Forum ass-clowns and the definition of fraud

[questa]

the OP burned his chances with us because of his repeated Forum Rules violations regarding multiple accounts AND because he was previously found to be a fraudster

He defrauded a previous casino? Why was he not banned at the time?

 

[visaria]

Sounds like fraud and theft to me. Not talking about the OP, I'm talking about the casino. Why would you take in money via Moneybookers and then (sounds like they didn't actually even try) attempt to pay winnings to a bank account? Why not just pay it back to the Moneybookers account?

Very fishy.

Avoid casinosieger at all costs.

 

[maxd]

I am not assuming anything, I have based what I have said here on the OP's original first post. ... It just does not stack up.

Again with "OP said" stuff. THE OP IS A FRAUDSTER!!! WTF cares what he says why would anyone believe it anyway? Besides which -- as previously mentioned -- there's more to this than you can or will know. There were multiple depositing accounts involved, etc etc. If you want to have access to such details so you can speak from an informed position as opposed to guesses and fraudster info that you've been using so far then either send your resume to Bryan and suggest he fire me and hire you OR start your own complaints service and fill your boots. The point is that there is lots of PAB info that has not nor will it ever be shared, it's not the function of the PAB process to gather your opinions, and it's not a committee process. Bryan has the case details, he looked at the case and dropped the axe on the OP (as would have I), and if you want to question his decisions then I suggest you PM him with same. BS speculations here on the forums regarding a case which you have no real information on is just that, BS. Enough already!

If the OP has submitted false identity documents, bogus bank details & tried to use casinomeister in order to get a payout previously through such practice & this was a clear repeated attempt then it is quite damning ....

So if he was a fraudster in some other way previously then we should entertain his claims to be innocent now? No, he's previously been nailed as a fraudster, he's broken a handful of Casinomeister Posting Rules -- repeatedly -- and been banned from the site for it. End of story. He's dead to us and so should he be. Again, start your own site and make the rules. Otherwise please respect ours.

He defrauded a previous casino? Why was he not banned at the time?

FFS! Read what has been posted! He was caught and he was banned. He re-registered, slipped under our radar and did his latest dirt here on the forums. This has all already been explained.

And you know what, this is getting really tiresome. I've explained our position as clearly and as best I can. Obviously some of you would rather not see the point of what's been said here. Obviously some of you disagree. Fair enough, but take it elsewhere (for the reasons previously given).

Thread closed. If anyone feels inclined to spin this off into a new thread be aware that doing so will be considered a Forum Rules violation -- cross-posting, personal agenda, PITA, etc -- and dealt with accordingly.

If you have something you think needs to be added here then contact me or Bryan and state your case.

 

[Casinomeister]

I think a number of people are getting some things confused here. When we are talking about "fraud" and that the OP is a "fraudster", this is what we (especially me) are defining:

Fraud - fraud is intentional deception made for personal gain or to damage another individual. That definition is good enough for me.

Let's focus on personal gain - he exploited this forum using it as a blackmailing device in order to make casinos kowtow to his needs. Damaging another person? Well, you can be assured that a forum that condones or turns a blind eye to this behavior will have its reputation damaged probably beyond repair. I have a zero tolerance towards fraud. You can split hairs on the term "fraud" and how it is defined until the cows come home. I really don't care - he is a liar and deceived every single member here. You lie to me - game over.

Steffigraff77 had a minimum of two other banned accounts in this forum. Mudnav and bash_2357. This is confirmed not only by matching IP addresses, but by matching email addresses and our vBulletin software that tracks cookies, (this is covered in our legal section and forum rules).

Mudnav was being accused of having multi casino accounts here, and I asked him whether or not he was "sharing" his computer with some one else - this was met with silence. I already knew that he was logging in the forum with another account (bash_2357) - another "member" who had issues being accused of being a "fraudster" at one time or another.

A few of you might remember that a few years ago this bash dude was the unlucky bloke who had his winnings removed from Neteller by the request of Prime Casino. Not that this had anything to do with multi-accounting (it was a non-fulfilled wagering requirement issue), but it set a pattern. That thread is here if you feel it necessary to waste some time. You can check out this guy's posting history and it's pretty much the same redundant stuff; getting stiffed by casinos, getting the runaround with ID docs, blah blah etc.

When we discovered that Mudnav and bash_2357 were one and the same, these two accounts were closed with the message to "contact me". Bash emailed me asking "why i have been banned from the CM website?" I told him that he was sharing his computer with another account, and that it was never cleared through us. He was using these accounts to complain about casinos and whatnot, and for us to allow these sort of bogus accounts to go unchecked dilutes the integrity of the site.

I never heard back from him again - that was December of 2008.

Fast forward a few months to May 2009 when Steffigraff77 signed up. I thought it was an odd user name for a guy, but different strokes for different folks I guess. His third post was a claim that his account was hacked:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/my-account-got-hijacked.32265/

Again, a pattern is set. Not that it had anything to do with multi-accounting, but he continued to post over the next few years the same redundant problematic casino issues as his former accounts. He survived undetected until now.

When this current issue popped up, I didn't think much of it until I reviewed his PAB (Max had already been dealing with it for a week or two). I noticed the email address that steffi used for the casino - it was the same that he used with his bash_2357 account. I immediately banned his account and shit-canned his PAB.

I couldn't care less whether or not this player was done wrong by the casino, or if the casino is in the right - whether or not he has provided faked ID docs, or if he is as legit as the Queen of England. I don't give a toss. What I know for a fact is that he lied to me - and that he violated the forum rules, and he has committed fraud against this forum.

I noticed that there is the usual "panties in a twist" at BB from the usual misanthropists. For the record, former member Kodi had no less than four accounts in this forum:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/

You can waste your time and read the rubbish that is produced from these accounts, and compare notes. Casino operators may want to take note as well. I for one have many better things to do. I'm sure you do too.

 

[vinylweatherman]

This has cleared things up.

Until now, the impression has been that the PAB went in favour of the casino. The OP has also been making this claim elsewhere (that Max found in favour of the casino), whereas it now seems that the PAB was halted due to serious violations of forum rules, and was not decided in favour of either party, meaning the casino wins by default. The OP is also claiming that it was the discovery of a couple of previous forum accounts that he had "hardly used" that had made all the difference.

The other problem is that the casino itself looks like a rogue that has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of both Max and CM.

This wasn't helped when the rep for "Grand Duke" butted in with this:-

KYC documents failed



The player failed to supply in due time the notary certified identification documents, the documents he delivered have failed the internal fraud scrutinity. The subject has also been discussed with Max and Bryan. Therefore we have decided to close the account of the player and refund his initial deposit.


Grand Duke Casino

This made me wonder why Grand Duke (a known rogue pit resident) had this level of detail for an issue involving Casinoseiger, a totally different casino based in a completely different jurisdiction.

If the two are related, then Casinoseiger is likely to be pulling the same stunts as Grand Duke. The rep never came back to answer the question as to why he was making the "official statement" on the issue of the OP failing KYC. It also places a question mark over the integrity of the evidence coming from the casino during the PAB.

This will be something to remember should a forum member not previously busted for fraud encounter the need to PAB against Casinoseiger.


As for the industry, it seems the notary system they rely on has been compromised in some way, even though this didn't get past casinoseiger. The OP has named the notary they used, and with this incident has demonstrated that at best notaries can be fooled, and this isn't just an issue for casinos, it's one of grave importance for many other industries where notaries are relied upon to verify documents related to very high value transactions. At worst, he has revealed a "bent" notary that other fraudsters may also be using.

The current weakness is that casinos tell players to find a notary, which could be anyone legally able to perform the task. Instead, the industry should consider drawing up a list of notaries that they have vetted, and are prepared to trust with regard to player KYC issues, and get players to select on from this list with the guarantee that the casino industry already has a working relationship with them, and that they know what is wanted by the industry when notarising a players' documents.

I have also discovered that in the UK, major branches of the post office can notarise documents, a service actually classed as "making a certified true copy" of an original document such as a passport or driving license. This is what most casinos are really after when they say "get it notarised", and the fee at the post office is a mere £7.15, not the £75 or £100+ that others are encountering when going to the legal firms for the service.

 

[topoor]

It was stated by Max that this player had committed fraud against the casino. I don't see any evidence of that. I also don't see any evidence of fake documents or a notary being fooled.

I trust this site, however I find it very disappointing to see the word fraudster bandied about for opening a second forum account. This is to my mind belittling to serious issues of fraud and effectively trivialising what is a crime.

It may be against forum rules and should be but call this fraud and you run the risk of turning this site into a laughing stock.

I've asked this question before and it wasn't answered and as a potential customer of casino seiger I would like it to be; what has the notary said?

 

[Nifty29]

Quote from Max:

Again with "OP said" stuff. THE OP IS A FRAUDSTER!!! WTF cares what he says why would anyone believe it anyway? Besides which -- as previously mentioned -- there's more to this than you can or will know. There were multiple depositing accounts involved, etc etc. If you want to have access to such details so you can speak from an informed position as opposed to guesses and fraudster info that you've been using so far then either send your resume to Bryan and suggest he fire me and hire you OR start your own complaints service and fill your boots. The point is that there is lots of PAB info that has not nor will it ever be shared, it's not the function of the PAB process to gather your opinions, and it's not a committee process.
Bryan has the case details, he looked at the case and dropped the axe on the OP (as would have I), and if you want to question his decisions then I suggest you PM him with same. BS speculations here on the forums regarding a case which you have no real information on is just that, BS. Enough already

@topoor and VWM

Which parts of this paragraph...in particular the bolded parts...are you having trouble reading and comprehending?

NEITHER of you KNOW ALL THE FACTS. You're both happy to accept everything the OP says as gospel, but you don't seem to trust a word Max or Bryan says. Do you think they came down in the last shower???

FFS people. If you aren't prepared to take the word of Max and Bryan who have SEEN ALL THE EVIDENCE, then WTF are you DOING HERE at CM???

Total BS assumptions like in the last few posts just give the usual fraudster-defenders more fuel to sprout their "all casinos are evil" nonsense. (I say "fraudster-defenders" because it is almost always the same members who cry foul when a fraudster gets caught out....makes you wonder why doesn't it?).

I now see the reason why Max closed the thread initially.

VWM - you should know better. When are you going to accept that you DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING?

 

[topoor]

All of it Nifty. Has the notary been contacted?

 

[questa]

The problem is, none of this answers the question of whether the casino is trustworthy - did they rob a player because they didn't want to pay, or did they have genuine reasons. It's a shame the PAB wasn't followed through fully, as now we cannot really know the answer. Anyone googling them will come here and avoid the casino, so in the end everyone is a loser here - the player, the casino, the community.

 

[Nifty29]

All of it Nifty. Has the notary been contacted?

Since your comprehension skills are, by your own admission, poor....here is a clue:

I couldn't care less whether or not this player was done wrong by the casino, or if the casino is in the right - whether or not he has provided faked ID docs, or if he is as legit as the Queen of England. I don't give a toss. What I know for a fact is that he lied to me - and that he violated the forum rules, and he has committed fraud against this forum.

A quote from CM himself.

The OP might be totally innocent. Judging by his past, I would say he most like is NOT....but hey I don't have ALL the facts.

Bottom line...the OP gave up his right to a PAB when it was discovered he is a FRAUDSTER. What he does now....well I don't give a rat's arse and I'm sure a lot of others don't either.

If you want to contact him and take up his cause...go for it Perry Mason. NO evidence gathered during the PAB process is going to be shared with YOU or anyone else, so get over it.

Why don't YOU contact the notary Oh, and BTW, if the OP had multiple accounts etc or other information that didn't match, or matched other accounts, all the notaries in the World won't help him. If you have 5 accounts, and can prove one of them, it doesn't mean you get paid LOL.

 

[questa]

This has cleared things up.

Until now, the impression has been that the PAB went in favour of the casino. The OP has also been making this claim elsewhere (that Max found in favour of the casino), whereas it now seems that the PAB was halted due to serious violations of forum rules, and was not decided in favour of either party, meaning the casino wins by default. The OP is also claiming that it was the discovery of a couple of previous forum accounts that he had "hardly used" that had made all the difference.

The other problem is that the casino itself looks like a rogue that has managed to pull the wool over the eyes of both Max and CM.

This wasn't helped when the rep for "Grand Duke" butted in with this:-




This made me wonder why Grand Duke (a known rogue pit resident) had this level of detail for an issue involving Casinoseiger, a totally different casino based in a completely different jurisdiction.

If the two are related, then Casinoseiger is likely to be pulling the same stunts as Grand Duke. The rep never came back to answer the question as to why he was making the "official statement" on the issue of the OP failing KYC. It also places a question mark over the integrity of the evidence coming from the casino during the PAB.

This will be something to remember should a forum member not previously busted for fraud encounter the need to PAB against Casinoseiger.


As for the industry, it seems the notary system they rely on has been compromised in some way, even though this didn't get past casinoseiger. The OP has named the notary they used, and with this incident has demonstrated that at best notaries can be fooled, and this isn't just an issue for casinos, it's one of grave importance for many other industries where notaries are relied upon to verify documents related to very high value transactions. At worst, he has revealed a "bent" notary that other fraudsters may also be using.

The current weakness is that casinos tell players to find a notary, which could be anyone legally able to perform the task. Instead, the industry should consider drawing up a list of notaries that they have vetted, and are prepared to trust with regard to player KYC issues, and get players to select on from this list with the guarantee that the casino industry already has a working relationship with them, and that they know what is wanted by the industry when notarising a players' documents.

I have also discovered that in the UK, major branches of the post office can notarise documents, a service actually classed as "making a certified true copy" of an original document such as a passport or driving license. This is what most casinos are really after when they say "get it notarised", and the fee at the post office is a mere £7.15, not the £75 or £100+ that others are encountering when going to the legal firms for the service.

My understanding is that casinosieger is run by an ex-employee of grand duke with a list of their players. This if true should be a big red flag, and maybe even reason for them to be rogued at the outset?

 

[topoor]

Since your comprehension skills are, by your own admission, poor....here is a clue:

I couldn't care less whether or not this player was done wrong by the casino, or if the casino is in the right - whether or not he has provided faked ID docs, or if he is as legit as the Queen of England. I don't give a toss. What I know for a fact is that he lied to me - and that he violated the forum rules, and he has committed fraud against this forum.

A quote from CM himself.

The OP might be totally innocent. Judging by his past, I would say he most like is NOT....but hey I don't have ALL the facts.

Bottom line...the OP gave up his right to a PAB when it was discovered he is a FRAUDSTER. What he does now....well I don't give a rat's arse and I'm sure a lot of others don't either.

If you want to contact him and take up his cause...go for it Perry Mason. NO evidence gathered during the PAB process is going to be shared with YOU or anyone else, so get over it.

Why don't YOU contact the notary Oh, and BTW, if the OP had multiple accounts etc or other information that didn't match, or matched other accounts, all the notaries in the World won't help him. If you have 5 accounts, and can prove one of them, it doesn't mean you get paid LOL.

Please don't insult me again. There is no admission that my skills are poor. Are you gay? Your forum name means fag which is another word for homosexual. Not nice to play on names is it.

The notary is registered with The Law Society and register of notaries if they are fake it is a very serious issue. This issue has gone beyond the PAB.

It is also important to ascertain the validity of the casinos claims for all players. Cm does not like tolerate fraud from players or casino.

 

[Nifty29]

Please don't insult me again. There is no admission that my skills are poor. Are you gay? Your forum name means fag which is another word for homosexual. Not nice to play on names is it.

The notary is registered with The Law Society and register of notaries if they are fake it is a very serious issue. This issue has gone beyond the PAB.

It is also important to ascertain the validity of the casinos claims for all players. Cm does not like tolerate fraud from players or casino.

I said:

Which parts of this paragraph...in particular the bolded parts...are you having trouble reading and comprehending?

You replied:

All of it Nifty.

Sorry, but you DID admit you're having trouble reading and comprehending.


What makes you think being called "Gay" would be an insult? Sorry, but I don't have time for Homophobes...especially childish ones.

 

[topoor]

Having trouble comprehending doesn't mean I can't read. It means I find it difficult to understand what I'm reading because it doesn't make sense. A bit like your posts.

So I'm a child and a homophobe now? Well done.

I didn't say being gay was an insult. Seems like your comprehension could do with some help if anyone's could.

 

[The Viking]

Please don't insult me again. There is no admission that my skills are poor. Are you gay? Your forum name means fag which is another word for homosexual. Not nice to play on names is it..

Like Nifty said why is a gay name an insult, im not gay but i read thos lines as a racism remarks.

 

[topoor]

Hmmmm. Racist now?

I asked if he was gay because his name means homosexual. Are you Danish? Is that racist?

 

[Nifty29]

Having trouble comprehending doesn't mean I can't read. It means I find it difficult to understand what I'm reading because it doesn't make sense. A bit like your posts.

So I'm a child and a homophobe now? Well done.

I didn't say being gay was an insult. Seems like your comprehension could do with some help if anyone's could.

No.

Anyone would point out that someone's username means "fag" in some language and then mention that it means "Gay" and ask, as a result, if that person was Gay. It's a perfectly normal response from a non-homophobic person.

You absolutely were attempting to insult me by suggesting I am Gay. At least stand by your words and don't try and worm your way out of it....it was what it was.

Anyhow, I am not derailing any more.

This is me placing you on "Ignore":

...

P.S.

I said NOTHING about topoors username? WTH? Where did I even mention it?

I said their comprehension/reading was POOR because I asked if what they didn't read and comprehend and they said "All of it".

Just wanted to clear that up...so there was NO need to make remarks about my name.

 

[topoor]

There are a lot easier and clearer ways to insult you Nifty given the abuse you've laid down to people on this forum without resorting to homophobia.

I didn't like the way you tried to use my name against me and I picked an obvious play on your name to show you that. I apologise to the forum if it came across as offensive however the point was not to negatively describe homosexuals but to point point out that I shouldn't be speculating on anything by someone's name.

 

[topoor]

"I said NOTHING about topoors username? WTH? Where did I even mention it?

I said their comprehension/reading was POOR because I asked if what they didn't read and comprehend and they said "All of it".

Just wanted to clear that up...so there was NO need to make remarks about my name."

Now who is attempting to worm out of something?

 

[Jufo]

After reading all the material presented by Bryan it's still debatable to me whether the OP fits the definition of a fraudster. Apart from a shared IP issue five years ago most of the OPs history seems to relate to casinos ripping him off one way or another. To me his history looks like the one of an unlucky advantage player, not really that of a fraudster. I hope people are still able to make a clear distinction between these two. He has also used the current forum handle for the last four years so the claim that he creates new forum accounts on the fly to push his agenda doesn't seem accurate either.

But even if we agree that yes, the OP is a fraudster, some undeserved, libelous claims have been made here towards the legiticimaty of a third, completely innocent party - the notary whose services this person used. It is now looking like the notary indeed is a legitimate, publicly listed one and the notarized documents are authentic. It seems that no action was made by maxd or Casino Sieger to actually verify the authenticity of this notary, but rather claim that the notary seal must be fake. If I happened to be this notary, I would consider such statements questioning my expertise rather libelous.

I completely agree that if the OP is found to have a suspicious past then CM has every right to flat out reject his PAB application. But making accusations that the notary seal is not authentic without even making any effort to verify this claim is out of order. Also, rejected PAB application doesn't mean that the casino has won the case - it's still open - so perhaps Bryan or maxd should inform Casinosieger that they shouldn't be making statements like "CM found the case in our favour".

 

[visaria]

What is fraud to the reasonable man? Is it:

A) Having two chat forum accounts

B) a casino refusing to pay out to a winning punter

Pretty obvious surely.

 

[Nifty29]

What is fraud to the reasonable man? Is it:

A) Having two chat forum accounts

B) a casino refusing to pay out to a winning punter

Pretty obvious surely.

A) If it's deliberate...and this was and it was more than two...then it is deception = fraud

B) If the player concerned cannot verify their identity properly, or they have multiple accounts...then it is deception = fraud.


You're totally ignoring any and all FACTS revealed by those who have actually SEEN the evidence, and making it a case of "the poor innocent player being ripped off by the big bad casino".

Who knows? Maybe the casino IS dodgy....but NOTHING presented here by those who KNOW the facts (I.e. nobody apart from Max and Bryan) suggests that the casino is denying winnings for no reason, nor that the player is innocent and has done nothing wrong.

Some of you seem/like to think that Max et al just take the casinos word for everything. Sorry folks, but they don't. Many times I have seen them reject "evidence" from operators due to them smelling BS and/or rogue behaviour. Still, that falls into the realm of FACTS, which some are ignoring because it interferes with their own agendas.

Jufo....have you seen the documents, identified the Notary, and contacted them? Sounds like you have. Perhaps you could share all the information you have that we don't.

At the end of the day, you can present fake ID to a Notary. Unless they are trained in all types of documentary fraud (and I know some and they are NOT), then they will not be able to spot them. The JPs over here (Notaries) and Commissioners for taking Affidavits that I know personally will ask when you present your documents "Are you this person" or "Is this a true copy" etc (depending on circumstances) and, if you answer yes, they stamp and certify your documents etc. They do not launch an investigation into their validity. So, a fraudster (like the OP perhaps) could have presented fake ID to the Notary and had it certified...they are certifying that the copy is identical to the original...that's all. If the casino finds discrepancies between the Notarized ID and the account information, then why would they pay?

I don't know the precise details....the above is just a possibility..and that's my point I.e. that NONE of us members KNOWS what went on. The reason we don't is because the OP is/was a proven FRAUDSTER here at CM over several years. People like this don't deserve to receive assistance IMO. I wouldn't pee on them if they were on fire. The OP has other complaint avenues to pursue....so lets see if they do it. My bet is that they won't bother, as they know they've been sprung....although I kinda hope they try their luck at the other site that allows ALL evidence to be aired in public.

 

[topoor]

I would suspect a notary whose job it is to certify documents would be better placed to identify fake documents they see in the flesh than a foreign casino that can only examine a scan.

FYI I've called the notary today and am currently waiting for a response although their office has confirmed to me that no one from casino seiger or casino meister has contacted them.

 

[Cleveland]

Fairly simple. The OP was banned for one reason or another from here. Game over. You don't then open up another account (which was also banned for one reason or another). Then we get here where a new account is opened up? You're breaking major forum rules, you were banned and keep sneaking back in without asking permission, so no any person with half a brain can't trust you.

The proper way to handle this if you were a person full of ethics, morals, or whatever, would have been to contact the site admin, and request a lift on the ban or permission to open a new account. Or open the new account and then shoot a message to the admin explaining yourself and requesting the account be allowed.

You don't get fired from work and create a new identity then say I'm a trust worthy employee. Clearly I can't trust you as you have been fired for one reason or another before, and you snuck in my back door three times.

Clearly the case couldn't move forward as the process has rules in place. They adhere to the rules to uphold the integrity of the process. Many criminals get away daily when people fail to follow the legal process that is written out clearly in black and white. News at 11. Time to move on imo.

 

[Nifty29]

Sorry Jufo. Another question.

Where does it state in this thread that the Notary seal is not genuine/faked/altered whatever?

Did the casino say that outright?

FYI, Max WAS just about to find in favour of the casino. Bryan discovered the existing fraudulent behaviour at the forum (SEVERAL accounts BTW not just one...whether he used one of them for a few years is immaterial), and cancelled the PAB altogether. So, your statement about the PAB not arriving at a conclusion is not entirely correct.

As I said, just because a document (or a copy thereof) is notarized doesn't mean it is 100% genuine, and does not mean that the person presenting them is the person described in the document without any doubt. Notaries don't have a squad of detectives and forensic experts to assess every document that they see.

You're also forgetting that there were other documents asked for by Max and the casino and the OP refused to provide them. Red flag right there.

Anyway, if you could provide all that extra evidence that you obviously have that would be awesome.