.

I have been told that if you are just verbally read the trespass act and do not sign off on it that it is only valid for 6 months. Is this true, or just another advantage player false rumor?

Just an AP false rumor.

If you are trespassed, what should you do?

Dont go back. Or, pay me $20,000.00 to bring the challenge talked about a moment ago.
 
NASHVEGAS said:
Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss:rolleyes:) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though, www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB
Click to expand...
Ah, you're right. It's Atlantic City that is considered "public" property. :p

By the way, here's an article that refers to a number of pertinent documents. :D
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
NASHVEGAS said:
Maybe you are confusing A.C. with Nevada where the "trespass law" still exists afaik but I will confirm asap....Bob N. recently has challenged the trespass law without sucess last I heard. Will post an excerpt from BJI.......essentially a Nevada casino can ask you to leave because they do not like the color of your hat, (they prefer to fabricate a false accusation though like I beat up the female pit boss:rolleyes:) , but they can not cuff and/or backroom you LEGALLY, they still do though,www.thebeargrowls.com.....BRB
Click to expand...
From CM's link:

"In fact, Las Vegas lawyers claim that casinos have been using intimidation and excessive force more frequently, which has led to other settlements and reversals of convictions for charges cooked up by casino personnel. A clear message is being sent by the courts that the right to exclude does not allow abuse, which is a violation of an individuals rights."

Moral: stop beating those female pit bosses up,LOL!!

SIDENOTE:When lawyer's claimed, which they did before the surveillance tapes finally could be supoenaed pursuant to an early 2000's ruling by the Nevada Supreme Court iirc, I am not sure a casino patron ever won a case as a Plaintiff. Since the above mentioned NSC ruling, I am not aware of any casino patron having lost a casino patron abuse case as a Plaintiff. Of course, most cases are settled and never made public. Then there is Sheldon.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
Casinomeister said:
Going over WB's PAB, he's being accused of "advantage Play".

Unfortunately many operators confuse "card counting" or advantage play as cheating. I've heard the tiresome mantra "If the player was caught card counting in Vegas, he'd be thrown out and his winnings confiscated." Well this may be true in a bad Hollywood film (and I think they did this in Rainman), but advantage play is legal.

Unless of course a device is used:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


Advantage play has been upheld by the Nevada State Supreme court as to being "not cheating" - that was a few years ago. In fact, if you are a known card counter, I don't believe that the Las Vegas casinos can keep you out legally. It's a public place and card counting does not break any laws.

Just a preemptive FYI
Click to expand...
Advantage play is only possible if either
the deck is not shuffled before each hand (card counting), or
the rules are very generous (basic strategy), or
you play with bonuses (bonus hunting), or
the software is not fair and has an exploitable flaw.

I have not been able to find the rules of blackjack on heroescasino.com, but it is very rare to find blackjack with a possible player advantage online. Furthermore, exploiting such an advantage would only give the player a slight edge over the casino, which would not result in the quick profit achieved by WB. Assuming that the software is fair, the deck is shuffled before every hand and the rules are not too generous, there is simply no advantage play, all the optimal strategy can achieve is the smallest possible disadvantage. From what I read elsewhere, WB did not take a bonus, he was using a betting system, and he was merely lucky. Assuming the rules of blackjack are like at most online casinos, the casino's claim of "advantage play" means that the software is not fair.
 
"Advantage play" only allows a player to MINIMIZE the advantage the casino has. If it is anything else, it is because the casino failed to to its homework before offering a bonus on certain terms.

OP got lucky. VERY lucky. No physic bots, no card counter (impossible for a shuffled after every hand deck(s)).

Time to pay up.

But, if they feel OP is not a profitable customer, close his account AFTER paying him his winnings. If they were a smart casino, they would treat him like gold until he lost all or most of it back.
 
FWIW, we've heard back from the casino and there appear to be some seriously extenuating circumstances involved here. Everyone is going to have to be a little patient while we dig into this.
 
maxd said:
FWIW, we've heard back from the casino and there appear to be some seriously extenuating circumstances involved here. Everyone is going to have to be a little patient while we dig into this.
Click to expand...

"seriously extenuating", that does not sound good,,,can you at least give us a hint Max as to what context you are using the word "extenuating" :confused: Thanks
 

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